Being a Dad at Every Stage | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla and I am so

glad to be joined here by two folks who are part

of our Trinity family and we're going to be talking

about Father's Day together and specifically

about what it's like being a dad or being grandfather

and yeah how all of those bits of life connect

to our faith. So thank you so much for joining

me folks. You're welcome. Yeah, maybe we'll just

start with some introductions. You can say your

name and a little bit about your family. We'll

start over here. Okay. Well, my name is Ken and

I'm a retired police officer. I've been married

now for quite some time since 1978. I have two

wonderful children. I have four fantastic grandchildren

and I even had an opportunity to act as a foster

parent for some time. Okay, very cool. And over

here. Okay, I'm Bruce and I worked in the justice

system and I tried to retire and one day I will

be successful at it. Today is not that day? Today

is not that day and I also have two children.

I only have two grandchildren so far but we have,

oh can I say this? Yeah, I'm gonna say it anyways.

We have one on the way. Okay. I think everybody

knows and I think that's it. Okay. Great. Thank

you so much. So maybe we'll start by thinking

about, you know, what is one of the things that

surprised you the most or that was sort of unexpected

for you when you became a father or then later

when you became a grandfather? Yeah. What would

you say, Ken? For me, I would think it would

be just how wonderful each stage was as the children

and the grandchildren grow. And I didn't really

expect that. I certainly appreciated every phase.

And there's points when the children, especially

when they're little and they're toddlers and

they're so cute and you're thinking, I'd like

them not to grow to this. But then the next phase

comes along the next stage of development. And

there's just so much more you can do with them,

so much more you can interact. So I really didn't

anticipate that. But each each stage has a wonderful

gift and promise. And later on challenges. Sure.

That's totally fair. Yeah. Yeah. What about for

you, Bruce? For me, I never expected to be able

to love another human being so instantaneously

as when our children were born. It floored me

just how my heart was bursting with love for

this child who I met like a minute before. Sure.

And same with my grandchildren. It was like,

I remember, like, I don't take a good picture.

And I remember one of the best pictures ever

taken of me was the first time I held my granddaughter.

And you could just see how much I loved Evelyn

right from the start. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I'm going to just add on to what we said

that the very first time Melissa came home, my

oldest, and she was swaddled. And I was lying

on the couch and Pearl put her on my chest. Yeah.

And just the incredible emotional feeling. Sure.

This child is sleeping and totally unexpected.

Didn't expect to experience that at all. But

it was just a wonderful, wonderful experience.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something

that's like. Unique or at least different for

dads than for moms, right? Because mom has all

of this time You know if it's a biological child

like carrying this child like bonding with this

kid as they're sort of growing in them But then

yeah dads don't get quite that same thing, but

it's yeah to hear that like instant connection

Hold that kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah for sure

So what's something that you have learned as

a dad? Something that, you know, maybe before

you were like, oh, I don't know, or like you

just felt like this was sort of foreign. But

now you're like, ah, this is like what I've learned

as a as a dad. What would you sort of say? Want

to start us off? Yeah, I think for me, I learned

that you. Babies are born babies because you're

not ready for them to be toddlers and you're

not ready for them to be. you know teenagers

and and you are teaching your children as much

as you can but you're also learning sure how

to be a dad as it goes along sure um and about

being a grandfather i learned that there's a

reason you have children when you're young because

we spend the day with our grandchildren and like

laura and i come home and we are dead to the

world. Sure. And it's like, how do they do this

day in and day out? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We used

to do it day in and day out when we were young.

Sure. Not anymore. So we do it once a week. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. So those bits sort of go really well

with what Ken was saying earlier about the different

stages. Right. Like in each stage of your life,

in each stage of the kid's life, you're like.

ready for the next thing, even if it doesn't

feel like it yet. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And

like if I had to deal with some of the issues

we dealt with when they were teenagers, when

they were just born. Yeah. I would have messed

up terribly. Sure. But you sort of like you you

grow with them and you learn with them. And by

the time they're teenagers, you're ready for

it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say?

