Listening, Lists, & Liberty

Welcome to the Pursuing Jesus podcast. Today

we're going to be talking about listening to

the voice of God and lists versus liberty. We

hope you'll pay attention and enjoy this episode.

So tune in. Well, good morning or good evening

as it were. Hello at 3 a .m. Hello at 3 a .m.

We don't even post it at 3 a .m. It goes live

at 6. 6 a .m.? 6 a .m. Is that when it goes live

every Friday? Yeah, and I usually get a text

around 7 from a certain... From someone that's

waiting for it to go live. They want to be the

first one. That's because he's disappointed it's

not on at 3 a .m. Yes, and I changed it once,

but you know what? They didn't listen to it then,

and I was like, you know what? 6 a .m. I don't

have to be present for that. You could schedule

these things. It's 2026, guys. You know what

one of my favorite things to do is these days?

Schedule texts. Oh, it's glorious. Because so

many times... One of the times I guess my brain

is operating best is when I'm at the gym on the

treadmill and it's like six 45, 7am in the morning.

And I'm like, I don't want to text this person

right now, but I will schedule it right then.

And then that way they get it later in the day.

So here's the real question for you guys. If

you schedule a text, do you have to make it like

a weird time? So that like, it's like, Oh, it's

not at six. It's like 602. Cause I don't want

them to know I scheduled it. So I never do it

right at 12 o 'clock. Exactly. John never schedules

texts is what I'm seeing over there. I've never

scheduled a text. It is revolutionary. For an

ADD brain, it's life -changing. Glorious. Because

for me, it happens right before I go to bed.

And I'm like, okay, it's like 10 .30. I can't

text you right now. You're asleep. I was waiting

for you to be like, it was like 8 .30 and I guess

I had to go to bed. No. You know what threw me

for a massive loop? a couple of days ago, I,

uh, I was, we're going through our firebox for

something. And, uh, I got my passport out and

I glanced at it. It expires October, 2026. No

worries. And I was like, wait, yeah, that's,

you can't leave. That's, that's this October.

You can't leave the country with that. You got

to get that thing fixed. I do. But like my brain

just was like, yeah, 2026, I got plenty of time.

So I, I actually have not told either one of

you this. Okay. Uh, you're not an American citizen.

that is something i would not admit on a podcast

that goes on the internet if that was true there

would be so many legal ramifications to that

oh immigration i am an american citizen oh yeah

please don't take me away passport expire oh

my gosh so my passport is expired that's the

point of this story Um, I got an email inviting

me to go on a free trip to Israel. And it was

lit. This was not like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

This sounds like a, no, it was from, uh, it was

from the president of SLU, uh, student leadership

university, uh, that we do a lot of stuff with,

with our students. And they were partnering.

They were partnering with a lot of stuff that

the government was doing with Israel and they

were trying to get pastors to go to Israel. That's

crazy. And I was invited to go and I filled out

the application. I was accepted. And then I looked

and my passport was expired and there's not enough

time to get in. And I was like, well, that just

stinks. That stinks. So I missed out on a free

trip to Israel because I didn't keep my passport

up to date. And so you'd think I would have updated

it by now. Nope, it's still expired. I got to

fix that thing. If you get nothing else from

this podcast today, ladies and gentlemen, watchers

and listeners, keep your passport updated. I've

never been to Israel. And John, I know you have.

What was your experience going to the Holy Land?

And when did you go? Just kind of depends on

the mindset you go in with. If you're somebody

that reads and loves to see visuals, it's really

neat. I mean, I think the one that was really...

surprising to me was the Pool of Bethsaida, the

one that's in John 5. So, I mean, you saw a lot

of really cool places, but I went when I was

a junior in college, so it's been a long time.

I had one plan with my last church. We were supposed

to go in 2020, and COVID hit, and then it got

postponed to 2021. Israel shut down again in

21. And then in 22, they called us up and they

said, because we had already paid for it, they

said, well, we can chance it again to go to Israel

or you can go to Greece and Turkey and follow

in the footsteps of Paul. So that's what we did.

All right. But I will say that was disappointing.

The Greece one. The Greece and Turkey one was.

