Podcast: Behind the Scenes: I Love You, But… How Do I Forgive You? | Faith, Forgiveness & Letting Go

Yeah.

Good day.

And welcome to North Raleigh United Methodist Church behind the scenes podcast, where we sit down weekly and discuss this week's scripture and sermon lesson.

My name is Kevin Van Hall.

I serve as your host and moderator.

Joining me today is one of the senior pastors here at North Raleigh.

Laura Johnson.

Hi, Laura.

Hey, Kevin.

Great to see you.

Great to see you.

We are doing a Zoom today, so you might even be able to see a little bit of video here if you check us out on some uh maybe some YouTube snippets.

I don't know, but the audio will be uplift uh uploaded onto the website as usual.

And I want to uh thank you for fitting us in.

You had a very, very busy schedule today, so we're trying to uh squeeze this in in between events so everyone out there can enjoy the podcast.

We're getting good feedback from everyone, so uh we'll continue.

So can continuing, I love you but is the series that we are in that you and Kevin have been preaching in, preaching on.

Kevin and I were talking last week is I love you, but how can you believe that?

Okay, and today it's gonna be I think it's even gonna be a little bit harder than uh last week.

I love you, but how do I forgive you?

So I don't know if you got stuck with the hard ones or you picked them, but you know, I feel like Kevin and I didn't quite chart him out on who was preaching them, and maybe he was, and that's why he got the ones he did.

I don't know.

Well, I have uh no doubts that you'll do an excellent job this coming Sunday, but I get to pick your brain a little bit before then, hence my uh my role here.

I'm gonna play the antagonist a little bit.

This is an easy one for me to pick on people and say, that person's not worthy of forgiveness, is he?

And I'd love to hear your response to some of those uh questions I have.

And that's how we're going to uh go on today's just uh we talked about politics before, people's beliefs and everything else, but if you feel like somebody's wronged you and maybe they don't feel like they have, where do you go from there?

So that's gonna be the tough question that we're gonna talk about today.

We're gonna be in Matthew and in Luke today, both versions of forgiveness, a little bit different scene in each one, and we'll talk about each one separately.

But before we go on too much further, how about a word of prayer?

That's right.

Lord, we ask that you would bless our conversation, bless our hearts as we hold grudges and resentments and unforgiveness.

Open up our hearts to hear your words today.

Guide us as we consider your scriptures and your call to forgive as we have been forgiven.

Amen.

Amen.

So Laura is going to read, uh, we're gonna be in Matthew chapter 18, but let's set the stage just a little bit.

Matthew 18 · chapter mention

Laura, what's going on right here in this porn in uh Matthew's gospel?

So, Matthew, in Matthew's gospel, Jesus does a whole lot of teaching, back-to-back-to-back teaching, and we're kind of in the in the middle of a lot of like a very long, extended collection of sermons.

And so um we're we're we've just heard him kind of talking about finding the lost sheep.

We've heard him talking about what happens when there's conflict within the church, how you manage that.

Um, and now we're we're moving on into him talking with his disciples about forgiveness.

Okay.

So this is one of the parables, right?

The parable of the unmerciful servant.

And we're gonna read the entire parable and then talk about it, how this is relates to forgiveness, because I look at it as more of a mercy thing, but it can be looking as uh forgiveness as well.

So, um, so we have a lot to talk about, so we'll go right to it.

How about that?

All right, go ahead.

So this is Matthew chapter 18, verses 21 to 35.

Matthew 18:21–35

Then Peter came and said to Jesus, Lord, if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive?

As many as seven times?

Jesus said to him, Not seven times, but I tell you, seventy-seven times.

For this reason, the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

When he began the reckoning, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him, and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, together with his wife and children, and all his possessions, and payment to be made.

So the slave fell on his knees before him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.

And out of pity for him, the lord of that slave released him and forgave him the debt.

But that same slave, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denari, and seizing him by the throat he said, Pay what you owe.

Then his fellow slave fell down and pleaded with him, have patience with me, and I will pay you.

But he refused.

Then he went and threw him into prison until he would pay the debt.

When his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported there to their lord all that had taken place.

Then his Lord summoned him and said to him, You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

Should you not have had mercy on your fellow slave as I had mercy on you?

And in anger his Lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt.

So my heavenly father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from the heart.

Very strong parable.

It is.

I see a little bit of um my version, the international version, it calls them servants, where yours calls them slaves.

