From Punk to Philosophy: Dan Koch on Music and Identity - Some Joyful Noises

Foreign.

Okay, coming at you. We're recording. Ray, Dan, ready to go.

All right. Whether it's Christian worship, Taylor Swift,

twenty one Pilots, or Far side Beck, or Remy Wolf, we're here to

discuss the music we love and enjoy. Welcome to another episode

of Some Joyful Noises, a member of the Anazzow Network, and

I'm here with Joshua Noel, the founder and brainchild of Some Joyful

Noises. I'm Will Rose, one of the hosts of Systematic Ecology,

occasionally on Some Joyful Noises and some other podcasts in

the Annazow Network. And we're here with a special guest, someone

that I've put a lot of hours in my earbuds and glad that we've

gotten to know through Tripp and through Theology Beer Camp, because

we're coming to you live from the Allerge Beer Camp. Dan Coke.

Dan, how are you doing, man? How you feeling today on day two.

Of the camp, Live and direct. Yes, I'm feeling good. First night

I got awful, awful sleep, but I sort of powered through the first,

you know, half a day and night, second half of the day, whatever

of what we got going. And today, last night I got really good

sleep. So today I'm like cooking with gas.

Nice.

Had a really fun session. That'll be on. Do you have permission

feed at some point. And I'm just hanging. I'm hanging for the

rest of the night, ready to talk tunes.

We're talking tunes. And I. Yeah. Dan is the host of. You have.

You're talking to. Which is another good name for a podcast,

but we can integrate it. That one works.

But.

But Dan. Yeah, Good Vibrations. Very good.

I'm feeling some good music podcast called Pretty Good Vibrations

that's probably a bit more relevant here.

And. And that's kind of. And it's part of. Part of why Dana's

here. I. I'll share that. Like, I have a lot of hours listening.

You have permission, and I have his intro to. You have permission

that you don't do much anymore. You different, right? Like

the original. The original intro.

Yeah, the long, long one.

Yeah, the long one. I would. I would occasionally play for my confirmation

class just to kind of share the kind of posture we have to faith,

which is you have permission to take the modern world and Christian

faith seriously. You can ask good questions. We hope not to give

terrible answers. And on a youth retreat, we. We usually show

like, you know, a movie of some sort. Maybe there's some religious

themes in it. We have them tease it out and talk about it. And.

And yeah, Braveheart that was my Star wars. Definitely.

My. In the 90s in American youth groups with the boys. It was

Braveheart season. My dudes.

Remember the Titans? No, no, no, no.

We would.

Okay.

But it was. But somehow William Wallace got us to the gospel.

I don't know how we got there. Yeah.

Sacrifice, Freedom. The screaming of freedom.

This was wild at heart.

Yeah.

Era sacred romance. Era Erwin McManus's early career. Barbarian

way, man. Well, I try not to throw up in my mouth.

I. So we. I played the intro to. To your podcast way at the beginning

of the retreat. We went all day, by the way.

That's very sweet. I appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And we went. We went all day. Then the next

day we showed the movie. And then in the movie, there was a particular

religious leader pastor who was being a dick and who was not

doing good things to. And at the end of the movie, I was like,

what? What was going on here? And Canon screamed out. He gave bad

answers to good questions. And I went, yes, Canon, you're paying

attention. I'm so proud of you. Training, which is training

material. So it's curriculum. Curriculum. But we are.

Yeah, yeah.

Shared language. And then we go, oh, yeah, that's what I'm talking

about. That's one thing that I. Attempting to do to provide for

people.

Yeah, yeah. And you do a good job. And I look up to that a lot.

So you said earlier that I was the brainchild. That's only, like,

partially true.

Okay.

This one.

Okay.

I. As you know, because it's also sort of what happened with sg.

Some people may not know what he.

Calls okay on the zombie podcast network, but I get this thing

where, like, I really want something to exist.

And.

And sometimes I just get aggravated enough that I make it

exist.

That's right. You manifest it.

What happened was like, Brandon Knight, also been a part

of, like, some Joeyful Noises, occasionally has some really great

ideas for, like, music podcasts he wants to do. And I'm

like, okay, yeah, you're on the network. Just. Just create the

show. He's like, I might one day. And he said that for, like,

about a year. I love you, Brandon, and I understand your life

is busy and I'm not trying to peer pressure you. But then Matthew

Winter had some ideas and I'm like, okay, cool, so let's make it

like, why don't we have a music podcast already? And then eventually

I was just like, you know what? We're just going to create

a show with, like, no format schedule or anything. And whenever

you guys Want to like do those shows you're doing, just like make

an episode and we'll just throw it on this so that.

So it's a show that has no rhyme reason was it no rhyme, no

rhythm, no reason.

I mean this podcast with no rhyme for them and no reason.