It was not as. I don't know. It wasn't near as

good as Israel. Israel was just, there was just

something about it. You know, you're, you're,

you're seeing the gospels come to life, but the,

the Greece and Turkey trip, you were on a bus

for like four hours going to each site. And so

it was like you were doing so, whereas in Israel,

you spend four days in Jerusalem. So, and then

you're like an hour, maybe an hour to Bethlehem

or an hour to Hoffa, you know, all these different

places. So it was just like it, there was nowhere

near as much traveling. So it's not as spread

out. It's more condensed kind of. a smaller area.

But it also makes you think when Paul was walking

to these places, if it took you four hours to

drive there, how long it took Paul to go from

Corinth to Athens and then to Thessalonica and

all that. You got to wonder, Paul's traveling

with Luke or with Barnabas at times or dragging

Timothy around or John Mark. What was that like

walking with somebody who... who saw the risen

Christ. I think at least internally, I have that

tendency to like, I don't know, overly sanctify

Paul walking around, talking in a calm voice,

you know, like, oh, Timothy, the things I've

seen. I bet it wasn't. I'm sure Paul was like,

dude, will this inn ever get our food out? You

know, that is an interesting thing. And these

are thoughts that I've had too when it comes

to scripture. I call them characters, but they're

historical figures, but they're characters. Oh,

they said characters in Scripture. But that's

the point. We get a little bit of emotions through

different passages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But one

of the things that the written word lacks is

personality and those different things, and it

would be so cool just to know some of the personality

traits of some of these people, to really know

this is who this person was from disability.

personality standpoint, not just the written

word. Yeah. I've always wondered those kind of

things. Those will be interesting. So anyways,

guys, y 'all want to get into some passages today?

Yeah, I think let's do it. Awesome. Awesome.

So I'm going to get us started. I'm going to

be in John chapter 10. I'm going to be looking

John 10 · chapter mention

at verses one through five. And this, if I can

pull out my handy dandy notebook. Blue's Clues

reference there. May 27th. So if you have done

that, when you like to turn there, if you like

to follow along. You know, that's one of the

things I've actually kind of wondered from our

listeners who I hope you're doing the devotional

books with us. I really do. That's kind of the

point of this that we're doing is to help you

guys out. But I'm really curious, when you listen

to the podcast, do you have your notes in front

of you? Are you kind of looking at what you wrote

down on those days compared to what we're saying?

You know, I've never heard any of that feedback.

And so, hey, let me know. know. Let me know if

that's something you do, if you ever compare

what you wrote or anything. I would love to hear

that kind of feedback, and so let us know. But

anyways, May 27th. It goes all the way down to

verse 10, but I just want to read the first five

verses, right? I mean, the big verse is verse

10, and so that's the one that a lot of people...

will really focus on, but there's something that

Jesus says, and it's all Jesus speaking in the

first five verses, that caught me a number of

years ago, and it's something that I love to

use to talk with my students about, and something

the Lord really worked in my life as well to

help me understand my relationship with Him.

And so let me read it. It's only five verses,

and then let me tell you kind of what I want

to say. So here it goes. Truly I tell you, anyone

who doesn't enter the sheep pen by the gate but

climbs in some other way is a thief and a robber.

The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd

of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens it for him,

and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own

sheep by name and leads them out. When he has

brought all his own outside, he goes ahead of

them. The sheep will follow him because they

know his voice. Hint, hint, I'm going slower

as I read that. They will never follow a stranger.

Instead, they will run away from him because

they don't know the voice of the strangers. So

it's that whole idea of understanding the voice

of Jesus. And this has been my encouragement

to so many people that are young in their faith,

whether that's age -wise or spiritually. And

one of the questions I get is, how do I know

if I'm listening to the voice of God? And that

is such an important question because there's

so many times where we might be praying about

something and it can be more obvious. We're praying

about something. But there's other times that

we're going to be praying about something. And

because of conflicting emotions that we have,

here's a big one that might be silly to some

of our listeners, but it is honestly important

to some of our students. And that's dating, right?

Yeah, for sure. There's some guys, they're going

to look at a girl. They're going to say, that

girl looks really good. I want to date this girl.

