An Exploration - Class in the Local Church | Jason Roach, Maegan Webb, Kevin Croft | School of Theology 2026

There is, God willing, a quote on the screen

from a woman called Jackie Pullinger. She said

this, don't tell someone about Christ unless

you're willing to give them your bed. Jackie

Pullinger is a missionary in Hong Kong, mainly

reaching out to those who are recovering from

drug addiction. And her simple point was that

the call to follow Christ is a call to become

part of Christ's family. And so the implication

for us as Christians is to be ready to be that

family for others. And the reality is that the

bigger the differences there are between us and

the people we call, then sometimes the bigger

the demands that can place on us. Certainly different

demands are placed. on us and we want to think

together today about what it looks like to put

philippians 2 4 into practice to consider the

interests of others before our own to be people

who put hospitality into practice to welcome

others into our space so that they might become

our friends We've heard already that class is

a difficult thing to pin down, doesn't stand

still, it's elusive. And yet it is this word

that categorizes us along economic and cultural

lines. And we want to dig into some ways in which

we can navigate that. So you've heard a little

bit from Megan and from Kevin. Just say a little

bit more about what your roles involve before

we move on. So Megan, start us off. Yeah, so

I work in Camden and Islington and my role has

a special focus on working with people on council

estates and with seniors. I grew up on a council

estate myself in North London and I didn't have

a Christian influence for over 30 years. So I've

got a particular passion for reaching people

in the context like the one that I came out of.

Yeah, and as well as looking after South London,

I have the privilege of overseeing our council

state and seniors ministry. Elsewhere exists

to be igniting a movement of mission in the local

church. And so our missional teams are working

alongside other churches to help them to reach

out. onto communities like estates the two and

a half million people that are living on social

housing of some sort and yeah just being equipped

to share the gospel and to do life with people

living in those communities we want to stress

that our sins are like scarlet we are people

who've made mistakes who are still making mistakes

and yet we're here today because we believe that

Jesus has washed us whiter than snow and we want

to be part of the conversation, not because we

have got it right and always have done things

perfectly. We're learning and on a journey along

with you guys. And just putting that into practice,

I wrote this little book a couple of years ago

on crossing cultures for church leaders, talking

about class and different things. And one of

the first things I say in that is that the first

sermon I gave on a council estate to people walked

out and said they'd never come back to church

again. The first evangelistic event I put on

as I planted a church and a council estate, I

thought it'd be great to call it tiramisu. This

seemed like a really good idea. The one guy gets

the irony up there. And I guess that just shows

how I was importing a way of life that I had

inherited and learned, even without realizing

it, into my ministry. And we can all do that.

And as Matthew said earlier, we want to learn,

pick up on those blind spots. And the particular

theme that we want to think about together now

is the theme of communication and how communication

can act as an invisible barrier within church

life. And we're going to look at that through

three lenses, through the lens of personal interactions,

through the lens of the way that leaders interact

with one another. And then finally, through public

teaching. And the way that we're going to do

that is we're going to hear three fictional dramatized

dialogues. OK, so you're going to hear this fictional

dramatized dialogue. Think about the archers.

Think about EastEnders. That's what we're talking

about. But it's only three minutes and you're

going to hear it and then we're going to discuss

it. We're going to use it as a basis for our

discussion. So let's see if the technology works.

We're going to go straight into the first one.

Yeah, we might actually be in Brighton over half

-term. Yeah, a uni friend of mine lives down

there now. Said we should come down while the

kids are still, you know, young enough to enjoy

it. Nice. We'll be in Manchester. My old housemates

planted a church up there. Be good to see what

God's up to. What about you, Mark? Um, not sure

yet. Probably just staying local. Ah, nice. I

feel like there's something really grounding

about that, you know. Greg and David move on.

Mark stays where he is for a moment. Yeah, grounding.

Have you tried the oat milk? It's actually not

bad. Okay, we'll look at this example. Perhaps

you can get it. There's something about geography

here, okay? And how geographical place can cause

tension. and confusion. I want to be clear, we're

not intending to make a moral judgment about

where your friends live and whether it's okay

for them to live close or far away. We're picking

up on something that came up a little bit in

the last session, David Goodhart's somewheres

versus anywheres sort of motif. And that paradigm

basically says this, that somewheres are rooted

locally and find their identity through local

belonging, whereas anywheres are mobile. and

find their identity mainly through achievement.

