Sacred Cows Make the Best Hamburger

Hey, hey, hey, welcome to Pursuing Jesus. We

are going to talk today about sacred cows. That's

right, you heard it here, sacred cows. You will

have to listen in, check things out. Today was

really awesome, so we hope you are excited and

ready to give it a listen. I felt like that was

something. It was an old ringtone. Is that a

ringtone? I think it's like an old Blackberry

ringtone. Yes. It's something. I used to have

it. That's why I know it. Okay, so what was the

Blackberry experience like? I couldn't tell you

it's been that long ago. Like a real keyboard.

I kind of miss it. Have you all seen the attachments

like they're selling on Instagram or whatever

where it's a keyboard that magnetizes to the

back of your iPhone and it slides down and so

you've got a physical keyboard to type on? I

do miss a physical keyboard. Really? Do you feel

like it would make more or less spelling errors?

Because those buttons are itty -bitty. That's

one of the reasons that I go for a big screen

because then you have... Bigger keys. Now, have

you seen Tiffany's phone? No, I haven't. What

does she have? I don't even know if they make

it anymore, but it's an older iPhone, but it's

called the iPhone Mini. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

it is tiny. That's not that old. That's like

maybe two, three generations ago. I don't know

if they've stopped making them. I think they've

stopped putting that one out. Dang. But it is,

it's a challenge to type on that one. Yeah. I

remember when my son got the first, like what,

XL iPhone. Yeah. And I was like. dude, they're

going to eventually come out with like a tablet

for a phone, you know, as big as that thing was.

And now I have the big one and I'm like, I think

it's the pro is what it's called now. Well, they've

hinted at the folding ones like because Samsung

has been doing it for five. I've been right,

but they've hinted at the folding ones that like

you can use it one way and then open it and it's

another way. Yeah, I don't know if they'll the

really funny thing about that though is before

touchscreen phone started coming out yeah the

trend was smaller and smaller and smaller yes

and now we're trending the opposite direction

but think about the usage of the phone at the

time we're smaller oh yeah it made sense um versus

the usage now i mean now it's like like phone

text social media people watching movies stuff

like that but back in the day when it was like

you got nine you know what is that the typing

call where you have to press 116 oh i had that

with my flip phone uh It is something nine. It's

something, I don't remember what the first word

is. T9? T9? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you didn't

have to push it six times. You could only push

it up to three times because, you know, it was

like if you were using the last letter that was

on that number, you pressed it three times to

use that letter, and then, yeah. Now, as much

as I want to go back to a physical keyboard,

I do not want to go back to the T9. Okay, that's

a bridge too far, you think? Oh, that's too far.

Yeah, I think we hit peak cell phones with the

slide -out keypads. You know, you had the like

the nice little click there and it was like a

T -Mobile had the best one T -Mobile because

it was exclusive to T -Mobile and they had the

sidekick which flipped out and I was always switchblade

phone. I was always jealous because I did not

have T -Mobile and so I did not have the flip

out keyboard that was it was and I was very jealous

of my friends at school who had the flip out

keyboard. Yeah, no, I hear on that one. Well,

speaking of... Speaking of flip out phones, welcome

to Pursuing Jesus. No. I think it's good that

the congregation hears some of the deep... rigorous

theological discourse that we have before we

press record sometimes. You know, it just goes

to show you that God cares about every aspect

of our lives, not just when we're explicitly

discussing theology. Including cell phones, right?

Including, listen, I think God has a lot to say

about our cell phones. I think that's a whole

different podcast right there. I mean, I'm dead

serious. Somebody write that down. So we've got,

we have AI. We talked about AI. We did. It was

a long intro. Long intro. But I still think I

heard some people that want more. Dead Sea Scrolls,

AI. Jesus and Your Cell Phone. That's three special

episodes. Just the topic of technology, we could

subcategorize that into a couple months worth

of podcast material. Let's just be honest. Digital

Jesus. We're going to find some zany name to

call it too. First century text 21st century.