Let me pray about it. And sometimes they're serious,

right? And when they're serious, It can still

be difficult to discern, am I listening to my

own fleshly desires that really want to date

this girl? Or is this something that it would

be a godly relationship? Absolutely. Like that's

hard to discern when there are emotions attached

to it or there are other desires attached to

whatever's going on. And so this is what I tell

my students. The more you know the voice of God,

the more you're going to be able to discern,

okay, is this me? Or is this the Holy Spirit?

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so the illustration that

I use so often for that is my wife on the phone.

Okay. So follow along with me, right? I've been

married now for just a few weeks over 19 years.

We just had our anniversary not too long ago.

And so we're at 19 years, and we dated for a

few years before that. And so I've been with

my wife essentially for 20 years. And we definitely,

you know, we grew up in the time where actually

talking on the phone and not FaceTime or texting

was a thing. And we talked on the phone and we

actually had a long distance relationship through

college. Really? Yeah. And so we talked on the

phone a lot. And so my wife is someone that.

I know her voice immediately. Yeah. Absolutely

immediately when I'm talking on the phone. My

daughter, Cora, loves to play this game, and

she still does this today all the time. Okay.

Where I will call my wife's cell phone, and then

my kids are homeschooled, so they're always home.

Right. And my daughter, Cora, will answer the

phone, and all she'll say is hello. That's all

she'll say. Okay. But immediately I respond,

Hey Cora. And it frustrates the mess out of Cora.

She wants to trick me. Yes. She's trying to mess

with me and it's just one word, but that one,

and you know, she's, and she's tried it now for

a year, but still she has never been able to

trick me. Not saying she never will, but right

now she's never been able to trick me. And it's

not because. Essentially, I know Cora's voice.

Yeah. But it's because I know my wife's voice

because I talk with my wife all the time. And

even one singular word of someone trying to trick

me, a .k .a. wolves in sheep's clothing. Don't

look too deep into that illustration. Wolves

in sheep's clothing cannot trick me. I know my

wife's voice. And so I tell the students, the

more time you spend with Jesus, the more you're

going to hear his voice. How can you expect to

have discernment over spiritual matters if the

only time you spend in God's word is Wednesday

night and Sunday morning? Yeah. You're not going

to know the voice of God. You have got to spend

quality time with Jesus. You need to be spending

time with him because you desire to get to know

him better. And the more you do that, the more

you're going to know his voice. And here's the

interesting thing to me about this passage. The

sheep hear his voice and he calls them out, or

he calls out his own sheep by name and leads

them out. For me, one thing that I think about

is that before we were following the voice of

our shepherd, we were following some other voice.

And I think that varies person to person, right?

Either the voice of the society that we're living

in, this internal sense of what is right or wrong,

or just this internal sense of these are my desires.

I think there's part of the process of learning

to hear the Savior's voice or our shepherd's

voice. is recognizing the voices that we've been

listening to and that we're still listening to.

There are so many different voices that input

into us, and we have to choose what to do with

those. There's a discernment factor there. And

I think for me, there have been times in my life

where there's been what I would probably consider

a neutral voice, that the Lord has said, mute

that voice because I want to speak to you. And,

you know, one of the things going on, and I use

dating as a funny example. It ain't that funny,

Chief. But like I said, it's real for them. I

mean, these are big decisions for them, but it

goes beyond that. I mean, you think of many of

– we're in graduation season, and many of them

were wondering about the college they were going

to go to and trying to make that – that's a big

choice. That's going to influence the people

you're hanging around with, the type of community

that you're putting yourself in. And so the choice

of what college you go to is a big one, and I

think it's something that should be prayed about.

I've even seen experiences where – There's been

some well -meaning parents that have given their

students advice, and honestly, they should have

listened to the Holy Spirit. Let me say the example

so I don't have parents mad at me, right? Let

me give you one example. So I had a student a

number of years ago that was feeling called to

the mission field. He felt like this was something

they wanted to do. This freaked out their mom

so much. Scared mom to death. And was like, no,

you are not going to go on the mission field.

Absolutely not. So the girl ends up going off

to college. While in college, she gets the chance

to study abroad. And all of a sudden, mom's all

about that. Really? Yeah. And unfortunately,

when she went off to college. She didn't go to—she

fell in with the wrong crowd at college. We'll

just put it that way, right? And so those were

no longer desires of her heart that she had when

she was younger. And I was just like, man, I

wonder what would have happened if you would

have listened to the Holy Spirit, helped to guide

your parents through this process and this decision

instead of not. And so those are hard situations,

but that's why we need to know the difference

between the different voices that we're listening

to. Yeah, absolutely. That's why I think verse

5 is really unique, too, if we miss this. It

says, yet they will by no means follow a stranger.

