I Will, Sir

Well, what's up, pursuers? Pursuing Jesus homies.

How you guys doing? Howdy ho there, neighbors.

Howdy ho. Howdy ho? Is that what we say now?

Do I need to say that to people? Please don't.

It sounds offensive. It could be. It absolutely

could be. Dude, this is our 28th episode here

at Pursuing Jesus. That sounds like no big deal.

actually. It's like, you know, if he was 25 or

30, that's like, whoa, no way. This is 28. Cool.

We've made it to 28. If episodes of podcasts

are years of life, like in podcast years, you

know, like in dog years, cat years, then this

episode, or that our podcast is officially older

than I am. Wow. That's a weird way to look at

this. It is a weird way to look at this. We'll

get to yours too. So are we going to... Is it

going to end on 52? I mean, I feel like that's

the... I guess so. They're 52 weeks of the year.

We pursue Jesus 52 weeks of the year. Man. Unless

you and I both hit a wall on around Christmas

break and go, you know what? It's very possible.

Let's just go ahead and prepare our pursuers.

That Christmas is wild. Christmas gets crazy.

It does. We might have one big final Christmas

episode on the first week of December, and then

we sign off. We sign off, and then we'll see

what happens after that. That would be a fun

one. So Christmas, I've never thought about themed

podcasts. I guess we could have done one for

4th of July, like Let Freedom Ring. But a Christmas

-themed podcast where you and I are here sipping

our hot cocoa, and the intro music is both holly

and jolly. We could bring in a guest. Santa Claus?

Santa! Because if we're going to get him, we

got to work on that now. Yeah, his schedule backlog

is crazy. There are two distinct people in our

church that I guarantee you would be like, oh,

ho, ho, Merry Christmas. They like cosplay Santa

for an episode here. Yes, we could also do Christmas

in July. You know, it is July. We have to get

on that soon. Yeah, though I think we're actually

a little bit late on that one. Are we? Yeah,

we got several weeks left in July. Not when this

comes out. Okay, that's true facts. I forget

that it's Friday. Well, yeah, so much for Christmas

in July, but we could have had a St. Patrick's

Day episode. I mean, yeah, but we've got stuff

coming up. No, we don't need to look back. We

need to look forward. What do we have coming

up, Johnson? Well, we have fall. If we wanted

to have a beginning of fall episode. Pumpkin

spice podcast. I was just like that. Oh, a pumpkin

spice. I mean, it's pumpkin spice flavored everything

these days, so why not a pumpkin spice flavored

podcast? I don't even know content wise what

we would cover there, but it'd be good. We could

figure it out. And then you got like Reformation

Day, right? Like October 31st. Yeah. Oh, the

battle between Reformation Day and Halloween.

It's not a battle. So when I was at Cedarville,

Cedarville is this itty bitty little Christian

college in the cornfields of Ohio, right? And

we would regularly play Liberty, this massive,

like, you know, 40 billion students on campus

and off campus university. And that's where you

got your degree. Yes, and dude, we hated Liberty.

Like it was this massive rivalry from Cedarville

and every person I've gone. I've talked to who's

got a Liberty's been like, what's Cedarville?

I before I met you, I had heard the name and

that's it. So it's like one of those rivalries,

like we're once I take it super seriously and

the other one's like. Who are you? Who are you?

That's how I feel. Reformation day and Halloween

are like, listen, I mean, obviously Halloween

is going to win. I mean, Halloween is going to

win. Although maybe, maybe this Halloween, I'll

dress up as Martin Luther. Nothing would make

me happier than to see you dressed up and then

a hammer and nail in one hand and a sheet of

paper in the other hand and just walking around

and every door of the church. You're just nailing.

I think. I think Halloween is near. I think it's

a Saturday this year. Is it a Sunday? It's it.

Is it a Saturday or Friday? I think it's one

of those. Yeah, it might be a Saturday trunk

or treats the 28. It's a Saturday. It is a Saturday

man. It'd be a great opportunity for us to resurrect

our church Facebook or tech talk or something.

