June Questions and Answers Service by Hiram Kemp and Neal Pollard

Well it's time once again for our monthly Q&A session. For the benefits of visitors

or those watching online or watching online at a later date, Cumberland Trace once a month

has the tradition of doing a Q&A session where they request for members to submit any questions

they have about scriptural related topics. We've got the benefit of the resource, the

great resource of the minds of Hiram and Neil to answer those questions. It reminds me of

Paul Harvey quote from the old radio broadcast, but now it's time for the rest of the story.

I guess I'm young, but I know stuff. I believe our first question tonight will be for Hiram, and that

question is, what does 1st Corinthians chapters 12 through 14 teach us about the spiritual

gifts in the first century and how does it apply today? Alright, if you have your Bible

you can turn to 1st Corinthians chapter 12. Chapters 12 through 14 is a threefold section

that must be studied together. It's the most extensive section on spiritual gifts in this

letter and most likely in all of the New Testament where Paul is dealing with spiritual gifts.

In chapter 1 in verse 7, Paul said the Corinthians weren't lacking in any spiritual gifts, so

whatever spiritual gifts were available in the first century church, the church at Corinth

had them in totality. In chapters 12, 13, and 14, Paul's dealing with spiritual gifts from

three different vantage points. In chapter 12, the primary focus on the spiritual gifts

is that there are various gifts offered, but each person has something to contribute and

though they have different gifts, they all work together for the unification of the body.

That's 1st Corinthians 12, 1 through 11. In 1st Corinthians 12, 12 through 24, Paul says

that none of these individuals had the right, due to their different gifts, to look down

on another. In fact, he says we should esteem those of lower value, at least as it relates

to visibility, because our more presentable parts have no need of that. So in 1st Corinthians

12, the argument about spiritual gifts, whether it's miracles, tongues, supernatural knowledge,

is that the various Christians in Corinth had gifts, but nothing about their value or

worth in the eyes of God was diminished or exalted based on their spiritual gift. In

chapter 13, Paul says, in fact, the greatest gift is love, and whatever gifts that the

Corinthians might have had, in 1st Corinthians 13, 1 through 3, Paul says if you have all

of those things, but you don't have love, the spiritual gifts are of no value. In chapters

13, verses 8 through 10, Paul says love never fails, prophecies will fail, knowledge will,

tongues will vanish away, but we know in part for a time, but when the perfect is come,

that which is in part will vanish away. And so in chapter 13, love is the supreme gift

that should be pursued above tongues and prophecy, because love will outlast all of the gifts.

And then finally, in chapter 14, Paul gets to the heart of his discussion that it seems

the Corinthians were battling over, and that is, which gift is more profitable or better

for the church, prophecy or tongues? And in 1st Corinthians 14, 1 through 5, Paul says

tongues are assigned for unbelievers, but prophecy builds up the church. And he concludes

his argument, really, in verse 39, where he says, I wish that you all spoke in tongues,

but especially that you prophesied, because prophecy, as it was used in the first century

church, was for the building up and the edifying of the body. In the use of their spiritual

gifts, he says in verse 33, God's not the author of confusion, and they need to exercise

their spiritual gifts one at a time, because God wants things done decently and in order.

That's chapter 14 in verse 40. And so the gifts, that's how Paul describes them in 1 Corinthians

12 through 14. What's the bearing on us today? I would say several things. It's clear from

the text and from the rest of the New Testament that what Paul is describing in relation to

spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 was limited to a special situation with

Christians in the first century church. The miraculous gifts discussed there do not persist

today for several reasons. Number one, in 1 Corinthians 13 and verse 10, Paul says when

that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away with. Most likely,

that's a reference to once we have the completed canon of scripture, there would be no longer

a need for those miracles to confirm the message that was given and authenticated by those

gifts. But secondly, in the New Testament, the giving of spiritual gifts, the passing

on of that miraculous power was done by the laying on of the apostles' hands. Acts chapter

Acts 6 · chapter mention

6, Neal talked about it this morning, the apostles laid hands on those seven men. And

in Acts chapter 8, verses 18 through 24, when the Samaritans hear the gospel, Peter and

Acts 8:18–24

John go down to Samaria so that they can lay hands on those individuals and they'd have

that miraculous power. They had previously laid hands on Philip, but he wasn't able to

transfer the power. Second Timothy 1 and verse 6, Paul said he laid hands on Timothy

and Timothy was able to use those gifts. And so the miraculous age ceased when the last

person died on whom the apostles had laid their hands. And so the miraculous age doesn't

continue. And you can add to that Hebrews 2, 1 through 4, which says the miraculous

gifts were given to confirm the word. But once we have it confirmed, there's no longer

a need for the gifts. It's like scaffolding on a building. Once the building goes up,

that which was for a temporary time is removed. But there's still something to be learned

for us concerning the gifts, though we don't possess miraculous gifts. That is number one,

each of us has a talent and an ability, albeit non-miraculous, that God expects us to use

for his glory and we shouldn't diminish ourselves based on what we have or exalt ourselves.