If you look at that, you realize that they're

not going to follow. false teachers. And that's

what Jesus is getting a point across is that

if you know the Savior, you're going to follow

his voice. But I love this because Paul talks

about this in Ephesians chapter four, and it's

when he talked about equipping the saints. And

he talked about equipping them for the work of

the ministry, for the education of the body.

But he says this, he says, and of the knowledge

of the Son of God to a perfect man, to the measure

of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that

we should no longer be children tossed to and

fro and carried about with every wind of In other

words, a true Christian who follows Christ, hears

his voice, and will not be dragged around by

every doctrine or every whim that's out there.

And, I mean, we live in a society where, I mean,

I remember growing up. Pastors on television,

right? I mean, they would teach all kinds of

crazy, crazy mess. There's demons attached to

your thrift store finds. Oh, my goodness. Or

there's demons in certain buildings. And I'm

like, the only thing we ever see a demon possess

is a person in Scripture, not a place. And there

were just so many things like that. But the slaying

of the spirit was a big thing when I was growing

up, right? The Benny Hens, the different ones,

they were just throwing their hands out and people

would fall over. It was a lady in our church,

and she made a statement because a lot of the

churches were falling into that, this being slain

in the spirit. And she said, you know what? She

said, there's no need in somebody catching you

if you're slain in the spirit. And he said, yet

in every case, you see them catching them. And

she said this. She said, if the spirit will slay

you, he'll lay you. In other words, he's not

going to hurt you. But it was just, it's one

of those things, there's so many voices that

are out there, in particular teaching things

that are not scriptural. And he says here, Yet

they will by no means follow a stranger, but

will flee from him, for they do not know the

voice of strangers. We live in a day and age

where there are a lot of people out there speaking

and saying they are talking the voice of God,

that they are bringing his word, and they are

leading people astray greatly. And he says here,

my sheep are going to follow my voice. They're

not going to follow the voice of a stranger.

The only way that happens... is knowing the voice

of God. It's digging into His Word. It's hearing

clearly from Him. And so I worry about those

Christians that don't dig into the Word of God,

that do only get it Wednesdays and Sundays. Do

they really have a relationship with God? Because

I'll tell you, I wouldn't just talk to my wife

on Wednesday and Sunday. I've got to spend time

with her every single day, as we should with

God. So here's the question. Verse 5, like you

said, Strangers, they won't follow, but they

will flee from the stranger. They do not know

the voice of strangers. And Jesus is making this

point of, listen, I'm the real thing. I'm not

the counterfeit. And we've spent time kind of

exploring what it looks like to recognize the

real thing, or to recognize the counterfeits

because you know the real thing. Here's my question

for you guys. What about when you feel like you

can't hear his voice? Because I think it comes

in all Christians' lives, usually in a time of

difficulty. Absolutely. Where when you come to

the scriptures, man, they just feel dry. Or when

you go to pray, it feels like it's bouncing off

the ceiling or the nearest hard surface around

you. When you go to do community with believers

and experience the fellowship of the Holy Spirit

in that way, you still feel alone in a crowded

room. What do we do when... When we seek our

shepherd's voice, but we can't hear him. I figure

the problem's me. And it usually, well, no, it

always is me. It's not that God doesn't speak.

And truthfully, the Bible talks about this. It

says if there's sin in my heart, it puts a veil

between me and God. It's in the book of Isaiah.

It's in the book of Psalms. So it's me. I've

either clogged up my ears, don't want to hear.

truly hear from God or something's wrong with

my heart. And so usually if I'm not hearing from

God, I'm begging God to show me, am I just not

listening or do I have sin in my heart that's

keeping me from wanting to hear from you? So

from what I'm hearing you're saying is that that

silence becomes an indicator for you. Yes. It's

an indicator that something is amiss. Well, if

Maddie stopped talking to you, would you think

something was wrong? I sure would. I sure would.