Now, you can't push that too far. Matthew's already

touched on that. Another reason you can't push

it too far is thinking about diaspora communities

who have a strong sense of place locally, but

also a sense of place and connection with people

who are in another place. See, that's an example

of where this idea breaks down. But our experience

is that some communities have this hyper local

focus. So a friend of mine, Chris Rogers, is

over in East London. He says he would identify

himself as working class as a pastor. And he

says that the way that he thinks about his own

way of moving through the world is reputation

earned through reciprocity for the sake of reliability.

Reputation. So he's trying to. maintain his social

status with those around him and he does that

through reciprocity can be given take of interacting

with people locally and he does that because

he's learned over time that when the gas meter

gets to zero or you need money to buy some chips

it's people who are local who will be able to

help you out and so actually his life is focused

on being local reputation with his close colleagues

through reciprocity, what they do for one another,

for the sake of reliability. When things go wrong,

there's someone who can help you. And so we want

to move to a time of discussion. And the first

question is, how do we address this kind of lack

of rootedness that some of our congregations

can have in church life? Yeah. I think I want

to start off with just some pastoral honesty.

I think that the hyper -local focus of estates

and being there, rooting in a community, and

the difficulty that sometimes, even if you're

a little bit further away from those communities,

that can have the impact that can have on church

life and family life. So real life, I suppose,

example for us at the church that... an elder

out in Vauxhall. We had a local Eritrean family.

We had seen them wonderfully. Yeah, the mum comes

to faith, then the dad comes to faith. They're

three boys. They all live in a one bedroom flat.

It was a tight squeeze. And eventually they were

able to find another flat with a little bit more

space. It was only a mile and a half away from

where we are in Vauxhall. But that mile and a

half has just created some difficulties in them

just being involved in everyday life. Yeah, in

the church family, in all honesty, they probably

feel a little bit more separate from the church.

family and i think it's just that honesty of

understanding how much sort of the the local

focus and just being in every everyday life and

just bumping into people when you're going to

test goes does make a big difference and it and

it helps us i suppose when we think about church

life not just speak the gospel but live out the

gospel in the way that you're under the gaze

of yeah yeah watching eyes as you can in a local

focus okay so there's something about being local,

helping us to disciple one another. And I think

of a woman who we all know who came to faith

recently. I call her Rebecca. She was in prison

for a long time through the evangelistic work

that happened in that prison. She became a Christian.

She's out now. And her sense was, speaking to

her over lunch recently, was that I need, once

a week is not enough. That was her phrase, once

a week is not enough, by which she meant going

to a Bible study once a week for some kind of

discipleship wasn't enough to keep her going

and to keep her from falling back into the old

patterns that she had escaped from being liberated

from in Christ. And I know you've got a story

off the back of that, Megan. Yeah, so I have

a friend who was saved when he was in prison.

And whilst he was in prison, he was having that

kind of daily faith. support journey. There were

various prison ministries going into prison,

conducting Bible studies and small groups and

the Sunday service. He was having a Bible study

with other prisoners on his wing and it was a

daily input every day. And he was reading the

Bible avidly. He wanted to get plugged into the

church as soon as he came out. But what he found

was he had this picture of the early church in

the book of Acts, and he thought that it would

be a replication of what he had experienced in

prison. And when he came out, he just didn't

find that. And it really, yeah, it really disappointed

him. OK, and I remember having a conversation

with Matthew in the lead up to this, and he mentioned.

The wisdom that you see in morning and evening

prayer within the Anglican life of the church,

a rooted daily expression of the gospel that

people can come to, whether they can even read

or not, that is there for people. That's not

necessarily the model for everyone, but it's

just striking that there's a sense in which that

meets a need that actually is sometimes there.

Let's move on to... the practical impact that

this can have in shaping church life. I know

that midweek groups can work differently in this

kind of context, Kev. Yeah, and I think when

we use that language of midweek groups, we're

not talking just about Bible study. I suppose

that the wider ministries that some of our churches

will be able to offer as a way of... bridging

the gap just between the only thing we can invite

someone to is a Sunday service. And some of these

ministries that give the opportunity for people

to start building relationships with Christians

in their local community and sort of feeds off

the back of what Megan's saying is they need

more than just, yeah, a meeting, one meeting

a week. I suppose one of the things that we've

identified is that... There is the danger, though,

of people that are around in the week being able

to be involved in these midweek ministries, as

opposed to then some people that can, because

of work or family commitments, only be there

on a Sunday or maybe make one midweek meeting

a week in the evening. And so you end up... Sometimes

with the danger of two different congregations,

you've got the people that feel happy and more

comfortable in a midweek setting in some of the

outreach events that we'll be doing. And then

they come to church on a Sunday and then they

just see this completely new group of people

that they just have limited interaction with.

