Beyond Sunday Ep 18 (The Importance of the Resurrection)

Welcome to Be on Sunday, a podcast as that is an extension

of the preaching ministry at L AM CI am Pastor Jonah Chitty,

joined as usual by Pastor Joe Pinner.

Pastor Joe, how are you doing? I am doing well, thank you.

How are you doing down there in sunny Florida?

I'm down here in sunny Florida. It is hot.

I don't know where the temp is where you are, but it's about

75°F here and not so sunny. It's about to rain.

They're complaining about cold weather coming in and it dipping

into the, I don't know, 40s. So they're going to be freezing

cold. The scarves will come out in

Florida. Everybody will be bundled up for

40° weather. But yeah, overall, just it's a

really good time of visiting with family for Thanksgiving.

And yeah, kids are not here now. They went somewhere else to hang

out with other grandparents. So I'm here home alone, and

that's good because I get to talk to you so.

I don't know about that. So go on vacation.

Go on vacation and still talk to Joe.

That's really good. Tell us how much we like each

other. Yeah, Well, I, I was looking at

your weather because I was curious the other day and I saw

what you're saying. It's like there's like a 20°F

dip that you guys are expecting like next week.

It's crazy, Yeah. Yeah, that's just a, it's just a

cold front. They say it's a cold front and

air quotes because it's not really cold, it's just

different. And so yeah, they'll be, it'll

be it's a wet cold though. It is.

It is chilly. But yeah, it's good to see my

family and good to hang out with the extended family, not just my

parents. Get to see my brother and my

sisters and all their youngins and all that stuff.

So. So yeah.

So we'll, we'll jump right in. You preached a sermon on Sunday,

didn't you? I did.

Yeah, I think it was called the importance of the Resurrection.

That seems like seems like a on the nose title like it.

It is pretty important. And you preach that from First

Corinthians 15 versus 12 to 19. So why don't you give us a

little recap and then and then we'll go from there.

Yeah, well, people who've been tuning in are probably going to

really start to see us like, I guess we talked about our titles

a lot and how they're changing and adapting and modifying.

And I guess I'm starting to feel like maybe maybe my title should

be more that way. So that I guess my biggest

conviction of titles is that if anybody's ever running through

our sermons on our website as like, let's say, a catalogue of

sermons, that the title just basically gives you a really

good idea what the sermons about rather than like we've said

before about captivating or. Right.

I don't know, man. We do talk about titles a lot.

I think I'm, I go back and forth.

I think what what I dislike most about them is that I'm not good

at riding them. And so it's like, it's like,

wait, it feels like I'm burning extra calories on something that

no one is going to pay attention to.

Or in the very least, like somebody might chuckle if I make

it provocative or they might say, and then that had nothing

to do with the title. So I don't know.

I go back and forth though. I think I think clearer is

better. But yeah, I like provocative

too. Yeah.

So the importance of the resurrection and just based on

that text, as you already mentioned in First Corinthians

1 Corinthians 15:12–19

chapter 15, verses 12 through 19, where where Paul is really

speaking from a negative vantage point.

And he's talking about like, you know, if if we're proclaiming

that Christ has risen from the dead, then how can you, some of

you say there's no resurrection? And because if there's no

resurrection, that means Christ hasn't, Christ hasn't risen from

the dead. And then he goes through a whole

bunch of implications of what that would then mean.

But they're all from a negative vantage point.

And so I even sort of wrestled with, well, even in my sermon

outline, should I, should I state all my sermon points in

the negative or should I already already work ahead to make them

positive? And I kind of wanted to stay.

I know you had sort of encouraged me.

It's like I always want, I always want my sermon to sort of

match the tone of the text. And so that's what I ended up

doing. And so all of my points were

were going on to that negative aspect.

The first point being that without the resurrection, our

message is meaningless. And Paul goes on to say that,

you know, we preach in vain and we believe in vain.

If if the resurrection isn't true and Christ didn't rise from

the dead, then we then our message is just completely

meaningless. Then he goes on to say, without

the resurrection, our witness is worthless because he's talking

about, you know, his witness for God, the fact that he's speaking

things that are from God and he's testifying about God.

And if we're saying that he rose Christ from the dead and he

didn't raise Christ from the dead, then our witness is

worthless. And that witness that he's

giving is completely meaningless, completely

worthless. And then the Third Point is that

without the resurrection, our faith is fruitless.

And so again, if Christ really didn't rise from the dead, then

that means that what we're putting our faith in

accomplishes nothing. Our sin remains unforgiven, the

grave remains unopened, and life remains unfulfilled.

And so there's really no point in US doing anything that we're

doing essentially. I feel like that's essentially

what he's saying. He's like everything that we're

doing, everything that you're believing, and this is all just

a waste of time. Which is interesting because

what I sort of mentioned in the sermon too, that a lot of times

people will sort of praise Christianity for its good

morals. But Paul doesn't see

Christianity as something that's like just good for society or

like, well, it's really good morally speaking, which a lot of

people say that about religion and not just Christianity, but

like other religions too, right? Like, oh, they, they just have

good morals or, you know, they all sort of have the same idea

of morality. It's like, no, it's much more

than morals. Paul actually says, I, I feel

like what he's saying is like, if, if Christianity is based on

morals alone, it's still worthless.

