When the Shame Won't Let You Stop Hiding

Hi, welcome to Crowd Church everyone. It's great to be back after a brief break

over the summer. I'm joined tonight by Dan. Say hi, Dan. You had a good summer?

Yes, a really good summer.

Awesome.

Yes, it's nice to be back, isn't it? It's like, yeah, oh yes, this feels like

first week of September.

Yeah, back to work, back to crowds, everything's back. Um, I hope everyone at

home's had a good summer as well, whatever you've been up to. And we're also

joined by Matt tonight.

Yes, we are.

Can't shake him off.

Try as you might, I'm still here.

Yeah, so we're— and Matt's had a good summer as well, haven't you? You've been

moving house.

Let's use the word good. Let's use the word good to describe it. We have, yes,

moved house.

It's been, uh, some of Matt's house is to his right.

Yes, you can't see it, but in the crowd studio, Matt's Stuff is everywhere.

They've like waiting to move in.

We've not moved in properly yet. So, uh, yes, we, uh, we do. Oh, I need to—

sorry, I need a central mic. There we go. Uh, yes, we do have, um, have a fair,

fair few boxes to the side, but hopefully we'll find a house soon.

Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. If only so we're not chopping— tripping over all of

your stuff for the next few months. Yeah, still be here at Christmas, guys.

Yeah.

Um, anyway, moving on from Matt's woes. No studio issues. No, it's fine. Um,

yeah, we're happy to be back, aren't we, after a bit of a—

Yeah, yeah.

A brief break over summer and feeling refreshed and raring to go. And tonight

Matt's going to be bringing us a word from Peter in a minute. But just to say

before we kick off, like, um, please do get involved if you're watching the live

stream tonight. Be posting your questions, your comments, your thoughts as

Matt's sharing, um, because we'll pick those up in Conversation Street at the

end and have a bit of a chat and unpack about it all. Is there anything else I

need to say, Dan, before we kick off?

Say hi to people in the comments if you like.

Oh yeah, we can say hi to people in the comments. He's— this was slick, wasn't

it? Just passing his phone over to me because I can't see them. Um, so tonight

we've got, we've got Alicia, we've got Talita, um, Katharine, we've got Lady

Birkby, and The Itchy Burrito 6379. That's, that's a, that probably wins the

prize, the best, like, this evening. So yeah, if you're there, um, say hi to us

and yeah, we'll pick up some comments shortly.

Definitely put your questions in.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, looking forward to the first talkback.

Did you just say looking forward to the Force?

I did, yes. What, are you watching Star Wars? Yeah, the first.

The Fourth be with you. Yeah, yeah, it's not even the fourth, is it? It's the

sixth.

It doesn't work.

Anyway, enough of this. Uh, we'll pass over to Matt.

Enough of this jibber jabber.

Yeah, enough of this jibber jabber. Let's pass over to Matt.

Thank you very much. Yeah, it's good to be back, everybody. Welcome back after

the summer break. Um, really, really, really good to be here. I just feel like

we've— it's been a bit of a— it's been 5 weeks, hasn't it? And so, um, warm

welcome to you if you're new here to Crowd. Um, my name is Matt, one of the team

along with Anna and Dan, who you've met. Um, and so yeah, today we're going to

be looking at a story that unfolds across all 4 Gospels. And, um, I say it like

that because there aren't that many stories that do unfold across all 4 Gospels

in as much detail as this one. It's a story about Peter. And this story starts,

uh, where Jesus and his disciples are eating together, uh, just before Jesus is

going to be arrested. And Jesus tells Peter that things are going to get bad. So

let's read some scripture. He says, uh, if my— there we go, my scripture thing

works. Uh, Peter said to him, Lord, I am ready to— oh, hang on, let me get on

the right slide. There we go. Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison And

to death. And Jesus said, I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day

until you deny 3 times that you know me, that you deny 3 times that you know me.

And Peter said to him, even if I must die with you, I will not deny you. And All

the disciples said the same thing. All of them said the same thing. There's some

pretty bold statements here, aren't there? You can hear both the desire and the

testosterone in their answer. Uh, it's very, very much, you know, male bravado,

isn't there? And there's surety in what they say. Well, Jesus is arrested in the

Garden of Gethsemane just a few hours later, and he's brought initially to a

high priest's house.

No.

a high priest's house. Say it properly. And whilst Jesus is being questioned

inside, Peter's story continues outside in a courtyard that is part of the high

priest's property. So he's got a property, and in that property is a courtyard.

Jesus is inside being questioned, and Peter is outside. Okay. And so now the

servants and officers had— let me put my glasses on. I can read what it says. So

now the servants and officers had made a charcoal fire because it was cold, and

they were standing and warming themselves. And Peter also was with them,

standing and warming himself. One of the servant girls of the high priest came,

and she looked at him and said, you also were with the Nazarene Jesus. But he

denied it. Peter denied it, saying, I neither know nor understand what you mean.

And after a little while, someone else saw him and said, You also are one of

them. And Peter said, Man, I am not! And after a little while, the bystanders

again said to Peter, Certainly you are one of them, for you are a Galilean. But

he began to invoke a curse on himself, to swear, I do not know this man of whom

you speak. And immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed. And

the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus,

before the rooster crows, you will deny me 3 times. And he went out and wept

bitterly. Wow. So, You all right?

Mm-hmm.

So Peter goes out, and this is sort of a mashup of the story across all the 4

Gospels. Okay, so if you're following along going, my mind doesn't quite say

that, across all the 4 Gospels, that's the mashup of this sort of incredibly sad

moment, especially for Peter. And I think it's a heartbreaking story that we

need to unpack. So we're going to go through it, and we're going to try and put

ourselves in the courtyard of that high priest's house. So we're in Jerusalem,

and it's spring, and it gets really cold at night. And John describes this

charcoal fire in the middle of a courtyard, and its coals are glowing red hot,

and you can smell the charcoal. And Peter is stood there with the servants and

the guards, and he holds out his hands to the heat in the fire. And in Peter's

mind, I think he's He's kind of thinking, I shouldn't really be here, because an

hour before, Peter had swung his sword, right, at a man who came to arrest Jesus

and took off one of their ears. This was Peter's testosterone working. Even if

we die, I will do this, right? But 3 years, he'd— for 3 years, he'd followed

Jesus, hadn't he? He'd followed this man, really certain that Jesus was the

Messiah, the one sent by God to rule and to reign. And Peter thought he was on

the right side. But instead, Jesus tells him to put his sword away. He heals the

ear that Peter had just cut off, and then Jesus lets them tie his hands and lead

him into the dark without really lifting a finger. And it wasn't like Jesus had

not warned them that this was going to happen. Time and again, He told them what

was gonna happen, but it's a bit like Peter didn't really wanna accept it, that

he wanted the miracle-working Jesus, but not this, you know, not the confusion,

not really the suffering. This is not the Jesus Peter signed up for. And when

the man he'd built his life around turns out not to be the one he was kind of so

sure that he was, the certainty, I think, drains out of him. And what floods in

to take its place is confusion. and anger, and maybe fear. And now here he is,

stood in this courtyard, warming his hands against an enemy's fire, trying to

look like he belongs, wanting to see what happens with Jesus. And a servant girl

says, you were with him. And Peter hears his own voice. He says, woman, I do not

know him. And it's out of his mouth before maybe he even decided to say it, you

know. And the awful thing is how easy it was.