That's it. That's the tagline. Anybody can. No host, no schedule,

just hop on. And so we're. We're at the Alice Beer camp where

there's the intersection of theology, philosophy, the things

we geek out on. Music, a part of a community, a lot of the deconstructing

community. People who, who don't feel welcomed in a church or

part of a church but still resonate with the big questions around

faith, around science, around the modern world. Trip has created

community where, where they can gather not just in the earbuds

and listen to people talk deep stuff and big questions, but also

come together and, and share time with each other. And so that's

what we're. We're here doing. And part of this podcast, some dwarf

noises is acknowledging that music creates community, shapes community,

it shapes identity. And so that's why we have Dan here who is

getting. You're close.

Become a psychologist about a year from now. I should be a licensed

psychologist.

Yeah, licensed psychologist.

Final year of internship and then study.

And take a test and was a professional musician. Still part

of your vacation is creating music content for others and those

kind of things.

So you a tiny bit of that still. But mostly it's worth. Mostly

that's over. But yeah, I was toured in a band called Sherwood

for eight years. Put out records from 2004 till when we broke

up in 2010. We did a 2016 record as well. I've had a couple

other bands over the years. I did a project called Pacific Gold,

originally Wayfarer and that was like rewritten hymns. And if

you think that you'd really like that then you might really like

it. From my perspective it was like a half successful experiment

and a half failed experiment. It. Some things about it bug me but

I do know a lot of people who really like those records. So I won't

on my own.

Right.

And the last thing I did was a sampling based instrumental kind

of like chill dance record under the moniker Swim Club.

I did like that. That was good you let you shared that with folks

here for all your.

Patreons and that fits for me in like studying music. Like I have

a playlist of instrumental but has some.

I just had an idea nice vibes and.

And stuff, you know, so maybe there's.

Something on that record that I could use as an intro music to

my podcast I'm gonna do.

Really? Welcome to.

Okay.

I would love that.

All right, I'm gonna listen. So. So my ideas. I'm gonna have a

podcast called we're gonna laugh about this later about sharing

stories that weren't funny at the time, but later on we look back

and laugh on it. And. And. And yeah, we all have them. Well, that's

very. Like my bear encounter this summer. It was terrifying, but

now I look back and laugh at it. Let's not become.

We're going to laugh about this later.

Episode I want to podcast called yes, Regrets.

Huh. Okay.

What Then he just. Everybody come tell their worst regret and

maybe people will, like, laugh some. Some schadenfreude and then

also learn a little bit and maybe not make.

That's the idea of we're gonna laugh.

There's a functional problem with mine, which is people generally

don't want to talk about that.

Yeah. I wanted to be trying to figure.

Out what mine is now.

That's a good question.

Well, we're gonna laugh about this later is. I think, you know,

I'll probably have church members listen to it, so it'll be

PG13. So I don't like them, their air, their dirty laundry. But

we all have those stories. Like, yeah. At the time, not funny,

but we're allowed. So anyway, we're gonna talk. We're gonna have

some theme. Sean.

Cool.

Yeah. And so part of this also to talk about music community and

your experience with that.

Oh, I forgot to say there was a commercial composer. That's what

you were.

Commercial composer for about 10 years.

12 years.

Which is cool.

WR. Primarily used in advertisements, couple documentaries,

like, you know, indie films and stuff, but mostly ads. And that's.

And then that I worked my way through grad school now to become

a psychologist doing that.

So talking about music now, is there something that you're geeking

out on with music or in your earbuds or something right now? Something

you're like, I'm really hyped about this particular band.

Here's the problem.

Yeah.

Is it's not a good fit. Maybe for your listening audience. I don't

know. I. I would be curious to hear. Okay. But if you think I'm

right, we can. We don't have to linger here.

Okay.

Yeah.

But the band that I am just having a little mania over, Even

the Misfits.

Ah, sweet.

Yeah.

Yeah. I grew up skating and surfing. Yes. Yeah, I know. The Misfits.

Well, but.

So I didn't. I didn't absorb that band when I was getting into

old punk. So when I was in high school, I got into punk after

I was into Scott. And in that era, that's like Green Day, Rancid,

no Effects, like MXPX and the Christian Scene, Slick Shoes. But

a lot of those bands were really good at pointing back to the

earlier bands. And punk rock is not that big of a genre, so it's

not that hard to go back and do a little bit of work and, like,

roughly understand how it got from 1976 to 1996. It's not like,

it's not insurmountable for a teenager. So I did that, and I fell

in love with the Clash and I fell in love the Ramones. Yeah, and

I had a band. And I had a. I had two bands in college that were

Ramones themed. We had a silly band, like a humor, like, joke songs

called the Romes. We had a song Lord of the Gnome, Weird Alib,

Fellowship of the Gnome, and. And, like. And then we had a cover

band that we did only one practice, but it were actual Ramones

cover band, which led to Sherwood. Anyway, so ask a story

that I. But I missed the Misfits because I didn't have, like.

I didn't grow up watching John Carpenter films, like horror, like,

B movies.

We didn't.

We weren't like a big Halloween house, you know, you were

a little bit afraid of that stuff as well. And so probably in

that, at that age, I thought that that stuff was, like, quite

real and probably quite literal. And so something like Danzig

singing about killing babies, I was not capable at that time of

recognizing something that's campy, that is winking, that is,

like, doing a bit on old American culture and 1940s movies.