It's still meaningless. The only reason our religion has

any value or any meaning is because Christ really did come

to the world. God in the flesh really did come

to the world, die, was buried and then rose from the dead.

Like that's why, like that's the issue and that's why it's so

important. And so because of all that, we

can't have faith, we can't have confidence, and we can give all

of our lives to God and living for his glory in with the hope

of the future resurrection because Christ did rise from the

dead as a first fruits, which is Jake's text this coming week.

Yeah, and like, not like, not just like we should or we can,

we can like live in hope. We should live in hope, right?

That that's like the ground of it all is like, Yeah, It it

proves that Jesus is who he says he was.

So that's really good. Yeah.

I thought that. I thought your, I thought your

points were really, really meaningful.

They're, they're memorable for sure.

They, they weren't meaningless. They were meaningful.

They weren't worthless. They were, they were worthwhile.

They weren't fruitless. They did bear fruit.

So this is really good. I was struck by, I think you

said something like, well, you, you sort of used Paul's words,

but like I just one of my notes was like, we commit our lives or

we who commit our lives, like people who commit their lives as

far as pastors and people who are in the ministry, as we, as

people who commit our lives to the message of the gospel.

We would be most pitied if Christ has not been raised from

the dead because we've just, we've not only like, and not to

toot your horn or anything like that, but we've not only like

said, yeah, we believe this is true.

And we're going to like raise our family up in this.

We believe this is true. And we're going to like stake

our entire like livelihood, reputation, all of these things

on this one event. And a lot of times I don't, I

don't know why. I don't know if you get this

feeling or not, but like seems like a lot of times, like it,

the resurrection is like almost an afterthought.

It's like not something that even in during Easter, it's

like, yeah, we get it, we talk about it.

But like, I don't know if that's the way you, that's the way you

felt about it in the past, but seems like it's just kind of

like an add on. Yeah.

He was raised and he was raised from the dead.

And I don't think Paul's saying that.

I think Paul's making it more than that.

I dude, I absolutely agree. I, I, I was sort of thinking

about that. I was wrestling through that

this last week. I mean, we've in your sermon,

you sort of touched on through theological triage and you know,

there are issues of first importance and then there are

issues that are maybe not as important that like we, we can't

disagree on it. So I was like, OK, like this is

going to sound dumb, but I like, I asked myself the question.

It's like, OK, well, is the resurrection, like is it a, is

that a first tier issue? Is that an issue of like first

importance? And then like as I started

thinking about it, I'm like, duh, I'm like, of course it is.

I mean, that's Paul's whole point.

Like that kind of felt like an idiot that I even thought about

it, but. You're absolutely right.

That's good though, but that's good.

That's what you're supposed to do.

And I think that's like like it's good.

Like we're supposed to ask questions every single time we

read something we say, OK, what is this?

Is this something that I have that I have to believe in order

to be a Christian? Or is this something that has

like room for me to and I think it's, it's fine to ask, but you

may, you may think, Oh, I'm dumb for like thinking this.

But no, I think, I think it's important for us to like to

always ask every doctrine we need to run through that,

through that filter, even if like, I mean, let's just be

honest, you didn't think about it long, right?

Right. You thought you thought about it

for like 02 seconds. You're like, oh, of course it

is. But like, like if you thought

about it for like 2 weeks, who might have had us more issues,

but like, it was like a, a fleeting thought like they say.

I mean, I think, yeah, it just seems like like we will talk so

much about like Jesus living and a perfect life and then and then

how he taught, like we'll talk more about the Sermon on the

Mount, which is good, good teaching.

We should we should talk about that stuff.

But we, we focus on his life rather than focusing on like the

power of the resurrection, because like through his defeat

over death, then we're given what after that, we're given the

gift of the Spirit. Like this is how we can like do

the whole Christian wall. Like the cause of Jesus raised.

And like, I think you started to talk about it some like, and

we're going to talk more about it over the like the next few

verses in this chapter. Is, is like, not only is was

Christ raised, we will be raised.

And in order to, in order to, to be a Christian, you have to

believe in the resurrection. That's just, that's just it.

I think it's like it is one of the most important tenets of the

of Christianity. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And.

If not the most so. Well, and you're absolutely

right. And I would say like, I guess

I'm guilty of this too, right? Like exactly what you're saying

that that there is a resurrection sort of becomes an

afterthought. And I think of even for myself,

it's like, you know, how many times do we say Christ died for

your sin, right? And so the emphasis is on like

the cross and the emphasis is on his death and his payment for

sin. But it's like, it's a, it's a

full package deal, you know, like, right, like the

resurrection is a part of him accomplishing our salvation.

Like, like you said, it's not just an add on or an

afterthought. Like it is central to the

gospel. Like it has to be, it has to be

there because it it, it accomplishes what he set out to

do. I think too, like maybe it's

like maybe it's a lack of faith or maybe it's just like this

idea that we're going to like, we have to be, we have to be

apologetic for it, like. Oh, yeah.