That's why we have you. We have you, Mr. What

are you? He's not a millennial. No, he's not

millennial. You're Gen Z, aren't you? I am right

on the border. I was born in 99. dating myself

here um and so like oh yeah don't don't date

yourself too far with 99 no i said that for y

'all's benefit so i have some millennial tendencies

and i have some zillennial tendencies um but

there are people within my age range like hate

being identified with both groups urgency You

think decidedly I'm a Gen Z because you hate

being labeled. Yes, you're a Gen Z. Oh, shut

up. Man, congregation, what you just heard is

that hit right home. I'm not going to deal with

that. John, do you want to start us with your

text? Save me some of my dignity. Yeah, let's

do that. Let's do that. Yeah, I took April 26th.

It was a really short passage, and I'm looking

at the one in Matthew, Matthew 11, verses 20

Matthew 11:20–24

to 24, because there's a lot of questions a lot

of times that come up from this passage, simply

because Jesus calls out some cities. I mean,

really. really calls them out. I mean, 21, woe

to you, Chorazin. Woe to you, Bethsaida, for

if the miracles had occurred in you, which had

occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented

long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless,

I say to you, it would be more tolerable for

Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for

you. And you, Capernaum, which will not be exalted

to heaven, will you? You will be brought down

to Hades, for if the miracles that occurred in

you had been occurred in Sodom, it would have

remained to this day. And so he compares these

cities that he did his miracles in to some of

the worst cities in the Old Testament times.

I mean, just look at the last one. He said that

Sodom basically was better than Capernaum, right?

I mean, it's because of what he did in Capernaum.

That was Jesus' home base for a while. Yes, yes.

And so they saw some of the most incredible miracles,

whereas Sodom... really saw the judgment of God.

They, you know, I mean, let's just be honest.

Too little, too late, bud. He brought down fire,

brimstone, tore those cities up. Now, granted,

he did. Lot was a messenger of hope there. I

don't know how much hope he brought them. And

then those angels came down and visited among

them. But, you know, God brought down destruction

upon them because of their great sin. Whereas

Capernaum... as opposed to receiving the judgment,

they received the miracles. They got to see Jesus

heal the blind, make the lame to walk. Yeah.

All those incredible things. So what this says

to me today and what I get from it, I'm going

to kind of use a Spider -Man line. I told you

I was going to do that earlier. With great power

comes great responsibility. There it is. But

what it is is with more knowledge comes greater

responsibility. In other words, a lot of people

have asked the question, are there different

levels of hell? And the answer is, it seems so.

It seems that those who have greater knowledge

and deny it and push away from it, there is going

to be a greater judgment on them. Now, there's

another passage that teaches this in the Gospel

of Luke. Specifically, he who has much will be

beaten with many stripes, he who has little will

be beaten with fewer stripes. And it seems to

detail that those that have more knowledge. And

so I wanted to kind of equate that to Our country.

I wonder how much trouble are we going to be

in in America with the knowledge of the gospel

that we have and the denial that is put forth

in so many places. What do you think the denial

looks like here? Yeah, that's a good question.

Because I think there's an important distinguisher

here. So what do you think America's denial looks

like? Well, I mean, you look at how many people

want to talk about we are not founded on freedom

or, you know, a lot of people want to deny that

we were founded on Christian principles when

they came over, the Puritans and the different

ones that came over during that time. But I think

the denial really is the fact that you've got

to look at the northeast. If you've ever studied

the Great Awakening, the great revivals of America.

They occurred in the Northeast, and now the Northeast

is 1%, 2%, and 3 % churched. Connecticut, Vermont,

Maine, Massachusetts. These were the prime driven

places with great preachers like Jonathan Edwards.

The original seminaries and all that. Yes. And

now look at them with their denial. There are

so few. In church, there is such a transformation

of the seminaries, like you said, the colleges.

Most people don't realize this, but Harvard was

a Christian school. Isn't that wild? Yeah. And

then let's bring it down to the South where we're

at, right? The denial now is we want a Jesus

our way, not the Jesus of the Bible. And so I

think the denial is different from us because,

you know, In our own community, I think we are,

in Stanley County, 46 % churched. I think that's

right. When I was in Tennessee, the community

there was like 44 % churched. I've been in Alabama,

and in that community, I think it was like 56%.

So you're talking at least midway range. But

even in the church, there is a denial. of Christ

and his miracles, there's a denial of the true

and genuine Jesus. Yeah, absolutely. We formulate

him into our own opinion. So that's kind of where

I see America being in, almost, we're heading

kind of in the ways of Europe in a lot of ways.