One lady said to us about one of the midweek

ministries that we run on a Friday. church for

me with me and sort of thinking that's an aspect

of what it means to belong to church but it's

not it's not sort of the whole sort of picture

it's not that when you come on a friday it's

not the whole gather church um yeah on a on a

sunday and it's we're just trying to work out

what that looks like for us in our context and

it's because the cultural gap is smaller one

of the reasons is the cultural gap is smaller

coming to that session on friday morning, afternoon

even. Lunch. Lunchtime. Coming to that session

feels like a smaller cultural leap than coming

even on a Sunday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I suppose

in one sense, there will be maybe more people

from a similar context because it's, again, more

hyper -local focused, people that are there midweek.

I suppose there is a similarity, as it were,

for quite a lot of the people that will be coming

along. Okay. Megan, you wanted to say something

about the flip side of this, how we draw people

in as a first step. Yeah, I think maybe not looking

at it as a negative that they are viewing that

as church, but viewing it more as it is a step

towards church. And that it can be an opportunity

to actually broaden that network of support,

a network of contacts that they have through

that first initial step of a group like that,

introducing them to more people from the wider

church body so that when they do make that step

into church, it's more comfortable. Yeah, thank

you. Now, one of my colleagues made a really

interesting point as we were talking about this

in the preparation. His observation was that

in his church, which is really mixed across class

and cultural lines, that there are some people

who from a middle class background have made

a commitment to be part of that church for a

number of years. And then after a period of time,

feel a real sense of emotional struggle. And

it's partly because. They feel like their closest

friends who are most like them have moved away

and they then feel a sense of loss from that.

And my colleague's observation was that this

raises the issue of us, if you're from a middle

class background, administering in an environment

where it's very cross -cultural, where maybe

reaching into a different kind of class and counting

the cost of that. counting the cost of that they're

recognizing that actually that's going to be

painful and that sometimes his observation is

that people haven't really counted the cost of

what that will mean long term to make that step,

to do that. And it raises, I guess, two questions.

You know, how do we prepare people to do that

if that's our context? But secondly, how do we

deepen relationships with the people who we are

ministering to? The reality is those people who

are in our churches should be our family. So

how do we deepen those relationships so it doesn't

feel such a wrench, such a loss? What do you

say to that, Megan? Yeah, I intend a... Central

London Church is a gathered church and most of

us travel in to church, which I think is quite

a common thing for Central London churches now.

And so I've been really thinking with the leaders

about what our small groups look like and who's

attending them, who's attending which groups,

because we've got a number of groups. Some which

meet in people's houses, some which meet online,

some are a hybrid, some meet utilizing this church

building and thinking about who's going to those

groups. What the makeup of those groups are and

what makes some of those groups more or less

accessible to people who live in social housing

or in more from a more vulnerable, marginalized

background. So we were looking at some of the

groups have a much more traditional kind of structure.

So a short time of introduction, catch up. followed

by quite a formal Bible study looking at a set

of questions that come from the text that links

to the sermon from the Sunday. And those groups

don't tend to be very diverse in their makeup.

The pastor has actually pioneered a new kind

of model from his small group. So it's much more

focused on connection. So he's flipped that.

that structure on its head really. So they meet

and the focus is on connection. So that instead

of having a 10 -minute quick catch -up, the bulk

of the small group is focused on that catch -up.

So they eat together, but it's a two -course

meal. And between the two courses, they would

then share communion. They would then maybe share

a proverb or a psalm. engaged together in conversation

about that over dessert and then they'd finish

with prayer for each other um and then we have

another quite specific small group that has taken

a bit of both and it's really interesting because

the makeup of that group is um like it's completely

the people who come from social housing and vulnerable

marginalized backgrounds um and so they actually

have have made the decision to meet twice a week

rather than just once a week and the first meet

is after the sermon on a Sunday where they just

meet to connect and then the midweek group they

follow on from that connection but they also

then look together at scripture and what they

found is that the people in that group are very

comfortable to all share together because they

all come from very similar backgrounds there's

no kind of their morals filled that group and

actually some of the people that have connected

with church but then might not be attending on

a regular basis they are attending that small

group both times a week and they're connecting

with each other outside of that group as well

so it shows that that model is really working

for those people. Fantastic okay I think I'm

going to move us on to scenario two. And the

power is in my hand. Okay, let's go. So, the

WhatsApp group. Yeah, I've been reading it. Don't

think it's all that bad. I mean, yeah, it's a

little bit messy. But at least he's saying what

he feels rather than just letting it fester.