And part of the story is that he was raised from the dead too.

And that's what we believe. And so if you want to be a

Christian, you have to believe that too.

It's sort of like like just, yeah, sheepish.

You know, we get sort of like, oh, but you know, we sort of

believe this weird thing that this guy actually came back to

life. You know, we need to be like, we

need to be like pronouncing that with like, with gusto and hope.

And like, this is the reason we have hope that that there is

something beyond the grave, you know, there is something beyond

this life. And so, and the and the

resurrection of Jesus is proof of it.

So, yeah, I liked your, your your line too.

A dead a dead Jesus equals dead preaching and a dead faith.

And I thought that was just really that really like punched

me a little bit as well. You want, you want dead

preaching, just preach a dead Jesus.

No, not a living 1. And so thought that was really

good. ILOLI wrote in my notes.

LOL when you mentioned Bernie Madoff.

Oh man, I feel like, I feel like people, people probably know so

much more than me. I, if anybody really knows me,

it's like, you realize how detached I am from like anything

news related or society or culture related.

Like I, I don't watch the news. I, I don't have social media.

Like I just, I don't know anything, right?

So I'm like, like, this is the name I've obviously heard of

over the years, but like, this was like total shock to me.

Like I I didn't really know the ends of the story.

It's a crazy story. It is wild.

But yeah, just thinking that like all these people that that

had put their faith in him and trusted him and I'll come to

find out it's just a big scam. It's just, you know, a guy

moving around money to different people and taking, you know, one

guy's money and giving it to another guy to make it look

like, you know, and to think that like the work that it would

have taken to organize all of that, you know, a lie.

And you could have just done it honestly, and it probably

wouldn't have. Been nearly as much work.

That's true. And then the the amount of

people he had to involve too, which was crazy.

And then because it wasn't just one, like it just wasn't just

him, like he had to involve other people in that.

And then, yeah. And then like most of that money

was going to him, you know, So but anyway, I just thought it

was good. It was a good like illustration,

though, of like something that seemed legitimate that turned

out to be fake. And that if, if, if the

Christianity is like the a Ponzi scheme where that seems

legitimate on the surface and then it turns out to be fake.

And and what we're doing is is worthless.

But that's where there might be. Yeah, exactly.

And that sort of reminds me, I guess now that you say that like

like I, I sort of thought about during the week when we come to

these sorts of texts, sort of like you're saying about the

resurrection, that like we're sort of embarrassed to talk

about certain parts of our faith because they take an incredible,

they take faith to believe, right.

And so we don't, we don't shy away from that, but maybe

sometimes we do, right. And we're like, I don't want to

sound like an idiot, right? I believe some guy rose from the

dead and he was God, you know, and so, but so I didn't want to

make my sermon apologetics. I didn't want to make it about,

OK, well, I have to, I have to somehow prove the resurrection.

I'm like, you know what? No, I'm, I'm preaching to mostly

people who believe in it. You know, we, we always sort of

assume that there are some non believers that come to church

and are sitting there, but most of the people there believe in

the resurrection. And so I don't have to prove to

you the resurrection is true and I can't prove it anyway.

I, there's nothing I can do to prove the resurrection, but it

sort of did make me think of, if anybody knows the Babylon Bee,

they're sort of like that. They make, they make satire and

so they make fake stories just for effect, just to be funny.

And it reminds me of a video that they had made about the

resurrection. Had you seen that one with the

disciples? I mean, I may have seen it, but

no, I don't think, I don't remember.

So is this pretend story of the disciples sitting around like,

you know, lamenting the fact that, well, now, now our

leader's dead, right? Jesus is dead, what are we going

to do? And one of the disciples is

like, you know what, let's dig up his body and we'll just say

he rose from the dead. And then everybody's like, yeah,

what a great idea. And then it'll like, and then

we're all gonna die for our faith and die for the story to

prove that it's real. And then everybody's like, yeah.

And then one guy's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, that last part

you just said. And so anyway, it's just like

sort of this funny story that like to think that these guys

would make something out this fake story, dig up Jesus from

the grave and make it look like he rose from the dead and then

be willing to suffer and die for that.

And like all the while going to spread their message everywhere

they went. Like it's it really is just the

most ridiculous thing ever. It is, it is it's, it has to be

true. It's so ridiculous that the

story has to be true. Like any any plausible like

reason why they would make it up.

And then all like the the other one that Paul like brings out in

the text that I preached last week, that the one that so many

eyewitnesses, over 500 people saw him at the same time.

I mean, that's enough. That's enough witness for me

that there's no way that all those people hallucinated that

same event at exactly the same time.

So. Well, and I actually, I didn't

say this. I didn't say this in the first

service. It, it came to my mind in the

second service when I brought up that point of all the people

that saw Jesus, it was 500 people.

And I, I sort of was looking around the room.

I'm like, you know, there's 300 people in this room right now.

And it's like we add 200 more people to that.