Yeah.

for Peter to say this. There's no torture. There's no threat. It's just a

servant girl by a fire. And the denial falls out of his mouth like it was

nothing. But something in him hardens as he says it, I think. And a little while

later, someone else comes along and says, you are one of them. And he goes, man,

I am not. And I think his heart hardens a little bit more. And then an hour

after that, an Another one comes, and this time they are sure because they can

hear it, that thick northern Galilean accent. You are a Galilean. You are

definitely one of them. And Peter, the same Peter who walked on water, who said,

I will lay down my life for you, starts to curse and he calls down oaths on

himself. I do not know. The man. And somewhere across the yard, a rooster crows,

and it announces the morning. And Jesus, being led from one hearing to the next,

bound and bleeding, turns His head, and He looks directly at Peter. Across that

whole courtyard, through the smoke and the guards, Jesus finds Peter's eyes, and

He holds them. And Peter knows in that one second that Jesus heard every single

word. He heard the first no. He heard the cursing, the oaths. He heard all of

it. And Peter turns, and he shoves his way out of the gate into the dark, and

the Bible said he wept bitterly. Now, I think a lot about this courtyard, and I

think a lot about that fire. I don't know if you have the same thing, but you

know, you, you, you can smell certain things, can't you? And that memory of that

smell will take you straight back into something. For me, it's chlorine at a

swimming pool. It takes me back to when I was a kid learning to swim and eating

barbecue hula hoops, uh, that my dad bought. So for Peter, it would be the smell

of the charcoal fire that every time he would smell that smoke, It would remind

him of his decision to deny Christ. We have a posh name for it now, 'cause we've

got a posh name for everything, haven't we? We call it the olfactory trigger.

The smell is the cue that triggers this moment for Peter in vivid detail. And

Peter is gonna smell a lot of charcoal fires, isn't he? When you think about it.

But as you would expect, as bad as Peter's denial was, It is not the end of the

story. So if we fast forward through the story, Jesus is crucified. He dies. He

is buried. And I can imagine, I guess, at this point, Peter's fear and confusion

only gets worse. But then Jesus is raised from the dead. And after that, we find

Peter. He's gone back to fishing because what else do you do when you've kind of

disqualified yourself and walked away? And he comes ashore one morning and finds

Jesus on the beach. cooking him breakfast. And I want you to see how, uh, John

describes this scene, okay? This is really important. Uh, he said, when they

landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fresh oil on it and some

bread. Now, why is this important? A fire of burning coals? Well, in Greek,

Burning coals is from the— forgive my rather bad Greek pronunciation— anthrakiai

is what I'm guessing. And that exact word, anthrakiai, means charcoal fire, and

it appears exactly twice in the New Testament in that exact form.

Wow.

It appears once here on the beach where Jesus is cooking breakfast, and once

before to describe the fire in the courtyard. Okay, so the one Peter warmed his

hands against while he denied ever knowing Jesus. It's the same word. So, the

same fire. Okay, it's John that records this, and I think he's doing so on

purpose because Jesus doesn't just restore Peter over a coffee somewhere

neutral. Jesus lights The exact same fire, the same smell, the same red-hot

glow. He walks Peter straight back into the sensory scene of the worst night of

his life. And there, at that fire, He cooks Peter breakfast, and He asks him 3

times, once for each denial, do you love Me? So, Jesus doesn't pretend the fire

never happened. But to restore Peter, he has to go back to it. He relights it

because the smell and the memory of the fire needs to also be restored into

something new. So, when I was a teenager, okay, I learned how to fry all kinds

of food working in my local chip shop. And when I say all kinds of food, I mean

all kinds of food. We fried Mars bars, Camemberts. We even did chips because,

you know, it's a chip shop. And because this was the 1980s, security was very,

very different back then. And so it was easy enough for me to add the cost of a

meal in my head, you know, when you had people ordering 5 or 6 meals. And so I

would add that in my head. I would open the till, I would take their money, I

would give them their correct change because it was all cash back then. They

would go away happy. But once they had left, I would put through the till. A

different amount, and I would pocket the difference, knowing it was wrong every

single time. It was a small family-owned chip shop, and they did not have a lot.

But here I was stealing from them. I didn't have a lot either. And you know

what? For the longest time, whenever I would go into a chip shop, that smell—I

would remember doing that—and it started a chain of events in me when I was a

teenager where I had no problem stealing from people. And it shaped me, and it

shaped my identity. For some reason, in my mind, I moved from doing a bad thing

to being a bad thing. I moved from stealing something to being a thief, and

shame grew. I was ashamed. And I think shame takes your worst moment, and it

holds it up, and it says, "There, that's that's the real." You. Everything else

is you kind of pretending. And if you're like me, you can carry that shame for a

long time. And so that's the difference, isn't it, between what shame does and

what Jesus does? Shame takes you back to the fire and rubs your face in it.