Yeah, it's a little bit easier for a servant, yeah, to pay back a debt versus a slave paying back a debt.

Um, I guess I like the word servant for some reason.

It just applies to all of us.

Yeah.

Well, and slavery in those days is not the slavery that we have known in modern days or in the last couple hundred years.

It was a very different thing.

So servant's probably a more a more better understandable term for us.

Right.

Well, the thing that uh comes to mind right away is obviously the mercy, but he falls down on his knees and begs for patience.

I'll pay it back.

And the master takes passion, takes pity on him, releases him.

Obviously, this the parable is that same person does not show the same mercy he received.

Just like Jesus says, You want to receive mercy, you have to give mercy.

Uh and then the master a little bit of karma comes back on him, call it karma or whatever, and the master hears what happens, like you're actually gonna get away with something, and God's not gonna know about it.

Really?

Truly?

Yeah.

And um but he repents or reverses his role, and he's going to be punished because he won't show and he says, I showed you more because you begged, because you pleaded with me.

So if the person doesn't plead, it doesn't ask for forgiveness, do they not receive it?

Yeah, so every parable has a point where it breaks down.

Like it's meant to help convey a message, but it's not like it answers every question about a topic, right?

So when it comes to forgiveness, what I see Jesus doing in this parable is he's trying to explain to Peter why it's important to forgive not just seven times, but 77 times.

And and that phrase 77 times is not meant to be taken literally, as in like once someone has messed up for the 78th time, you can give them the boot.

It's it's it's more of a a play on words that Jesus is basically saying there is no limit to how many times you forgive someone.

And so he's telling this this parable to help to help give a picture of why and how one forgives.

So the reason the the wicked servant should have been forgiving towards others was because he had been forgiven greatly.

Um and the the point of this, of this parable is to make it clear that if you don't forgive others from the heart, then you're basically um squashing the forgiveness that God has given you.

You're turning, you're turning your nose up at it and and not allowing it to change you from the inside out so that you can forgive others with the same kind of grace that you've forgiven.

And so I don't think the point of this story is to talk about someone has to ask for forgiveness to get it, because that's not what Peter asked.

Peter said, How often should I forgive if someone messes up?

Jesus tells the story to iterate that he means you have to forgive from the heart.

That last line, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart, um, so the heavenly father will do to you.

That it's not just a matter of um, you know, telling someone I forgive you or even thinking it.

It's a it has to come from the heart, um, which only comes when we have first received the grace that God has given to us.

Um, I think there are times in our lives when people will wrong us and either they will not know it, they will disagree that they've wronged us, or they die before they can come to terms with it.

And we have to, and I would venture that every single person listening to this has had that experience in one way, shape, or another, that has been harmed by someone who will never forgive or will never ask for forgiveness.

Um, and and I think Jesus is not saying you only forgive those who ask for forgiveness.

He's saying you forgive because you've been forgiven, period.

Right.

Well, and the example you give a little bit is also uh a personal experience of wrong or forgiveness versus just a simple act.

Someone asks for forgiveness or not, well, that person's past and it stays with you.

That's right.

So it's kind of where this parable it's more of an instantaneous uh action uh reaction.

Well, we hear it in the the Lord's Prayer.

Um please forgive us as as as we forgive the others.

That's right.

So it's obvious that God wants us to forgive.

He's gonna forgive us at the same measure, right, that we forgive others.

I think it's also important to name here, as Peter asks this question, how many times should I forgive?

And Jesus says as many times as as it takes.

Jesus is not saying because you forgive somebody, you you need to continue to be best friends with them.

Like there is a difference between forgiving somebody from the heart and being in full communion with somebody who has harmed you.

And I think this passage, that those two verses, 21 to 22, can be misused if someone has been in a very dangerous or toxic or abusive relationship, it has been used to say, well, you gotta forgive them and you gotta stay in the relationship.

And that's not what Jesus is saying.

This is a matter of being able to forgive from your heart as you have been forgiven, not necessarily for reconciliation, but because forgiveness is the way of the kingdom.

So we're supposed to forgive everyone no matter what.

Even even an evil person that does evil things that will not admit that they were wrong.

And we're supposed to forgive them?

Yes.

Yes.

It doesn't mean that we ever come to terms with agreeing with what they did.

It doesn't mean that we say what they did is okay.