And to think that like he appeared to 500 people at the

same time. Like it sort of just dawned on

me in that moment that it's like, wow, that's a huge crowd

of people that all saw him at the same time.

Like would they all have been same time, same time?

No, that's must. Have been something in the gravy

that day. I don't know.

Yeah, No, you're exactly right. It's like Paul and Paul's making

that that very same point and he's saying, hey, if you don't

believe me, go talk. Some of them are still alive,

right? Go talk to him.

Unfortunately, we can't. So yeah, I think it's really,

really good. And then I liked you brought in

the that Paul wanted to be seen as a man of integrity.

I thought that was really good. And and how he used that in

other letters, that was very I don't know.

I don't know why it struck me that you that you brought that

out so much, but it did. It made me think, yeah, Paul is

like basically like appealing to them based saying, hey, I'm

trustworthy, you can trust me. This is the truth.

And I don't know why he felt like he needed to do that over

and over again, but sometimes he did.

Yeah, and I, I guess it sort of dawned on me too, because,

because again, I, I didn't want to get into the whole

apologetics thing, but this, this is sort of an apologetic

that that is to, to assume that the disciples wanted to be

dishonest or were willing to be dishonest goes against it sort

of goes against what they had been taught by their master of

their whole this their whole, his whole ministry anyway,

right. That they were, they were

brought up on the principles of being trustworthy and telling

the truth and they believed in the 10 commandments.

One of the things which is don't lie, right.

And so to think that these guys would just be so willing to

distort the truth. I, I felt like it was important

for him for, for Paul to say we would be misrepresenting God if

we were saying that he raised Christ from the dead and he

didn't like and sort of that's important to him to go.

It's like we would be lying and why would we, why would we do

that? Why would we want to lie?

And so and then like, I just sort of, sort of made me think

like I know he says that in other letters.

And so I was sort of did some research and, and found all the

different areas where it's like, you know, he's very committed to

telling the truth. And, and it shows you like he

didn't just sit down and write, hey, OK, just write down a

letter. I think he was more careful than

that when he wrote his letters, to be careful and to do his

research and made sure he had the right facts and to make sure

that he was being a man of integrity and speaking the

truth. Yeah.

And even like, I'm just thinking about his life.

Like for him it may have been even more important for him to

say, you know, because he came from the persecuted, the

persecution side. Like he came from it being a

persecutor and now he's being persecuted and he's like, why?

Why would I not tell the truth? Like if this, if I didn't

believe this, my whole heart, there's no way I would be doing

this. Yeah, because he would have been

killing people. He was still would have been

going at going at it or he would have just died blind.

Right. That I think that's that's the

other alternative. Christ was going to stop Paul

from doing what he was doing, persecution of the church.

He's either going to use him or he was just going to finish him.

And so thank, thank him. You know, thankfully he did just

use him. So, yeah, absolutely, we can

have confidence in the resurrection because there's so

many eyewitnesses. I love that.

I don't know if you saw this link or this quote from Shriner

or not, but like, I was thinking about this text and I was

looking back through his commentary and he says, like, if

the resurrection isn't true, then we're misrepresenting God.

Like you, you brought that point out in your text, in your

sermon. And then he says we again see

the inextricable link between the destiny of believers and the

resurrection of Christ. If believers will not be raised

in the future, Paul asserts most emphatically, Christ is not

raised. The two are bound together.

And I think that's just like where the hope comes in for me,

like all of this, like, because let's be honest, like living a

Christian life is hard. It's really, really hard at

times. And there's just having hope for

the future that there's that there's something that we're

living for. It just means so much to me.

Like then knowing that that we are this, this union with Christ

is more than just union. And like the spirits in me so I

can live a life here. Union and Christ means raised as

well, and resurrection. And that's just so cool to think

about. Yeah, and I, it is it is

absolutely vital to our understanding.

You know, when writer of Hebrews talks about all the heroes of

faith, it's Moses in particular that he that he mentions like

was willing to, was willing to, you know, forsake earthly

pleasure and earthly treasures for heavenly ones, right.

And I think that that's sort of the whole faith that we follow

is people who are willing to to look to a world not of this

world, right? That this is not this is not

home. This is not where we're going to

land. And I think that's Paul's whole

point at the end of my text, verse 19.

If in Christ we have hope in this life only we're of almost

all people, most to be pitied like we do have hope in the next

life, which gives us, like you said, an incredible comfort,

incredible hope. You know what joy to know that

there's going to be suffering and there's going to be hard

things in this life. But it's not just this life.

You know, you really do understand.

Honestly, I, I feel like, OK, the resurrection is not true.

I mean, you start to sympathize with the world and you start to

sympathize with them to go when an injustice happens to them,

like drunk driver kills someone in your family or something like

that, right? You get why some people make it

their life's mission to like, I am going to make that guy pay or

I'm going to make sure he gets in jail or I am going to

whatever. I'm going to start an

organization that's against that.

And those some of those things are good.

I'm not saying that they're fruitless or or vain or

whatever, but I'm just saying you get why people sort of like,

fueled by bitterness and resentment, will, will pursue

those things. But for us as believers, we

trust those things into the Lord's care.