Just me. Speaking of Cedarville, they had every

year a student or two would tape the theses on

a bunch of random doors. I mean, that sounds

like the Christian college thing to do. I feel

like this is the thing where you learn something

as a young believer and you just go full force

into it. I remember having experiences like that

at Christian college, and it's like all of a

sudden you're just debating everybody about everything.

I just learned what the word Armenian is, and

now we're going to talk about it forever, and

I am the expert. Or like you and the rest of

the students in the class are like, we're very

theologically distinguished. We discovered this

really cool new theological truth, and the professor's

like, that's great. So did you know that the

whole church denounced that as a heresy in the

fourth century? Bible college was good times.

You and I, Sean, Reformation Day reminded me

of it. You and I were talking about church history.

That is an area that I don't have very much experience

in. What Christianity has looked like from first

century to now. And I think I'm not alone in

that. I feel like as a tradition, as a denomination,

we Baptists don't really... look further past

like billy graham sometimes just in terms of

like the contribution christianity existed before

billy graham uh just a little it started sadly

i mean like there's like that's like oh no and

that's when the that's when everything got evangelized

was billy graham but now don't get me wrong dude

did amazing stuff but i know there is some rich

history there's some ugly History. There's unfortunately

a lot of ugly history. Isn't that interesting

how some of the worst things in history, like

I think about the Crusades, right? Dude. Like

bore the name of Christ, but they just like pulled

up to the Holy Land and started killing people.

Just slaughtered people in the name of Jesus.

Right. Right, or like Charlemagne. Have you heard

about Charlemagne? I've heard about Charlemagne.

Yeah, the quote -unquote greatest evangelist

of all time. His technique was he would show

up to a pagan village and be like, hey, so you

have two options. You could be a Christian, or

we're going to paint this town red with your

blood. Yeah. And people are like, I find the

name of Christ is something worth confessing.

Yeah. What do we do with that? As 21st century

believers, the history books are there. And I

think like I've even talked to people who don't

believe in Jesus, who like one of their primary

arguments is look at the Christians, dude. Like

slavery was defended with passages from Titus

and Philemon. Unfortunately, we have a terrible

history of twisting God's word to what we wanted

to say to benefit our own personal desires, our

own personal crusades, whether you're talking

about the actual crusades or just things. I mean,

as humans, we're sinful. And we see that throughout

Scripture, or not throughout Scripture, well,

through Scripture as well, but throughout church

history of, man, of just people getting it wrong.

But for the longest time, the Bible was gatekept

by the church. Seriously, right? I mean, only

the priests, the monks, the bishops could even

have access to it. But then it, for some reason,

even got a copy. It was only written in Latin,

and no one would... Most people couldn't read

back then anyways, and they definitely couldn't

read Latin. And the guys that were like, hey,

we should put this in an accessible language.

They literally burned at the stake. Yes. Like

John Huss. He was one of the first reformers.

And his whole thing was translate the Bible into,

I think it was German. It wasn't English. And

literally, they burned him as a heretic. Yeah.

which is just crazy. Even if you look at the

architecture of some of those really old cathedrals,

there are loops in the pulpits where they would

chain the Bible down to the lectern so you couldn't

move it, which is crazy. What I hear you saying

is that in spite of saying that we're obeying

God and doing what he wants us to do, it's very

possible that because of the condition of our

hearts that we don't actually even follow through

or do what he's actually asking us to do. Yeah,

yeah, exactly. That sounds suspiciously like

one of our texts for today. Does it? Yes. Are

you sure? It's yours. Yeah, I know. I know. Come

on, Sean. I'm trying to set you up. I've done

this. I saw it coming. I saw this one coming.

I've done this twice now. And in both times,

you're like, what do we do? The funny thing is,

the first time was completely me just being not

knowing what you're doing the at all. And then

this is more of me like I'm going to have fun

with this. Yeah, well, thank you. You know what

that means? The third time it might go smoothly.

Might. I'll believe it when I see it. Exactly.