Jesus takes you to the fire and feeds you breakfast. Now, you have— you may have

had your own courtyard moments, your own fire. I don't know what it is. For some

of you, like Peter, you really knew him. You heard his voice, you walked with

him for years, and yet somewhere along the way, you started to deny him. Except

we have a much nicer word for it now. We call it deconstruction. But I wonder if

underneath, it's the same courtyard that Peter sat in. Maybe Jesus didn't turn

out to be the Jesus that you expected. Maybe something didn't add up. You know,

despite all the warnings in the New Testament that you read over the years about

how life with Christ is not going to be straightforward. Maybe the church hurt

you. Maybe an important prayer went unanswered. Maybe the world didn't get put

right the way you were sure that it would do. And like Peter, that

disillusionment calls out, I do not know him. And then you did the same thing

that Peter did. Your heart hardens. And you walk back to what you know. But the

thing I love about this story is that it flatly refuses to leave Peter by that

fire. Jesus came and found him on the beach, and He found him and redeemed him

by the fire. And that's my prayer for you, that Jesus would find you on your

beach the same way He found Peter. And notice what Jesus doesn't do on the

beach. He doesn't say, don't worry about it. He doesn't sort of wave it off. He

doesn't ignore it. He asks Peter 3 times, like I said, once for each denial, do

you love me? And he walks him back through that wound. He doesn't skip the

failure, but he heals it, every single one of them, from the inside, one layer

at a time. And then because Jesus has a very Well, he's got a very definitive

style, hasn't he, Jesus? He gives Peter a job, not a demotion, not a

probationary period. He says, feed my sheep. Look after my people. The man who

denied him becomes the man who leads the whole thing. Grace doesn't pardon

Jesus, or grace doesn't just pardon Peter. Grace promotes him. And Do you know

that the first job Jesus gave me when I became a Christian and He started to

restore me was as a treasurer looking after money for the Christian Union? How

crazy is that? The man who robbed money became the man who accounted for it.

It's like a reverse Judas, isn't it? But it's kind of grace in action. The other

thing I love about this is you've got to notice where Jesus meets Peter. It's

not in a temple. He meets him at work, right? On an ordinary Tuesday morning,

having caught nothing all night and in the middle of a failed fishing trip, um,

with the smell of charcoal already in the air. It's amazing. Now, if you're

sitting there tonight with a fire of your own, a moment you're sure defines you,

a smell maybe you can't shake, a verdict perhaps you've already accepted, I want

to tell you as plainly as I possibly can, Jesus already knows. He hears every

word. He was there in the courtyard. He is not standing at your fire to cancel

you. He's standing at it to cook you breakfast. So, can I encourage you? Name

your fire to God right now. Say the actual thing. Here is the moment, Lord, I'm

sure disqualifies me. Say it out loud if you feel comfortable, and then listen

for the question that Jesus asks, because He asked Peter at the fire, not, how

could you? Not, what's wrong with you? Just 3 simple words. Well, 4 simple

words. Do you love me? And that's where restoration starts, not with defending

yourself, not with trying to give excuses, but just coming to Him and declaring

you love him. Because the worst moment is, or the worst moment in your life is

not your final moment. It's not your truest moment. It's not what defines you

because there's a fire and there's breakfast on the beach. That's it. That's me.

That's back to you.

Amazing. Thanks for that, Matt. I think there's, yeah, a lot to unpack in that

actually. But also just beautifully simple as well, that whole analogy. I'm just

looking at the comments and what's come through, and, um, Alicia said, um,

that's such a beautiful contrast of those fire scenes, the denial and its

bitterness versus the warmth, um, of the Lord cooking breakfast. It sounds

divinely symmetrical this way and also lovingly merciful. I think, yeah, great

comment. But yeah, absolutely true, just like I love the way you captured, you

know, that you encapsulated that, Matt. Yeah. What are your thoughts, Dan?

It's brilliant. I'd never put the 2 3s together, you know, the denying 3 times.

I've always read the, um, on the beach and Jesus saying, you love me, think,

well, that was strange that he did that 3 times. Never put the 2 together. Yeah,

I love that. And the same word for the—

yeah, for the shark. Yeah, entire 2 Testaments. Yeah, it's the same. Brilliant.

Just— that's God, isn't it? I was just thinking about how God doesn't say, I'm

gonna set you free from something by just hiding it away or giving you a job

that doesn't involve you in that. That might, you know, that might be the case

for some things, but he sets us free by freeing us, and we can be in that same

situation and, and truly be freed. You know, I love—

Yeah.

Love God's freedom is It's true. Yeah, it's true freedom.

It's not sweep it under the carpet.

No, exactly. It's not hide it away. Yeah.

And it's not like cancel culture either. Like Matt said, it's, it's something

much more gracious and kind and kind of redemptive, really. Yeah. It's like,

let's be honest about, yeah, this situation. But then also he's so redemptive in

the middle of it. Yeah. His grace just comes around people. Yeah. But it's not

like pretend it's not happened.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And not let, not let shame come and we hide it away. I

don't want to talk about it. Yeah, but just, yes, yes, I was guilty. Yes,

there's a consequence, but here it is. God, you know, help me with this. Let's

not hide it away.

Well, one of the fascinating things about this story that I didn't really pick

up on was right at the start Jesus said You're going to deny me 3 times. It's

like, this is, this is quite an important bit, isn't it? It's like, you know,

when you— if you're anything like me, um, and I, I hope that you're not in many

ways, but it's that kind of thing. We mess up and we try and hide it like no one

has watched. And Adam did this first sin. It's like, let's go hide, right? It's

what we do. And it's like, yeah, but what are you hiding from?

Yeah.

An all-knowing God.

Oh, God.

Oh, God.

And I think for me, this makes it easier just to go in a bizarre way. When

Peter— Jesus saying that to Peter right at the start and predicting it, he knows

when so-and-so walked away or when this person did this. Or, Jeremy, and it's

like he knew that that was going to happen before you did it.

Yeah.

You still had the choice. It's not like God's making you do it, but he

understands how you're going to work and what you're going to do. But he redeems

you still. Do you mean he redeems you anyway?

And so it's kind of like that's I mean even knowing yeah he knows the end from

the beginning doesn't he still gives us tasks to do still loves us still says

I'm going to trust you with this knowing yeah when we're going to fail yeah

still says I'm going to trust you with it I mean that's perfect love isn't it

because He knows us and what we're like on our worst days, and he invests in us

and loves us and takes the time once to get to know us.

And like you say, involve us. Yeah. Anyway, like, yeah, it's mind-blowing,

really.

Yes. And can still give us, give us a promotion. Yeah. Doesn't say, well, I'm

gonna trust him with that again. Yeah. Yeah. He, he truly does forgive. Yeah.

And truly says Yeah, do you want— do you want to do this? Do you want another

chance? Okay.

But don't you think there's also something about that process where, because

Peter goes through that hard, like, facing his— he sort of faces his worst

moment, doesn't he? And he faces his failings as a man. And then Jesus goes on

and kind of— he becomes, you know, and kind of calls him to build the church.

Yeah. And like, he becomes quite a key person, and he, you know, continues to be

a key person, doesn't he? And in the sort of early church and, and does many

more things. And, um, don't you sort of think sometimes it's going through those

things and facing it?

Yeah.