And, like, you know, like, I just didn't have that. So I just

thought it was serious. And I was like, well, this is probably

evil. And then I just kind of missed it for a while. And the recording

quality on Misfits Records is. I actually kind of love it, but it's

not. It's not, like, raw, big and clear and pleasing when you first

hear it.

And so even it's recording this punk human hell, they recorded

it.

And honestly, it's a lot like Velvet Underground recording techniques

and. And dancing was into Velvet Underground. And so it's actually

really more. It's so fascinating. I could geek out on

it a.

Lot, but, like, yeah, it was fun.

So I'm just, like, neck deep in Misfits mania. Right now and cool.

Having so much fun and like starting to worry a little bit about

how long it's going on.

It's funny because there are some there you. You catch ear or

you're turned on to a band you. You knew about or adjacent to

and then you, you really start listening to it a lot. You get it

and then you're like, okay, I'm burned out. But then you come

back to. Or whatever. Like music has that way of either sticking

with you for long term or you just have those phases and things.

For me, I, I like it that Instagram now you can put music to

post and those kind of things. And so I follow a lot of, you know,

surfers surfing, that kind of stuff. And so when, when these surfers

self promote and put their clips on Instagram of whatever session

they had, they'll put a, a song to it and just.

Like a rad old surf video.

Like a rad old surf video. Like, I used to love those surf videos

or surf movies that come out with a soundtrack.

Oh yeah, yeah.

But now they like curate their own content through Instagram. There's

different videos and stuff there. But I overheard somebody posted

and they used far side, the 90s rap band, as one of theirs. And

I've been going a deep dive into Far side and I even went to

charge. I want, I want this as my intro music. He's like, you probably

can't conversion. You probably have to pay a lot for that. I'm like,

okay, or just do it and see if they catch me. But that's. That's

from Too A Joshua. What about you? What's like something that doesn't

need your buzz right now.

A little strange. I talked about this on, on another episode

of the show, actually. But this band I really like, the Velveteers,

that I met them for, I was introduced to them when I went to

a Greater Van Fleet concert. They were the opener. I was kind

of drugged out for my wife. I don't care about where to go.

There's like two or three on the trip.

A lot of the stuff I'm like, I don't.

This.

I don't get the hype, but like some. There's a few like Broken Bells

I listen to at least once a week. I think that's a fantastic

song. Okay, but the thing with the Velvet Tears, I loved them. I

was obsessed. But they have like 12 songs. Like I'm exaggerating,

but they like very few songs so far. They're like. Because they're

a newer band, so like So I really burned myself on them quick.

But a couple of weeks ago, they released a new song, and I've

been kind of listening to that on repeat, and I'm going to burn

myself out again. But, yeah, I'm digging it.

Cool.

Yeah, cool. They're like an indie rock band, but the new song,

they kind of, like, decided that they were just going to fuse

some. Some funk in there and, like, this is.

This is great. Sweet.

Dan, you. You share a little bit of kind of, like, as a kid in

your upbringing and kind of the evangelical conservative.

Yeah.

But in terms of what led you, it was there a particular band when

you were younger that you connected to that turned you on to

becoming musician or to a band that led you to Sheerwood? Like,

was there something that you remember as a kid that you're like,

I like this music. I want to do this. I want music to be part

of my life, a vocation.

Yeah. I mean, it would be punk. And. And I'm not the first

person to say this, like, in. In any number of, like, the myriad

documentaries you can watch about, you know, Britain or. Or California

or whatever in those early years, but punk was the clearest.

It was the most accessible form of music for the least amount

of musical talent. You had to have a guy who could play the drums

pretty fast, and then you could turn the distortion up and

basically fake it till you make it.

Yeah, yeah.

Everywhere else, you know, and that if you go. If you get too good,

like, you actually do lose something with genres like that.

And so I was 14 when I joined my first punk band. And I.

What was the name of that band?

It was called Permanent Holiday.

Nice.

Yeah. And. And so I had been playing drums for maybe two years

or something, maybe three years, and I was good enough to be

in a local band and be a drummer. And then in. I got kicked

out of that bed because I didn't load the gear often enough.

It's so funny.

Good teenager.

And then. Yeah, it's a real character flaw, but, yeah, and then

I was in a band with my friends that they started, and I

joined pretty early and sort of became the singer, songwriter,

and, you know, kind of colonized the thing that they had

started, but we were called Ignorant Youth. And I do think it's,

you know. So it wouldn't have been any one band in particular,

I don't think. I think it was a number of those bands. And I think

what happened is it's a developmental timing. So I understand

music pretty mathematically, and I write music pretty mathematically.

And I think that there was a sort of level of math that I developmentally

got to. And then I was able to write songs, so I was able to apply

the math. My own. My own. And it was super derivative. And of course,

like, I'm actually just imbibing these chord progressions

and these melodies, and I'm just very slightly changing them

and whatever. At the beginning, you're doing a lot of

mimicking. But punk was a very smooth ramp because it was like,

well, I mean, he's turning this distortion up. It's like power

chords could literally learn how to do it in a couple days.