Honestly, John, I completely see where you're

coming from. So one of the interesting trends

that... I feel like we watched happen in the

Northeast, and I'm a little nervous about what

I see here in the South. I mean, I'm from the

South. I spent a little bit of time in Ohio.

I don't sound like it, but I was born in Alabama.

O -H -I -O. Listen, man, it's my family. So Maddie's

family of origin is like they're they're Buckeyes

through and through when Ohio State has played

Alabama like like I don't get a text for a week

beforehand or a week after it's a party. It's

a party. So not to get us off on a too much of

a squirrel, but I am genuinely curious because

what I know of Ohio is OH and you responded with

IO. Is that a sports thing or is that a state

thing? Yes. So it belongs to a certain. It does

belong to a certain like. to the buckeyes the

ohio ohio state but you need to understand that

like it is deeply culturally unified. Dude, they

got OSU stuff every... So there's not like another

big college. They're like other Ohioans. When

her family comes down, you need to introduce

them to Kellen Rankin. Kellen is the biggest

Michigan fan and that is their main rival. It

is their main rival. I think, you know, Kellen,

no offense, I am not letting you anywhere near

my head loss when they come down. But no, it's...

It's real, dude. When they lost the national

championship relatively recently, like the Thompson's

went into a season of mourning. But isn't that

what they do in Alabama, too? Oh, 100%. All I'm

saying is that Ohio is singular focus. At least

in Alabama, you got Alabama and Auburn. And so

when they lose to one another, that other group

doesn't come to church. I know this personally.

I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. This sets me

up really well, though. So like these deeply

ingrained. sports rivalries and sports allegiances.

Listen, dude, I watch football. Not a bunch,

but I do. And there's nothing wrong with our

enjoyment of sports. But these deeply ingrained...

sports rivalries i think are indicative of traditions

that have become part of the culture yeah that

people just like dude they sink their they sink

their teeth into it and it's because it's fun

to do so but if you look at to bring it way back

to what we're talking about the northeast if

you look back at the direction that a lot of

the church populations went there. They didn't

just go straight from flourishing in the great

awakening to dead. Their very next step was to

idolize their traditions. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of

like a slow fade. Like that one song. Yeah. Casting

crowns. Shout out to them. Yep. but like they

need a shout out. They need some help. Do they?

No. Shout out Casting Crowns, the biggest worship

group that there is right now. They're doing

great. I just like their music. Listen, I got

saved. Oh, I love Casting Crowns. I got saved

through Casting Crowns song. Okay, I'm for it.

Dude, Mark Hall, full -time youth pastor, full

-time going and doing concerts. Incredible. Incredible.

Yeah. Full -time nerd. Yeah, for sure. But all

that to say, like, I think that the path to the

death of the church is paved with worshiping

tradition over genuine commitment to biblical

authority and genuine commitment to lay down

our preferences at the throne of Jesus. Because

then it has the appearance of godliness. I can't

remember where it says this in the Gospels. The

appearance of godliness, but it denies its power.

And this goes back to, I mean, it fit in exactly

in with what John was saying. And even we talked

about this, I believe, on last week's podcast

of the consumer mentality of church. Yeah. And

it's just all of it. It's so difficult because

we are consumer -minded culture. And so it is.

It's not like we're just blasting people, be

like, man, you need to stop doing this about

church. No. This is difficult for us as Americans.

Oh, yeah. It really is because everything. that

we do is we're putting the shiniest stuff in

front of our eyes, and we're doing all this stuff,

and it's all of this consumer -driven mentality.

And so, of course, when we get to church, we

are going to look for, hey, what do you got for

my kids? How good is your worship? How good is

the preaching? How is this? Or whatever it is

that you're looking for, whatever that niche

is. Niche? Niche. Niche. Niche. Niche. Thank

you. Whatever that is, you're going to go out

and look for it. Genuinely. And so, But that's

what we're talking about. We need to overcome

that. And we need to be able to look and say,

hey, just because we do this at the grocery store,

just because we do this shopping for cars or

whatever else in our American life that we do,

we need to realize this is not the same when

it comes to spiritual matters. No, but I'll tell

you this. So like a very close to home example

for me actually is with worship. So I'm going

to tell a story here. When I graduated Cedarville

with my degree, I had some very specific preferences

about worship music. I leaned hardcore contemporary

and like, just kind of like, like felt like the

hymns were dusty and dry and blah. The church

that I served at first hired me on to be like

a contemporary input to what is, was more of

a traditional context. And man, the first year

I was like, Oh, we're going to play come now

found again. Come on a mighty fortress. Seriously.