But it's the growth that, that kind of— that accept— that acceptance, the love,

the, the restoration of Jesus, that, that kind of coming face to face with that.

Don't you think it— I think there's something about Peter where he's different

after that, like he encounters— yeah. the depth, the full depth of Jesus' love

for him, because he's screwed up royally. Yeah. And then he's still accepted.

Yeah. Forgiven and, yeah, um, believed in. And it, it changes him. Like, there's

a gear shift in Peter after that, I think. Yeah. And isn't that what coming face

to face with God's love does for all of us? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's—

And I think sort of on a parallel with that is we've, we've often talked about

it in Crowd, how when we suffer things in our own lives, God then uses that

knowledge of that suffering to help others that are in that same position. And

it's like, well, why did I go through that?

Yeah.

Don't know, but I can help that person now.

Yeah.

Because God taught me something in this that I can do. And it's that parallel

that he just doesn't leave anything to waste, does he?

No.

Even if it's, even if it's wrong. Like, you know, through the whole Bible,

through the Old Testament, all the messing up. David messed up so many times,

you know. But he doesn't— didn't write it off. He still built his, his people

and, and, you know, and the line of Judah and Jesus. And it all came still from

that, even through tumultuous, messed up times. Yeah.

Yeah. I think this is— I mean, we're in this series, aren't we? The sort of the

Jesus the Revolutionary series. And this is the revolutionary grace in action

that you see, isn't it? And I And, um, I'm going back to your point about cancel

culture, Anna. The, the, the other disciple that was in the courtyard with Peter

was John. Um, he just got— it's funny how John describes himself. He just calls

himself the other disciple.

Yeah.

Um, but he, he was in the courtyard with Peter. In fact, Peter couldn't first

get in. John had to have a word with one or two people so Peter could get in.

And he, and he— and John sees the denial. He was at the table where Jesus said,

you're going to deny me 3 times.

And all the members, that was not gonna happen, never. So Never.

And then, um, he of course does. And John sees this after John's managed to get

him into the courtyard, and he sees Peter run off. And, um, I think he, he was

at the beach when he sees Jesus say to— I'm really curious how John responded.

Yes.

Do you know what I mean? Like, going back to your point, like, how did he

resolve that in his own mind? Because we don't hear that John denied Peter.

John's telling us, uh, that John denied Jesus. We're hearing that Peter was the

one that denied, and John was the one looking after Mary. Yeah, right. Yeah. And

so, and yet Peter—

Peter gets the promotion.

Peter gets the one like, feed my sheep, right? Yeah. And so how is John

responding to this? And I'm, I'm genuinely curious. I, you know, I, I, I really

hope God's recorded a lot of these things on video camera in heaven. You get to

see sort of certain things, the outtakes, the bloopers. Um, but it's one of

those where In today's culture, Peter would have been cancelled. Yeah. The first,

first denial. That's it. You're out. You're not in our community. You're not in

our group. You're not part of our tribe. You are out. In fact, not only are you

out, we are going to take to social media and we're going to tell the whole

world how much of a muppet you really are and make your life, like, miserable.

Because that's what we do in cancel culture, isn't it? It's like you don't agree

with— you've put yourself outside of our tribe. That's it. You're out sort of

thing.

Yeah.

I don't get the feeling that was John's response. No, you know, because it was

joy— it was Peter and John that were walking to the temple that pulled the lame

man up to walk, right?

So it's like, yeah, they did it together.

Yeah, yeah. It's like— and I almost wonder actually whether that cemented their

friendship, whether going through something like that, walking with somebody,

cements that friendship. Like, I can think of a couple of people Um, who over

the years walked away from God, but we walked with them. They come back to God

and your friendship with that person is so much stronger. Yeah. Because you've

walked with them through something, you know, quite, quite, um, sad as that.

It's just really interesting. I, I, I, I am genuinely curious on, on John's

response.

I'm also, um, thinking Is there anyone out there that resents that person? That

you're a John and you see a Peter and you're resenting him?

Oh, this is the older brother, younger brother in the prodigal son.

You're not moving on because you think, why on earth did God give that person

that blessing, that job, and your life's gone off like this?

Such a good point, Dan.

I'm just saying to you now, you, you've gotta, gotta look and say, sorry about

this, God, I saw that, let's bless him, and I need to, I need to change, I need

to move on. I think there's that, yeah, just sitting there stuck because of

resentment.

Yeah, it's such a good point, Dan. And, um, as you talked about it, Matt said,

oh, it's just like the prodigal son story, which is like the 2 brothers, one

goes off and squanders all his inheritance the other one is faithful and does

the right things. And then, you know, the father kind of looks— when he comes

back, the father loves them both the same. And it's like, it's a picture of how

God behaves with all of us, right? And, um, and this is a good example as well,

Peter's story. But I love the end of that story because I used to think— like, I

grew up in church, I certainly wasn't perfect, far from it— but like, I used to

think Well, why don't I get this?

Why don't I get it?

When you see other people, you've been like in church 2 minutes and yeah,

they're promoted to this and God blesses them like that, and they get married at

20 and have 45 children and a huge house. And I'm not saying those things make

your life perfect, but yeah, yeah.

Um, might be regretting the 45.

Yeah, definitely. But you know what I mean?

Like, people—

it seems like on the surface other people are getting more than you think you

deserve. Like, you feel like you deserve more, you've been faithful and

whatever. And I I used to resonate with that story a lot. And but at the end of

the story, it's interesting to see what the father says to the, to the younger

brother who's like complaining, like, but what about me? And, um, and he says,

but you're always with me and everything I have is yours. So it's almost like,

yeah, but you haven't had, you haven't had that hard path where you've gone away

from me and come back.

Yeah.

you're just always with me. Yeah. And, you know, you've got everything. All my

resources are your resources. So it's like, what more could you want? You've got

me, you've got everything. And that, for me, it's kind of the answer. It's like,

but know and be secure in your relationship with God that you're close to him,

you've always been close to him, and all of his resources are yours.

Yeah.

And yeah, you couldn't be any more blessed. Like, yeah, don't look over your

shoulder at someone who's like walked away or messed up and then come back and

God's like picked them back up. Like, there's nothing to envy there. Like, their

journey is their journey and yours is yours, but you've got everything anyway in

God. And yeah, I— it's a challenge, isn't it? And I, I totally have related to

that story, but that for me is like, oh, it stops me in my tracks.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, what am I complaining about? Yeah, I've got everything, every blessing

of God.