And most people come to those shows, they're just kind of like,

cool, go loud, go punk. They're not listening to the nuance

in the music.

Especially at a local show. Yeah, it's really about like, hey,

can we, like, jump around and, like, you know, can we get some of

this energy?

Marsh pit?

Yeah, yeah. In like, a positive way. And. Yeah, and so.

And I love that about punk, and I think that's why that was first.

Nice.

It's kind of as designed.

And I guess the progression of, like, bands like you. You start

a band because you like a particular genre or band, and you

kind of mimic that, and there comes a point when you become your

own. But then when did the song writing creativity, with that

process of your creative process of writing music, Wouldn't

you know, this is something like I'm good at and I can make a

living of this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to tour, I'm going

to. We're going to write songs, create songs. It's one thing

that I can listen to this song, say, I like this, but then.

Or I can learn how to play this particular song. I like is another

to like, I'm going to write my own. What?

Yeah. So just for context, because most people probably don't

know who Sherwood was, who.

Are listening, but, yeah, yeah, we got.

To, like, a medium level of emo success in the 2000s. Like, we

sold about 75,000 records over three albums, and we played about

800 shows. And we. We played Japan. We went to Europe three times.

Like, and when you came to Chapel Hill, you're like, I think

I've been here. Did I play? And I was like, did you play Cat's

Cradle and Carbon? You're like, yeah, I play Cat's Cradle,

Very famous place in North Carolina. Play Small shit Cat's Cradle.

And it was.

We did it.

Like, the best way to say it, it was our Full time job, but we

didn't save any money. You didn't have to have other jobs, but

we literally left the band with no savings. And so that's, that's

kind of what I'm referring to. And I didn't, I had no notion that

I could be good enough to do that. But our singer Nate, he basically

convinced me, he was like, we can do this. You are a good enough

songwriter and I'm a good enough singer.

And you were drums out there.

And at that point, I was playing drums at the beginning and

I was like, okay. And he, he was not a good enough singer yet.

I was not a good enough songwriter yet. So he's wrong about

that. Yeah, but he must. I don't even think he saw potential

in me. I think he just wanted to be in a band and I was his friend

and I was. And I was willing to try with him and I think that

that's perfectly fine. Yeah, that's how. I think that's the real

reason.

Yeah.

So I didn't know and so I didn't really find out until it got.

And we had a very slow, gradual rise to that mid level point.

So we did. We never had anything sort of overnight. It was

like we, we printed our own EP and sold about 7,000 of them. And

then we had a one album deal. They sold about 15,000.

Age of the CD. 12.

Yeah, CDs. Yeah, almost all CDs. And then at that point it was

only CDs. And then we put another one out and that sold like

40 and you know, like it. So it was like there wasn't like a big

change.

Right.

So I guess I figured I was pretty good. I actually, you know,

the probably truth is I probably thought I was better than

I was for a while.

For young adults sounds, you know, in a band. Yeah.

But you know, people, you get those first local like friends who

actually seem to really like the songs and are not just doing

it because you're their friend. And that's like the first

inkling of.

Maybe, okay, maybe we got something here.

And then I think there was like a, a kid I'd gone to high school

with who's a couple years younger who was like, hey, you know,

I got a copy of that EP you guys did. And I really like this

song. And you know, it was only that song that was any good,

but like, but that was. But that's enough if you get you one.

And there was something good in there and I think we refined it

later but like you get that those Little bits. And I think I'm

egotistical enough and narcissistic enough that I didn't

need a lot of that.

Right.

So I latched onto it, probably, and then it turned out

that I was good enough to do it at a pretty decent level, but

not good enough to do it at, like, a true success level. And I

genuinely think that. I think. I think I'm not that good of a songwriter.

I think I'm a pretty good songwriter.

Being a songwriter, playing a band, does that shift how you listen

to music? Now you listen because, like, as a preacher, I'll

go, I feel like I'm the same preacher, but I'm not going to, let's

hear somebody preach. I'm listening a different way than, like,

other. I'm like, why don't they make this movie when I do this?

Now, when you listen to music, you listen to misfits. When you're

big, huge Beach Boys fan, but, like, you do, you listen to other

music, you're like, yeah, I don't. I don't know what they did

there. What. That was a choice or that was not a choice, or.

Yeah, it's exactly the same.

Yeah.

And. But I think music is a more. It's more of an aesthetic experience

than listening to a sermon.

Right, Right.

So I. I would imagine that the sermon thing is analogous to, like,

an author. When they're reading other people's books. So

they know how a book is put together.

Structured.

Yeah, structured.

The point they're trying to make.

So they know they see a lot more in it than I see because I've

never written a book. So there's definitely that. Mostly,

I think that that just heightens appreciation. I think there

are. With a few exceptions, there are some mixes where I'm like,

I know how easy it would have been to fix this problem. Why is

there.

As a podcast editor, you realize, dude, why is that?

It's so much high end on the high hat. Like, it's distorting,

you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Interesting things like that. So occasionally there are things

that it's, like, really hard to listen to because it seems so

avoidable. But mostly I would say it's like, oh, I love how they

did that, you know, or something like that.