You know what's funny about that, though, is

that, not the Maddie and I part, but the silence

being an indicator, in a strange way, that still

feels like a call towards relationship to me.

That if the spring of words and closeness with

God that we feel like goes dark, that one, we

know he's everywhere. His Holy Spirit lives in

us. And he's also physically present everywhere

else, the same as us recording this podcast.

And for you who are listening, he's in the car

with you or wherever. He allows the warmth of

his presence to grow just a little colder to

call you into deeper relationship with him. There's

a part of it. And that's something that I've

noticed, too, exactly what you just said. When

I've gone through seasons of difficulty like

that, where I was unsure if I was hearing the

voice of God, and it's very difficult times,

and when I've responded to it correctly, and

as I get older, and hopefully this continues

to happen, I feel like I do respond to it correctly,

I notice it draws me into deeper waters. than

I was usually at beforehand. And it does. It

draws me into a deeper relationship with Jesus

because I'm more relying on Him, more trying

to get rid of the outside voices that are speaking

to me and focus everything back onto Him. And

so that's what I've done sometimes for periods

of life. It's like, okay, what are some distractions

that I have right now that might be keeping me

from my relationship? And I'll really just start

thinking about my days or my weeks and say, okay,

I need to cut this, cut this, cut this. And sometimes

I might bring that thing back into my life later.

Sometimes I don't. I mean, just for me, and this

is not... for everybody. Yeah, it's a description.

But I've cut social media off my phone. The only

thing I have on there is TikTok. Everyone wants

to follow the scroll, but I used to spend way

too much time on Instagram and Facebook and Snapchat.

I've slowly cut all of those off of my phone,

and it has radically changed me mentally. Really?

By getting those off of my phone. Like I said,

that's not for everybody, but it's something

I needed, and I noticed it affected my relationship

with the Lord. And so because of that, that's

one of the ones I haven't gone back to. Now,

when I was a young man and I was newly married,

I had to cut video games out of my life. I did.

It was affecting my relationship with my wife

and the Lord. And so there was a period of time

that I literally sold all my games and did all

that stuff because I needed it out of my life.

Now, I've gone back, and I love playing video

games now. But there was a time. There was a

time that I had to get rid of it in my life.

And so that becomes a sacrifice, though. And

isn't that what worship is? That's exactly what

worship is. That's exactly where I was going,

dude. That it is giving up something of value.

Like, I'm reminded of when David is, you know,

David's trying to build the temple, and he wants

the ground to build the temple, and there's that

threshing floor there, right? And the dude's

like, dog, I'll just give it to you. Like, I

love Yahweh. You love Yahweh. You're also the

king, so, like, I really can't say no. So, like,

just have the threshing floor. David's like,

I will not offer the Lord God. something that

costs me nothing. And I think that he's the one

who determines the price that we pay, quote unquote,

the price that we pay. It's like you said, God

has not unilaterally asked every human that has

access to an Xbox or a gaming PC to give up video

games. But when you hear the voice of the shepherd

say, I'm offering you something deeper. Or maybe

to use a better word, a more biblical phrase,

follow me. That is a price worth paying. And

I think the follow me does fit as well with the

seasons of like, I didn't play video games then,

I play a little bit of video games now. But the

way that I play them is different and the heart

that I approach them with is different. Jesus

dragged his disciples. into Judea. He took them

to the 10 cities outside of Israel. He brought

them to Jerusalem. He took them to Tyre and Sidon.

You know, different seasons for different emphases

and different things. Well, that was a really

good conversation, fellas. But let's move on

to another text. So, Ben, I think it's your turn.

I got you. Yeah, I'm internally trying to resist

the urge to talk to you about video games. We'll

do that off mic. Let's keep it moving. Let's

keep it moving. Yes. So I focused on the Luke

13 passage. This is from May 23rd. Jesus does

a little bit of a controversial healing on the

Sabbath. So I'm going to read this text. Now

he, who's Jesus, was teaching in one of the synagogues

on the Sabbath. And behold, there was a woman

who had a disabling spirit for 18 years. Wow.