But he said it to 60 people. I know. Let's be

honest. People tiptoe around conflict for years

in churches. He's hurt. And he's naming it. If

we clamp down now, we're teaching him honesty

just gets punished around here. Public naming

isn't the same as honesty, though. It's already

landed on people who had nothing to do with it.

I've had two messages this morning from people

who don't even know how this started. They're

just caught in it now. I'm worried that if we

let this run, we multiply the damage. Or... We

let it breathe. Trust the spirit can work for

an open conversation. Let's be honest, people

have seen worse on a WhatsApp group. But this

isn't banter that got out of hand. Someone's

been named. And the people reading it, they didn't

sign up to be an audience for this. Some conversations

need walls, not a stage. Agency matters, yeah?

But so does pastoral responsibility. If we don't

step in, we're effectively saying that... Going

public on the group is an acceptable way to handle

being hurt. Okay, what we're dealing here with

is a different scenario. It's differences in

communication style that are playing out among

the leaders who are having a conversation here,

but also playing out amongst the congregation

online. And how do we manage that? Now, of course,

you don't know all the details of the scenario,

but we're thinking about the communication and

how that... works out um there's an interesting

observation from uh one of our lcms that people

who often are pretty outspoken don't necessarily

last long in their church and i guess the question

is how do we manage that how do we navigate that

over to you kevin yeah i mean i suppose feeding

first and foremost off the of our first sort

of session or our first discussion, as we get

to know people and as we spend life with people,

we understand a little bit more about the situation

and a little bit more about their history. And

so when a scenario like this happens, the better

we know our congregants, we can sort of think,

okay, is this a hurting sheep? Is this someone

that... either intentionally or unintentionally

has been hurt by someone and this is their way

of reacting um and i think as we understand are

they are they a hurting sheep it helps us then

think okay How are we then going to deal with

this situation? Are we going to cut down on this?

Are we going to deal with patience with this

particular individual? Does it mean a one -on

-one conversation with this person? So I think

understanding the individual. yeah what they're

going through it might be something that they're

just going through at that particular point in

their life that um yeah this is a reaction to

yeah yeah a situation that is in one sense is

not a normal reaction for them so i think i think

yeah yeah are they are they wondering um or are

they hurting sorry another one is then is is

what they are communicating is this Is this sinful

in what they're communicating? Or is this heretical

in what they're communicating? And through that,

are they then going to damage the wider church

family? I think understanding that, are they

hurting or are they wandering, helps us then

think, how are we going to deal with this situation?

I've got a lovely church member who came to faith

later on in her life. And she has this wonderful

way of gossiping the gospel. And it's lovely

to see. But particularly in a state context,

gossip and talk and backstabbing is a big problem

as well. And so in this scenario, is this moaning

going on? Or is there wider gossip that we need

to sort of speak into as well? And that goes

wider than a WhatsApp communication. Yeah, if

you want to know what's going on on the estate

on a Friday, go and hang around with the people

after lunch, come having a fag outside and you

just get a different picture, as it were. But

then challenging. I think then particularly when

we've got believers that are in the community,

challenging them sometimes on actually how they're

using their words, not just on WhatsApp, but

just in general. Are they gossiping in an ungodly

way about people living in the community? I think

from, again, our experience in WhatsApp, I love

spending time with people. I love seeing people

face to face. WhatsApp, if I could do away with

it, would be my ideal. But I understand there

are blessings to it as well. So then what guidance

can we put on in our groups? And so, again, how

we've worked that out in some of our groups is

that there are limits on who can. yeah who who

can sort of put a message on the group um yeah

so on the on the members group um not just limited

to the elders but the elders would yeah would

put most of the messages on the on the members

group as opposed to our prayer channel on whatsapp

and anyone can feed into that you with me so

so helping provide some parameters to how this

communication can work well. And I think, as

I said, and you alluded to this earlier on, Jason,

is that I think people's experience of, particularly

when they vent quite publicly, sometimes their

experience, even in church context, is that they've

been told, you can't talk like that around here.

