Podcast: Behind The Scenes: I Love You But Do You Love Me? (Luke 15:11-32)

Good day and welcome to Northwall United Methodist Church behind the scenes podcast, where we sit down weekly and discuss this week's scripture and sermon.

My name is Kevin Van Hall.

I serve as your host and moderator.

Joining me today is one of the senior pastor, lead pastors here at Northwale United Methodist Church, Kevin Johnson.

Hi, Kevin.

Hey.

So last week we had Laura as we guys go back and forth and tag team in this series, I Love You But.

And Laura preached a great sermon on uh how do I forgive you, and I couldn't hold on to the rock more than about uh 30, 40 minutes.

And I set it down.

So it just uh shows you the burdens that sometimes that we carry unnecessarily.

That's right.

That's right.

So that was a a great example, the great uh um I don't know, sermon and an example.

Absolutely.

Example.

And we're gonna continue on this week with the series I Love You But.

And the title is Do You Love Me?

That's right.

Very, very uh interesting.

And I got some good questions about that.

Forthcoming here.

We're going to be in the Luke Gospel, and we're gonna be talking about the prodigal son.

Everyone, or most I would think everyone is familiar with this parable.

It's a very, very um talked-about parable in many, many ways.

And we might take a different approach.

Kevin, I think he's gonna take a different approach with it this time, so it's worth listening to our podcast.

And uh Kevin.

Well, I'm gonna try to ask some of those questions, but um it's the same questions everyone out there is already asking as they've read this parable before, I'm sure.

Uh before we get too much farther into it, how about a word of prayer, Kevin?

Yeah.

Oh God, who pursues us, we are grateful that uh we have the opportunity to hear from your word today, to talk to one another, to listen to what you would have us to hear.

God, we pray for open hearts and open eyes and open ears.

And uh grateful for the opportunity to hear from your word this day and always in Christ's name.

Amen.

Amen.

So as I mentioned, we're into Luke's gospel, uh chapter 15.

And beginning the first chapter, first parable in this chapter is the parable of the lost sheep, and then it goes into the parable of the lost coin, and then the parable of the lost son.

So there's obviously a theme here as it progresses forward.

So what is Luke or Jesus trying to tell us with all of these um parables about lost?

So I think on one level it's about God's, I mean, I pray like God who pursues us.

It's it's it's a God, it's about God's constant pursuit of us, right?

And um, and really that God's not willing that any should be left out of God's kingdom, right?

He says if if he's got a hundred sheep and he only counts 99, he's going to get the one, right?

He's gonna leave the 99 and go after the one.

If there's the lost coin, it's so valuable that she's gonna sweep up the whole of the house, and aren't you that valuable, right?

So, I mean, I think on one level it is simply about the value of each of us to God.

And it doesn't have to get a lot more complex than that, right?

So on one level, part of the beauty of the parables is that on one level, I don't need to preach, I I could read it and sit down.

Um it says enough, right?

So there's a beauty uh to the simplicity.

Now the I feel like the leaving the 99 sheep and going for the one, and the leaving and and and the look the lost coin, those are each a few verses, right?

They're not long parables.

That is what they're trying to say.

I think the prodigal son, I think Jesus also knew that there's more to it than that.

And so he gives us this much longer, much more complex story that illustrates the same point, but then introduces a third character.

So it's no longer just a widow or a shepherd looking for their lost thing, but it's a father looking for their lost son in this case, but then there's another son, right?

And so there's this other character that gets introduced really at the end of the story.

Um, and and that's where we're gonna focus some today.

Oh, excellent.

So, yes, we're gonna be reading the uh parable just to uh refresh everyone's uh memory about it, and then uh we'll talk about it and ask a couple questions about it.

Again, we are in Luke uh chapter 15, verses 11 through 32.

Kevin's gonna read for us.

Jesus said a certain man had two sons.

The younger son said to his father, Father, give me my share of the inheritance.

Then the father divided his estate between them.

Soon afterward, the younger son gathered everything together and took a trip to a land far away.

Then he there he wasted his wealth through extravagant living.

When he had used up his resources, a severe food shortage arose in that country, and he began to be in need.

He hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.

He longed to eat his film from what the pigs ate, but no one gave him anything.

When he came to his senses, he said, How many of my father's hired hired hands have more than enough food, but I'm starving to death.

I will get up and go to my father and say to him, Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.

I no longer deserve to be called your son.

Take me on as one of your hired hands.

So he got up and went to his father.

While he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was moved with compassion.