And we trust that, you know, even though it's still wrong, We

trust that he knows and that he has it in his hand.

And we're looking to a hope that's beyond this life and a

hope. Yeah, exactly there.

There's something else to hope in, because this life isn't all

there is. Yeah, it makes me think of when

you're talking about talking through that, the hope.

And it made me think, and you may use that example of like

someone, your family member dying as a result of someone

else's sin, right. Like, and then I start thinking

about like, what are examples that come to mind that are

people who had the opportunity for vengeance or maybe like

could have gone and expressed that and didn't.

And I was just thinking about we've we've used them as an

example before. But Elizabeth Elliott had every

right to be angry and upset at the death of her husband at the

hands of these natives down in South America.

But what did she do? She didn't like form an

organization to go and wipe out tribes.

She, she, she figured out a way to take the gospel back to them.

And I think in some way it may be that, that, you know, this

hope in the resurrection, this idea that, that, that this life

isn't all that there is. It may have fueled her.

I don't know. I haven't read her story like

some people have. But I would I have to, I have to

believe that something like this is what's fueled her that there

is that, you know, Jim Elliott is not gone, he's gone from from

earth, but he's, he's, he's with the, you know, with Jesus and,

and he and she wanted the same things that he wanted.

He wanted this, this tribe to be saved, to have the gospel to

believe. And so it was more important for

her to do that than they didn't seek retribution.

So anyway, I just thought, I just thought about like there's

so many other stories about like people who have like have every

right to do that. But then instead they give him

the gospel. So I pray that I would be.

I would be that person. Right.

Not like the vengeful person. Yeah.

So we can't have confidence in this life and a life to come.

Yeah. It's good.

And then, you know, the Justin Martyr story was helpful at the

end of your sermon. I thought that was really good.

I don't. I can't remember exactly how it

was tied in. So you want to give me something

on that? Yeah.

So I, I was just sort of emphasizing at the end that we

should, we should put our faith because, because we can have

such confidence in, in the resurrection that, you know, our

sins are forgiven. Christ did rise from the dead

and we will too. That gives us hope and meaning

and purpose in this life. Since we can't have that

confidence, we should be able to endure any difficulty in this

life looking to the hope we have in Christ.

That's sort of what we've just been talking about.

And that's tie. That's where I tied it into this

Justin Martyr. That's exactly what he did.

And so I don't, I don't know much of this guy's story, but I,

I know I've read some of his stuff for some of our classes.

I know we had to read it. And he, he was sort of like an

early apologist, right? Like some of the, some of the

rumors that were going on and, and again, the, the Christians

were being persecuted and some of the things that they were

saying is like, oh, they eat each other's.

They, they, they're eating blood and, and eating, drinking blood

and eating flesh, right? Like what's going on there?

A misunderstanding of the Lord's Supper, right?

Right, exactly. So a misunderstanding of the

Lord's Supper and and things like the holy kiss and like

they're like incest and so different, all all sorts of

different things. It's like some sort of origin.

And so they thought that's what they thought of the early

churches. So all these different things

that people were accusing Christians of that weren't true.

And so he wrote letters to emperors and to different people

that he had formed a relationship with so he could

inform them and actually correct these misunderstandings.

But but he wasn't a Christian. Like he grew up in a Pagan

family and and was searching for the meaning of life and finally

found Christ when an old man shared Christ with him and he

gave his life to Christianity to anybody who would listen and

debated many skeptics. But he ended up being beheaded

for his faith and he was completely unwilling to to

surrender, to submit. He was not willing to turn, he

says to turn from the Christianity to to worship the

Romans gods. He said no one who is rightly

minded turns from true belief to false, which I feel like is such

a great, that's such a great statement.

It is. I know I've thought of, I love,

I think of like the disciples statements too.

When when people start, you know, there were so many people

following Jesus all the time and then at one point a bunch of

people leave. I think it was actually right

after the Lord's or the whoever eats.

Him, he says, talk of me. Exactly.

Yeah. He's like Jesus, said something

really weird. Unless you eat of my body and

drink of my blood like you have no part of me and everybody.

'S like like this guy's a vampire.

We got to get out of here. Everybody leaves and then he

turns to the disciples and he's like, are you guys going to

leave too? And I just love like their

statement. It's like, where else are we

going to go? And it's like you have the words

of. Life, I think, is what that is,

what they say, right? Something like that, yeah.

Like. We we have the truth.

I mean, where are we going to go?

If this is the truth? What else are we going to do?

And I just love that resolve to go like, if this is true, I we

just have to stay here and just figure out what this this body

is blood's all about, right? We don't really.

Understand what you're talking about.

But we, we, we're committed, right?

I think that's so good. And I think you said I don't.

Know if you said this or I thought about it like I know you

did say this, these things give feet to our faith, right?

Like this, like the, the like believing the resurrection and

and being committed to the truth of the resurrection is what is

what fuels our faith. It gives us like the ability to

take steps of faith and then a faith worth living for is 1

worth dying for. And I thought that was a really,

really good point. And it like ties into the to the

Justin Martyr conversation. But like and then asking myself

like just thinking application wise like.