I think that. Maybe the most important lesson

I might have learned is the balance between authority

and influence. You want to guide your children

to grow and to be joyful, responsible adults.

And to do that at first when they're very young,

of course, you've got authority. But that has

to change. And you have to maintain... you have

to maintain an attitude that's going to develop

your ability to influence your child. So you've

got to develop, as time goes on, a relationship

that involves them understanding that you are

truly interested in their welfare. And that comes,

that's the influence portion. And other influences

are going to come into their lives that you can't

control. And so that I think it's really important

that you maintain as a father that that thought

that I have a certain level of authority, but

that has to drop and the level of influence I

have has to increase so that I can maintain that

proper relationship and hope to have good guidance.

I think one of the most important lessons from

the Bible is seeing how Jesus talks about. hypocrites.

And I think that how damaging if I behave hypocritical

behavior that can be to those relationships and

thus decrease the trust and the influence that

I can have in helping my children grow and my

grandchildren as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

And do you feel like like over time that that

those levels like change, like maybe when they're

young, it's more of an authority and less of

an influence. And then it like shifts over time

or does it? Absolutely. And it's and it's a constant

change. Sure. And certainly for me, it's not

perhaps as challenging. I don't think is it's

going to be for for current parents and certainly

for my children as parents, because. We didn't

have social media to influence the children the

same way. I mean, the internet was available,

but it wasn't available to the same extent. There

wasn't so much influence. So in order to maintain

my influence, I think that it's something that

is constantly under adjustment, but it's so important

to maintain that trust and to be just basically

forthright on us with your children. Avoid manipulation

whenever possible because people will detect

it. Yeah, and it's very damaging to relationships.

Yeah. Yeah for sure for sure. Yeah So, what would

you say is the best part about being a father

and or the best part about being a grandfather?

Yeah, you want to start us off there Bruce? Best

thing. Yeah, I'm going to start with grandfather.

Sure. Best part about being grandfather is that

you get to be with your grandkids. You get to

play with them. You get to spoil them. And then

when there's a dirty diaper, you get to pass

them off. Yes. Or if they're cranky or if they're

cranky, you get to pass them off. Sure. And you

don't have to worry about disciplining them.

That's not your job anymore. Yep. I think the

best part about being a parent, kind of building

on what Ken said with respect to the authority

influence is Transitioning making that transition

sure because we were exactly the same in that

like we were much stricter with our kids When

they were younger than when they were older But

I think we didn't have to be as strict with them

when they were older because they had learned

sure and making that transition and then coming

out at the end and being friends with your kids.

I think that's the ultimate is by the time they

are grown and married, you want to be friends

with them. Sure. So you want to go to the baseball

game with them. You want to be able to spend

time with them and just enjoy their company.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good

sort of for all of the parents right now who

feel really in the trenches of it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a good thing to look forward to. There's

light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. Yeah, for

sure. For sure. What about for you, Ken? Favorite

parts? I'm going to have to say almost ditto.

It's a wonderful thing to enjoy the grandchildren.

For example, yesterday we had all four grandchildren

over and mom and dad's got their date night.

Sure. But but. Having having them together watching

how they play together sure stuff. It is is a

delight and The thing is that because I am retired

and my wife was retired then also we Don't have

to rush the way we did with their children sure

so it's not When they're there, I it's not like

okay. I just finished work. I've got a rush get

dinner on the table I've got to do all these

things so yeah, so the The ability to schedule

yourself and to really enjoy quality time with

the grandchildren is there. Having said that,

I also, though, I think as much as I loved the

children when they were young, I still have a

very wonderful relationship with my children.

And we do spend time together. We go to activities

together. We spend vacations together. And even

my daughter even dropped in just to give me a

hug one day. It's just. There is no specific

special time, but it's just how healthy that

relationship is. It's wonderful. Yeah, yeah.