And so just not just coming down with the fun

police, as it were. Do you know what I mean?

How do we help people in the discipleship sort

of process of being a believer and working in

this area of communication rather than just closing

them down? And we've had one particular lady

that has vented in the past, but we haven't just

shunned her. And that's enabled her just to...

stick around just a little bit more and be involved

more in your church life and that's yeah i think

that i think that's that's a learning experience

for her as well not just to be ostracized for

speaking her mind megan you had an example of

someone who regularly disconnected and reconnected

yeah um thinking of somebody at my church who

will quite routinely um take offense and when

he takes offense he will storm literally storm

out He's actually a member of that particular

life group that meets twice a week. And so he

might disappear from church services for a while,

but he will stay connected with that small group.

And it just shows to me the importance of those

relationships and also for us to have grace for

each other. In those situations when that does

happen, there is a conversation between him and

the church, you know, one of the church leaders

will reach out and connect. And it's also recognizing

through those conversations what has triggered

that response. You know, it's very often something

that was said in a sermon unintentionally that

has caused offense. And so working through that

together is a real learning point for both parties.

And tell us just something of your own story

and how about your own voice you feel has changed

and been heard more over time. Yeah, so I started

working for LCM a couple of years ago. And through

that work, I was working at my church one day

a week. And through that, I was able to have

much more of a voice into church life. But what

it really showed me is actually before I'd been

behind the scenes, I was very critical and I

would notice things on the surface that I would

take offence at and I would not see reasons for

decisions. And yeah, being behind the scenes

and working more closely with the pastors. Actually

building a relationship with them away from Sunday

service really helped me to tackle my own prejudices

and my own assumptions about things. And so it's

helped us both, me to have a voice, but also

me to recognise areas where I needed to grow.

Yeah, so taking that opportunity for kind of

everyday discipleship and everyday connection

with those in our congregations can really help.

Thank you, Megan. And so we've been thinking

about the relationship communication between

congregation members and leadership. Now, just

to flip between leaders, this is a dialogue where

we're hearing leaders communicate with one another

and leaders who are from different backgrounds.

So how can we deal with those different styles

of communication better? Yeah. And I say this

with some of our fellow elders in the room. And

so I'm thankful that, yeah, over the years, as

we've got to know each other, we've got to understand

our communication styles and how we deal differently.

But also the beauty of those working together.

Are you with me? So and I think what I mean,

one of I'm a conflict avoider by nature. And

so when. when communication has been hard sometimes

within our elders meetings, for example. One

of my fellow elders now understands that if I'm,

yeah, just feeling a little bit hurt or what,

I would just stop communicating. I just, yeah,

I just want to talk. And over the years that

we've worked together, he's been able to pick

up on that. And then outside of the meeting,

just have opportunity to, yeah, to chew over

that. But that takes time. Yeah, that does take

time. I think as eldership grows, as we think

about crossing classes and crossing culture,

we want to pray that God raises up more leaders

from diverse cultural backgrounds. And that will

take time to learn different communication styles.

And I think one of the other important things

I would say is that make sure that the only time

that... that you're communicating with your fellow

elders, your fellow church leaders is not just

in meetings, do life together. So yeah, I've

enjoyed football matches with some of our elders.

We have an elders day away, once a year, but

the night before we go away, we go to a different

church to be fed by God's word. And then we just

go out and we hang out together. And I think,

yeah, just try and be... Not try and be friends.

You should be friends. But if we're going to

model in one sense, yeah, fellowship and friendship

in community, let's model that at a leadership

level as well. And that takes intentionality.

You say it should be the case. It takes intentionality,

planning, time for a lot of us. I know Adrian

Reynolds mentioned recently in a podcast, Five

Voices. It's not a resource that I've used, fivevoices

.com, but it's a way of... analyzing different

ways that people in your team speak sort of sort

of free assessment sort of thing it's not particularly

tuned to class but it is just a way of thinking

when I hear someone say these kinds of things

where do they tend to be coming from And that

can be a helpful thing for us to think about.