Number two, whatever we have and whatever we use, God wants us to do it decently and

in order. If anything's apparent from these three chapters, it is everybody has talent

in the kingdom of God, but worship is not a talent show. Sometimes people say, well,

I've got this talent. Surely God would want me to use it. First Corinthians 12 through

14, Paul is emphatic. Everybody has talent, but worship is not a talent show where everybody

does whatever they can do for God. He says in chapter 14, verse 16 and chapter 14 and

verse 23, if you do this, worship turns into a circus and it'll turn off unbelievers. And

last but not least, whatever gift we have is for the building up of the body and not

for the building up of ourselves. First Corinthians 14 and verse 12. Whatever God's given us to

do is to benefit and bless the church and not to make a name for ourselves, but to lift

up and exalt his name.

Neil, anything you'd like to add?

That's good.

That sums it up pretty well. Okay, Neil, I believe this is your question. What exactly

is the gift of the Holy Spirit?

This is a great tie and we didn't put these in any particular order, but it goes well

with just what was said from First Corinthians 12 through 14. If you want to look in Acts

2.38, it's a very familiar passage to us and it seems so often when we're teaching in evangelism

or appealing in an invitation, we will look at the first part of Acts 2.38 and we sometimes

either omit or we don't certainly explain the second part of that passage. This is where

the folks on Pentecost have heard Jesus preached. He is declared Lord and Christ and the people

are convicted by the message and they ask what they must do. What is said there in Acts

2.38 is repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the

forgiveness of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This gives rise

to the question, what is that gift of the Holy Spirit? As far as I can see it, there

are two major thoughts, especially among us regarding that, that either this was a promise

of a miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit or it is the gift of the Holy Spirit himself

on everyone who comes into Christ. I don't believe that the former is the right answer

and a lot of that was for the reasons that were just explained by Hiram and in tandem

with verse 39, that is that the apostles were laying hands on individuals who were already

Christians like the Samaritans in Acts 8.14 and following that allowed them to have the

miraculous gifts. They didn't have it before Peter and John came from Jerusalem and so

it wouldn't make sense, especially with what Peter says next. In verse 39 he says, and

by the way this is a promise not a command, you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For the promise is unto you, the folks who are present there on Pentecost and unto your

children, seemingly the Jews, and unto them that are far off, that would be the Gentile

world where the gospel is going to go in the first century, even as many as the Lord our

God shall call. So what we're looking for is a promise that's going to be fulfilled

to everybody who answers the call of the gospel to become a Christian. And so the gift of

the Holy Spirit is the gift of the Holy Spirit. And to help us to have confidence in this

there are a variety of passages in the New Testament if you want notation of this that

says explicitly that the Spirit of God is in you, in Christians. Romans 8 verse 9 and

Romans 8:9

verse 11, Paul in the great comfort of that chapter says that very thing. He speaks to

the church at Corinth in 1 Corinthians 3 and verse 14 and says the Holy Spirit is in you

all. And then in chapter 6 and verse 19 your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is

in you, who you have of God and you're not your own. He's going to write to other churches

in Galatians 4 and verse 6, this is a cause for your great comfort to know that we can

cry out, the Spirit of God that is in us, we can cry out Abba Father. Ephesians 1 verse

Ephesians 1:13

13 tells us part of the reason why. It's a seal of our redemption, a down payment on

what's to be given at the last day, Ephesians 1 and verse 13. You might write down 2 Timothy

2 Timothy 1 · chapter mention

chapter 1 and verse 14 where we're told that the Spirit of God dwells within us. Jesus

promised this in John 14 and verse 17 that the Spirit of God will dwell with you and

will be in you. And so that's a blessing to have a gift like that, that God's Spirit dwells

within us. Ephesians 3 verse 16 says that we are strengthened in our inner man by God's

Ephesians 3:16

Spirit who is in us. Romans 8 verse 26, though I don't know exactly how that plays out, he

Romans 8:26

makes intercession for our prayers. And so, very simply, the gift of the Holy Spirit which

comes to all of us who answer the call of the Gospel is the indwelling of God's Spirit

within us. It's our redemption.

Hiram, anything to add?

I can't believe our next question is for you. If God already knows everything, isn't our

life already predestined and predetermined? And does it matter what we do?

A lot of people sometimes have this question in mind even if they don't vocalize it concerning

God's omniscience and what God knows. The Bible does teach that God knows everything,

that God knows the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46 and verse 10. Psalm 139, David is

speaking about God's omnipresence, God's kindness and his omnibenevolence, but also his omniscience.

And David says in Psalm 139 and verse 2, you know my thoughts are far off. And then

he describes the inescapability of God. He says, if I ascend to heaven, you're there.

If I make my bed in Sheol, you're there. Darkness is his light to you, there's no way around

you. Psalm 139, 7 through 11. But what we need to see is wherever the Bible talks about

God knowing everything, God's omniscience, it's always held up as something that's a

comfort to God's people and not as something that makes life meaningless or void or empty.

God does know everything, but that's a comfort to us that God is present and that that knowledge

should cause us to trust in him and live for him. So Hebrews 4 and verse 13, the Hebrew

writer says, all things are naked and open before the eyes of him to whom we must give

an account. God knows everything. And yet that doesn't mean that our lives are predestined

or predetermined. The God of scriptures described as knowing the end from the beginning. And

yet we're given free will and God holds out in the Bible that you and I get to choose

and just think about some of the passages you already know that emphasize human choice.