No, that's that's really sort of encouraging

to hear. OK, so then on the flip side of it,

what are some of the challenges that you've experienced

as parents and and what are some of the ways

that you think those challenges have helped to

shape your life or or your faith? Well, I'm going

to do. go away from my children to the person

we were trying to foster. Sure. And that person

had come from his relationship with his mother

was very broken. Sure. It was very toxic. And

and to see I think it's important lesson to learn

that undoing damage takes a lot more effort than

preventing it in the first place. Sure. And so

that there was not. In that particular relationship,

there was not trust. There was definitely a lot

of manipulation going on. And the relationship

was, whenever a conflict would come up, the conflict

resolution was establishing blame. It was not

about true resolution. And so I think that having

seen that and experienced that, it's really important

to... to prevention is so much easier than cure.

Sure. And so to deal with the very toxic relationship

where there isn't layers of trust, there isn't

levels of seeking. How do we fix this? Yeah.

It's how do we establish blame? That's really,

really, really difficult to overcome. And I sure.

And I cannot say that it's been successful to

overcome in that relationship at all. Sure. Which

is very unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's

really hard. Right. Because like. Yeah, especially

when I think you're caring for someone that like

you don't have that history with right that it's

really hard to sort of step in and be Be the

parent be the person that like can can really

rebuild what is already broken. Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately

I think it's also important to mention that if

you have those damage relationships the child

will extend those damaged relationships to other

people. Sure. And so the young man in this case

was involved in counseling. And when he was very

upset at his mother, that came out of the counselor.

Sure. And so that kind of thing was very damaging,

of course, for the relationship. How can the

counselor help him heal if what he's doing is

projecting his frustration and his anger at the

counselor? Again, I just can't stress how important

prevention is. Take the time. Make sure things

don't go sideways because once they've gone sideways,

it's a lot more effort to fix it. Sure, sure.

Yeah. And how would you say that like that experience

has like shaped your own life and faith in some

way? Well, I think it's certainly done a huge

amount for me to. To think about to think about

all my relationships not just those ones but

to think about all my relationships the importance

of Honesty the importance of integrity the importance

of vulnerability and being consistent and not

being hypocritical. Yeah To see those things

and of course, that's also my police experience

because I had to intervene in some very violent

very dysfunctional family situations sure and

so So there's just all of those factors that

that come in that that really I think all of

the ways that we're being taught in the Bible

how to have a good relationship Those things

they're timeless and they're absolutely true

and they are going to result in healthy relationships.

Okay. Yeah now Having said that I mean we don't

have to stick strictly to the law like in Deuteronomy

Which goes a little overboard in the disciplining,

but yeah, I think that just Generally speaking,

as we're looking at those relationships, the

importance of honesty, integrity, consistency

can't be overstated. Yeah, leading with those

values first and being like, OK, this is who

I am. This is how I want to be. And yeah, exactly.

Thank you for finishing. Yeah, for sure. What

about for you, Bruce? What would you say some

of the challenging moments have been? I think

for me, the biggest challenge is when for children

when your child is going through a struggle sure

and You want to do everything you can to fix

it. Yep, but you can't and That's part of their

growing up and that's part of their learning.

Yeah, and you can be there and you can support

them But you can't fix it. Yeah, and that's a

that's a real challenge. Mm -hmm And from a grandparent,

it's just learning that Your child is the parent,

so when you try to give your one -year -old grandson

ice cream and his mother says no, you have to

pay attention. Yes. That's an interesting dynamic

when the child becomes the parent. You just have

to respect boundaries. Sure. Yeah. I remember

when my aunt became a grandmother. I remember

her saying at one point she was like, yeah, our

kids have kids. And so now we've learned all

of the things that we apparently did wrong as

parents. Yeah, exactly. Right. But just different

moments, different times. Yeah. And it's interesting

because like parenting now is very different.