Again, there's some little tips in this book

as well that I'm flagging. I'm under orders,

so I'm doing that. But we are now going to go

to our final little vignette. When you let the

whole counsel of God, his whole story, not just

a verse here or there, shape your imagination,

you begin to see that Paul isn't merely addressing

behavior. He's re -narrating what it means to

be human in Christ, calling us out of the thin

stories of this age and into a spirit -breathed

life that only finds coherence under the lordship

of Jesus. For a moment, the sermon reminds Sarah

of something else entirely. Make sure you take

the full course of antibiotics, not just until

the symptoms die down. In my experience, you

should feel things resolving in a few days. When

the gospel is allowed to tell us who we are,

fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of

our creator. But Sarah's mind is elsewhere. Okay,

but what about Tuesday? There's a damp patch

on my ceiling that hasn't dried in two weeks.

And my supervisor said to me, next time I'm late,

he won't be so understanding. On my commute this

week, I was thinking about how blessed I am to

know Jesus and to walk with him day by day. I

just needed something to hold on to today, something

to get me through the week. She tries to stay

with it. When scripture retrains our imagination,

then we see more clearly the way God sees the

world. I don't think he can see me. And if he

can't, maybe God can't either. They say home

groups help, but if this is the kind of language

we use, I'll just be the one who doesn't follow.

And that's before I notice their kitchen. One

more story about house purchases. Never pay the

asking price. I thought I was coming to church,

but... Feels like I walked into a school. Okay.

Unspoken assumptions about teaching style and

content can make some people feel alienated.

In using this example, I want to be clear again,

we're not trying to make a moral judgment. There

are many different... fitting styles of teaching.

The question is always, who is our audience?

Who do we want to reach? Who's in front of us?

And we just want to remember that it's possible

to communicate deep, complex truths in ways that

aren't diluted, but are still accessible. Paul

said in my message and preaching, we're not with

wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration

of the Spirit's power. J .C. Ryle said, unless

you are simple in your sermons, you will never

be understood. And unless you are understood,

you cannot do good to those who hear you. So

this is what we're trying to dig into in this

section. So question, Megan, how have your church

been helping to maximize the understanding and

connection that goes on in sermons? Yeah, so

quite recently, my church leaders have started

to invite feedback after the sermons. So alongside

the Bibles, they'll put out a paper with some

reflection questions on them, and then they'll

collect them again at the end of the sermons.

And it gives them a chance to really evaluate

how people in the church body are really connecting

or not connecting with the sermons. And it's

enabled them to really... take on board that

feedback and be responsive to it. And yeah, I'm

just really impressed by that, by their humility

in doing that. Yeah, another LCM has said recently

in our church, we've got Jan who left school

when she was 13 and Jim, who's a director at

Golden Sacks. If both leave encouraged and convicted,

it's a world -class sermon. So there's something

to aim for. Kev, one thing that... You found

helpful is a particular tool that you've come

across tell us about that Yeah, so some of you

will have heard of an American, Brian Chappell.

He has something called the fallen condition

focus when it comes to our preaching. And what

it helps us do when we're preparing sermons is

thinking not just, okay, what does this teach

me intellectually a truth about God, but how

does this affect my heart? And because we are

all fallen and we live in a fallen world, it

helps us get under the skin. In one sense, the

world class sermon, if we ever going to preach

one of those. But it helps us think, what is

universally true about us as fallen people that

this particular passage of scripture can speak

to? So then that helps fuel our application.

It helps fuel our illustrations, as it were.

One of the things, one of the big things in those

living on council states is. You don't have to

teach them that God exists. They're quite theistic

sort of cultures. So you're not trying to, in

one sense, argue from a head nod, but actually

what difference is this part of scripture going

to make in my life when I leave church on Sunday

afternoon after we've had lunch? What difference

is this going to make for me on Monday morning

when I'm trying to wrestle with kids and get

them to school? Yeah, whatever it might be. Trying

to think, how does this speak to our hearts?

Thank you. And when we talk about fallen condition

focus, we're not discounting the fact that actually

people are also sufferers. It's not that everything

in our lives is either saintly or sinful. We

recognize that, and so does Brian Chappell. But

just to make that point, that word fallen can

take us down a route that isn't quite where he's

going. We have more to say on this, but... we

need to allow time for questions. I think we've

reached our cutoff. And so I'm going to draw

stumps there and give you a chance to respond

to some of what we've said. We're happy to talk

more, but it'd be great to give you a chance

to respond to what you've heard.