Joshua 24, 15, choose you this day. Now God knows all of the choices and God even knows

what people will choose, but he doesn't intervene and prevent people from choosing or force

people to go in a certain way. He told ancient Israel, I've set before you death and life,

choose life that you might live. Deuteronomy 30 in verse 15, Deuteronomy 30 in verse 19.

So God knows everything, but he doesn't intervene in our lives in such a way that we have to

go in a certain direction and choose no matter what we decide. God's omniscience doesn't

mean that all of our life is predetermined, that our choices already played out. This

question is where to specifically, if God already knows everything, but we don't already

know everything. The Bible does speak of predestination in the sense of a collective group of people

that obey the gospel have been predetermined by God to be saved. Ephesians one, four through

five and Romans eight in verse 29, but your life and my life is not a movie that's already

been played out that God's simply watching back. Instead, we're living it out, making

daily choices and decisions, which God allows us to make, hoping and trusting that with

his providence, his Bible passages, his people, that we would choose rightly and well. And

at the same time, scripture holds out that absolutely nothing surprises him because he

knows everything. There are areas in our lives where we know a great deal about how things

are going to play out before they ever do. And none of that diminishes our love, our

depth of relationship or our desire to be involved. So if you have children of any age,

the day your children were born, you knew that moment that they weren't going to stay

that age forever. You knew that when they were 10 and 15 and into their twenties. And

though, you know, predetermined, this isn't a surprise. It doesn't develop for you over

time, though you knew that entering that relationship, you're still able to love full fledged and

you're not able to, it doesn't mean that this relationship doesn't mean anything because

one day it'll terminate or it'll change or to transform. If anything, it enhances your

desire to do so. If you're married, logically, you know that at one point or at some point

in life, you and your spouse would depart from each other in death, or if not then, then

certainly in the resurrection when Jesus returns. And yet that doesn't mean, well, because I

know this relationship in and of itself as it presently stands is never lasting.

You know that already. That foreknowledge doesn't make that relationship worthless or

meaningless. Again, if anything, it enhances it. The omniscience of God as it's held out

in scripture doesn't mean what we do doesn't matter. It means we serve a God who knows

the past, who knows the present, who knows the future and whatever's coming, whether

it be good or bad, indifferent or ugly, we serve a God who's already there and he's on

our side. And that's how Jesus ends the book of Matthew in Matthew 28 in verse 20, behold,

I'm with you always, even until the end of the age. So the omniscience of God doesn't

mean everything's already predetermined, there's nothing we can do. God's given us

choices and options, nothing surprises our God, and that's ultimately good news for us.

Neil, anything to add?

As always, he nails it down.

Tough act to follow. Neil, this question is yours. Can you explain 2 Thessalonians chapter

2 Thessalonians 2:8–12

2, verses 8 through 12?

We'll see. What we'll do though is we're going to expand that out. If you have your Bibles,

I think it's worthwhile for us to look at 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 beginning at verse

2 Thessalonians 2 · chapter mention

1. We're going to read that paragraph that talks about what we often refer to or who

we often refer to as the man of sin or the man of lawlessness. Now, the original question

was very involved and had several elements, and so I hope that by looking at this that

we'll answer the variety of questions and then come away with what it means to us today.

Just by way of an outline or the way I would outline 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 through 12, is

that these new Christians, and they're very new Christians, the church is established

in Acts 17 at Thessalonica, and after just a few weeks, Paul and the missionaries are

forced to leave, and so they're worried about how this young church is doing. So not long

after, Paul's going to write two letters back-to-back, 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians, and in

both of those letters, these new Christians are wondering about the second coming of Christ.

There was a lot of misinformation, so I would say verses 1 through 3 is they had received

some disturbing information about the day of the Lord. They needed, number 2, divine

information about the day of the Lord. That'd be verse 3 through verse 10, and they faced

some deluding influences about the day of the Lord, and that would be verse 11 and 12.

But let's look at it. Let's see, perhaps, if we can understand or formulate some theories

about who this might be, and then what the takeaway would be for us today. Paul says,

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to

Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit

or a spoken word or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the

Lord has come. They're concerned that Christ has come again, and they have missed it. Let

no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first,

and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts

himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the

temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still

with you, I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now, so that

he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he

who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will

be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of His mouth and bring to

nothing by the appearance of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity

of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for

those who are perishing because they refuse to love the truth, and so be saved. Therefore

God sends them a strong delusion so that they may believe what is false, in order that all

may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." So obviously

whatever this is, it's very disturbing to these new Christians. It's a matter of spiritual

life and death for them. And there are some elements that Paul points out that are notable

for us. First of all, Paul says, I think it's in verse 5 that we just saw, that he had told

them these things already. So he gave them some information about whoever or whatever

this was that they knew, that they could recall, but which is not revealed to us in Scripture.