It doesn't mean that um we don't have to muck through the consequences of their actions, but forgiveness is key to our own spiritual well-being.

Well, what about justice?

We we understand we had been taught that God, our God, is a just God.

Should there not be justice against individuals?

We put people in jail.

Are we supposed to just forgive them of their crimes and let them out?

Or do we judge them whether But forgiveness doesn't mean you let them out.

Forgiveness is the way that you approach them, the way that you think about them.

Um, so I I I think justice does not mean wrath and hatred.

Justice means appropriate consequences for appropriate for the actions that were committed with an aim towards um some kind of restoration.

So that whether that be forgiveness or them being able to restore whatever wrong they have committed, maybe they never get there.

But either way, if you can't forgive within your heart, it will fester like an infected wound.

Right.

Well, should it be automatic?

Do you automatically give forgive someone even if they won't believe it or admit that they've did fault?

Because in the previous part in Matthew uh 18, uh 15 uh through 19, it says if your brother sins against you, go to him, tell him.

We're supposed to Paul rebukes people, Corinthians and other letters for people that are sinning.

If they don't agree it, bring another.

It's like Alcoholics Anonymous or someone that's a drug abuser, needs rehab, won't admit it.

You have a little confrontation and a little sit-down with them.

So it's I the way I'm reading this is we're not supposed to just forgive everyone and let it go by.

We're supposed to call people out for the wrongs that they're doing.

Are we not?

Yeah.

And again, I think there's a difference between forgiveness and um and that sort of confrontation.

So I actually think forgiveness makes for more fruitful confrontations because oftentimes we go into those situations with hearts of wrath and anger and hatred.

And that fuels further confrontation, further division.

Whereas if we go with a heart that is full of grace, maybe you're not ready to forgive, but you're ready to at least extend grace, it it smooths for better conversation for potential them to receive the confrontation better.

Not always.

Um, but it's a matter of how you approach a person.

Do you approach a person with wrath or do you approach a person with grace?

And and and there's there's there's always a place for anger.

Like anger is a anger is one of our emotions and we have to express it.

Um and it comes out sometimes when we don't want it to, or without us knowing how to control it.

I think those are the one-offs.

I'm thinking um forgiveness in those kind of situations when someone has wronged you and you need to go to confront them, that forgiveness kind of smooths the way for your anger to to simmer a little bit so that you can have a productive conversation.

Okay.

Well, Laura, I'm gonna I'm gonna turn the screws here a little bit on you, if you don't mind.

Yeah.

I'm gonna play a little bit of uh advocals advocate.

We say that sin separates us from God.

Okay, creates that division that uh uh that we need to be reconciled with redemption, that Jesus is that bridge for us, forgives us our sins.

So there we're separated from God.

If we won't admit that we're wrong and that there is we've sinned against God, we're not automatically forgiven by Him.

But you almost make it sound like we're automatically for supposed to forgive other people for the sins that they've done against us or the wrongdoings or the evil things.

God doesn't do it, he does forgive us, but it sounds like everything I've read is we really have to open our heart, what's in our heart, and really understand what we've done is wrong and really admit it.

It's like the prodigal son.

God, his father is more than happy to forgive him after he returns home, drops to his knees and admits that he was wrong and begs for forgiveness.

So, why isn't God just automatically forgive us?

Kind of feels like what you're asking us to do.

Yeah.

So a couple things there.

So, first of all, the prodigal son's father had forgiven him long before he came home.

That's why he ran out to meet him.

He didn't wait for him to fall on his knees, he went and met him on his run, on his way back home.

Um, and I think I think when we put God's forgiveness contingent upon our ability to ask for forgiveness, that turns it into another form of works, righteousness, right?

Like we have to say our forgiveness in the right way, and then we're earning God's forgiveness.

If we want to be in a reconciled, alive, thriving relationship with God, we absolutely need to confess our sins.

But God is merciful.

That's God's character.

God is always merciful.

Um, and so I think the grace that we United Methodists proclaim and believe in is that the grace of God, the mercy, the forgiveness of God, it goes before us before we even know it and before we ask for it.

We are forgiven for sins we never know we've ever committed.

We can't, we cannot confess every single sin we commit because we don't always know the sins we commit, right?

Um, and so God's grace is so much bigger than our ability to ask for forgiveness for that grace, which I think is part of what Jesus is trying to tie here is that God's forgiveness towards us is so much bigger than we can even imagine.