Am I willing to die? For it.

Am I willing to to sacrifice my family for it?

And, you know, if we're willing to live for it, then we must be

willing to die for it. And I think that's something

that we should all like we need to reconcile and come to terms

with, Right? So yeah.

Yeah. It's really.

Really good. And there are a lot of stories

of early martyrs in the early Christian faith like that.

And they they, I mean, all the disciples, most of the disciples

died. I think all of them except John.

I think people think that John probably died of old age on the

island of Patmos, but. All the disciples died for

their. Faith, many early Christians

died for their faith and they're persecuted.

And and, you know, we had, we were praying for the persecuted

church back in November or earlier this month here at the

church on a Sunday night. And that's there's believers

around the world right now. We're we're very far removed

from that. But they're suffering and dying

for their faith right now. Yeah.

And it's something we have. To keep, we have to keep that in

mind, right? Yeah.

And, and we have to ask ourselves the question, would we

be that bold, right? Like when it came to shove and

Christianity was outlawed, would we stand up for our faith, you

know? Yeah, we have different.

Challenges that definitely we have different challenges, but

we don't have that challenge yet.

And I honestly, though, Joe, I don't know how how much longer

we'll be able to, like, be free to do things like what we're

doing now and like, having a chat across an international

border about the gospel, Like, who knows what could happen in

five or six years or even like, having the ability to just

freely upload whatever we want to the Internet and it'd be

gospel related. So yeah.

Yeah. So man, I thought it was a

really good sermon. I really appreciated it even

though I had to listen after it was preached.

That's always sad to me. There's something missed.

I don't know. I don't know if you feel this,

but there's something missed. It's so different listening to

something recorded like a sermon rather than being in the room

and, and just feeling, feeling it in the in the room.

I don't know if how you feel about that.

Is it different for you? No, I, I do.

Agree with you like there's times even where you know if you

heard something live and then you go back to like, oh, I got

that sermon was so good and you like try to go back to listen to

it over then you're like, Nah, it just wasn't the same sort of

because you heard it once maybe or.

Yeah, maybe just you just imagined in your maybe it hit

you harder the Holy Spirit working in that in that time and

space, right. And he convicted you in the

moment and then you go back and you're like, I don't know why

that convicted me so much. And it really had nothing to do

with what the guy said. It just had the time that the

Holy Spirit wanted to convict your heart for something.

So. But yeah, it is it is difficult

to listen to them. And then, well, mostly because I

was listening with my headphones and kids were talking and

running around and playing piano and all the things and I'm, I'm

a very easily distracted person. So.

But no, I thought it was a really good sermon.

Really, really helpful. What would be your, your biggest

application point if you had to like hammer it home one more

time for the for the sermon? Yeah, I guess just.

Just like, I guess I was trying to think, what does this, what

does this mean for us? Like how do I, how do I, you

know, as as pastors were trying to think of application in the

sermon and I was sort of struggling through like, what

application does this have to our life?

And I and I think it is just, well, if you really believe it,

then you're going to then you're going to live it out, right?

Like what does the resurrection mean?

Well, the resurrection means that Christ really was God and

he really did come and he really didn't die and he really was

raised, which means this really is true, which just basically

for me just emphasizes everything that everything that

we already talk about all the time, right?

Anyway, it's like, man, why am I not seeking communion with this

God who did, who was willing to go to that extent for me?

Why? Why would I not pursue him in

his word and obey him and pray and call out to him like he's a

living God And that should fuel my faith for me to pursue him

and I guess just to live for a world that's not here, right?

Like that's the, the most important thing that we can do

is not build a life in a Kingdom here, but to look forward to

that life in that Kingdom in the next World.

Yeah, we are. What is the book of?

Oh, it is a book we had to read for seminary, I think, in

systematic theology. Oh, we're sojourners and

strangers. Yeah, like we are.

We are just. Like foreigners passing through,

this is not, this is not our home.

So, yeah, I think I think too, like if you take your, if you

take your points to your to like as you were explaining it there,

I started thinking about your points.

They're they're phrased in the negative.

But if you like, say, if it's true, then our message is

meaningful, right? And then our witness is

something that's worthwhile. And so we have, we should spread

it and then our faith produces fruit.

I think just making those positive, which you did a great

job of in the sermon, like at the, you know, as you were

flushing out the point, you said, you know, if it's fake,

then it's meaningless, but it's not.

And you kept going back to it, coming back to it, hammering at

home. So yeah, I thought it was a it

was a really good sermon, really helpful.

And I know, I know it will be helpful for a long time because

now we have it recorded and then the Internet on the ether

forever. So yeah.

So let's get any other final words on the sermon.

No, that's it. I'm.

Excited for Jake Sturman this coming Sunday.

He's going to sort of talk about I didn't, I didn't want to like

dive too much into the next section because I was thinking

like he he really starts to like he starts to go into the

positive direction, but I wanted to learn and he starts to flush

out this. Union, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And so. So yeah, I'm.