That's. That's cool. We follow up there. I know where I want to

go next, but let me think there. That sparked something for

you, Joshua.

I don't think you want to know what my brain went through.

Okay. There you go now. Sure.

Anyway.

Okay.

He mentioned that there was, like, he Said there was once all

that was any good in my brain just goes, yeah, that one episode

of Phineas and Ferb. And then my brain for a little bit just was

like, get you, get you goo means that I love you.

Yeah.

That is not. That is not the vibe right now.

I should stop. Well, where there's. Where there's album or.

Yeah, there's tv, there's like shows you watch and there's like

your favorite episode of the season, but you still like the whole

show. And there's definitely artists that you get their album.

You're like, man, I'm disappointed because there's only

really two songs I vibe with. But like I'm a big fan of Elbow.

Like they're. They put their, their music together and I love what

they do. But then the last couple albums I like there's two

songs. I really love the rest. I'm like, I kind of all sounds the

same. I'm like, what? What's going on?

I love Smash Mouth. And by that I mean those three songs are

great.

One of my.

I have whole bands like that. I think it's fine. Breakfast at Tiffany's

by Deep Blue something. I don't know any other Deep Blue something.

That's fine.

My idea is I think there should be a one Hit Wonder tour where

you have 20 bands and they all come out and play their one Hit Wonder

sounds like very economically. And then they just show up.

No problem.

I think we could pull it off. Let's try it. So. So moving to like

your, Your new mood vocation of like psychology and thinking about

music. And we talked about this. This podcast is in worship.

There's a reason that hymns are spiritual technologies that we

gather around communicating that we articulate our faith through

it.

Yeah.

How do you see like the concert experience, the music experience,

the gathering experience. How did music is a broad question. We

could talk all night about this, but in terms of how do you

see music shaping community? And then as a psychologist, how do

you see music helping people shape identity, identity politics,

who they connect with, all the, all those things. I think, I

think that's big. What music. Someone was like, oh, like that band.

Like music. Like to jam out. I like to get, you know, like to dance.

But then there's. There's. It creates culture, it creates music.

Is. Is also connected to a style, like a fashion style and an

aesthetic and to. Depending on the genre. There's sort of, you know,

more or less extreme of that. Like most. I would guess most like

a lot of metal, real metal fans you know, they wear black and

they have a. Not. I don't mean they're like goth walking through

the mall, their hair. But I can tell when I meet dudes that I'm

like, it's a metal dude that long. Yeah, that's. And. And you.

You know, and then you could obviously marry like gutter punks

and like, you know, there's like the sort of. Almost the clown

version of it.

Right.

Or like ICP fans or whatever, you know, but there is something

associated, you know, you associate top 40 with like, kind

of high fashion and kind of, what's it. The prevailing looks of

the day, country music. You know, you've got your cowboy boots

and. And hats. You have different. You know, so that is actually,

I think as a training psychologist, I think that that's

actually a big part of what is so powerful about music in those

particular developmental years when we are defining our own identity

among options. And that's generally thought of as adolescence.

Yeah, yeah.

And so there's something going on there because it. I. I think that

what drew me to punk was. Was not only musical, you know, it's.

It was aesthetic too. I think I liked it. I. You mentioned surf

videos. I think a lot about surf and skate videos from the 90s.

Yeah.

And like, you pop in that VHS or later a DVD and like, and it's,

you know, it's a good riddance track and no effects track. And then.

Whoa, who is that? Oh, that's the Clamps. Like, who are they? And.

And like you discover, like, think about that. The act of sitting

around with my buddies watching a skate video, that's not

a identity neutral activity. It's all being. The music is coming

in and confirming. It's like. It's like a brace, you know, it's

like coming around and supporting the other identity formation

that's already happening around visuals around. Maybe my buddy

skateboards and I'd be AMX bike. We like that activity. So we're

sharing activities. We use the lingo of this subculture now. We

have shared language. Yeah. You know, so I'm figuring out who

I am or whatever, and then the music is like baptizing me into that

broader. Those broader sets of cultural things. And I think that's

why music. Maybe that I'm. Now I'm riffing. But I think that maybe

why music is so powerful is that it actually just goes so deep

for people. There are maybe some people that it is mostly window

dressing, but a lot of people go a lot deeper with music than that.

And you Know, I don't know what the numbers are, but I would

believe it's more people than, like, for instance, really like to

read novels or even really love movies. I bet you there's more

people who really love a particular kind of music.

I. At risk of having myself psychoanalyzed, I won't really. What's

really interesting, though, you're bringing that up, and I'm,

like, flipping through my own experiences. And so I was growing

in a household where, like, Until I was 18, the limits of my

music was Christian and Disney. And I am not a rebellious

person by nature. So, like, like, the one outlet, like, I had,

my aunt would play the.

Shrek soundtrack for me.

So I heard Smash.

Yeah.

But, like, I think it's so interesting, like, because now I'm,

like, analyzing myself. Like, is that why I love Disney so much?