So it was something they needed in light of what he was about to tell them that has not

been preserved for us. There are two ways that I think that are plausible to look at

who, if you, I'm going to put that somewhat in quotes, the man of lawlessness is, and

I think both of these are acceptable possible explanations. There is an idea here that that

which was developing, it hadn't fully happened, that if we're recalling from the book of Acts

that the Jews were opposing the Christians, and they were fighting them. The Roman Empire

is looking at the Jews and the Christians, and they're seeing a couple of groups that

are not in line with the rest of the empire religiously. And as long as those Jews are

still existent, then the Romans aren't focusing only on the Christians. We can look at history

and see that there's not a general persecution against the church yet. And that influence

that's going to be taken out of the way is going to happen in A.D. 70, not long after

this is written, when the Jews are destroyed. And then the Romans have one apostate people

in their minds, and that would be Christians. And they could focus on them, and we certainly

do see a lot of persecution focusing on the Christians after A.D. 70. And so we could

go through and look at some of what Paul is warning them about and saying, this is already

happening, this process is happening, and very soon the Jews are going to be destroyed

and scattered at A.D. 70 by the Romans, and then Christ is going to come in judgment of

those Jews at that time, that coming of Christ at A.D. 70 against them, that will then make

you will know that Christ's coming is not going to be before then. There are others

who would say that this is describing the general apostasy that happens in the church.

That there, in some of the language, like you go back and you say verse 3, that day

will not come unless the rebellion comes first, the man of lawlessness revealed, the son of

destruction who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god, an object of

worship, somebody who equates himself with God and takes his place in the temple of God,

proclaiming himself to be God. That that man of lawlessness would lead to the apostasy.

Paul's going to elsewhere talk about a coming departure from the truth that would result

in a group of people who would be, would result in a different religious group than the New

Testament church. And that being the case, then Paul is telling them that that's going

to continue to be the case in our world until Christ comes in the final judgment again.

So the apostate church and of course protestant groups that have come out of that, some would

say this is what Paul is saying, this hasn't happened yet. There's seeds, we're moving

in that direction but it hasn't occurred yet. And so don't worry, Christ's second coming

has not been missed. Those are plausible possibilities. The second one might have more bearing on

us today but I would suggest what matters the most is what Paul says in verse 11 and

verse 12 because it's not just something that's limited to being a part of apostasy or being

a Christian in a Jewish world or in the Roman Empire. It's something that we face today.

Look at what he says in verse 11. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion so that they

may believe what is false. That can still happen in a variety of ways to us today. The

true gospel is not nearly as popular as that which would be easier to follow an alternative.

And those who go into this have their eyes wide open. They don't want the truth. They

want something that's easier. He says they take pleasure in unrighteousness. Paul near

the end of his life is going to say that some are going to turn away their ears from the

truth and be turned unto fables. So as I make application of this in my life, I need to

value the truth of God's word like the Thessalonians did. 1 Thessalonians 2 and verse 13 and believe

the truth and even if something sounds better, easier, and appeals to me more, I need to

reject it if it is at odds with the truth. Now whoever that man of sin or lawlessness

may be, that's a principle that all of us need to hold on to. And that may be something

Hiram you might want to comment on and clarify. No, I think Neil did a great job. Everything

he said is, I agree with, especially the last part. And I will just say this, passages

like this, the man of lawlessness or the antichrist mentioned plural in 1 John and 2 John. There

are all kinds of people, and you can go to any bookstore and find this, that become what

I'll just call end time fanatics. And their whole thrust of their spirituality and their

theology is to identify these people and who they were and when these things happened.

But if you just read the text that Neil broke down, Paul's main point is not the identification

of this person, but instead he will be destroyed with the breath of Jesus' mouth, the ultimate

victory in Jesus, and the need for Christians to love truth and be godly. So whenever we

approach texts like this, or you can think about various individuals identified throughout

the book of Revelation, I don't think there's anything wrong with studying those things

out and trying to land on an interpretation for our own purposes. But at the end of the

day, the so what of these passages is ultimately what the biblical authors were driving at.

Because if it mattered indefinitely that we identify who this person was so that we

could properly understand this passage without fail, God would have told us. And since he

didn't, evidently the Thessalonians knew, and Neil gives some great historical information

and some plausible interpretations. But at the end of the day, we won't be swept up with

whoever the man of lawlessness is. The strong delusion will evade us if we love truth and

just really press toward the goal. So I just want to echo what Neil said, but just broaden

that out to all end-time ideas. People that start watching for those signs and obsessing

over it often find themselves falling into the very delusion that the Bible's warning

against. And so instead of trying to identify individuals, God's often saying, prioritize

your virtue, develop the fruit of the spirit, love truth, and whoever it is, whatever it

is, and whenever it is, you'll be on the side of God and truth, and it won't matter.

Hiram, I believe this next one is for you. Can Satan hear our thoughts and prayers?

I think there are several answers to this. I would have to say first, I believe that

the answer to that is yes, because at least in part, people in the world, individuals

can hear our prayers when we pray out loud. Satan can hear our prayers, sinners can hear

our prayers, and so people in the world can hear our prayers. It's interesting as you

read throughout the Psalms especially, though, how often the psalmist highlights that God's

the one listening to his prayers. So just think about passages like Psalm 6, verses

Psalms 6:8

8 and 9, or Psalm 40 and verse 1, or Psalm 66 and verse 19, or Psalm 116 and verse 1.