All the riches. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Um, let's talk a little bit about that, the whole idea of shame as well. Um,

because it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think in our culture, shame is

such a big thing. And, um, what's the difference to either of you? What's the

difference between feeling bad about something you've done, like a, you know,

convicted, like You've screwed up, and sometimes it's good to feel like, oh,

I've screwed up, I need to sort this out and get it right, versus the shame of

being like held back by that. Yeah, like, what's the— what's kind of—

You've kind of answered it in many ways. I think, I think actually some people

need to feel shame. This is a— it's a really interesting thing, isn't it? I—

there's that old phrase, ain't no shame in your game. And I think actually for

some people, you know, But that said, I think shame is, um, is what Adam felt.

He was ashamed, and so he hid. I think shame makes you hide.

Yes.

And it kind of makes you bury your head and hope that there's a better outcome,

you know, that things will be okay. Um, whereas conviction is it's an arrow, but

you kind of go, yeah, yeah, that's— you've got to take that on the chin and it

causes you to come to God. And I think there's a really interesting phrase, uh,

in— I think it's in the book of Romans where talking about the Holy Spirit, um,

and how he works, saying it's the goodness of God that leads you to repentance,

right? So repentance just means to turn around, to change your ways, to

acknowledge. you know, to take that conviction and go, yeah, that— not to hide,

basically, to come before God with it. That's repentance. And it's understanding

the goodness of God that causes you to do that. Whereas shame, I think, hides

you from the goodness of God and therefore causes you to hide what you've done,

push it down, bury it deep down, not talk to God about it, not talk to anybody

else about it, pretend like it doesn't exist. Um, and that's what shame does.

And I think just about everybody has had or will have something inside them deep

locked by shame and by shame.

And I think I was looking at it before, and one of the definitions says that

with shame, we can often link that more to our identity. It's not just an

activity that happened, that's us. We stole that, therefore we are a thief, you

know. And you can, you can believe that, and it, it's part of you. Um, with

guilt, there's almost a bit of freedom in that. You see, I've done something

wrong, there's a consequence, but I can, I can move out of that. And sometimes

shame, we can get stuck in it thinking, well, that's— there's no moving because

that's me.

Yeah.

But, but God, we know God can take us out. He can change our identity, can't he?

It's not, it's not what we've done, it's what he, he's done for us. So yeah,

moves us out of that. Um, and I think that's what this story shows so well,

doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, the whole Jesus cooking for Peter on the beach.

It's like, yeah, Peter could have been like Judas, couldn't he? Because that

could have been the end.

Yeah, it could have been the end of his story. It's interesting that that's

another disciple's story. Yeah, like, it's an interesting point, Dan, because

you think, where could have Judas's story gone if he'd been willing to say or

admit Yeah. Rather than lie about his, yeah, his, you know, his mistake, his

poor choices, whatever, you know, his sin, whatever.

His shame was so great that for him, the only way out was to take his own life.

Yeah. Which is, I mean, that's horrific. It is. It is. Yeah. And that's where

shame takes you. Yeah. Not everyone, not ultimately, but I mean, we've got to

talk about these things, especially, you know, what's the CALM thing?

Campaigning Against Living Miserably and stuff like that. Um, and especially

amongst men, the whole, the whole thing that you are captured by that and that

now defines you is, I think, is just a big fat lie. Yeah. Um, yeah, Sharon put

here in the comments actually on the, on the horizontal, uh, livestream. We've

got 3 livestreams going on in case you don't know. We've got the extra to

juggle. We've got one going to YouTube, which is the normal one you watch on TV,

another one going to YouTube, which is the portrait mobile phone version. And

we've got a Live Lounge happening, um, over in Zoom, which Sonia talked about in

the comments. We're running a test week this week. Next week we will give you

the link if you want to come join us in Live Lounge. I'll explain— well, we'll

explain more about that later, I guess. Um, but Sharon put on the horizontal

comments, I wonder if Jesus purposefully restored Peter in John's presence,

right? That actually not only— and I, I'm going to go with yes as the answer.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm going to maybe throw out there that it wasn't just for John. So

restoring John's relationship with Peter so John could see the grace of God in

action, you know, back to the, why do they get it and I didn't? But also so

Peter could be restored in front of John. Because had he have not, even though

he knew here that God had forgiven him, now his friend is also walking in that

forgiveness and restoration.

Yeah.

And I, I'm not saying it's a male thing entirely, but I think that walking with

your brother through some restoration stuff where you feel the acceptance of God

plus your tribe, that's a really big deal.

Yeah.

That is a really big deal. And Peter and John are going to go on and form

perhaps one of the best partnerships the world's ever seen in many ways for the

next few years. And so I think this is absolutely critical. Um, for both of

them, not just for John, but also for Peter.

Um, yeah, I'd be inclined to probably agree. It's, it's interesting because

there's quite a lot of chat in all the feeds actually about this. It's the point

that, um, Itchy Burrito raised earlier, which is the Sopwith, by the way.

Mystery solved. They, they messed up and said it's their son's account.

Oh, is it? I was going to say, can I say, Will and Kate, well done for actually

getting into the comments. He's been doing Crowd for however many years and

never been able to get the YouTube comments.

He gets in as an itchy burrito.

Yeah, yeah. And then blames us some for a bad handle.

Oh, Sarah from across the pond is waving at me in the YouTube comments. Hello,

Sarah from across the pond. Anyway, sorry, the itchy burrito.

Yeah, no, I was just saying that they raised a similar point earlier on in the

chat, just saying it's an interesting question. I imagine they must have traded

Key stories. No, it's not that bit. Um, where is that?

Comments are a little bit trickier to— yeah, on the new view, aren't they?

Struggling to navigate it because it's moving around. Um, yeah.

Well, while you're finding it, can I ask the question?

Oh, he says here, how do you, how do you think the other disciples reacted to

the grace that Jesus showed Peter? Did they know about the denials, I wonder?

Obviously John did, but that's an interesting point as well. Like, the wonder—

well, it's in all 4 gospels, so everybody knew about it. Yeah. So Mark was, um,

written with Peter. Mark wasn't a disciple as far as I'm aware. I could be

wrong, but I think Peter with Mark wrote that. You've got Matthew.

They weren't necessarily all there at the moment, were they?

No.

They just obviously talked about it.

Yeah, because there are only 2 people in there. So the fact that they all wrote

about it and all talked about the denial as well.

Yeah.

Which means they all knew.

Yeah.

And I wonder whether it was— yeah, whether it was actually Peter that told them.

