On the Road Again | If I'm already spiritual, then why do I have to show up on Sundays?

Welcome back to On the Road Again. I'm Jack Alvey

here with Emily Collette who is fresh off her

Scandinavian cruise. Welcome back. Thank you.

We've missed you. I hope the transition hasn't

been too Bumpy, but I'm excited to dive right

into episode four. Can you be spiritual but not

religious or even flip the question? Can you

be religious but not spiritual? a lot to weigh

here, but first I want to go Start with the original

question and ask Emily. What do you think people

mean when they say I'm spiritual but not religious?

In my personal experience the best way I can

describe people who who I have encountered who

are spiritual but not religious, most of them

seem to have given up on the idea of organized,

institutionalized religion, but they have not

given up on the idea of God as like a concept,

as a being. So they are tired of religion itself,

this like institutional religion, but they are

not, they're not done with God. That's my working

definition. Do you think that like they're tired

of it because they've been burned by the church,

they've been exhausted by the church, all the

above? Yeah, all the above for whatever reason.

I'm sure there's all I mean, hypocrisy is a big

one. I hear people complaining about. Yeah, I

mean. You know, there's just we can acknowledge

the fact that the church has done. That has not

always done good things, right? Like the church,

I mean, think about all the current. groups of

religious people who are having to pay out money

because of sexual assault and abuse of People

you know that they've been put in charge of caring

for and then not only that but then covered it

up right for years and years and years in order

to protect themselves as an institution so there's

There's a lot of hurt in the system. I think

from some of those people There's also like what

they're seeing and experiencing in the world

was not always lining up with What they learned

in whatever denomination or religion they're

leaving Yeah, and also like something that I'm

reminded of and we might have talked about it

on this podcast. I can't remember so excuse me,

but Dietrich Bonhoeffer is talking about an experience

that seminarians had did I talk about this already

sort of they went to a seminary in Germany, you

know during the late 1930s they were sort of

anti -Nazi movement and they had very high ideas

of what the church should look like and what

the community of faithfuls should look like and

when they got there they realized that the seminarians

they were with were just a bunch of sinners.

And Dietrich Bonhoeffer kind of had to say, you

know, if you love your dream of community more

than the community itself, you're going to destroy

the community. And so I hear the hypocrisy thing,

and I definitely think the church should be held

to a higher standard. I definitely think the

church is being called to repent on many accounts.

But at the same time, I also wonder if it's somewhat

of a messaging problem. Like, you know, the church

sort of presents itself as being, oh, we're all

high and holy. But we're not a museum of saints.

We're a hospital for sinners. I'm obviously stealing

that from someone else. But I think some of it

is just sort of a PR problem. Like, who are the

people that make up the church? We are not any...

better than anyone else. We are human beings

who are seeking salvation from a world that is

broken by sin and death. And so, you know, I

think some of it is a messaging problem. I've

heard people say, and I've even said it, like,

the church is not full of hypocrites. There's

plenty of room for more. You know, take that,

take that as you will. But part of me wonders

if it's somewhat of a messaging problem. We're

sort of You know who are what is the purpose

of the church? You know, I guess Paul would say

to reconcile all people to To God yeah, what

are you gonna get when you come to church, right?

Like what do you what's the point of coming to

church on Sunday morning? Like what's the point

or during the week? I mean, what's the point

of being a member of a Like worshipping community

and I think that maybe that's our PR shortcoming

to like what are you gonna get when you come

here? Yeah, and it's you know, I think you're

not getting a ticket to heaven like that's not

what we're promising you Right, like that's not

like come here and be a member of us and like

that's it You get into heaven and then you're

done and nothing else you do after that matters,

right? I think there's a like what's the purpose

of like being in a church community? I think

over time like, you know, maybe you come into

it It's like what am I gonna get out of this

and then over time, you know Hopefully the grace

of God works on you and you're like, oh, okay.

I see what it is It's not about what am I gonna

get out of this is what? What am I going to do

because I've encountered the grace of God? Consumerism.

You can put that down. Yeah, no, absolutely.

And the church at its best is a direct, is a

rebuttal, I don't know if that's the right word,

but is a contrast to a consumeristic culture.

We want her to be. We want what? We want the

church to be. What? A direct contrast. Oh, yeah.

I mean, that's the ideal. But again, the church,

like any human institution, falls short. Why?

Because it is made up of human beings. Humans!

Anyway, so that's sort of the age -old question.

Why does God use imperfect people to accomplish

His purposes on earth? Well, because imperfect

people are all there are. So I think a sort of

recovery of what is the church for is a part

of how to begin to address this problem. I also

think... the church needs to take ownership and

responsibility for the ways in which it has abused

the vulnerable, the very people that the church

is supposed to protect, the very people the church

is supposed to look out for. Instead, the church

will sometimes seek its own interests and seek

relationships with those in power so that the

church can stay in power. So these are all a

part of that larger conversation. Do you want

to define some of these? I think it's important

for us as we're continuing to talk about this.