The psalmist is often highlighting and emphasizing the fact that no matter who else hears and

whatever else may be going on, that God's listening to his prayers, and that's the main

thing that matters. So 1 John 5 and verse 14, John says this is the confidence we have

in him. If we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that we

have the petitions that we've asked of him, whatever those are, then we know we have the

confidence to pray to him. So can Satan hear our prayers? The first part of that answer

is yes in part, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that he can thwart, intercept,

or change our prayers or their delivery to God whatsoever. Job says at the end of that

book in Job 42 and verse 2, now I know you're God and nothing can thwart your purposes. So

you don't have to whisper as if Satan's going to hear it and change it or divert anything

that you're asking God. But another aspect of can Satan hear our thoughts and prayers

would have to be in part no, because sometimes a lot of Christians pray internally or silently,

and Satan can't read or hear our thoughts. Throughout scripture, one of the attributes

that is held up as belonging to God that makes him God, and this is in part something we talked

about earlier with God's omniscience, but one of the virtues or capabilities that God has

that sets him apart from everybody else and everything else is that God knows the heart

and he knows everything we're thinking about. If Satan has that too, then that's no longer a

divine virtue. It's just open to the spiritual world at large, but the Bible holds it up as

something that's divine and not demonic. And so he tells Samuel when he goes to the household

of Jesse in 1 Samuel 16, 7, the Lord looks on the heart and only the Lord can do that. Or Jeremiah

17 in verse 10, I the Lord searched the heart and I tried the reins to see and report, repay every

man according to his work. Revelation 2 in verse 23, Jesus tells the church at Thyatira, I'm the

one that searches the hearts and the mind and Satan, he can't do that. Satan can't read our minds

and know what we're saying internally, only God can do that. And so we should trust that Satan

can't hear our thoughts and our prayers and intercept them and do anything different. What

John says in 1 John 4 in verse 4 is greater is the one who is in you than the one who's

ultimately in the world. And so we pray to God through the person of Jesus Christ with the help

of the spirit and whatever Satan hears, he can't stop that, but he doesn't hear everything. And one

more thing along these lines concerning our thoughts and our prayers is keep in mind that

Satan does not know everything. I think sometimes we sort of put God on one side, Satan on the other

with equal power, one's just good and one's just bad, but the Bible is clear, Satan doesn't know

everything. Satan didn't know that Job would stay faithful no matter what, Job 1, 6 through 12, Job

2, 1 through 4, he threw the kitchen sink at Job, he says Job's going to curse God, Satan didn't know

that but God knew. Satan didn't know that the death of Jesus was ultimately not a part of defeat

but a part of the will of God that was going to bring salvation to the masses or he would have

never had Jesus crucified. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2, 6 through 8 concerning the crucifixion

of Jesus, which none of the princes of the world knew. Had they known it, they would not have

crucified the Lord of glory. So just as detrimental as not ascribing any power to Satan whatsoever,

which is a problem, thinking that the devil can't do any harm, I think equally and maybe even more so

is giving too much power to the devil and thinking he knows our thoughts, he reads our minds, he can

hear our prayers, he knows what we want and so he tempts us in certain ways. That's just not true.

I've said this before but the devil is a lot more like Amazon than he is the Almighty.

Amazon suggests things for you to buy, you to try, you to engage in based on things you previously

purchased and they look at your history and they say, hey this probably is for you. The devil does

the same thing. He sees us stumble and fall and we give him the intel and he says based on your

temperament, based on your temptation track record, these things probably are for you. But he

doesn't know everything, he can't hear our prayers, and he can't stop what God wants to do in answering

those prayers and his involvement in our lives. Neil, next question. How do we reconcile Proverbs 6

Proverbs 6:17

verse 17 with God's command to Saul and his men to kill child and infant in 1 Samuel 15 verse 3?

1 Samuel 15:3

Does this go against Ezekiel 18 verse 20? Was he testing them like he did with Abraham and Isaac?

Ezekiel 18:20

So in answer to that, Proverbs 6 17 is a list is that passage I guess it's 6 16 through 19 is

what we often call the seven deadly sins and one of those things that God hates that are an

abomination to him is hands that shed innocent blood. If you'll look at that list, that proud

look, the lying tongue, that entire list, these are unjust, ungodly, self-serving sins that men

commit against other men. There's no bent or rationale for considering anything outside of

what somebody wants to do. So this is unrighteous, ungodly behavior of intemperate people. So we lay

that aside and look at that and then deal with, by contrast, what God is telling men to do. And I

would suggest that it's not just with the Amalekites in 1 Samuel chapter 15, but if you

1 Samuel 15 · chapter mention

want to lay one aside alongside of that, do you remember when God sends the Israelites to

destroy Jericho in Joshua chapter 6? A very similar instruction is given and in the instructions in

Joshua 6 · chapter mention

1 Samuel 15 and I believe it's verse 10 or 11 where Samuel wants to know what God's ruling is

on Saul's disobedience. Here's what God says to Saul and the people, that they were to go and they

were to destroy the Amalekites. And among that which they were to destroy was not just livestock

and not just men and women, but children and infants. And so somebody goes, now why is it that

God would say that it's wrong for man to do this and then God turn around and command a king or

anyone for that matter to go and to do that very thing. Two things with regard to the divine here.