That's why I said might. But yeah, man, I'd love

to get into our passage today. So, you know,

we had an interesting week of, it was divided

up in some interesting ways, you know, lots of

different things to look at. We're chilling out

in Holy Week. Like, we are firmly, like, triumphal

entry. Jesus is in or around Jerusalem. Yeah,

and so I wanted to kind of hover over a really,

honestly, a tiny passage. I think it's like four

verses. Yeah. And so it was one of those days

where I remember, like, you know, I opened it

up, but it's going to be July 15th, and I opened

up July 15th, and then I look over the passage,

and I'm like, oh, dang. All right, that's it?

All right, well, I guess I'll read this, you

know? And then I go and read it, and so let me

just go ahead and read it, and then I'll kind

of... go with what happened to me, and then we'll

talk about it. So here it is, Matthew chapter

Matthew 21:28–32

21, verse 28 through 32. What do you think? A

man had two sons. He went to the first and said,

My son, go work in the vineyard today. He answered,

I don't want to. But later he changed his mind

and he went. Then the man went to the other and

said the same thing. I will, sir, he answered.

But he didn't go. Which of the two did his father's

will? They said the first. So now this is pretty

interesting. It goes into another. right after

that. But I just want to kind of hang right there

for a little bit. Yeah, yeah. But we'll just

stop with this one because, I mean, they kind

of have this same kind of idea to it. So here's

the funny thing that happened to me. Okay. With

this parable specifically, not the next one.

The next one I was good with. But I remember

I read this parable for my Pursuing Jesus devotion,

and literally my brain went, I've never read

this before in my life. I had no recollection

of this story whatsoever. Interesting. Now, for

some people, that may be the norm. Right? But

I mean, I've been reading Scripture for a long

time now. Yeah, it's been a minute. You know,

I've just, and especially the Gospels. That's

just something I'm pretty familiar with the New

Testament. I definitely don't have things memorized,

none of that kind of stuff. But I've read Scripture

a lot. And so when my brain, when I first read

this, and I was like, I don't recall this story

whatsoever, that intrigues me. Fair. Because

usually there's some kind of remembrance, recollection

of, oh, yeah, that thing. That did not happen

to me whatsoever. But it allows you the unique

experience of getting to come to Scripture with

fresh eyes. Yes, yes. So the funny thing is,

when I opened it, because I was reading it in

my physical Bible, right? And then for our podcast,

I used my laptop, and so I opened up my Bible

program, and the passage is highlighted like

crazy. Oh, man. So I was like, okay, definitely,

not only have I read, this before, but like have

made notes on this before and really, but two

weeks from now, you're going to like be scrolling

through an old hard drive and be like, oh yeah,

a sermon from Matthew 21, eight through 32. Yeah,

so post your child for don't do drugs. But anyways,

but here, but not only So at first, it stood

out to me that I didn't remember it. Right. But

then I'm like, okay, cool. This gives me, as

you said, an opportunity to really look at it.

And then I was like, oh, wow. This is actually

as simple of a parable that this is. Dude, this

is... I was like, oh, man, this hits home. Yeah.

It hits home hard. And I love when... I mean...

Jesus is the one that can do this, that he can

take something so simple, talking about two brothers

going to work for their dad and turn it into

this deeply convicting story. Right. Right. And

that's exactly what happens. And so basically

there's two sons, right? It says a man has two

sons. One of them, he goes and says, work in

the vineyard. And he's like, nah. I'm good. Not

going to do that. Right. I know. Right. First,

I mean, to even be like, I mean, if I know what

my dad would have done, if my dad was like, son,

you need to get up and go rake leaves. And I

was like, I'm good, dad. I'm going to play my

super Nintendo. The rest of that immediately

would have not gone well for me. Fair. Right.

So any, so right then I'm just like, Ooh, snap.