Like, like I had this attitude is like, this

is, this is, this is dead. This is old, this

is dusty. But can I tell you, the Lord convicted

me so hard about that when I was there. Both

in terms of letting me see the legacy of the

believers that have gone before us and left us

these rich hymns. But man, that was me putting

my traditions and my preferences over what the

needs of the church were. Because there were

people there that got fed by those. And the Lord

was gracious enough to humble me and teach me,

these have value, and if you put your traditions

before me, you will lose me. Hey, I've got a

question. Okay. And so I'm about to get us off

topic of... where we're going as far as the pursuing

Jesus devotion, but I'm staying on Bible. So

are y 'all cool with that? We're staying on Bible.

Let's do it. So, cause I have a legit question

that I think you might be able to help me with.

I've mentioned it that I've been, I've been reading

the Psalms along with the pursuing Jesus devotion

and I've been there. And there's a phrase that's

been repeated many times. And I'm wondering just

because of your degree, because of being worship,

it's about music. If you understand it, or if

you've looked into this, And what you just said

reminded me. And that is many times, and I believe

it's mainly David in his Psalms, he will say,

sing to me a new song. Why does he say a new

song? Do you have any idea? I'm just telling

you, we have not discussed this. I'm just throwing

this on you. Because he liked the contemporary

Christian group's new song. Please don't call

them contemporary. Moving on. They forced themselves

to stay in the winter gym. They were awesome.

Because they run winter gym. Because they run

it. And that's why they're still relevant. Their

vocal harmonies are great. But do you have any

idea? Yeah. So Colossians 3 .16. teach and admonish

one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual

songs. And so this is part of my own philosophy

of worship. The way I interpret that is psalms

is as believers sing psalms, P -S -A -L -M -S,

from the text that the Lord gave us, the Hebrew

hymn book, whatever, whatever. Hymns, I would

interpret as established songs of the church.

We've been singing these for a while. Let's draw

this out here. That has nothing to do with style.

Sure. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because back then,

dude, they didn't have organs. The Romans had

a water organ, but that was really expensive.

And it was mainly probably sung a cappella. You

should look it up. It's actually a water organ.

Yeah, so rather than running on air, it ran on

water. It was really neat. Nerd alert here. Now

I want to hear this. Spiritual songs. You should

look it up. It's very ambient, like the Minecraft

soundtrack. Oh, cool. spiritual songs, commentators

fight over this pretty consistently. Some say

songs that were spontaneous, like from that moment.

Some say songs that the Holy Spirit gave them.

Some say spiritual songs were just new stuff.

And I tend to give a big fat yes to each of those.

But what I think David means there is like...

Have you ever not been able to find the words

to express something outside of what you could

say yourself? All the time. Right. Like, if you're

only trying to use the words that other people

have given you, sometimes it just doesn't quite

fit. And so I think when David says, sing a new

song of the Lord, it's like, take what God has

done in your life for you through the power of

his Holy Spirit as he works in you and your experiences

and your personality, pour that back out as a

unique offering to the Lord. And the blessing

of that is that at times, you know, that gets

to feed even more people. Like, I had a buddy

who was at... a Chris Tomlin concert when he

sang how great is our God for the first time.

So like, like quintessential, like, like one

of the defining Christian songs of the, the two

thousands, how great is our God. And Chris was

like, you know, this is just a simple song we're

working on. Not really sure it's going to go

anywhere. We feel like we need to sing it to

you. Sing it. That was a spiritual song for Chris.

I think he wrote it. He wrote it. It was from

his own experience. It stood out to him at the

time. He shared it, and bam, it falls, I think,

closer to the category now of what I would consider

a hymn. Not stylistically, but it's a well -established,

accepted truth of the church. Interesting. When

you think about hymn, though, we always think

of what's in the Baptist hymnal or the Methodist

hymnal. And it's funny. Because if you look back

in the 15s and 1600s, those were the spiritual

songs. Yep. The contemporary songs. Uh -huh.