I think it's helpful for us to talk about what

you mean with spiritual, but religious or spiritual.

Yeah, well, I think that's a good thing. I think

spiritual and religious, I think, well, first

of all, it's a false binary or false dichotomy.

I don't think it's not like you have spiritual

over here and religious over here. I think I

read somewhere, they're really, they're two different

accesses. Like, you might be better off putting

them in a sort of quadrant, you know, you have

as opposed to spiritual but not religious. But

what would you, like, when we say spiritual,

what do you think people are actually saying,

Emily? A lot of times when I think of spiritual

and people talk about that, it's almost like

this personal, like, individualized, I think

it's very, like, it's not, like, completely solo

sometimes, but a lot of times it is. Like, I

think sometimes, like, when I, and this is maybe

a stereotypical, but a lot of times people will

be like, well, I don't go to church because I

can just go for a walk in the woods and I see

God so much clearer. Of course you're going to

see God in the woods, right? Like, you see...

the artist and the art, right? Of course you're

going to see God in the woods because God created

all of this, right? So of course you should see

God in creation and things like that. Of course

that's true, but you know, and that's not a bad

thing. Please go on a walk and see God in the

woods. That's fantastic. I just don't think that

replaces Sunday morning being in a community.

Yeah. And I think, you know, yes, the first thing

God does is create. nature, right? And then,

finally, human beings. And then, God looks upon

the humankind that he has made and says, it is

not good for them to be alone. So, God creates

community. Well, and, I mean, he could also argue

that the very character of God is community.

And we define that on Trinity Sunday. And, you

know, it's apparent in the opening verses of

of Genesis. God refers to God's self as us, or

we, and so there's already this communal element.

This sort of reminds me of an article I read

not too long ago talking about a similar sort

of thread of spiritual but not religious, and

the author talks about the Beatitudes in particular

and says, you know, something to the effect of

is, you know, how can you know what it is like

to to give and receive mercy, if you're not in

community with people with those whom you hurt

and who hurt you. And so our fundamental growth

as human beings, as Christians, as witnesses

to grace, is the experience of receiving and

giving mercy, being forgiven as we forgive others.

And that's a part of our growth as people of

God. as painful as it is, it is a necessary part

of the salvation story. You know, just like the

cross, like you can't have the salvation of God

and Christ without the cross. And so I think

that's another, you know, so going back to this

idea of spiritual, but not religious. So yes,

there this, you know, I think one way to think

about it is I think sometimes people are saying,

well, spirit, I'm spiritual. A .K .A. I have

a relationship with God on my own. And religious

is like, well, those are those hypocrites that

gather every Sunday, act one way on Sunday and

then a different way the rest of the week. I

think that might be a crude way of distilling

it, but I think that's sort of what we're...

Like a protest almost. Yeah, it's almost a protest.

But even still, if you say you're spiritual,

you're still relying on some kind of community.

You're reading some kind of book. you're going

on some kind of hike and a preserve that is maintained

by some group of people. So you can't, you know,

it's not completely solo. I think it's just a

rejection of the church as an institution sometimes,

or I don't even know if it's a full -on rejection.

I do know some people who have been hurt by the

church and who it is very much a protest. I believe

in God, but I do not like religion. But then

there are other people who just don't see the

need in it, who just don't understand or don't

care to be a part of that community anymore.

We can get a bad rap. I mean, I know I have said

in times in the past like I'm a Christian, but

I'm not that kind of Christian, right? You know,

like there are times when like you've had to

distinguish yourself from like pop culture Christianity

sometimes sure and Yeah, so obviously, you know

that for me that there's like another side of

the question Almost almost what you're saying

is like can you be religious but not spiritual

and you know, I think that's another sort of

I think that's probably more likely than the

spiritual but not religious. I think you can

program God out of the picture. And I think that

is what the Pharisees probably get in the most

trouble for, is they've sort of programmed God

out of the picture in the sense that the law

is no longer an instrument that points to God's

love. and God's desire for God's people, it becomes

an instrument by which they measure themselves

against others. It becomes its own idol. And

I think that's what Jesus gets most frustrated

with them about. And the very thing that is supposed

to create a community that is loving, that is

merciful, becomes a thing that... that is used

to exclude, that is used to judge. And I think

that's ultimately. I need to get power. I think

that's a huge aspect of this too, right? Like

Christianity, and not just Christianity, like

all religion can do the same thing, right? Like

it's an easy path, or it can be an easy path

to getting power. And it becomes almost like

unassailable power, because who are you to question

God, right? If I say that I'm operating on behalf

of God, who are you to question that? So it becomes

almost this unassailable power structure. You

know, we can critique and should critique politicians,

but how can you critique your church, right?