She was bent over and could not fully straighten

herself. When Jesus saw her, he called her over

and said to her, woman, you are freed from your

disability. And he laid his hands on her and

immediately she was made straight and she glorified

God. But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant

because Jesus was healed on the Sabbath, said

to the people, There are six days on which work

ought to be done. Come on those days and be healed

and not on the Sabbath day. And then the Lord

answered him, You hypocrites! Does not each of

you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey

from the manger and lead it away to water it?

And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham,

who Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed

from this bond on the Sabbath day? As he said

of these things, all his adversaries blip up

to shame and the people rejoiced at all the glorious

things that were done by him. A lot to unpack

in this text, like even in terms of like demonization

manifested as physical sickness and illness.

But the thing that stood out to me was the two

responses we see to God's power. When that lady

is healed. she immediately gives glory to God.

She gets it. She recognizes that this is an act

of the Lord. This is within his will. This is

something that he is doing for his people. This

is redemption. But the leader of the synagogue

is caught up in his own internal rules. And so

it leads him to make this like, like very like

snide aside. Cause it says it was indignant.

And he said to the people, He watches this go

on and he's like, y 'all saw that here, you know?

And once again, like, like it's easy to dunk

on the Pharisees and the Jews at the time. The

thing, the heart work that I brought out of this

for me was what rules am I holding on to or what

presuppositions about what my life is supposed

to look like are preventing me from giving glory

to God with what he does. Because, guys, there

are stuff in all of our lives that we look at

him and we're like, why? Why? This isn't in the

right order, God. Or this is not the way that

I wanted this to go. This is not the coffee I

ordered. I wanted oat milk. But in that, we miss

what he's doing in the middle of something that

surprises us. So that's what I pulled from this.

Is there an area where I'm being a hypocrite

like those people, recognizing what I call good

and claiming it higher than the good that Christ

has? You know, I wasn't even thinking of it like

that. And I'm always talking about how we should

put ourselves into Scripture. And it's so true,

man, because you look at this. And like I said,

it is so easy. It's so easy just to make fun

of, dunk on, as you said, the Pharisees and the

way the people respond. But we still do the same

things. Like I said, it's not laid out in Scripture

as obvious as this, because we read this and

we're like, come on, man. Indignant over someone

getting healed? Really? Like you made Jesus get

an exclamation point. You know how hard it is

for them to... But it's so true, man, that we

still do the same things today. And I personally

feel a great deal of tension internally about

when people are saying God is working in ways

that I don't understand. Like, John, you had

mentioned earlier the slain in the spirit thing.

I have no experience with that, and I haven't

really spent a lot of time in charismatic churches.

I tend to work at ones that look like this, and

so that's just not my area. And when you get

to stuff that doesn't look like it's there in

Scripture, there are questions. But I also know

people that are within that denomination that

have experienced real fruit. I know people who

have received a prophetic word or who view tongues

differently than I do theologically, that that

has blessed them and moved them closer to Jesus.

And so there's this weird tension of like, God,

I don't really... This is not as obvious as I

would like it to be in scripture. How do you

handle this? What do you think about this? And

I look at Jesus's... the first thing he says

to this woman, you are freed of your disability.

He doesn't say be healed, which he says a lot,

but you are freed from your disability. And it

makes me think that when we get to the end of

all this, when the role is called up yonder,

as it were. I'll be there. I told you you'd finish

any song lyric I quoted. When the role is called

up yonder. It's not going to be like, all right,

get out your fact sheets. Which denomination

got the closest to what God's real intended thing

is? It's going to be you are freed from your

disability. You are freed from your sin sickness.

And I don't care whether you believe that the

body of Christ is literally the bread and the

wine at communion, you believe in being slain

in the spirit or holy laughter, or you believe

that congregational singing is an opportunity

to stick your hands in your pockets and mumble

a couple of words. Like, he will free us all

from what binds us and keeps us. But the issue

is we like lists more than liberty. Come on.

So that's really the problem, and that's what

Galatians is all about, the freedom that we've

been given because it's easier to follow a list.

I mean, I'll be honest with you. My first church

down the road was a church that, I mean, when

I say a list, they had a list of things you had

to do to go to heaven and what was sin and what

wasn't sin. I mean, they had it down to a T.

Women didn't wear pants, and men had to wear

suits when they came to church. Really? Yeah,

if you wanted to go to heaven. If you had to

go to heaven. Those were salvation issues? Yes,

at this church. Now, it wasn't a church I was

at. It was a church down the street. No, no,

no. This was a church down the street, and it

was the largest church in Asheboro. Interesting.