Sure. It's a whole different world. It's a different

way. And right from the very beginning. Yeah.

Like, what the heck is sleep training? You know,

we just put our kids to bed. Sure. But now they

now they're sleep training. And that's a that's

that's a new challenge because we have to understand

how things are done now. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And how would you say some of those challenges

have like shaped your life and faith? I threw

it all. I don't understand how. people who do

not have faith are able to cope with the challenges.

Sure. I think that's where there is so much family

dysfunction because we have such a phenomenal

example of what it means to be a father from

our faith in God. And I think we just, if you

don't have that, It must be it must be a real

challenge. And I have I just I'm so glad that

I have it. Sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And

I think that it goes back to sort of what what

you were saying there about, you know, that we

have this example, we have our faith that grounds

us and what you were saying, Ken, you know, about

like all of these values in scripture that like

faith that like shape us and help us to sort

of create functional families. And obviously,

that doesn't mean that it works all of the time.

There are lots of families of faith that are

also dysfunctional in different ways. Right.

But it gives us something to ground us. It gives

us something to to go back to, I think. Yeah.

And at least at least a model of what this should

look like. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

So how has being a dad influenced your faith

or changed sort of your understanding of of God?

Do you want to start us off again, Ken? I'm going

to defer to Bruce just for a minute, just as

I gather my thoughts. Sure, yeah, yeah. For sure.

And I was going to defer to Ken if you asked

me. OK. OK, so I'll be on the hot seat. Yeah,

are there any? Yeah. You know, kids disappoint

you. Yep. And when our kids disappoint us, we

don't always react really well. Sure. But we

have to realize that we disappoint God. Well,

I was speaking personally, probably on a daily

basis. Sure. And yet God has this infinite forgiveness

and His infinite grace that He bestows on us.

Being a parent and feeling that disappointment

sometimes, it just kind of like instills how

great a gift God's grace and forgiveness is.

Sure. I don't think I have anything else to say.

No, no, no. Yeah, I think that's really profound,

right? So you sort of said before, you know,

we have this example of God as Father, God as

parent that we sort of emulate, but then that

also means that like, yeah, that God experiences,

we experience the thing God, God experiences

and God's response to that, obviously, because

God is God, is so much greater and more perfect

and whole and loving. But it's yeah, it just

puts our responses sort of into perspective.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that if if we could

all respond the way God responds to these things.

Wow, yeah, it'd be amazing to see what the world

would be like. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah for sure for

sure. Yeah Thanks for giving me a minute there

Bruce, I think that One of the things that we

are built by God to want a relationship with

God and if we don't have that then we have unrealistic

expectations Most likely of the people closest

to us. Sure. I have heard how many times going

to to weddings about how my spouse is supposed

to complete me. Sure. Totally unrealistic expectation

in my personal view. And I certainly would suggest

in my professional career and dealing with some

very disturbing situations that people have had

very unrealistic expectations of spouses and

children or parents. And and I will actually

say that I heard a mother once say that a child

should worship me only next to Jesus. I don't

think that's a healthy relationship. I don't

think that we can have. I think that we're destined

to have or more likely to have unhealthy relationships

when we don't have realistic expectations. And

so if we expect other people to fulfill that

longing that we have for relationship with with

Jesus, we are going to put. far too many demands

on other people and expect them to fulfill us.

Or we're going to then, in that we're going to

expect our careers perhaps. Or we're going to

expect something else to give us that fulfillment

that we know we're missing, that relationship

that we know should be there. And so then we

start expecting that if I dedicate myself far

too much to my career. then of course that damages

the family. If I dedicate myself far too much

to accumulating wealth, that's going to damage

my important relationships. So I'm not sure if

that answers the question, but I think it's an

important point to bring out. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, for sure. And I think that sometimes. Yeah,

so if we if we think of it as like we all have

this like longing inside of us for something

more for relationship. And as Christians, we

know that that's a longing for God. Right. But

I think sometimes people will be like, oh, if

I become a parent, that will fulfill that longing.