Yeah, I'd like to think that, that it was Peter that told them. It wasn't that

John sort of said, oh, you know, guess what happened? Peter did this, or—

Yeah, but Pete, I think this again, going back to your point about shame and

conviction, I think if you've been convicted about something and you've received

the forgiveness of God, I, I don't like talking about robbing from the chip

shop. I just don't. But I talk about it because I can see the redemption of God

coming through the other side.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? It's like, I don't, I don't necessarily want to brag.

I'm not here bragging about it, but I am saying that God did some great stuff in

me as a result. And I, I wonder actually if it's Peter that tells them because

of the same reason. It's like I once was blind, but now I see. It's that kind

of, God did this work for me and in me, not bragging about it. But if I did this

as Peter and you do something stupid, well, God's going to forgive you kind of

thing.

Yeah.

It's so interesting that it's— because there's been a lot of chat about this,

and it's just a really interesting point that it's not just kind of the

relationship with Peter and Jesus that this story's about. It's actually

affected their relationships with each other as well.

Yeah.

And strengthened and deepened. And all of their relationships. And Alicia's just

said, it's a fantastic point. Time and time again, we see the Lord using what

our close admired ones go through to help or instruct us, which is one thing.

And actually, there's another comment, weakness actually deepens relationship.

And being vulnerable and weak with one another and seeing each other's faults,

actually, if you can get past that, stuff. And when we screw up with each other,

yeah, actually, you know, and get past that, and it's like, hey, Dana really

screwed up. It's okay, Anna, I forgive you. You know, those kind of

conversations at a deep level deepen relationship, don't they? And they take you

further in your friendships and your relationships. And yeah, you go to another

level. And it's true.

Yeah, it is. It's interesting you, you said, you know, this is the Jesus the

Revolutionary talk. talks. And that one thing that happened, all the disciples

saying, no, we're not going to deny you. Peter does. Then he's the, you know,

leader. Um, that, that one thing would— could have been enough to destroy this

whole movement, couldn't it? If it was just a movement based on, on people,

that's, that's the end of it. That's the end of it, that someone comes in and

does that and it all goes to pot.

Yeah.

But it just Time and time again that, you know, the arguments for Christianity

are just so, yeah, strong because they go against what you'd write down, what,

what we've seen in history with just normal men and women.

Yeah, if it was left to humans and it was just a purely human story, yeah,

that's what would have happened. They would all just fell out and given up.

Yeah, because we've all seen that in the workplace and in a hundred different,

you know, social situations. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It's like God factor in

it. Yeah. In Jesus that makes all the difference in this story. Yeah.

The other thing that's interesting about it though is when you, if you try and

put yourself in Peter's head, right? He's denied Christ 3 times. He's run away

and he's wept bitterly. And I, I have to be honest and I'm, I'm really, I don't

want to come across as judgemental in any way when I say this, The thing I

struggle hardest with in my Christian walk is when people walk away from the

Christian faith who, like Peter, have walked with Christ, have experienced

Christ, have seen the miracles, have known him, heard him, had revelation. I

mean, all of the things that Peter's had. And yet somehow, because it's not—

life's not working out how you expected, or Jesus is not quite matching up to

what you had in your head, It's like, I'm now going to walk away. And I, I guess

because I became a Christian later on in life, I've never had that desire

because I know what it is I left behind. It's not that good, right? It's really

not that good. And so one of the things that intrigues me in all of this is what

was Peter's thinking after the denials? Because how was he justifying the denial

versus what he saw for those 3 years, obviously pre-resurrection, you know,

before the story starts to get really good. Um, but it's like, what was he

thinking? What kind of excuses was he making for what he experienced? Do you

know what I mean? And it's like, and people who just deconstruct their faith,

it's like, I'm genuinely curious how you reconcile The previous 5, 10, 20 years

of walking with Christ versus what you're thinking now. And one of the things

that people have said to me who have deconstructed their faith as well, that

was— and then would give me a rational explanation for what happened. And it's

kind of like, huh, it's just really interesting that for 20 years you thought

one way and now you think another way.

Yeah.

And you've kind of denied all of this, and you're convinced what you're thinking

now is true, but you were convinced what you're thinking was true.

Yeah, yeah.

So how can you trust yourself now to know what's true? And I— and this comes

back to— it's kind of like the reverse certainty, I think, of Peter and the

bravado of the disciples. We will be here till the end. We will die with you.

You know, I can just hear the conversation. I'd have said the same thing because

it's very mad, and, you know, But I think sometimes there's an arrogance there,

right, which says, I am so certain of my faith. I've heard so many people say

that, and a few of them have walked away. Do you know what I mean? And I think

we have to have a humility which says, by the grace of God, there go I. Do you

know what I mean? It's kind of like, God, help me by your grace. And I wonder if

that would have been a better prayer when Jesus said, this is what's going to

happen, just to go, God, help me, give me your grace. Yeah, rather than— do you

know what I mean?

It's interesting because there's, there's this writer called Anne Lamott who,

um, who's a Christian writer. She's quite wacky, she's from America, but she's,

she's written some good stuff. And she talks about— She, um, she talks about,

um, so like, I mean, she's— yeah, she's kind of like from California and like an

old hip ex-hippie sort of thing. Um, But she's, she's written some stuff on like

faith and doubt. And quite often as Christians, we think faith on the one hand,

doubt on the other, like faith and doubt are the opposites of each other. And

she argues like doubt isn't the opposite of faith. Doubt is absolutely a normal

part of the Christian walk, which I agree with. Like all Christians have days

and moments and times where they doubt, they question. That's part of what takes

your faith deeper.

Yeah.

like questioning, thinking, processing. There's times where your faith will be

high and times where it'll be very low. Yeah, or on the floor. And that, that's

okay. That's all part of a faith journey. And faith is— isn't— it's actually—

and she says basically the opposite of faith is certainty.

Oh yeah.

Because we can't actually be certain, because faith is a leap into trusting God.

Yeah. And it's trust, not a certainty. And you can't build faith, you can't

build a lifetime of faith and a lifetime walk with Jesus on certainty, because

you can't be certain of everything. Yeah, like, it's— it takes faith. And yeah,

I just thought that's really interesting. It made me think about it when you

were talking, Matt. But I think—

I think it's so true. I know, I think I've heard that before, that the opposite

of faith is certainty. We might have even said it on Crowd Church. And I think

it is such a powerful point. Yeah, a really powerful point that it's not

unbelief, it's not the doubt. Lord, I believe, help my unbelief is a prayer in

scripture, right? It, it is the absolute surety. And we see— and I wonder

whether actually that surety, I will not, was actually made Peter's fall even

harder. I wonder if that was part of his shame, because he thought, I never

thought I would do this. Do you know what I mean? I, I was a guy that was

willing to chop somebody's ear off, and it's kind of like And walk on water.