I'm really excited with with Jake Sturman this Sunday and,

and how he's going to sort of bring the positive side up and,

and there's a lot of really interesting stuff.

So for anybody who's coming to church this Sunday, I would read

ahead, read the First Corinthians 15 verses 20 through

1 Corinthians 15:20–34

34, and, yeah, come prepared to to hear what Jake's going to say

on Sunday. I think that's going to be

exciting. Yeah, it's.

Going to be good, looking forward to it, looking forward

to discussing it again next week.

Did you have anything we can, we cannot have anything if you

don't have anything. But do you have anything that

you like that you would like to share with the the 10s of people

who listen to our podcast? Yes, I do.

The 10s of people, they're out there, but we appreciate the

encouragement. I know there's people out there

who encourage us and and say that they really, really enjoy

the podcast. So we're grateful for that.

This, we're doing it for you. This is not, this is not for us.

This is not what I don't know. It could be a lot of things, but

it's none of those things. It's just simply for us to help

our church. Yeah, it is.

It's. Good.

It's it's a lot of fun too. That's that's one reason we do

it because it's fun. But another reason is because we

we have more we want to share, right.

But yeah, anyway, yeah, so things like.

The book I started re listening to, not reading, listening to is

called The Speed of Trust, The One Thing That Changes

everything by Stephen Covey. And so this is actually, I know

Stephen Covey's a guy that I should be reading more, but I

haven't really read much from him.

And this is the first book I've read.

I haven't even read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People yet.

Shame on you. That's.

That's on my. List but the speed of trust by

Stephen Covey and I just as a leader, I was interested in in

in listening to this book and learning about it because trust

is so important in leadership. And one of the things that

really struck me in the very beginning of the book is he

says. Trust.

Is confidence. When When people.

Have confidence in you as a leader, but on the negative

side, when you don't have trust, there's suspicion, and that

really struck me. And was a.

Sort of AI guess, a stark reminder for me as a leader and

I think anybody, right? Like in any one of our lives,

right? If you're a parent or if you are

at work, you know, are you a person that people have

confidence in or are you a person that people are

suspicious of? Right.

And we don't always get to decide what people think of us.

It depends on who they're talking to or what people are

saying. We so we don't always know that,

but you can do things that's at some point, right, With the way

you carry yourself and the way that you work and, and the way

that you live your life. Are, are you a person who, who

is trustworthy and, and who people can put their confidence

in? And if not, and if people are

suspicious of you working, working on ways to sort of bring

that back, how can you become a trustworthy person?

That's good. So, Stephen Covey, what was the

book title again? The speed of Trust.

The speed, yeah. The speed of trust, that's

really good, Really, really good.

So I was trying to think like I'm there's a couple things on

my mind right now. Christmas is coming around.

I'm not normally into Christmas until after American

Thanksgiving, but like living in Canada has made it seem like it

should come sooner. And so I've been thinking about

Christmas time a lot. I haven't mentioned this on the

podcast before, but it's the Savior is Born by Doctor Bill

Cook. It's I've been starting, I

started reading it and that book is just set up so well.

I think he has a way of, of teaching a topic that you're

familiar with and like a fresh way and helps you see it in a

really good way. Like the, the 1st chapter goes

to the genealogy of Matthew. And like if you read through the

genealogy in Matthew and the chapter one, you're like, why

are we getting all these names? And like he's got like 15 pages

on explaining like who these people are and why they matter.

And it's just, it's just super helpful like to get that like a,

a scholar's perspective with a pastor's voice.

I don't know if that's kind of like that.

I don't know if that makes sense, but like it's, it's very

intelligent. He knows what he's talking

about, but he's talking to me like I am a third grader and I

can, you know, I can read it and understand it.

And, and then there's a section in every chapter that that that

goes deeper. And so he'll like, he'll like

take a principle or something that that comes up in the story

of Jesus birth and he'll expand and go deeper and give you a

little bit more than you than you thought you that then he

could do in the chapter. So I I just really appreciate

him and. Just because he was my pastor

for so long, but also his he just has a way of like conveying

information in book form. I mean, he's a smarter than

anybody I know, but he can he can definitely like convey it to

us in a way that I understand. And so a savior is born by

Doctor Bill Cook or William F Cook on the title.

I'll put the I'll put it in the notes again.

Come in that to you for Christmas time.

Very, very good reference for us.

So that was my thing. I like this right now.

I've already said it on the podcast, which is crazy, but I

really like. I've had a chance to read it

now, so it's even more recommended.

Nice, nice. Yeah.

That's good. I I would love to read that book

too. It's always, like you said,

coming up to a time of year where.

You know, even thinking. As a pastor, you're, you're

almost tempted to, to not say anything because you just feel

like people tune out, right? Like you're going to sing

Christmas songs that, you know, everybody's heard 1000 times

before and not, not maybe more than 1000 times, right?

You, they're going to hear it 1000 times probably before we

sing it in church because people start celebrating Christmas a

month or two in advance, but then all over the years.

And so you just, you just assume that people are going to tune

things out. And so it is sometimes nice to

get a bit of a, a fresh spin or a fresh take.