And and so our our approach towards forgiveness needs to mirror that.

Um, to have a reconciled relationship with somebody that is healthy and fruitful and thriving, and there's been a wrong done, for like asking for forgiveness from the person who's done harm is absolutely essential.

That is not always going to be the case.

Some people have been harmed terribly by folks who will never apologize, and if they do apologize, it will never, it will never undo the harm that was done, right?

But the key to forgiveness is that it's not for, it's not first for the person who needs forgiveness.

It's for the person who needs forgiving to do the forgiving.

Because that holding on to grudges, holding on to resentment, holding on to that anger and then unforgiveness, I mean, it really is like an infected wound.

And it just gets deeper and deeper and more and more infected.

And and I like to think of forgiveness as kind of like your fists.

So when we forgive others, we're kind of like opening up our fist of friendship to hold out hands of friendships to them.

And if we're not holding out our hands of friendship, if we're holding our hands and fists, we can't receive the forgiveness that God is giving us.

Like it's the forgiveness that we offer others and the forgiveness that God gives us are so tied together that we need to have that open stance of forgiveness in order to fully let the forgiveness of God transform us.

Is it easy to forgive other people?

Absolutely not.

I am not at all trying to say that this is an easy thing to do.

Um, but it's so essential for our spiritual health.

Okay.

I love your answer.

Love the response.

I'm trying to be uh not trying to be a jerk by uh pushing anyone on the spot.

I'm trying to be that person that's thinking back in in your head that you're having these questions.

That's right.

That's the purpose of the podcast.

That's your job.

Give an opportunity to ask some questions that others might have as well.

Um, because I agree with you.

I find it very, very hard.

It's much easier said to, oh, I'm supposed to forgive people versus actually doing it when you feel that pain that someone's wronged you, and then they won't admit it and they won't even ask for forgiveness or apologize.

That's right.

So we've uh I we could spend another hour.

I love talking, Matthew, and especially all the parables, but we're gonna move forward into Luke now.

And we're gonna jump into uh Luke uh chapter 23 and verses uh 32 through 43.

And the stage here is a little bit easier to set.

It is the uh crucifixion.

They are uh taking uh Jesus to the cross, literally nailing him to the cross.

Um, this is uh what is going on.

So, Laura, would you like to go ahead and read this part as well?

Absolutely.

Thank you.

So two others also, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with Jesus.

When they came to the place that is called the skull, they crucified Jesus there with the criminals, one on his right and one on his left.

Then Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.

And they cast lots to divide his clothing, and the people stood by watching.

But the leaders scoffed at him, saying, He saved others, let him save himself, if he is the Messiah of God, his chosen one.

The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine, and saying, If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.

There was also an inscription over him, This is the king of the Jews.

One of the criminals who were hanged there kept deriding him and saying, Are you not the Messiah?

Save yourself and us.

But the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

And we indeed have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.

Then he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

He replied, Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Well, excellent.

Laura, right off the bat, the very first question is kind of obvious.

Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.

Who is them?

Is it the Roman centurions?

Is it the Jews walking by hurling insults?

Who is them?

You know what?

That is the question for the ages.

The scriptures aren't clear.

The pronoun is there, and it's and it's the pronoun that it is.

And so I think that invites some good interpretive questions of given Jesus, who he was, how he lived, who would he be asking for forgiveness?

Probably all the people there, right?

Especially people who had harmed him.

I mean, he taught, pray for your enemies, bless those who persecute you.

Um, and so I I read it as he's asking for forgiveness for for everybody involved in this plot.

Yeah.

Which talk about someone, talk about forgiving people who haven't asked for it, right?

Right.

Jesus is offering this broad scale forgiveness for people who are in the act of harming him, but he can see that in their ignorance, they have no idea what they're doing.

Well, I think that's the key, right?

In their ignorance, for they do not know what they are doing, because if you know what you're doing, God, like we talked about, God knows what's in your heart.

You have a heart and heart.

Some people say that's the unforgivable sin when you know what you're doing is wrong, and you basically continue doing it, or you say you're claiming that uh it comes from God when it comes from Satan or vice versa.

So there's that knowing what you're doing wrong and uh continuing on ahead.

Do we still forgive those people?

I mean, even God says there's an unforgivable sin.

We forgive people that commit that unforgivable sin that have that hardened heart.

I don't know.