Yeah, yeah. And walk and have a go. Yeah. And it's kind of like, I, I just

wonder if that certainty at the start, that— can I call it arrogance? I don't

know. I— let me call it bravado, because it's just men, testosterone, talking

about we won't do this kind of thing. And I've been in those conversations, but

I think a little humility which says, you know, pride comes before the fall.

This is something we need to be aware of. But actually, that little bit of

humility which which just says, God help me.

Yeah, I do. I'm going to put something sort of a little bit off on that same

point. For those that are in church, do you reckon sometimes we can do that with

our worship songs? We have some songs now that are very much bravado. Don't you

think? I will do this, I will always fall down, I will always listen to you.

Yeah, I'll always do this. And sometimes I have to talk to my staff and go,

yeah, am I going to sing this? If I do sing this, what happens when I don't? Am

I going to sing this and say, God, give me the strength that I can do that? It's

not to say they're wrong, it's just something that came to me.

You know why they've been written. Yeah, at the same time, yes, we've got to be

careful with that.

We can't— otherwise it's us, isn't it? It's our arrogance, it's our power.

Yeah. And it's— well, the New Testament again is take heed lest you fall, right?

It's that Uh, I have— Paul's saying, I've run my race well with endurance. And

it's like, he's only saying that at the end. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And

it's kind of like, well, well done, Paul. Yeah. But at the start, were you, were

you that confident? And it's that kind of— again, I like your point. It's that,

that it's good to have some certainty about your faith. Certainty is the wrong

word given what we've just said. It's confidence. Yeah. It's good to have

confidence in, in God and boldness. I love boldness.

Yeah, exactly.

And interestingly, actually, the first prayer Peter prays that we know about

after Jesus ascends to heaven, Lord, give us boldness, you know, behold their

threats and give us boldness that we may proclaim your word as we ought. And

it's that kind of— the boldness is not in my bravado, it's in proclaiming the

word of God. And I, and I think certainty is bad. I think confidence is—

certainty is not bad, but you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Confidence is great. Boldness is great in the things of God. Um, but take heed

lest you fall. Don't be that arrogant, you know. Keep a short account of the

sin. Keep, keep your heart soft.

Yeah, boast only in Christ, isn't it?

Yes, that whole thing. It's not about you, it's not about anything you've done.

And as soon as it starts being about you and you and your achievements, and it's

like, I think it's a slippery slope.

Yeah. And I think we can— I'm just thinking about Um, Peter and John writing—

you were talking about, you know, right, putting all these words down, creating

the Gospels, how they must have gone over what Jesus had done, going through all

those stories again. And in our lives, I think we talk about deconstructing, we

can forget— well, I think people must. Like you've said, we have when I see

people that say, I've just deconstructed my faith, I think, but what about all

those things God did for you and you saw and you testified that you didn't lie

back then? You knew it. And I think when the disciples looked back, they must

have gone, look at all these things that, that God did through us. And I've seen

it in marriages. Oh, I didn't, I didn't love her when I said— yes, yes, you did.

But look back at yourself.

Yeah.

Get into, get into the word. get into what God's done for you. Don't forget, if

that's what I'm trying to say, don't forget all the things that, that God has

done for you.

Um, well, it is interesting that all the Gospels were written post-resurrection.

They, they're not journal entries. No, right? These are, these are understanding

events in the light of a resurrected Christ. And I, I wonder if they'd have

written them as journal entries. whether that— I mean, I, I do feel like they've

tried to be honest in the Gospels. Like, we were thinking, what? And a bunch of

disciples walked away and all this sort of stuff. Um, and I— yeah, it's, it's an

interesting one, isn't it? And I think one of the dangers actually of Christian

books— so you read a good Christian book, The Cross and the Switchblade, is, you

know, or whichever one is your, your, your book of choice.

One I've written.

Now, Sand Between Your Toes, available from all good bookstores, wherever books

are sold, written by Anna Kettle. Anna Kettle writes Thanks for that, Matt. No

worries. And actually, stay connected because Anna is now writing a second book.

I am.

You have a deal with a publisher for the second one. I'm gonna need your

autograph soon. Um, where was we? Oh yeah, Christian books. Yeah, the thing

about a Christian book is you, you write them post-event, right? And so, um, the

stories that you read— like, I will— I always love reading the stories of Smith

Wigglesworth. John G. Lake, these kind of old-school preachers that God would

just heal everybody through. Do you know what I mean? And just amazing stuff

happening. And you'd read these stories and you go, God, why is that? If I look

at my life and I look at his, it's like they just don't measure up. And the

trouble we have when you read these kind of books is you read about their

mountaintop experiences. What you don't read about is the 5 years of boredom in

between where the day in, day out has to happen.

Yeah.

And so, and it's a— I mean, we do it in a much simpler way, I think, with

Instagram. We judge and compare these beautiful moments to our life. Well,

you're on a yacht. Why am I not on a yacht? And it's that kind of— what we don't

see in any of these is, is the boring drudgery.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? And I think we— they are great books to read, super

inspiring, but I think you have to read them in the context. which says,

actually, it's what I do on a Tuesday morning when I get out of a fishing boat

and I've not, I've not caught anything all night. It's been useless. It's all

failed. And it's in that point Jesus meets him on the beach. Yeah. Do you know

what I mean? Yeah. So anyway, I think I've laboured that point enough.

It's interesting what you sort of mentioned about deconstruction as well though,

Matt, because I, I, you know, I often think about that and, you know, We

probably all know people who've deconstructed their faith or walked away from

their faith at some point. You know, we've all been Christians around this table

long enough to, to know people who've been on that journey. And yeah, I, I

always— I'm the same. I always struggle when people go through something

difficult and then go, oh, I can't believe in God anymore.

Yeah.

And I sort of think, well, what— I don't know, I don't, I don't get it either,

because I'm like I, I, I guess I'm like, what were you expecting? But also, I

think, like, for me, when I've been through difficult things, I sort of think— I

always come back to that story of what the disciples did. So, you know, when,

when the going gets hard, like, Jesus does some teaching.

Mm-hmm.