Is it, like, that's the only mute? Because I didn't like Christian,

the only thing I was allowed to listen to. So I'm like, you are.

I know every word of, like, every Disney song from, like, the

1940s all the way through today.

You listen to the Hercules soundtrack still? Oh, yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah.

Well, one thing about that is the quality differential, because.

Yeah. You know, and Disney, actually. I mean, my first thought

is, oh, a Disney song is like, a thing. But when I think about it.

Well, actually, a lot of Disney films, like, set in different

times and places with sort of different scores and soundtracks.

Yeah, we. You know that maybe the Aladdin and Lion King songs by

the mid-90s are okay. There's, like, a famous duet, then they go

for the Grammys, and they, like, they had. They had come to

that. Did come to that format by then. Well, you got the Robin

Hood soundtrack, which is. Which is gold to me.

I definitely do Whistle Stop around my house at least once.

I did. I used to sing it. I used to whistle it to our firstborn

all the time and play ukulele. I wonder if it's like, the old. Most

of Christian stuff is worse. And so Disney. But Disney, depending

on whatever genre Disney's doing, they're gonna do their version

of it, but it's going to be done at an extremely high level.

They are going to hire Gershwin because they fucking can.

You know, like, they're going to. They're going to get hammers,

you know, Bernstein and whatever. I don't know about a big

musical. Sky. Yeah. So, like, the best in the biz. Yeah, yeah.

I didn't.

The other side and I'm sorry.

No, no. This is interesting.

Like, it's so interesting because, like, I was thinking about

that, and then the.

Other part was so Rogers and Hammerstein. Okay, sorry.

Got it. Sorry. He did not look that up. It came to his head. He

did not look on his phone. I watched it happen. Is that live action?

Live action?

No, but, like, so.

So when I'm.

I'm still, like, learning songs I should know and, like, regular

references.

You're filling in gaps, like, regular references.

People are making, and I just, like, shake my head, and they're,

like, referencing, like, you too, and I'm like, that is a letter

and a number.

Uhhuh.

Yeah.

I grew up with you too.

I love.

Now I'm psychoanalyzing. You go. That's why. That explains a lot,

Josh.

But listen, time, like, the stuff that gravity, I guess, like,

with the. Like, the clothing and stuff must match, because I'm

recalling the time, like, early when I met my wife. Like, the

first drive we did. She just straight up goes, you know, you look

like someone who listens to Passenger. And, like, I've wondered

a long time.

What that meant without. Without ass. Without, like, anyone

telling you. Now, that could have just been chance. Yeah, but.

Or you could have tacitly picked it up and sort of recognized

a trend of other people who are affiliated with this thing and

then go, I like that. I. That sounds like that looked good.

Yeah, I think it could be.

And I've just.

I've been doing a lot of thinking through what makes Passenger

different from other folk music. His stuff is a lot more philosophical.

Like, a lot of folk music is like, you're angsty. Oh, I'm sad

about. By whoever you lost. And, like, real life stuff, and I

love that stuff too. But, like, his stuff is usually you get

stuff like, you know, you never know you love her till you

let her go. You get life for the living, so you might as well

live it, or you're better off dead. Like, you get these, like,

really philosophical ideas. He's very much an existentialist,

and I think what it was is, like, when I'm 18, was also the first

time I've ever introduced other religions. I started taking

philosophy classes. And then here's the one who's speaking philosophy.

He's given language.

This is good.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I like, because I. My. My kids are in college, and so my oldest,

22, Hannah, is huge music buff, loves music. And she's at age

now where I'm super proud, because she's like, dad, I think

you like this. Oh, I'm listening to this. Have you heard

this? I think you would like it. So she knows my style. And I'm

like, I'm so proud of you. You know me. But also, you have good

taste in music. I feel like I was a good parent. Like, they. There's

things. But she also has this ownership thing that if other people

start liking something that she like versus, like, she gets like,

no, no, that's my band. That can't be your band. You know what?

She. She loves Gray Van Fleet now. And I. And I was like, oh, I

saw that with Trip. And she was like, you saw them in concert?

What do you mean? And you didn't tell me? Like, no, I thought

this is my band. Like, wait a minute. Why, why. Why is this. So

there's also this kind of psychological of ownership. This

is me. This is my identity. This is what is happening. And you

know, do I want to invite you to be a part of that part of my me

or not? And so her inviting me, like Remy Wolf, she's like, dad,

this is my new favorite artist. I really think you like her.

And so some of those songs have been jamming out really hard.

I'm like, you're. I think you're right. This is really good

music. And yeah, she's got enough, you know. Do you know Roomy?

Well, I do. I. I was telling you last night, I love I Don't remember

hello, hello and the song Liz and yeah, I did. I dig her. I think

I like the sing the earlier singles more than I liked the record

when I heard first full length. But she's incredibly talented.

Incredibly. Yeah. And you know, I'm a back fan too. So if you

can mix, get your kind of funk on and in. In bass line, but then

do like switch up and do like a string. Your head was a string

composer, so it's like bust out really methodic strings and cello.