Or sometimes kids are like, oh, no, my parent

is supposed to fulfill that longing. Right. And

yeah, I think you're right. They're like, if

we put too much pressure on on one particular

relationship, it it leads to that disappointment.

Um, yeah, and so needing to sort of go back to

God and be like, this is, this is really where,

where we get that, that all that we need. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Um, okay. So as you think about,

um, you know, your experience, your life as,

as dads, as, as grandfathers, um, what is one

piece of advice that you might need to have to

offer, uh, to other dads or to other grand dads?

I'm gonna start us off again, Bruce. Sure. Don't

be afraid to allow your children to experience

disappointment at a young age. Okay. I think

Mick Jagger said it best, you can't always get

what you want. Sure. And that's something that

I think is really important. We live in a very

commercial society. Yep. If kids don't learn

that they don't always get what they want, I

think that in the years in the future, that can

cause them problems that are unforeseen. And

so, yeah, disappointment is not a bad thing at

a young age. In fact, I think it's good for children

to learn disappointment. Sure. That's one thing

and I guess my the biggest thing is Your kids

are gonna disappoint you. Yep Take a beat count

to ten. Yeah Don't overreact sure Because an

overreaction is probably going to be much worse

than not reacting sure Yeah, makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that like the first bit that you

were saying there about, you know, allowing kids

to experience disappointment, I think is so important,

but like so counter instinctual, I think. Yeah.

Right. Absolutely. Because you start off by saying,

I looked at this kid and I love them. Yeah, absolutely.

My whole being. Right. So why would I want them

to be sad? You want your kids to be happy all

the time. Yeah. But I think that when they grow

up, that's an unrealistic. Sure. You know, God

never promised us a rose garden. There's going

to be challenges. There's going to be things

that go wrong. Yeah. And if they learn from a

young age that things don't always go their way.

Right. I think that's a very valuable lesson

to learn. Sure. And not even just like that things

don't always go their way, but like then how

to cope with that. Exactly. Right. It's not just

learning that sometimes life sucks because we're

all just going to learn that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But learning, OK, when things fall apart, how

do I build resilience? How do I respond? How

do I care for myself and others in that space?

Yeah. And resilience. Kids are resilient. We

get much less resilient as we get older. Sure.

So at a young age, that resilience is almost

built into them and it's easy to teach them that.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say, Ken?

Well, first of all, I agree totally with what

Ruth just said. And that when I was actually

involved as an umpire. Yeah in in t ball. Yes,

um one coach got really upset with me when when

a child got out at second Sure, and I said, I

don't care if you leave them in I don't care

if you want them if you want them to keep running

the bases I don't care. It's it's not important,

but I think um children need to learn In those

kind of situations that it is possible to fail

sure and that there is times when things aren't

going to go exactly right and and to learn in

that situation rather than perhaps later in life

when the first time you're the first time that

you're going to fail is not getting the job that

you interviewed for. That's going to be devastating.

Sure. And so I totally agree with what you said,

but also on another point, I think I can't possibly

underestimate what's the influence that the Internet

is providing on children. Sure. And I think I

probably didn't keep myself as aware as I should

have. in regards to my children so their exposure

what they could find on the internet and how

to get around things and knowing that and also

I participated a bit in as a facilitator in a

parenting teens and tweens course at a previous

church and some of the horror stories that I

heard about what was happening sure from teachers

that were there present what was happening in

the schoolyard when parents gave their child

a phone and then without any limits on it sure

and so what they were able to to bring up on

their phone so there is we can't be blind to

that and I could be to some extent because of

the time that I was a parent sure but that can't

happen anymore people and so I really do support

any legislation that's coming up to to somewhat

restrict what's available but I I really think

is an important lesson to other parents you've

got Gotta keep an eye on what's happening and

control it and be diligent about it. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think an important sort of

reminder for all of us to be like praying for

and supporting parents because there are all

of these things that are coming up that like,

yeah, just a whole new world, a whole new sort

of set of issues to sort of think through. It's

complicated. It sure is. Do we have time for

me to add one more thing? Of course. Yeah. find

somebody who can have those conversations with

your kids that you may be not able to. Shocker,

there are conversations that parents shouldn't

have with their kids. Sure, or that the kids

will just never want to have with their parents.