His father ran to him, hugged him, and kissed him.

Then his son said, Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.

I no longer deserve to be called your son.

But the father said to his servants, Quickly, bring out the best robe and put it on him, put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet, fetch the fattened calf and slaughter it.

We must celebrate with feasting, because this son of mine was dead and has come back to life.

He was lost and is found, and they began to celebrate.

Now his older son was in the field.

Coming in from the field, he approached the house and heard music and dancing.

He called one of the servants and asked what was going on.

The servant replied, Your brother has arrived, and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he received his son back safe and sound.

Then the older son was furious and didn't want to enter in.

But his father came out and begged him.

He answered his father, Look, I've served you all these years, and I never disobeyed your instruction.

You've never given me as much as a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.

But when this son of yours returned, after gobbling up your estate on prostitutes, you slaughtered the fattened calf for him.

Then his father said, Son, you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

But we had to celebrate and be glad because this brother of yours was dead and is alive.

He was lost and is found.

Well, excellent.

So again, we uh get introduced to the older brother there after the we hear the much uh story of the younger brother.

You think it might be a story strictly of forgiveness, but that's not our focus in this in this at all.

What is our focus?

Why did you choose this parable?

I think I I think from a certain van vantage point, it is that a lot of us, I think, feel like the older brother, in that whether that means direct jealousy of someone, or it's just an un an unassurance of God's love for us.

Um I want to focus, I'm gonna focus some on it.

John Wesley has a couple sermons about assurance.

He really struggled with this concept of assurance and how to know that I'm assured of my salvation, how to know that God really loves me.

So I am gonna have some focus there in the sermon for sure.

But I think it's it's this idea that we doubt God's love.

How could you love me?

Right.

And so the thing is, right, the father looks with compassion on the prodigal son.

He sees he sees him coming, he runs out to him, right?

And that's when the whole greeting happens and the prodigal son can't even get out his prepared speech that he has and everything like that.

But then, right, the father notices that he's not there, and the father came out and begged the older son, right?

He and he and he says, you know, he he hears him out and and and and and beg it says the father begged him.

And I just think that's a fascinating um description of God's pursuit and God's love for us.

I obviously his love towards the prodigal son is unbelievable.

The guy, I mean, you know, this you're not supposed to get your inheritance until your parents are gone.

That's the definition.

Right.

Right.

And typically the oldest would receive in this time and age all of it.

Right.

Yeah.

There's no splitting it.

Yeah, so I don't even know what that's all trying to say necessarily, right?

But he gets so he's basically saying, like, hey, yeah, give give it all to me now.

I mean, so the the younger son is just like, you know, a classic screw-up, right?

And I think it's a message of great hope, of God's love that even stretches to the worst things we could do and the most lavish stupidities and mistakes that we could make, that God loves us.

I think the challenge is for those of us who whose testimony is not as egregious as the prodigal sons.

That's the challenge.

This has always been the challenge for me.

I was a good church kid.

I tried to do the right things.

I had an adolescent period of being a jerk and making stupid choices like we do.

And then quickly came back around.

And sometimes I really resonate with the older brother.

And I think a lot of folks that sit in our pews resonate with the older brother.

And I think that's the struggle point is I mean we we, you know, there's this um, I've gone to youth events, both as a youth and then as an adult, um leading teenagers and stuff.

And whenever students get up to share their testimony or something, man, the ones that are like the worst are are the better testimony, right?

So we wanted to hear from the kid who like was an addict and and you know, ran off on his parents and everything like that, and basically did the prodigal son type of thing.

Yes, and they get all the attention.

They get the attention and the glory and the story.

And meanwhile, I'm sitting there with a bunch of church kids, and I'm like, I need to hear from the kid who like just didn't feel it for a little while, or wasn't like so.

For I think the message of God's grace, it's so pronounced to someone who has done clearly egregious things.

And then for those of us who whose sins seem minor relatively it's hard.

Yeah, exactly.

You you see the uh the person that's done all the sinning gets a reward for doing what they were supposed to be doing when you were doing it all along.

And and so there's so there's multiple stories here.

The first one being the younger son is also a story of repentance, and then it's a story of him coming back, repenting, asking for forgiveness, giving forgiveness.

Then there's a story of the young older brother angry and jealous.

And so we've we can we can relate with that.

He's he's got a right to be angry, yeah, right?

Does he not?

And jealous um of what's going on with his brother.

Why is he being rewarded for sinning?

You told me not to do that.