Because this is like this unassailable, you know,

God is, you know, who are you to question that?

Especially if you don't have any religious authority

and you're just a member of a congregation. Like,

who am I, you know, to question that? And so

I do think there's an element of power that's

running through this conversation as well. Like,

I don't want to be in the church anymore because

it's wielding power and like a potentially gross

and Yeah, and I think you know, you know reminds

me of a lot of people say well most major wars

are About you know some fight over religion.

I was like well religion is the tool that they

use Yeah to fight the wars not necessarily religion

in and of itself Right religious is religion

we can become a power tool that people used to

lord it over others And I think you know people

do that with any human sort of Institution and

so I don't think that's unique to Christianity.

You see Jesus reject Explicitly over and over

again in his ministry, right? And I think it

is one of the things he runs up against with

the Pharisees quite a few times Is that like

he does not? Want power he is not trying to take

power from them but a lot of their fear is of

course like here comes Jesus getting this following

and followings with people can equal power and

so sometimes I you can read in the Pharisees

this fear that Jesus is starting to encroach

upon their authority. Yeah and I think you know

you know what is power sort of you know according

to the kingdoms of this world power is acquired

according to the kingdom of heaven power is looks

like love given away. Yeah which is what Jesus

does it's a self -empty thing right like he is

not looking for even to I think some you know

the frustration of some of his own followers

right like they want him to come in and like

overthrow Oppression and overthrow Rome and Jesus

is like I'm not literally not here to do any

of that. That's just another power grab, right?

Yeah, he's I'm not here for that. I'm here to

do something totally beyond that right like I'm

Rome is on top of a foundation that Jesus is

addressing right like it's Jesus is knocking

out the foundation underneath all of human existence

so there's a It's a total different, it's a total

mind shift. Yeah, I mean, because if you look

at the sort of the civilization, it's, you know,

just nations rising and falling, right? And so

Jesus is not here to enable the same pattern

happening again and again and again. You know,

Israel at one point does come into power as a

nation over their region, but what did they do

with that power? They squander it, just like

any other nation squanders their power when they

become... Too powerful. Even though God has said,

y 'all don't want a king. You do not want a king.

Yeah, trust me. You don't want a king. You do

not want a king. They're like, yes, we do. We

want to be like everyone else. Everyone has a

king. We want one. Yeah, because that's always

a good idea. God's like, you don't need a king.

You've got me. Why would you want a king? And

he gives the people what they want. But God remains

faithful even when we do not. That's the covenant.

I will make of you a great nation. It's not going

to look like brick and mortar. It's going to

look like a people who were faithful. Which brings

us back. A people, right? A community. Exactly.

That's the community that's so important there.

Exactly. I think that that's one of the things

that I would say is the biggest downside to spiritual

but not religious. community with each other.

We have got to be in community with each other.

A, we were created for that. So like we were

never meant to do any of this alone. We were

never meant to be out here just like floundering

through life alone at all. But the trade -off

for that is tension sometimes, right? Like the

trade -off for community and relationship is

tension within that system. It just happens.

I mean, we have tension within ourselves, so

how can we not expect to have tension with each

other? But that's the place from which we grow,

I think, too, right? I think about, like, I just

got back from a special session this summer,

and, you know, it's a tough place for a lot of

our teenagers because they're caregiving for

the first time ever, and most of you listening

to this will know that caregiving is a really...

difficult task and so it's the first time that

these kids have ever been put in the role of

like true caregiver 24 7 for people with disabilities

and it's a lot of growing it's a lot of learning

it's a lot of tension it's a lot of heartache

but you can see these kids that come back if

they live into that tension in that community

that new role that they have in community they

grow so much and i think that that's part of

the gift of community have i just gone off on

a tangent here no you're you're doing great i

think I mean, that's ultimately what God is doing.

Under the cross, God is gathering a community.

And this is a part of what Jeff was talking about

last week, is under the cross, God is gathering

a people who are not defined by what the world

says they are, Jew or Greek, slave or free, male

or female, able -bodied versus those with disabilities.

You know, not that those things are erased, at

least not in this lifetime, it's that we're not,

that's not our ultimate identity. Our ultimate

identity is that we are sinners of God's own

redeeming. We're, you know, lamb of his own flock.

And so that is our ultimate identity. That is

what makes us one. And so I think about, it reminds

me of something that Episcopal priest and writer,

you know, Robert Capon talks about. And I think

it's in his book for you know noon to three talking

about the crucifixion and the purpose of it And

this is a very crude Telling of what he said,

but he said something to the effect of Jesus

did not come to start a new religion Christianity

is not a new religion Christianity is actually

the end of of religion and The cross is a signal

that God has gone out of the religion business

all together that no amount of human striving

can turn this ship of fools around. The only

hope that we have is a God who will intervene

on our behalf and that God is revealed in Jesus

Christ, the one who died for the sins of the

world. And so obviously we sort of come full

circle here and it's almost like, well, yeah,

you just said God put an end to religion. I did,

you're right, you got me there. But I think what

capon is saying specifically is that religion

can't can't get us to God What is religion for?