And what's funny to me, a lot of people, they're

so adamant about the hymns. And I love hymns.

Don't get me wrong. Holy, holy, holy. Oh, 100%.

Still my favorite hymn. It's a band. And There

is a Fountain is second, just because I wrote

it and love it. But anyways, a lot of those songs

were bar songs. Yep. And then they would change

the wording and sing it in the church. And people

that had been all night at the bar passing by

the church would hear the song and think, did

I drink too much? And end up going into the church

because they're hearing the tune to their favorite

bar song. Right. Which was a hymn. Was a hymn.

In our books now. And let's take that a step

further. They didn't have organs or pianos in

those bars. It was usually on a lute or a guitar.

both of which are predecessors of the modern

guitar. And so I understand not wanting to have

the appearance of worldliness, but you can't

just write off a whole instrument. I love that

you highlighted that, that that which is a spiritual

song can become a hymn with time and testing

and just the church singing those and getting

them into their hearts. But you know, thinking

about tradition, a buddy of mine gave me a book

in my first church, and it was called Who Moved

My Cheese? I know it sounds funny. No, that's

a good book. You have heard it. That's a good

book I've read it. No, not that. Move my cheese.

And it's phenomenal because it is the way we

get steeped in traditions. And he made his favorite

statement that he would make is. Oh, what was

it? Sacred cows make the best hamburger. Okay,

I like that. I've never heard that before. Oh,

man. My buddy, his name was Dale, and he used

that all the time. When he handed me that book,

he's like, you've got to read this book. He said,

but just know, sacred cows make the best hamburger.

And I died laughing, and I was like, I don't

think I'll ever use that in a pulpit, though.

Oh, no, you got to. Like, please. We have podcast

listeners now. They're going to be keeping you

accountable to see when you're going to use this

from the pulpit. I mean, I know we're kind of

being funny, but I think, so can you unpack that

a little bit? Because, I mean, we just kind of

skipped over sacred cows make the best hamburger.

Like, what do you think that means? Well, our

sacred cows are our traditions that we put up

there on the same frame as the Bible, right?

I've been in a church where the constitution

and bylaws of the church was more sacred than

the Bible. It was like, this is our guideline.

And so they made it a sacred cow. And we can

make a lot of things a sacred cow. We can make

it our choice of song. We can make it... I'll

just say it, a bulletin. We can make something,

a sacred cow that is really, it's not founded

in the Bible. It's just something that we have

created and made it sacred. And his thing was,

is listen, if it's not necessarily in the word

of God, it's not something that we should sit

there and hold in such high regard and high standard.

So he said, they make the best hamburger because

in truth, God would rather us grind up our sacred

cows like Israel with the golden calves to get

rid of those things because they are our idols.

They're not what God has intended for us as a

church. So following up on that, I mean, like...

What I'm hearing here with the sacred cow concept

here is that the people have a deep heart connection

to their stuff, their traditions, whatever, whatever,

that runs deeper in that one area of their lives

than their connection to the Lord. And maybe

they conflate the two. My connection to this

is my connection to Jesus. So y 'all have been

pastoring for a lot longer than I have. So I'm

really curious, how do we handle the barbecuing

of sacred cows? With grace. Kid gloves. Yeah,

that's what it is. Yeah. How do we do that? Recognizing

that people are like tied up in these things.

These have meaning for people, even if they've

outgrown their rightful place. And I mean, the

words you just used. Grace is that. And I believe

that comes in the form of one -on -one heartfelt

conversations. That's where I think it begins

is just sitting down and talking to someone.

It's like, hey, man, so tell me. Because there's

got to be a story. There has to be a story of

why this became so big. Sometimes it has to do

with what your grandma did. I mean, there's a

lot of stories there. Without knowing a story,

it's so easy to attack something. But you sit

down and you sit down and talk with them and

be like, hey, so tell me about this. Tell me

about why this thing is so important to you.

Hey, let's have a conversation here. And then

I think that always helps it out because then

it also humanizes both sides. Yeah, because you're

right. I mean, for them, it is. Usually it goes

back to, like you said, grandma or even mama.