I've done what you've told me to do, and he's over there getting the party and the attention.

So then there's that that story of anger, how, like you said, how we often feel.

I'm sure a lot of people back in the day were to think of this.

Today, how often are we so angry at the person that we feel is sinning against God, and it's caused so much anger and division in this world.

So then the third story being, like you said, the father goes out, and my version is pleaded, sure, begged, and it was to come in and join in the party and join in the celebration.

He's like, Why should I join in the celebration?

I never got a celebration for doing the right thing.

You're giving him a celebration for admitting that he was wrong.

So is he has a right to be jealous?

Should he not want?

What's the father's response to that?

Right, but the father's response, right, is that you are always with you're essentially if we everything I have.

Everything I have is yours.

So you do have a party.

You're gonna have, I've got everything, you've got it as well.

You just don't re you just don't realize it.

You just don't, yeah.

You don't realize that you're already in my presence all the time.

You you take it for granted, right?

I mean, I think that's a key phrase in this is you take it for granted.

Um and yeah, and I think that I I do I I think that's a lot of the issue is that a lot of us good church folk, a lot of us older brother types, if you identify that way, we take it for granted.

Being in God's presence, we don't.

And so the younger brother testimonies that we hear, um they we're riveted by them initially, and then at some point almost angered by them.

When all we should be doing too is celebrating the fact that this person's life got turned around.

Well, I like the point you just said celebrating this person's life got turned around.

Not just turned around, the separation between this story and the first ones, like you mentioned, but just material, they were lost and they were found.

Jesus says twice, he was lost and then he was found.

He was dead and now he's alive.

Says it twice.

Yeah, says it again in in in the second part when he tries to plead with him to come back inside.

And it's not just a celebration that he'd admit sin, that he was dead in his sin.

And now, with the forgiveness, he's come back, repentance, yeah, he is alive.

So that's the that's the reason for the celebration.

Come and celebrate the fact that your brother is alive.

Don't be angry with the fact that he's getting a party.

Yeah.

I mean, it's pretty amazing when you think about what Jesus does in this, you know, 20 verses.

I mean, the the amount of depth that the amount of depth that is there and and that the story contains, and I mean, it's why it still touches, like it still touches the heart.

I mean, you're like, oh man, like I why does it still bother me?

Um, why does it like, you know, and what is it?

And why do I feel for the older son?

I mean, I think that's the question.

I think the question is because I see myself in him.

And then it's like, well, I don't want to see myself.

How do I and and so it has to be about celebrating those who were dead and are now alive?

Um, it has to be about seeking that.

I mean, I think, and I do, I when I'm thinking about this and thinking about this idea about assurance and thinking about being assured of God's love for me.

I think about the the parable of the workers in the vineyard, it's in it's in Matthew 20.

I won't read it all, but the the basic gist of it is this, right?

That there's a landowner and he's gonna pay people to work in his vineyard for the day, and he agrees to a wage with the guys who come out at seven in the morning, and they come and work, and some others come at eleven, and some others come at three in the afternoon, and someone else comes at five, and quit in time's at five thirty.

And at the end of the day, he pays them all the same thing.

Right?

And so someone worked for half an hour, and meanwhile, someone else worked for what, ten and a half hours.

And that's not the exact thing, it doesn't the exact doesn't matter.

Um and so the jealousy's there again.

The jealousy's there again, and and the and and in this case the landowner says, you know, they they they complain about it, they say, Hey.

They they all thought they would receive more, but he says, friend, I did you know wrong.

Didn't I agree to pay you a denarian, which is the day's wage?

Take what belongs to you and go.

I want to give to this one who was hired last the same as I gave to you.

Don't I have the right to do what I want with what belongs to me?

Are you resentful because I'm generous?

I mean, are you resentful because I'm generous?

Well, shoot.

Right?

I mean, and well, it doesn't seem just and fair.

We've been taught all along that God is just and fair.

We've been taught right from wrong, just and fair.

And for some reason it doesn't seem just and fair.

So is it our perspective on things of what is just and fair is is is off?

I think it's I think I I think that in our mind, justice has to equal I think we we so often use that image of the balance scale and of having, you know, that's a symbol of the court system and everything like that, right?

That's like the ancient symbol of justice.

Um that's not what God means when God talks about justice, right?

And that's in God's kingdom, that's not the way it operates.

And I think that's the the issue for us is that like we are so steeped in the economic virtues of market capitalism that we we can't understand the world in which there are not winners and losers, and those are equal, right?