And, and you, you mentioned it before, but Jesus teaches some quite, you know,

challenging teaching. And then a number of the sort of crowd of, like, his

disciples, who are, you know, the extended group that are following him around,

kind of go, oh, I can't get on board with that. And they leave because it starts

to get a bit challenging. And, um, and then he turns around to the disciples,

and I think Peter's one of them, and he says, um, do you want to— Well, do you

want to go as well? Will you leave too? And they say— and I think it's Peter who

responds, I can't remember the story entirely, but I think it's Peter who says,

Well, where else are we gonna go? Where else are we gonna go, Lord? Yeah, you

hold the words of life. Yeah. And I think I've been in that position where it's

like, well, I could walk out. I've kind of had enough of this. Things are hard.

This is not how I wanted it to be. Like you say, it's disappointing. It's, it's,

you know, God's not answered prayers in the way I wanted, or, you know, like

church hasn't worked out the way I wanted. Like, people have let me down and it,

it wasn't as good as it didn't— not, not as good, but it didn't work out in the

way I expected. And, and, and yeah, I sort of think I always come back to that

thing of like, where else would I go? Yeah, like, I don't have another answer

for— yeah, life better than this.

And you don't have all the end— you don't have— there's still answers you need

to have, right? But this comes back—

Get them all this side of heaven. That's the thing.

But that comes back to the faith versus certainty thing. Yeah. And in the

meantime, in the midst of the questioning, you go, where else am I going to go?

The ironic thing is, I know people that would have probably counseled you

through the miscarriages, prayed with you, prayed for you, encouraged you. But

when something similar happens to them, they're the ones that walk away. Yeah.

And it's kind of like, well, hang on a minute. Why? Why can you encourage and

pray for somebody when they're going through difficult times? Stay faithful.

Stick it out. God's not finished. But when it's you, oh, that's a different

story. Yeah. And it comes. Comes back to that pride humility thing. Anyway, I

think we've opened a big enough can of worms. Yeah. Right at the end.

Covered a lot of ground tonight, haven't we?

We have covered— well, it's the first week back. We've got to cram it all in. Be

a lot calmer next week. Yeah. So just to say, next week we will hopefully be

doing live lounge. We've got to get some feedback from the people in the Zoom

room, but we are gonna do this thing called Live Lounge where if you want to

watch on YouTube, you're more than welcome and you can write in the comments

like folks have done tonight. But in Live Lounge, what we're going to do is make

it so you can watch and hear the live stream in a Zoom meeting with people from

around the world. Um, and you can chat and meet people and make friends. And

whilst we're maybe doing Conversation Street here, at some point we will stop

that. You can carry on the conversation amongst each other. Um, and so by all

means, like I say, stay on YouTube if that's not your vibe. But if you want to

get together with people, build community, build friendships, have conversation,

meet new people, um, then Live Lounge is going to be the place to do it. We will

put the links out, uh, at some point during the next week. I might even get them

in this week's newsletter. If you're not subscribed to the newsletter, do

subscribe. But we'll also put them in the Zoom comments during the live streams

going forward. So you'll, you'll start to pick it up. Um, so Live Lounge going

forward, that's what's happening.

And we'll also hop in on the end as speakers and hosts as well. So that's cool

because it's a chance for us to meet you rather than just see your streams and

comments. Yeah, that's nice for us as well.

Yeah, you don't have to have your camera on, by the way, if you come into Live

Lounge. Yeah, you can, uh, you don't even have to have microphone on, I suppose.

But, um, if you want to come have conversation Um, feel the freedom. But yes,

uh, that's what's, uh, going to be happening with Live Lounge. So we're going to

stop this. Zoe, my beautiful daughter who's doing the tech, please do not end

the Zoom once we've ended this. We're going to let them chat and then we're

going to join in. Okay, uh, you can just put it on mute when you— when we've

done.

Uh, anyway, back to the actual host.

Yeah, sorry.

Uh, so is that a wrap, Matt? Are we done? I don't really know how to follow

that. He's done all the admin live.

Well, I know I've just informed about live lunch.

So tell us what's happening next week. I know that I'm hosting again. I'm here

again.

Um, you— are you like here for like the next few weeks?

Yeah, it's like my penance for taking, taking all the holidays over the summer.

You did all right saying you've been off for quite a while. You didn't stumble.

You didn't. No. Did you enjoy it?

Oh, we had a great time. We went to South Africa, folks. It was a beautiful

country. It was good fun with some friends.

So next week, Dan's on tech. Okay. You and Dave Connolly are hosting, and Shaz,

my beautiful wife, is speaking. Brilliant. So got all that to look forward to.

Yeah. And continuing this series on Jesus the Revolutionary. Great. So if you're

not joining us in the Zoom link tonight, then we'll see you midweek.

Oh, actually, we need to put the Zoom link in the comments, don't we?

We do.

And also, is there an alpha we want to, uh, oh yes, people about? Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. Actually, that comment— sorry, we've just got things a little bit

confused. go.crowd.church/meet is not an active link anymore. Um, so I will put

in go.crowd. I think the link is go.crowd.church/live-lounge, um, is the actual

link. So, um, I don't know why I'm logged in as Aurion Vault, but there you go.

So go.crowd.church/live-lounge if you want to come join us afterwards. It'd be

great to see. In fact, you can go straight, straight there now. It should be, it

should be live. Um, and yes, on Wednesday we have a brand new Alpha course

starting. So if you want to do Alpha and explore Christianity with us, it's a

real simple, easy course where we explore some of the key ideas of Christianity.

Um, takes about 15 weeks, every Wednesday night, 7:30 UK time. And again, we do

it on Zoom. You get to meet some really great people. You don't need to put your

camera on. You're not going to get preached at. This is just a conversation

where we where some really great stuff is going to happen and you'll make some

really good friends. And so people love Alpha. So that one is starting on

Wednesday. If you want to come along with Alpha with a friend, or if you want to

recommend it to somebody, please do that. Just sign up on the website, uh,

www.crowd.church/alpha, or just follow the Alpha link on the website, um, and

then you'll get into the system, you'll get all the emails, you'll get the links

and all that sort of stuff. So just head to the website And you, my friend, will

be good to go. And I will see you there. I'm doing the Alpha this week, uh, this

Alpha course. So, um, I'll see you in there on Wednesday. I love Alpha.

Yeah, fantastic. I love Alpha as well. I've, um, I, I think Alpha is something

everyone should do at least once in their life. It's, um, it's just really good.

It really just explains Christianity step by step in such easy-to-understand

way. It's so practical and quite fun.

Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah, I'm totally an advocate for it. Oh, and there's

breaking set there.

Maybe it's a sign it's time to wind up.

Yeah, thanks very much for joining us, and hopefully we'll see you in the live

lounge.

Yep, see you soon, folks.