And it's just like there's something that they

hold on to. It could be just a memory. And it's

like you're changing things, and this is the

way my mama always did it. This is the way my

grandma always did it. And when you begin to

change things, it affects people because it affects

their memories. And they're like, you're saying

that this is not good. No, it's not we're not

saying that it's not good. It's just we. I guess

the best way to say it is the way we used to

say it. God's word doesn't change, but the methods

do. And so we change methods, and some people

get upset with changing of methods. But I think

one great preacher asked, his church was dying.

I mean, it was a church of 70 and older. And

he asked his church, he said, listen, he said,

we're not reaching any young people. We are not

making a difference. What do we need to do? He

said, what do we need to do to capture your grandchildren?

And there was one 70 -year -old in the church

that took that and ran with it. And they started

a youth program and a kids program. that church

didn't die like most churches do. It survived

and it is thriving even to this day. So I think

it's that one guy mindset. Like if there's one

person who's willing to lay down their preferences,

be open and honest about what they're looking

for, but also be open and honest about like,

look, I'm going to set this down because I'm

pursuing Jesus over my own comfort. I think that

people rally behind those kind of people. Or

they crucify them. I'll give you like an opposite

side of that as well. I think sometimes sacred

cows can be things that are still good, but they're

keeping us from something great. So an example

that is in a different context and culture than

our church here, but in more of a suburban church

is all over the place, big churches all over

the place. I know of a church that they started

to look at VBS. And they're saying, everybody's

doing VBS. Everybody's doing it. Ours is fine.

And we're seeing kids saved, and we're seeing

all this stuff, and people are coming. But it

felt like everybody was doing Lifeway or Groove

or Answers in Genesis. And just people were just,

it was the same thing all the time. And so in

their context, they were like, hey, VBS is good.

What can we do that's better? And this was an

SBC church. They were willing to say, hey, how

can we make this better? And they completely

revamped it. didn't call it VBS, did a similar

thing, but they were willing to make those difficult

decisions, which I think showed a lot of maturity

for the leaders of that church saying, hey, it's

a good program. We like this. What can we do

better? I was like, man, that was awesome. I

wonder what that, so that setting aside the things

that are good for the things that are best. So

I wonder what that looks like in our personal

lives, like as we pursue Jesus, because I feel

like, Like, I think we can personally get in

kind of in Scots in our own traditions as well.

But like, what do you, what do y 'all think that

looks like for us as we're just like walking,

trying to pursue Jesus, like bump being a pastor,

like, like just as a Christian. Hmm. Well, and

this is something I kind of talk with my students

a lot about is I believe that I tell them that

it can be very easy to be aware of your sin.

You know, there's a lot of shame that can be

associated with your sin. There's a lot of guilt

that can be associated with your sin. And so

there's a lot of those things that my students

are very aware of. Like, you know, they realize,

okay, this is a problem. I need the Lord's help.

But they might not be aware of something good

in their life that's keeping them from Jesus.

Wow. Right? And so that's one of the things that

I really try to talk to my students about. Hey,

it's like, hey, your involvement with this, is

it keeping you from growing in the Lord? Like

it doesn't have to be something sinful. There

could be something in your life that is, let's

just call it out. Let's just call it out. Here

in Stanley County, a sacred cow. of our culture

is sports i mean i'm just gonna call it and now

i see and i have to tell my students because

there is a fine line here because we have some

amazing coaches that go to our church and that

i am very good friends with. And I believe that

sports, we even talked about it earlier, from

a broader standpoint, sports has its place in

our culture. And it has its place in gospel ministry.

Yes. I mean, it provides students with leadership

ability, teamwork, and there's so many positive

aspects. And you can bring Jesus into it. 100%.

However, I also see the opposite side of that

as well, where it becomes the... the over and

over excuse of no longer participating. But now

once again, so this is that opportunity to where

as pastors, do we just blame sports for everything?

Or do we go like the church that's VBS and say,

let's think outside of the box and say, how can

we still reach those people with the season that

they're in? Because if we just go to them and

say, You're terrible because your sports is more

important. How's that going to work? It's not

going to work. It's not going to work. We've

got to think outside of the box and think, hey,

how can we still minister to these families?