So, so you know, uh whether you call it a piece of the pie or whatever you want to call it, if if someone else gets a bigger piece of the pie, then I get less pie, right?

Right.

If there's you know, if there's a hundred million dollars to be had and this other person gets more, well then I get less, right?

And in all the ways that works, right?

And so we're so steeped in that mindset, I think even probably worse than people we're hearing this in Jesus' day.

Okay, that we have we have an unlearning that has to happen that says in God's kingdom the economy doesn't work like that.

There's there is always enough, there's always more, there is there's an abundance, there is not this issue of constant scarcity that we feel.

And I do think that that's a real it's a real challenge because we are so accustomed to feeling a pinch, feeling like you got something good, so I don't get it.

Or and in this case, go back to Prodigal Son, and in this this message for this week, do you love me?

It it looks you jealousy, it looks like the father loves the younger son more than the older son.

Right?

If you want to equate it to everything we do, monetary value, just more than this or that, if greater than either.

This is this is this is kids counting Christmas presents.

Yes.

He got the younger one, got uh more Christmas presents than I did.

So obviously you love him more than me.

And since your your message, do you love me?

Is is that where we're going with this?

Is the other the oldest doesn't feel loved?

Yeah, I think so.

I think the old I think the oldest doesn't feel like the father loves him to the same degree.

And I get it.

And the problem isn't with the father.

The problem is that the son isn't aware and open to the love that the father has for him.

Right?

So in some ways, even though the son has been there the whole time, it's almost like he's not receiving.

He's not receiving the gifts of the gifts of the father's house, if you will.

Right.

He's not.

And and so there's something, there's something about an assurance both of salvation, but also an assurance of love when we're in a really, really solid relationship with someone.

You know, there's there's all the statistics, right, about um kids with steady home lives and stuff like that, and how how much resilience they have and everything, just on the basis of that there's never a doubt that they're loved.

Right.

And and that and how much that pours into a kid.

I think it's the same type of thing, except with God it's even magnified, right?

And so there's this sense of we the the older son isn't he's just not convinced that he's lovable or that he's loved.

And and and that is a and and I think it breaks the father's heart here, right?

And we uh I mean he's trying to get him to come in and celebrate, but also he's like, this party's not the same without you.

And so in some I'm gonna go on a limb here, in some standpoint like you said, like maybe the the story extends and he eventually comes to the party, is not the is not the lost son the older one.

Like because he's not at the party.

So like just to mess with the the paradigm of it, right?

Right.

Yeah, yes, he's he could be his anger and jealousy is actually holding him back.

It's just like Laura saying, it's your your anger and jealousy is not hurting them, it's hurting yourself.

And he's worried about he's angry with his father for the party but and jealous of his brother.

But where's his love for his brother?

Because if he did love his brother, he probably would have joined in and hugged him as well for for returning as well.

But it's we get caught up in this world to where we think that we can only love the people that are just like us and just worthy, and just worthy like us.

We can't give it freely.

We don't have a we have a problem with forgiving people.

Well, and this has to do, right?

This has to do with the this is part of what blows us away about God, right?

Is is is the un is is the unconditional love of God, right?

That that there is that's what upsets us about these stories is that God's love doesn't have conditions.

And we I mean, but is a condition.

So when we say I love you, but we are placing the condition.

And we do it every day.

You know.

But in our defense, we were giving the the entire Bible, Old Testament and New Testament.

It's not just the story of Jesus and love and God's love.

So often we see you read all about everything from the Ten Commandments, the rules and the laws, breaking God's law.

There's a judgment.

We've been taught our right from wrong.

This is right, that's wrong.

There's a punishment for a wrong.

Where's the punishment?

So that's why so often you look at this and go, where's the punishment?

Why, why do I need to do with right if I can just do whatever I want to do and at the end just say, oops, I'm sorry.

Sure.

Right?

And that's where it gets us wrong.

What's the incentive to well, yeah?

It's the classic, like, well, if I'm my deathbed, I'm gonna be able to say yes to Jesus, then maybe I should just go and do whatever the I want.

Yeah.

Right?

That's the that's the that's the concept behind the question.

And the answer would be uh because that's not the best way to live.

Because we're invited to live in God's presence and and and in the midst of in it as God's new creation type of people in the whole of our lives.

And we get to live in a way that not only honors God and brings glory to God, but also in a way that brings delight and also gives us purpose in how we live.

And and it's it's a much better way than just some hedonistic lifestyle.