I mean, yeah, Jesus says, forgive as you've been forgiven.

And so as long as you've been forgiven and are forgiven and want to be forgiven, you gotta forgive.

Again, it doesn't mean that you justify what has been done.

It doesn't mean you say it's okay, it doesn't mean that you forget it, it doesn't mean that you reconcile with that person.

It means that your your stance towards that person is one that mimics Jesus here, saying, I'm I'm gonna take a step back and think of a bigger picture here.

And and there are times here they didn't know they were killing the Son of God.

They knew they were killing a man.

They I mean, and they knew they were brutally murdering him.

So I mean, they knew what they were doing to a certain extent, and it they knew that it was brutal, right?

Um so there's a lot to think through there of how Jesus was able to have that mercy in the midst of the harm being done to him.

Yeah, it's pretty hard uh passage to think in the guilt that a lot of people feel that they we are all responsible for uh Jesus' death and crucifixion.

I'll uh jump a little bit farther ahead past all the sneers from the passers by to the criminal who uh rebukes the other criminal for being a jerk, saying, free us, get it say, in other words, save me, and he uh softens his heart.

We've talked about what's in his heart, admits that they were wrong, and admits that not only does Jesus not deserve to be there, but he literally admits that Jesus is God.

Remember me when you come into your kingdom, literally admitting that the other people are Jesus is asked for forgiveness, they don't know what they're doing, and the criminal goes, Yeah, they know what you're doing, and you and it's wrong.

Yeah, there's that immediate forgiveness in mercy given by Jesus, but it's given to the criminal that asked for it.

That's right, not necessarily the other criminal, we have no idea.

I mean, you're right, and we don't know what Jesus said to the other criminal, but we know that to this criminal who was asked who asked to be a part of Jesus' kingdom, Jesus assured him that he was.

And I often get I often get people asking, can I, you know, so and so did this, can I forgive them of that?

And I say, Jesus free of the faith on the cross, right?

Like um there no one is beyond forgiveness.

Um and and again, I think it's important to remember that we're not God.

We don't have to arbitrate over who gives God, who who God forgives and who God walks into the kingdom.

That's up for God to do.

But for the sake of our own well-being, forgiving others is essential so that we're not walking around with those kind of thorns in our heart that hurt us.

And when we're hurt by that, we end up hurting other people.

Laura, I love that.

I love that response.

Um, so often I want to think, I want to do what God uh wants me to do and overthink it so much.

Just like God be God, and I should just concentrate on trying to be a better person and trying to forgive people because that's just like I want to be forgiven.

I'm sure I've wronged people uh unintentionally and probably have not asked for forgiveness because I've did wronged them and not even realize I have.

And I would want to be forgiven for those.

Um I feel that I need to have that compassion because um treat others the way you want to be treated, right?

If you want people to treat you compassionately, I think you need to show a little compassion to others.

And I guess I'll let the uh judgment and and punishment um in God's hands.

That's right.

In God's hands to just concentrate on trying to be a better person.

And like you said, try to forgive everybody that I can because um I would want I would want to be forgiven for my sins as well.

That's right.

Well, Laura, thank you so much uh for joining us today.

Love this uh conversation.

I'd love to go on further with it.

Uh we could take this off into a couple of different tangents.

This is the this is our whole faith, is it not?

I mean, Jesus came down and he's like he literally comes down and he's getting nailed to the cross and he's telling God to please forgive him.

Yeah.

So so that's where we are.

Yeah.

Well, Laura, how about a ending on a good note?

Tell us what's going on.

What's coming up here?

Uh uh, it's already May.

Pentecost is right around the corner.

What else is going on?

Pentecost is around the corner.

Let's see, we got um a uh a preschool mom's meetup coming up.

We got the men's breakfast and the car showcase coming up.

Um, and then our kids' musical is also coming up on May 17th.

So we got lots of fun things in the works.

Well, outstanding.

And all this information is available on the church website.

Please uh look at it in rumc.org.

And you can see all the uh different times worship services as well.

So I'd like to uh thank everyone for joining us today in our discussion.

I hope it was um beneficial.

I hope you got something out of it.

That's the purpose of our podcast, right?

So next week it's gonna be Kevin, right?

That's right.

Uh as we tag team, it'll be back to the Kevin to Kevin show next week.

But so until then, may the love of Christ be with you always.

So goodbye, everyone.

Bye.