You got me. You got me. Yeah, yeah. And I. I think that's important

as we. As we share joyful noises and to talk about music, go

a little deeper. It is important you understand how it can

hit our identity, but also the communities we are a part of and

those kind of things too. So it has been interesting to see, you

know, here at the Alice Beer Camp. Tripp, you know, he's a theater

kid, preacher's kid, but also loves karaoke, loves getting up there,

youth pastor at heart. But that music, like, you're inviting

people to sing karaoke with you, but then you also have a music

artist sing for you, and they're having these music Breaks

the band between these. They're trying to mix up all the

senses with that kind of stuff. It's just part of who we are

and what we're doing.

So even the people who are playing, like, I think he was really

intentional with, like, the identity process because you have,

like, Kevin Max, who's gone through, like, the deconstruction.

So the deconstructionists are out, Right. And then today we have

IG King and Flamey Grant. So you have that, like, the queer community

and that, like, identity point there, too. So I think that intentionality

was really.

Yep.

Trip is so smart.

It is cool. Well, thanks, Dan. I think there's one question here.

Question. Go for it. Around the identity stuff, because we're

talking about how, like, a lot of times it's. We find the songs

that we're already kind of identifying with those groups. But

I think sometimes you see those songs that break through. So

specifically, I'm thinking of, like, better Love than the song that's

literally just. It's the numbers for the Suicide Hotline.

And both of those got really popular. And I watched people who

were, like, evangelical adjacent squirm because you have

these songs that are, like, really clearly making some strong

cases for not being dicks to the queer community. And it's like

this song, but I. You know, so they're still playing it, but I feel

like it kind of broke some barriers there. Like.

Yeah, I think media plays a part. I mean, there is, like, a theory

in sociology that, like, Will and Grace is, like, a big reason

that, you know, more gay marriage reform and stuff was able

to get, like, more popular support. People talk about, you know,

portrayals of certain characters, like the movie Philadelphia

also, like, possibly playing a pretty big role in, like, acceptance

around HIV and homosexuality and all that stuff where Denzel Washington,

like, plays the character who has some stuff to learn about that.

And we identify with Denzel Washington. We like him a lot, you

know, and so, like, having movie stars kind of do that. I think

all that stuff really does have an effect. I think the strongest

effect, though, when people change their mind about things like

queer affirmation or whatever is. Is friendships. And ultimately,

like, the thing I hear more than anything else was, I have these

queer friends. You just. You cannot tell me that they are any

less loving or, you know, that. I just cannot see for the life

of me how they're anyway, less than in, like, God's eyes, because

I know them. They are my close friends. And I think that I trust

more.

I trust them.

Trust. I trust Them more than you person that I have this conversation

with, I think that's implied. And, and it's like yeah, so. But,

but I do, I do think media, including music plays a role. Okay.

And there's an edge. You go swinging it back around to punk.

Like there's a way of like push the edge, push the envelope.

You're gonna break boundaries. Like there' going to, we're going

to be edgy. So there's that, that the lingo around. Like oh, they

sold out because they went mainstream. Or what about like the

deep cuts and pushing the edges? So yeah. How do you make change

how you shape community? Do you want to make money in a living?

Do you want to sell out because you want to be, you know,

sell arenas or you going to still punk.

Stuff like is really childish and immature and I don't, I don't

vibe with it anymore at all. I probably vibe with all of it when

I was 15, didn't discriminate. But now some of it is like, you know,

the more like boots on the ground sociopolitics of like advocating

for the poor and stuff like that. I think that stuff always really

resonated and still does in the way that some of the, you know,

anti system stuff now to be just sounds like teenagers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't, I don't find much meaning in it anymore.

But you know, and for me it was like 90s rap. Like whether it's,

you know, Public Enemy or, or whatever. Like I as a, you know,

upper class white surfer kid, like listen to 90s rap. They. They

were pushing me to think through kind of like systemic racism

but not understanding it and trying to figure out what they're

saying. This kind of hip hop spoken word poetry about, you know,

what's going on, their communities. And I just thought was

cool because it had a good beat and you know, I'm. I won't.

I wish that that song could play in my clip in my surf video.

I want them to play that song when I did it. Like what would be

my song in my, in my video? And something about. But yet behind

all that they have a message of trying to express what's going

on, their communities and lives.

Opening a whole new culture to you that you would have had no access

to. I think it's funny, we used to like kind of make fun of

the white kids who were really into rap. Yeah, it was like a. You

guys must be pretending or. I think it was probably what we thought

like something about it seemed fake. Seemed like a Seemed like a

show. Not us punks with our mohawks. We're not putting on a show.

But, like. But I. Now I. It makes a lot more sense to me. I'm

just like, oh, like, it brought, like, a life to the suburbs.

Like, it's like this whole other exciting world.

Yep.

Whether or not it's, you know, real or being exaggerated or whatever,

like, it's not what this life looks like, and it's this. It's like

a. Not just escapism. It's a genuine incursion of another culture

into this kind of sealed suburban culture.

You know, breaking down walls. Like, Walk this Way with Aerosmith

and Run dmc. Literally breaking down the wall and coming

together. Yeah.