I I know I've even heard of churches that will emphasize

some of the negative things about the Christmas story

because we so emphasize the positive things, right?

Like perfect. Little baby.

Who didn't even cry, right? The silent night.

Like whoever heard of a baby that didn't cry?

Yeah, exactly. And so you.

Emphasize all these perfect and everything was picture perfect

and the the little crib and I'm in the corner and there was nice

decor and all these like fancy things going on.

And it's like, yeah, what about Herod killing all the babies in

in Bethlehem? You know what about that?

What about Joseph Amir having to flee to Egypt?

You know, what about, you know, all these different things that

went wrong and there being no room in the inn and having to be

born in a stable, like. And so you take these like, so

I, I when I've heard those sermons, I'm like, that's

actually really interesting. Like, things didn't go the way

that they should have, right? That yeah, it was not a birth or

anything fit for a king, right. Doctor ELF, actually.

Doctor Jeff ELF back at home too, in their home church in

Louisville, he preached a sermon at Christmas time.

That was one of my favorite sermons ever preached.

And he brought something out about Herod and the and the, the

babies then. And I just thought, man, it's

such a good point and I'll try, I'll try to find that sermon and

link it too. It's it's a very good sermon to

listen to. And it was sort of taking

something that you haven't thought about, right.

Of course, Christmas goes. I have one more thing.

I like any when you you mentioned songs and then you and

I were talking about Christmas songs the other day and you're

not going to sing the song in church, but I will link it so

that people can hear it. Maybe you heard it already, but

it's called He who is Mighty. And just like the chorus of that

song talking about, you know. We we read all.

Through scripture about the might of the Lord, right?

The Lord of armies. You hear that in Psalms and and

then he says the, the the chorus of son says he who is mighty has

done a great thing taking on flesh and conquered death's

thing, shattered the darkness and lifted our shame.

Holy is his name and it's so cool to think about like Jesus,

who was there as the conduit of creation, right?

He's he's who with the the whole world, the universe was created

through. He's done a.

Great thing by taking on flesh so that he could conquer death,

lifting our shame and so that we can so he can be praised.

It's just an amazing thing to think about.

And so I wasn't always a lover of Christmas, but more and more

I am because it ushers in. I think it's fitting that we're

talking about the resurrection around Christmas as well because

without the resurrection, Christmas is meaningless.

And so I think it's just really, really good for us to to be

focused on the resurrection leading up in Advent as we

anticipate the birth of Christ, focusing on like what it all

means. Really, really cool.

The Lord worked that out for us. So, yeah.

And that's a. That song is based on Mary's

song. I don't know.

I don't know if you said that or not.

It's based on Mary's song in in Luke.

And so, yeah, just a beautiful reminder of of God bringing

beauty from the ashes. Maybe we introduce it.

At Easter. Maybe.

I'm just being. Stupid now, sorry.

It will It will get added. I'll, I'll say this, Lord

willing, if, if we're still around at some point, maybe

it'll be Lord willing and the Creek don't rise.

We will add that. Song 1.

Christmas. Nice.

That's really cool. OK.

So I don't have anything else for today.

I don't know if you do, but you wanted to add no.

No, I'm good. OK, well, we're going to do.

Something a little bit different today, instead of saying, hey,

LAMC, we appreciate you and we're praying for you.

I'm actually going to ask Pastor Joe if he would pray for us as

we close out today's episode. So Pastor Joe, would you pray

for us? Yes.

Lord, we're so. Grateful for the opportunity to

minister to these people. We are grateful that you have

called us as shepherds and we pray that you would help us,

help us as pastors to serve them well, to love them well.

We pray that that you would be with our church, all the

different things that that we have going on and then the

growth that we've been able to experience.

Or would you help us to to strive for community, for

relationship, that we want to go deeper and make connections.

And so we pray for our church that that they would take steps

and maybe going out of their comfort zone of inviting someone

over to their home for a meal or for a dessert or something and

just make a connection so that they can grow together in

Christ. And we do thank you for for all

the people and, and we pray, Lord, that you would continue to

grow us all together in Christ, that that you would build trust

and unity on the gospel that we are.

That is our central focus that the Christ died was buried and,

and was raised from the dead and, and all of the these vital

parts of our faith or that we are not trying to replace it

with anything else, but just simply trying to be faithful to

the gospel. Or would you help us, would you

unify us by the power of your spirit and help us as we seek to

build your Kingdom? And, and I just pray that this

Christmas season would be a blessing to our church and our

and our and our families that they would see the resurrection

as a as a vital part of that. And and put their faith and

trust in Christ and the gospel and the resurrection and and

that you would help them to live lives of boldness and courage

and faith and and sharing the message of the gospel around

this time when when people maybe are more open to hearing it than

others. Or would you give us a boldness

to proclaim Christ and Lord, Would you bear fruit in and

through our efforts as we share the gospel with others for the

glory of your name, We ask this in Jesus name, Amen.

Amen. Thank you, Joe.

Thank you, folks for listening to us.

We'll see you next week.