We have a divine judgment and we have a divine punishment. Here is God acting in judgment and He

tells in both situations in 1 Samuel 15 and Joshua chapter 6 that they were to go in and they were to

Joshua 6 · chapter mention

utterly destroy. They were devoted to destruction. And this was God's judgment on the Amalekites

because of what they had done to the Israelites in Exodus chapter 17 verse 8. They have left Egypt,

Exodus 17:8

they're going toward the promised land and on the way the Amalekites assault them and they harass

them and they sin against the people of God and the violence that they do to them. God has taken

note of this. By the way, He has given them 400 years to repent. They have not done so and so God

in a patient and merciful forbearance now says, Saul, this is the work I want you to do.

I want you to go in, but I want you to destroy everything. The Hebrew word of concept is

It's the idea of devoted, it's sacred to God, it's set apart. And so you'll notice in both cases the Israelites

could not take of any of the spoil. This was a judgment that's gone, it's done, you can't do

anything with it. This is why there's sin on the part of both Saul and in the Israelite army.

Achan went in and he took of the spoil and took it for himself and what does God do? God exercises

divine judgment on Achan and his house because they disobeyed what God said. This is a judgment,

God has the right to judge in any way He chooses. He's sovereign, we're not. If He says this is how I'm

going to handle the sin of these folks and by the way there's some mercy in that. Those infants and

those children weren't given the opportunity to grow up and by the law of averages

live an immoral life and die lost eternally. But with regard to what happens in Saul's case,

Saul saves the king, Agag, and the people take the spoil and they save it, quote, to offer it

to the Lord. They had their own rationale, they're going to do it their own way and God is displeased.

He takes the kingship from Saul because it's rebellion against God's judgment and God's

justice and God's punishment. Ezekiel 1820 says that with regard to the sins that the

father does, those are not going to be imputed on the son. The son doesn't have to pay the penalty

of the crime that the father does, but God's judgment is not subject to our

discrutability or our calling into question. God is acting in judgment as He will do someday

ultimately and that's the difference between what God's doing there, He's not testing them,

He's saying you're my instruments of judgment, go and do the work that I've told you to do,

but He also adds in there this is holy and devoted to me.

I'll just say I don't know how this happened, we divided up the questions evenly,

Neil's got the hardest questions tonight, two times in a row and I think question number six

that's on the screen is probably one of the hardest questions in the Old Testament, so

Neil, I think you did a great job answering that and if you know anybody, whoever struggles with

what they call the wrath of God in the Old Testament or the anger of God, this will come up,

God's character will be put on trial by these individuals and I think what Neil just gave was

an awesome answer as best as you can say given the conditions of killing and infants and children,

but it is a challenging question. Here's what I'll say, nothing to add to what Neil's already

covered, if we take this question and we say I don't see how God could or why would God do this

or that, we do have to step back and say where did we get those attributes from, this idea of right

and wrong and justice and goodness, we should tread lightly and using God's own attributes to

then sit in judgment on who God is and tell God what's right versus what's wrong because any sense

of rightness and oughtness that we've derived, it's merely borrowed virtue from God and so we

can't exalt ourselves in our own opinions and say if I were God, if I knew what was right or wrong,

I wouldn't do x, y, and z. God is sovereign, he's all good, all holy, but he's also just and whatever

he does is right. Ezekiel 18 and verse 20, those passages do speak about condemnation and I think

Neil is right that those children that would have been killed in this punishment, they are suffering

consequences based on their forefather's sins but they wouldn't be receiving eternal condemnation

and I think there's a difference. So we can suffer consequences because of the sins of our parents

but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to be receiving their guilt or their

condemnation and this plays out and you can think about physical ways that this is true,

economical ways in which this is true even today, you can suffer consequences for things done in

previous generations but that in no way means you inherit or receive guilt and I think that's

the heart of Ezekiel 18 and verse 20, you can't impugn God and say I'm suffering in this way

ultimately and being condemned because I'm borrowing guilt from my parents. But again,

probably the hardest question tonight, one of the most difficult ones in the Old Testament,

but God's righteousness and holiness needs to be held up and that's what I think Neil did in

answering that and so great job and I don't know how he got all the hard questions but

I'm glad he took it on and did great.

Okay, the next question for Hiram, had Jesus always been God's son?

The proper name for this belief or this doctrine and maybe you haven't heard of it in these terms

but it's referred to as eternal sonship and it's the idea that Jesus has always been God's son

and the way I'm going to answer this question is no, Jesus has not always been God's son.

Jesus has always been God, Jesus has always been divine, Jesus is co-equal, creator,

eternal with God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit but the position or the title of son

is something that's attributed to Jesus once he reaches earth as a part of his physical

appearance here and his incarnation as a human being and if you read the gospel accounts,

for example, Luke chapter 1 when Gabriel is speaking to Mary, he says you'll be given

Luke 1 · chapter mention

birth to a son and he'll be called the son of God most high, Luke 1 33 through 35.