So it was really surprising because, I mean,

they would bus these kids in and actually do

their Sunday school classes and stuff on the

bus. And anyways, it just, it's... Even today,

there are these churches that are thriving because

people want to list. It's easier if they know

A, B, C, and D versus saying, okay, I've got

to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Does

this convict my conscience? Because to be honest

with you, some things that are sin for me may

not be sin for you because of the freedom that

I have in God. This woman, I mean, she was experiencing

that because here was this list that these Pharisees

had. And I mean, it's funny to me that somebody

would go to Jesus and say, hey, look, you're

messing up our list. And instead of him saying,

you know what, I apologize for messing up your

list, he just looks at him and goes, your list

is garbage. Yeah. You know, you hypocrite. So

I'm sorry, sir. I don't see your healing on the

Sabbath permit, you know? Yes, yes, exactly.

Exactly. And so, I mean, it's just two points

on your license. It's just one of those things

where, you know, again, it's now that doesn't

give us a freedom to just go out and sin. The

Bible says, don't do it. Don't. do it well and

shall we send the gracious abound more by no

means i mean paul says that yeah so but here's

where i tell people like on other issues that

are not specifically stated thou shalt not okay

i tell them three things one does it bother my

conscience right because the bible makes it clear

if it bothers your conscience that's the holy

spirit speaking to you it's a sin for you you

know for some people It's a sin to go to rated

R movies for other people. They feel the freedom

and lacks to be able to do that, right? And so

they've got that freedom, at least they feel.

So if it bothers your conscience, you don't go,

right? The second one is, does it offend a brother?

Now, this is a very, you got to be real careful

with this. You do. Because let's be honest, the

people that are very ultra conservative, they

can say, well, that offends me. Well, no, no,

that's not the offense. The offense is, I'll

use an alcohol as an example. A guy struggles

with alcoholism. He's a drunk. He finally gets

free of it. But he sees a brother in Christ now

participating in it. And he sees that he's got

the freedom to do it. And he says to himself,

well, I'm going to go back. And so he goes back.

He falls. That's the offense. It takes him back

into a place where he doesn't need to be. Yes.

And so there is... The other issue, does it cause

a believer to be offended? The third thing is,

will it affect my witness as a Christian to a

non -believer? If I can answer all three of those

in saying this is not impactful, then it's not

a sin to me. But if in any way, any of those,

then I have to say, okay, it's a sin to me. Now,

that doesn't mean I now get to put it on you.

Right? There's that freedom, that liberty. I

don't put that on you. God has brought it to

my attention. Jesus is the one who decides what

to ask each specific one of us within the realm

of the laws that he's laid down. So my list may

be different than yours based on the liberty

that we have in Christ. Go Flames. Oh, different

liberty. My bad, my bad. There you go. No, that's

a great point to bring out. And it goes back,

all the way back. to the listening that Sean

was talking about earlier. If you're not locked

in and listening to the Holy Spirit, you're not

going to know what he's asking you to do or what

he's freed you to. Yeah, it's both of those things.

Well, gents, this has been a fun conversation.

We never know exactly how these are going to

go. We don't. We talk about, hey, what text are

you going to do? But that's it. But that's never

real. Like we don't, we don't go super in depth

into it beforehand. And so seeing the way that

those line up, I really hadn't even taken mine

that direction either. Yeah. But no, I love it.

What happens when we get together and we talk

about scripture. So guys, anything else y 'all

want to add before we sign off here on pursuing

Jesus is episode 21, by the way, summertime and

the living is easy. It's summer, man. It's summer.

Would you say blackjack? No, John would never

say that. He doesn't know what that is. He's

an SBC preacher. He doesn't know what blackjack

is. Oh, man, look at his face. He's royal flushing.

And with that, I have been Ben Smith. I have

been John Griffin. And I'm John Ferguson. This

is Pursuing Jesus. We're grateful for you guys.

We'll catch you on the next episode. Later. Goodbye.

Pursuing Jesus is a ministry of Memorial Baptist

Church in North Carolina. To learn more about

our church, please visit memorial4norwood .com.

Say that line one more time. No!