I got a weird connection point with that of, like, nervous. Kind

of makes me think of, like, nervous.

Okay.

No, no, I mean, like, how weird.

Yeah. How weird.

Went to Doctor who naturally.

Yeah. Okay. That tracks.

Because a lot of what the doctor does is he's just, like, traveling

places. Not because he's, like, trying to save the day or do

some, like, heroic mission. He's just like, whoa, look at what

people were like in Shakespearean England. This is freaking

cool. You know, he's just like, let's just hang out here and

see what people are like.

I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued. Yeah.

He's, like, doing this kind of stuff.

Arm. It's armchair anthropology. Armchair travel kind

of a thing. Yeah.

And it's great. And I feel like since my theology has kind of,

like, been developing the last few years, and I've got to this point

of, like, I don't feel like I need to, like, win souls to Christ.

And instead I'm like, wow, God is in everyone. I just, like, have

this, like, really passionate drive to, like, curiosity.

Curiosity. Yeah.

The airport. I'm just, like, in this random local bookstore in

the airport, and I'm like, hey, this person is willing to talk

to me.

What is the one book here that.

Most resonates with you? And I want to just experience it because

that was.

Meant something to you.

And, like, you're someone made in the image of God. And that's so

cool. And, like, I feel like I did the same thing with music. Like,

even, like. Even though might not be my favorite, like, my wife

loves them. So, like, every now and then I'm like, I'm going

to listen to this and, like, try to hear it, like, through her

ears. Because, like, that resonates with another person made

in the image of God, like, who is also my wife, which makes it even

Cooler.

But you know, yeah, I want to understand you through your music

because if this is a part of you and it's important to you, then

I want to understand, yeah, why is it for you? But also like,

maybe I'll vibe with it, maybe I won't. But yeah, that's good. Well,

let's wrap this up, Dan. All right. On this, you put on this headline,

recommend one Christian artist. One artist outside of normal

Christian or pop culture. So at the end of our episodes we do

recommendation well, like ecology or others. Is there a reckon

one not Christian? Is that what for Somebody's in the. In the

music game and, and let's. And admires. I admire that, you know,

how much you, you love music and no music. Is there a recommendation?

It could be Christian, non Christian, but is there something

that you would recommend for folks that are listening to this

are like, oh, go check out this band. And it could be Christian.

Could not. But if there is, you know, we're at the Ellis Beer

camp. If there's a connection to like deeper theological, philosophical

questions, then why not?

I got one.

Okay.

There's a indie power pop band called Not A Sir and as in like.

S E N A D A space.

S U R F. They had a. Like, they were kind of a one hit wonder

initially with a song called popular in the 90s that had this

like spoken word verse.

Okay.

Very weird. But then they basically had this kind of power

pop career which is like, you know, comes out of the Birds and

Big Star and like it's taking. Yeah, taking some of kind of Beatles

and 60s British invasion like pop songwriting and then but like

updating it with distorted guitars and. But Matthew the. The

singer and songwriter of God of Surf, he. He is like, he has like

a philosopher's mind and like is. Seems to be like engaging in

some kind of spirituality, certainly engaging with like deep

meaning questions and is a really great poet and cool. I think

that. I think there's some kind of Eastern. I get kind of an

Eastern vibe sometimes. But there. He has so many songs that

touch on really deep, deeply resonating themes for me as like

a. As a person, as a liberal Christian. But like from this, one

of their big songs is Always Love. Hate will get you every time.

And there's other stuff about like. There's a song that I feel

like started as a compassion journal project where he was supposed

to take the perspective of like an animal song called Fruit

Fly.

Okay.

Where it's like, you know, he. He like takes on the perspective

of a fruit fly who no longer has any, like, fruit and is running

out of gas and, like, what can you do but go on? And then, like,

then it's like, well, that's obviously a human thing too. And

he's just really. He's just operating at a very deep level. And

he's a great pop songwriter and a great singer. So that's my

recommendation.

Nice. Great recommendation. And we'll recommend Good Vibrations,

pretty Good Vibrations, where you go and walk through some music

you like or listen through. There's even tournaments. There's

battles, tournaments, tournaments. Gamified, but pretty

fun. So it's a. You know, again, you. You podcast different

areas of your life, but that you're like, one of your ideas. Like,

I really want to do this music podcast and share with you all because

if I don't tell somebody, if I is for fun, if I don't sell somebody,

I gotta tell somebody because it's inside me and I gotta share

it with the world. So a lot of that stuff as we go there. So, yeah.

Dan, thanks. Thanks for being a part of this. Thanks for hanging

out with you and glad that we made some connections through mutual

friends. And I'll keep listening to your stuff.

I know.

That's for sure. Joshua, how do you. How do you close out this?

Some joyful noises. Where's your closing? I don't think it matters.

Should we make no rhyme, rhythm, or reason?

There isn't format. But you want to stay noisy, though. Is that

kind of what you want to do?

We could stay noisy.

I think we could stay.

You want to keep it noisy?

Let's keep it noisy. Or stay with. Let's. Let's just stay noisy.