Peter says in Caesarea Philippi Matthew 16 and verse 16 that Jesus is the Christ,

the son of the living God. Throughout the New Testament, the title son of God is just that,

it's a title, it's about Jesus' messianic role as the Messiah and it's a physical description

placed on Jesus during his earthly advent into the world to describe his relationship to God

but if you just go back into eternity, there is no father, son and spirit hierarchy, that's a part

of the language God uses to communicate Jesus' role to us on earth today. Go to Genesis 1 and

verse 26, God simply says let us make man in our image. When the prophets speak about the coming

of Jesus in Isaiah 40, it says John the Baptist will prepare the way for Yahweh which is God and

when Jesus shows up, that's exactly who John was preparing the way for. So in Genesis, let's just

say chapter 0 before humanity's created or anything like that, Jesus is not viewed as the son of God,

it's a spiritual title to represent his messianic position but eternal sonship, that the fact that

Jesus has always been God, I don't believe the Bible teaches it and you might think well this

doctrine doesn't really matter whichever way you fall but there is a sense in which it does.

If eternal sonship is a thing, if Jesus has always been God's son, it at least opens the door

for a sort of hierarchy in the Godhead and is Jesus as eternal as God and what about his position

if he's begotten of God but the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says he's eternal, he created

everything and that he's equal with God and that he takes on the title of son as his title on earth.

Jesus is his earthly name meaning God is salvation, Christ or son of God or Messiah are all descriptions

of who he is and you could see the one chapters for this, Colossians 1, 15 through 17, John 1, 1

through 5 and Hebrews 1, 1 through 5 for Jesus' eternality. One last thing you might be thinking

well sometimes you read the Old Testament and it says that Jesus is the son of God or there are

these passages about the son and I would just say that those passages are looking ahead to what Jesus

is going to become as far as his earthly advent or looking back with that same idea. You might say

this today, President Abraham Lincoln was born in this place. Well when you go back to when Abraham

Lincoln was born he wasn't president at that time, you're just taking something you know about him

and attributing it back to this time period. You might say Michael Jordan, the NBA all-star was

born in this place but when he was born he wasn't that. You're just looking at what you know now

and pointing backwards in that same way and I think the Old Testament does this about Jesus

as the son all the time. He's son in the relationship to God now but that's not what

he's always been referred to as. Just really quick I think what can cause some confusion and

that's obviously very thorough and right there. Galatians 4, 4 says when the fullness of

time had come God sent forth his son made of a woman made under the law to redeem those who are under

the curse of the law and then in John 3, 17 Jesus said God sent not his son into the world to condemn

the world but the world through him might be saved. We go well see that's sonship before he came to

earth but that's the same principle that Aaron was talking about in the Old Testament. You now

have writers who are writing after the fact and are looking at what was the time before he came

to this earth in the role that he assumed by coming to this earth and so they're referring

back to him in that way. Not that he was that before he came to this earth by way of his

relationship there. So that's all I would say is when you see those passages it still harmonizes

perfectly with what was said. All right Neil question eight at what point age in a child's life

is a parent no longer held spiritually accountable for those choices their child makes that are not

in line with scripture? So I believe that they're the longer question says is this as long as they're

at home or for the rest of their lives and especially with that contrast what I would say

is that it seems that totality of scripture shows the responsibility that we have that's special

and unique when our children are at home and practicality tells us that when our children

graduate from the home they graduate from that greater sphere of influence that we have over

them as long as they're at home. There are there's order in the home that God gives that each

person in the home has to fulfill their role. Ephesians 6 1 through 3 tells children

to obey their parents. This seems to be in line with the training that God's given the parents

for the children to train up their children the way they should go Proverbs 22 6 or to make sure

that the child when they're growing up is told what who God is and what their relationship is

to be to him like is in the Shema and Deuteronomy 6 4 through 6 and so we're training, we're

influencing, we're modeling, we have that period of time that they're in our home to try to prepare

them and to help them to live independent of our home with their faith. There are some principles

that tell us that that relationship changes when they leave home. For example, when one wants to

be married Genesis 2 24 which Jesus echoes says that a man is to leave father and mother and to

be joined unto his wife and the two shall become one flesh. They'll leave and cleave and be one

flesh. That's a change of that relationship. So God foresees a time in which a child is going

to grow independent of the home and that will no longer be a sphere of influence for the parent.

Now there's a continuing influence that we can have. We can exert godliness, an example, encourage,

find loving and wise ways to help them but they're going to grow independent. They're free

moral agents and once they are adults we we lose that direct ability. Now a child is then to honor

but it's no longer to obey their parents Ephesians chapter 6 and verse 3. Does that mean that a child

Ephesians 6 · chapter mention

can't hurt their parent once they're grown? We know the answer to that. And does it mean

that a parent won't feel guilt over the imperfect way that we all inevitably parent? We certainly

are going to to wrestle with that and when our adult children are maybe saying or thinking or

feeling or living in ways that are inconsistent with scripture we can't endorse and validate

that behavior or that idea any more than we could with anyone else. First Timothy 3 4 was part of

the question that's not up on the board here that was asked. What about for an elder? How long is an

elder responsible for a child? And I think it really helps with the other information that we've been

saying. Paul leaves a man accountable for the children in his home. He is to manage his household

well. His children are to be in submission to him but those elders children grow up and their free

moral agents are going to make their own decisions. A child can be raised right and then go wrong.