Ask anyone, right, who's got a boatload of money and who just spends it on themselves, how happy they are.

Just look at, I don't know.

That's why we have all these celebrity gossip, you know, websites and tabloids and all that mess, right?

How many are happy?

Yeah, how happy was the youngest when he was out there uh starving, feeding pigs?

Correct.

When the oldest was being angry and jealous, but was nice and warm at his father's house and had a nice meal every night.

Yeah.

And and we think that, oh, it was great to go out there and blow all the waste all their money.

Uh, was he really happy?

Was he really happy?

Yeah.

And I mean, that's the it's the allure, the allure of not being within God's law or or not being within God's um the way that God calls us to live.

As if that's somehow going to be better, or like that's just the appeal of sin, right?

That's just like the the temptation to the temptation, yeah.

Right?

And so that, I mean, and I think that's why we're here.

I think that's why people are listening, I think it's why people are is because that allure is strong around us, and I know that there is something better.

It's like this the it's like that, you know, it's like the story of the sirens in Greek mythology, calling out, right?

The the the the siren of of wealth and prosperity is calling out all of the time, and especially where we live and sit.

It's calling out.

And it it it alone does not satisfy.

It will not.

You know, how many marriages broken, even among wealthy people, right?

How many like it is not gonna do it?

And so I do think I think that's the challenge, and and um and it is to also accept that God's unconditional, that that God's love, you know, it's it's 70 times seven type of forgiveness.

It's it's it's so much you can't even count it anymore.

And for those of us who identify with the older son, we have to recognize that we too have turned away from God's grace and we are not deserving of it.

So we are no more worthy than the younger son if we identify as the older one.

And just because just because I can't show you the record of the prostitutes and all the things doesn't mean that I'm more worthy of God's love.

And that's the challenge, right?

So that's the it's the it's the challenge of grace.

So anyway, that's it it it is, it is immeasurable.

We can't see it, we can't touch it.

Uh it's why it's called faith.

This is why a lot of people struggle with it.

Um and we won't go down the other rabbit hole of God loves us so much and why bad things happen.

That's a that's a different thing.

But just to know that God's love is there, and you say, But do you love me?

I gotta feeling like we've just talked about it's it's there, it's up to us to come in to the invitation when the Father comes out and pleads us to come in to join in the celebration, join in his love.

So I look forward to the uh sermon on Sunday.

We we took this in uh quite a few different directions.

I'd love to see.

I'd love to see uh which way you actually end up uh taking it.

Yeah, sometimes you get you get first reads, people.

You're you're you're you're getting fresh into whatever's going on inside my mind, so God bless you.

Um you go read John Wesley's sermons and change it completely.

Who knows?

So, this is another reason why you're gonna come out on Sunday, listen, because it might be completely different from what we talked about today's podcast.

Because there's so many good lessons to be said here in this in this parable alone that we've talked about and brought up.

And I want to appreciate you uh sitting down with us uh today, uh going through this, uh talking it out so often.

Like you said, we all relate to the older son uh so often.

And um, and God loves both the younger and the oldest.

So next week is going to be no if, ends, or buts.

I love you, but no if, ends, and buts.

And that's gonna be the very last uh one in this series, because then Memorial Day weekend is Pentecost uh Sunday, and then and the Trinity Sunday in May is over with and and June is here, and I'd love to see where the next series takes us.

But um for the shorts of it, uh we're wrapping up.

I love you, but next week, and Laura will be uh, I believe, joining us next week.

And then another couple other things that are going on this weekend is uh are coming up here.

Say uh big shout out to all the mothers out there for this is a Mother's Day on Sunday.

Yeah, so that I mean on Saturday there is a mom's meetup that's going on, so um so they're they're doing a flower ranging thing and stuff.

So I'd encourage any um any moms to sign up for that.

There is child care provided during that, and then then we also have a the United Methodist men's breakfast and car showcase this Sunday in in in conjunction with Wheels for Hope in that ministry.

So that's cool.

Um that'll be going on a Saturday.

That's all Saturday.

Yeah, Sunday.

You don't try to program things on Mother's Day, Kevin.

Don't touch that with a 10-foot pole.

That's right.

Yeah.

No, not a smart man wouldn't.

No.

All right.

Well, thank you.

So that's what's going on uh or coming up in the uh next weekend, and then Laura will be here and join us.

And please join us then.

So we're gonna sign off today.

Thank you for listening.

Come back next week, and may the love of Christ be with you always.

So goodbye, everyone.