And that is where my high school Bible study

started from, as a way to think outside of the

box and how we can still reach those kids. And

it came from a teenager himself realizing, I

love sports. I love Jesus. I'm not getting fed.

Hey, Sean, what can we do? And for that to come

from him, that's huge. That's so good. I'll tell

you an example of what this has looked like in

my own life about having to set aside that which

is good for that which is best. I used to have

a very, very rigid system for doing my quiet

time. I would read a chapter. I would write down

what I got from the chapter and I would move

on. I inherited it from a youth pastor who poured

into me when I was young. I was very new in my

faith. And I think that was all I could handle

at the time. But during my college years, the

Lord really began to impress on me the importance

of prayer. Not just asking for stuff that I want,

but really more of an emotional connection of

opening my heart to the Lord and letting him

change stuff and being willing to work through

things in his presence. at his feet with that

Bible open in front of me, I had this weird tendency

to like, I would sit down and I would feel his

call. I wouldn't, I would know like, Oh, you

want me to pray? But for some reason I struggled

to shake myself out of, no, no, no. But this,

this is, this isn't, this is my, but I have a

system. I have a system. I have a, I have a plan.

I have, I have traditions. And he was kind enough

to even pull back some of his felt presence from

reading God's word that way to teach me, like,

hey, Ben, like, seek my face, man. And you will

find me in the scriptures. But if you're going

to pursue words in a page more than you're going

to pursue me, then you're missing the point.

You have the appearance of godliness, but you're

denying my power. So that's at least an example

of what it's looked like in my life of having

to give up something that is 100 % good, my process

for reading the Bible, for something that is

better, infinitely better, encountering God through

his word, but through prayer first. That's awesome,

man. And he's remixed it for me again, but this

time I listened better than the first time. And

I think it can happen in worship, too, if we're

not careful. Because, I mean, I grew up in a

traditional church where all we sang was the

hymns, and we sang the same hymns. It was on

a monthly or six -week rotation. Really? Yeah.

I mean, it's like they didn't know a lot of hymns,

and so they sang the same ones. You heard at

least Amazing Grace every six weeks, and Victory

in Jesus, and different ones like that. I don't

know. I think our worship has to grow. People,

they want to hold a hymn book, and then you've

got those that hold the tradition and are wanting

to sing it off the screen. And to be honest with

you, we shouldn't focus on a paper or a screen.

It's the person we're singing to. Amen. And we

seem to forget that. We forget that because we

want our preference of song. We want our preference

of the way we sing it. We don't want you to jazz

it up, or we want you to jazz it down, or we

want you to play it straight. And it's not bad

that we have particular ways we want songs, but

we've got to come to the realization in worship

who we're singing to. God is not concerned if

you add a drumbeat to a song or another instrument

that we may have never heard before. Well, I'm

going to break out the recorder next Sunday then.

Can I bring my brains, please? I want to hear

some different instruments. That'd be great.

Have y 'all heard Celtic worship? Yes. Oh, dude,

it's awesome. Ripping out bagpipes and in Christ

alone, sent me straight to the seventh heaven.

They are. They are on my Spotify. It's awesome.

In Christ alone, my hope is found. Oh, it's so

good. It's okay. Then if you're going to do that,

you're going to bring in Gregorian chants to

them. Don't tempt me with a good time. I would

love to do that. Can we move on, please? Because

y 'all are going to eventually bring up the banjo

and I don't want to go. Don't don't don't dudes.

Not the direction that I expected our conversation

to go. No, But I love that. It's like we just

ask questions of each other. That's church, right?

That's huge. That's community. It's the Spirit

working in and through us. I am for it. As a

matter of fact, this is a lot like what pursuing

Jesus looks like. I was going to say, in a lot

of ways, we were sitting there talking about

pursuing Jesus over and over and over again.

So it was great. Exactly. Well, speaking of which,

gentlemen, I have been Ben Smith. I have been

Sean Griffin. And I am John Ferguson. And this

has been Pursuing Jesus. Thank you guys for listening

and we will catch you next week. Bye everybody.

Pursuing Jesus is a ministry of Memorial Baptist

Church in Norwood, North Carolina. To learn more

about our church, please visit memorial4norwood

.com. Nothing really matters. Anyone can see.

It doesn't really matter to me.