That's not the elder's responsibility once that child has reached an age of maturity

and is making their own decisions. So all of that would point me to the thought that a parent

is responsible for the spiritually accountable for the choices of their child while they're in

the home and then after that that child is certainly completely and there's a graduation

of that where a child is growing greater in responsibility maturity. That's why some of our

children are baptized while they're still at home. There's a growing awareness they're

building their own relationship but there's a change in that when they leave the home.

Oh I guess all right well I would just say Neil didn't mention guilt and I would say

Isaiah chapter 1 God says I've nourished and brought up children and they rebelled against

Isaiah 1 · chapter mention

me and in Isaiah 5 God speaks of Israel like a garden and he invites everybody to come and

check out this garden and he says I did everything for this garden that I could do and I thought it

would bring forth beautiful grapes but it's brought forth wild and stinky grapes in its place

and I think the point of that passage when you think about parenting at least I would say to

those of us in my position kids still downloading still at home give it everything we've got.

For those in the category where you would say well you no longer have the direct influence

and you may wonder about the spiritual accountability God's the best parent I know

and all of God's parents aren't always walking upright and God says can anybody just point it

out to me where did I go wrong he did everything for Israel and yet Israel went its own way and

sometimes sadly that happens and that doesn't necessarily bring comfort but I think it does

help us to harmonize this idea that if God's children can go astray with the perfect parent

then it doesn't always mean that a parent had to have failed or done something wrong or

missed the mark somewhere if free will people choose to go in opposite direction.

This is our final question for the night Hiram. Who is the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament

and is he the same as every other angel we read about in scripture?

The angel of the Lord is sometimes referred to in the Old Testament and sometimes it just means

an angel that belongs to God but occasionally that title the angel of the Lord deals with a

unique angel I'll say found in the Old Testament and this angel of the Lord figure in the Old

Testament sometimes receives worship sometimes uses his name interchangeably with God and it

leads me to see it as an individual that's separate from the other angels most likely a

pre-incarnate Jesus Christ before he actually came in the flesh and I'll just give you quickly a few

passages but when Abraham is about to offer up Isaac in Genesis 22 15 through 16 the angel

identifies himself as Yahweh and he interrupts what Abraham is about to do. In Exodus chapter

three Moses is at the burning bush talking to the Lord and then it says the angel of the

Lord appears and Moses is told to take off his shoes because he's standing on holy ground so

the context of wherever you find angel of the Lord in the Old Testament you just have to read

through and see is this an irregular angel who just happens to belong to the Lord or is this a

capital A angel of the Lord with some divine attributes and throughout the Old Testament I

think it's apparent that there is an individual that embodies this presence of the angel of the

Lord that's in a different category than the other angels and I'm not going to go through all

the verses but Exodus 3 would be one place Judges 13 21 and 22 where Samson's parents worship this

angel of the Lord and he receives it you can think about passages like Hosea 12 4 through 5 where

Jacob is said to have wrestled with the angel of the Lord and in the next verse Hosea says he was

wrestling with God in Genesis 31 11 and 13 the angel of the Lord says to Jacob I'm God who spoke

to you at Bethel and then in the very next hand he's the angel of the Lord so sometimes the angel

of the Lord I believe is a representation of Jesus in the spirit before he comes fully in the flesh

and he's a unique angel above the others that ultimately receives worship refers to himself

as Yahweh God and is different from the other angels that's the way I would answer that Neil

do you have anything to add along those lines well this is a great place for us to stop it's our last

question of the night but this idea of Jesus or the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament

I think a way to summarize this is to go to Hebrews 1 and just notice

in Hebrews 1 God spoke in various times and in various ways by the prophets through angels

through messengers but in the final analysis he speaks to us through his son not an angelic

appearance not in the spiritual appearance but in his embodied human form as the word becomes

flesh and dwells among us John 1 and verse 14 and what he says to us in and through his son must be

obeyed for us to enjoy and have salvation Jesus says he's the way the truth and the life and no

man comes to the father but through him and Jesus dies in our place as we talked about this morning

and when we turn from sin based on that belief and Jesus has the messiah confess him as the son of

God and allow our bodies to be immersed in water we receive what Neil mentioned earlier and that is

the gift of the Holy Spirit along with the forgiveness of sins God adds us to the church

and he'll bless our lives for the remainder of it and we'll have questions until we meet him

but the blessing is he'll be with us he'll be present and one day we will see him not in an

angelic form and a theophany but ultimately face to face revelation 22 and verse 4 and so tonight

if anybody needs to do that obey the gospel and view of who Jesus is with the hope of seeing him

face to face in peace we'd be happy to assist you in doing that if you've already done that

and we can pray with you or pray for you