Religion is the finger pointing to God gone out

of the religion business in the sense that Religion

is not going to save us religion is not going

to Find our you know, but all the way to God.

Our only hope is God Coming to us descending

to us. So why living among us? I'm sorry. I cut

you off. No, you're fine. Go ahead. Why should

you if you were going to tell someone who's spiritual,

but not religious, why should they come to church?

Why should they be a member of a church? Like

if you're trying to get somebody out of that,

why come to church? What are you going to get

here? Yeah, I think you are going to sort of

going back to what Jeff was talking about last

week, the church. through the cross, removes

you from the center of your own story, where

you can get out of your own way and where your

life is no longer revolves around you, but revolves

around something much bigger than you. And that

being that God creates a community that is defined

by acts of compassion, by acts of mercy. by acts

of justice, a community that is defined by people

who pay attention to those no one else is paying

attention to. And I think ultimately that is

when the church is at her best. Not when the

church is trying to look better than everyone

else, but by being morally superior to everyone

else, the church is at her best when she is serving

the least, the last. and the lost, and that is

a direct result of the cross, where God is gathering,

where Christ is gathering all different kinds

of people and defining them not by, you know,

who the world says they are, but by who they

are in Christ, beloved children of God. And so

I think that's ultimately what I would say the

why. Ask me any given moment and I'll give you

a different version of that answer, but how would

you say it? I really liked what you said about

de -centering the self. I think that's so important,

because when we do these things on our own, I

can understand the tendency to move away from

religion. I can understand their... Like like

pop culture religion right now the news there

really isn't a lot of good stories about what

the church is up to right now Out in the world

so I can understand this like movement away from

that I get it but I would say that like this

is it when we get on our own we tend to do two

things right we tend to either just self -affirm

like we're doing great we're doing good on our

own or we tend to be hyper critical of the self

and both of those need other people to come in

and hold up a mirror to us. Like this, we've

got to have other people who help us. Like if

I'm getting so hyper critical of myself, like

other people, I need them to affirm me and vice

versa. If I'm getting so self -assured and so

self -important, like I need other people to

be like, hey, look, let's put you back into the

scope of humanity, right? Let's put you back

in the scope of other people. And so I think

we have to have other, we have to have people

hold up a mirror. to us. And I would also say

this, if you are critical of religion, religion

needs you. If you are the kind of person who

has seen the ugly side of religion, I do think

that religion needs you. I think about the prophets,

and it's really no fun being a prophet. Sorry

about that. But I think about the prophets being

called to point out what's wrong, but they have

to do that in community. Throwing rocks from

outside is not very helpful. But, you know, building

up something from the inside is hard and it takes

work, but it also is like where change happens.

Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, God is transforming

the system from within, not from without. That's

why God literally enters into human life. God

is not, you know... Most of the prophets come

from inside Israel. You know what I mean? It's

like they're coming from inside that. Absolutely.

Because they love it. You know, they love and

they don't want it to get off. Absolutely. Another

Bonhoefferism, but there's nothing more cruel

than the leniency that abandons someone to their

sin. There's nothing more loving than the severe

rebuke that calls someone back from their sin.

A different way of saying what you just said

is we need people to affirm us when we're self

-loathing and we need people to... call us back

when we're a little bit arrogant. So I love that

image. Also reminded of a Kellerism, Tim Keller,

he said, you know, people are messy, relationships

are messy, expect messiness. And I think that's

what you're going to find in the church. I'm

not going to sugarcoat it for you. You're going

to meet annoying people. You're going to meet

people who aren't like you. They're going to

you're going to meet people who drive you crazy.

But that's actually what part of the design and

through that messiness God enters. And that is,

you know, the good news of the gospel is God

enters that messiness and he might not, you know,

smooth it out in the way that we would like,

but God redeems it from within, helping us see

in the other our common humanity. That we're

all a little bit messy, but we're all worth loving

because God died for or Christ died for us all

Yeah, it's good Okay, so Next time I will not

be here Emily will be here with Ashley Monticelli

our directory of you're promising a lot right

now ministries they're gonna talk about the Eucharist

and what all that means, like why do we do it?

Is Jesus really present? And if so, how present?

So anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing about

that. Well, on my vacation, hopefully it happens.

Hopefully it happens. It's a technology. It'll

be a technology thing. It'll be a technology

thing. Anyway, well thank you for joining us,

and I pray for Emily and Ashley, and really Olivia.

Bye!