Or the kids will never want to have with their

parents. And I was one of those people who, because

I was a volunteer youth leader, parents would

come to me and they'd say, what can we do about

this? And I'd say, leave it with me. And because

of my relationship, I was able to have those

conversations with the kids that the parents

couldn't. And I think parents need to have those

resources available to them. And that probably

goes to the last question too. How can you help

a dad? It's like... Yeah, be that resource to

be the person who can have those conversations

with the child or with the children or the youth

or what have you. Yeah. Because really, kids

will listen to somebody who isn't their parent

much more than they will listen to their parent.

Yep, for sure. For sure, for sure, yeah. Yeah,

so then, yeah, so this being a support, being

the sort of secondary person who supports people's

kids, praying for them. What are some other things

that people can do to sort of help support and

care for dads in the world today? Okay, I'm gonna

go to the granddad. Yeah, sure. And to some extent,

grandmoms. Sure. It's difficult sometimes for

parents. I've seen myself do it. I've seen my

children do it in that we can't Once you're a

parent, you can't turn it off. Yeah, and so you

can't stop the caring and so It's going to come

out maybe at inappropriate times that I'm trying

to influence my child or or or help them sure

and but it's coming from an area of That's what

I've been doing for 30, 40, 50 years, whatever

the case may be. And it just can't, I just can't

turn it off. I can't, I'm not going to turn off

the carrying. I'm not going to turn off the loading.

I'm not going to turn off. I just, it's not built

in me to throw that switch. And so there are

good ways to handle it, but understand that that's

going to happen with just about every parent

and grandparent. It's going to happen. Be prepared

for it. Extending some patience and grace. Yeah,

it's just impossible to turn off. So there are

some things that we're maybe going to offer advice

on that we shouldn't. Sure. But we can't help

it. Sure. So be patient with us and show us some

grace. Yeah. Anything else you would add, Bruce?

Yeah, no, I think praying for parents. Yeah.

And praying for the relationship of the parents.

Being a parent is not the easiest thing and it's

a challenge and it can cause stress. Sure. And

so pray for the parents, pray for the children,

pray for the parents' relationship. Yeah. I think

that those are all things that are desperately

needed. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I just thought

of one other thing that might be appropriate

for some people is accountability partners. Sure.

There are things that you can't necessarily discuss

with your spouse or with your children about

how you're parenting, but you can certainly find

somebody of your faith that that you can trust,

that you can rely on, and it's going to give

you honest feedback. Yeah. And so if I'm trying

to improve how I'm doing at something, perhaps

I've been too short tempered with a child or

something like that. find somebody that you can

trust and speak to and hold you accountable and

in a very loving but honest way. Sure. And I

think that that's an important lesson that if

that resource is available, take advantage of

it. Sure. And offer yourself up that you could

be a you could be that that partner for somebody

else. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. No. Thank you so much,

guys. You're very welcome. I think this has been

a really helpful conversation. Yeah, just get

that insight into, you know, what is life like

for dads and granddads and what are some of the

challenges that you're facing, but also some

of the joys that come with just being part of

a family. And thank you for tuning in to this

week's episode of Trinity Talks. Whether you

are a granddad, dad, or a parent of another kind

or not a parent at all, I pray that you have

been encouraged in this conversation. and that

you are able to find ways to care for, to pray

for, to encourage and support kids and parents

that are in your life. And we'll see you again

next week.