But We don't hear anything about the man doesn't

respond. All we see is that he answered that

he didn't want to and then immediately, but later

he changed his mind and he went. And then we

got another son. And this sounds like, you know,

this is, you know, the man goes to the other

one and does the same thing. And the son responds,

oh, yeah, absolutely. Yes, sir. I love how Jesus

even adds that. I will, sir. Yeah, he uses it

on a riff. And I think that's on purpose because

then he responds yes, but then he never does

anything. Right. So this is showing that there

are, in this illustration, there's two types

of people. right there's a there's there's the

people that respond with the most perfect answer

that the father wants to hear that they think

the father wants to hear right and so you've

got this one son says yes i will sir like there

is respect there there is language of of like

i'm going to listen to the words of my father

and he is saying the right things where the other

son Not only didn't say the right thing, but

was kind of disrespectful as well, right? It's

like, nah, I don't want to. But later he changed

his mind and he actually listened, right? And

then now... that we've kind of seen these two

people. Let's read the rest of it because it

really fills in the story of who, because we

can talk about who he's talking about, but listen

to what Jesus says. He gives his own interpretation

for his own parable. And so I like leaving that

after we kind of discuss it. And so he says,

Jesus said to them, truly I tell you, tax collectors

and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God

before you. You want to talk about confrontational.

Yeah. You want to talk about Jesus telling this

really amazing story and then no question about

the interpretation or anything. He is calling

them out. Yes. And so the first son is the tax

collectors and prostitutes. These are people

like, hey, I'm not listening to God's word. I'm

going to live my life. I'm going to earn as much

money as I can. I'm going to live a provocative

life. I'm going to live totally against how God

wants me to live. Yes. But then they meet Jesus.

They believe in Jesus and their life is changed

and they begin to follow the father. And then

verse 32, for John came to you in the way of

righteousness and you did not believe him. So

John was calling out the religious Jewish leaders.

Yes. The same guys that Jesus beefed with. Exactly.

And so we know that that's who he's talking about.

And so he says tax collectors and prostitutes

did believe him. So they repented. They were

baptized by John. But you, when you saw it, when

you saw this new teaching, didn't even change

your mind then. and believe in him. And so Jesus

is telling this story, and he's like, hey, you

know what? Y 'all say the right things. You have

the knowledge. I could probably ask you about

any minor prophet in the Old Testament. I could

ask you about any little thing, and unlike...

Pastor Sean over here, you're not going to forget

the story. You're going to know exactly about

all the little details. He's like, you're going

to know all of it. And Jewish tradition backs

that up. These guys, like a game they played

to pass the time was somebody would quote a part

of the Torah, the Old Testament law, and their

job was to, from memory, spit the page before

it, the one that it's on, and after it. Trained

and memorized. Yes. Like that is what these,

they know. They have knowledge. And so what Jesus

is trying to get them to see is it's one thing

to know the right thing. It's one thing to have

the correct answers in a way that you think that's

what God wants you to do, but it is something

completely different to actually do these things

that God wants you to do. Absolutely. And so

for our lives as well, there are... You know,

I think this was last week's podcast where we

talked about the Southern Christian culture.

This is where my mind went when I read this,

is that there are so many people in my culture.

And my area and the people that I am burdened

for, dude, they know the right answers. Because

so many people, they've grown up in church. They've

heard people preach. They did VBS every year.

Like, they know. from their head the right response.

But their lives and what they do doesn't reflect

Jesus. Well, I mean, look at the parable. I think

you're exactly right. Look at the parable. Both

sons have knowledge of the Father. This isn't

a question of, I don't know. No. I don't understand.

No, it's not. But only one son was honest. Yeah.

I said, oh, the call earlier. The honesty of

the first son is telling, though. That son actively

rejects the call of the father. But I think both

of them have rejection. Both of them do reject

the father. The first one's just honest about

it. And I think one of the difficulties that

you and I face doing ministry in like a Bible

Belt context is that there are many people who

are actively rejecting the Father but don't understand

that that's what they're doing. Isn't that so

scary though? Yeah. I mean like dead serious,

you know, that there are so many people because

our culture is so Christianized. And the phrase

that I'll hear a lot is like, oh, me and God,

we're good. I'll be honest, whenever I hear that

phrase, it worries me. I'm just going to be honest.

That phrase worries me. Because that's not how

I would ever describe my relationship, even though

technically I'm like, all right, yeah, I'm good

with Jesus. Those aren't the words that my heart

would choose to use. to describe my relationship

with him. And if it's words that you would use,

then you'd probably back it up with, yeah, me

and God are good. Like Jesus has covered me for

my sins. I have an active relationship with God.

Exactly. And so, but that is a phrase that I

hear a lot in the South. And maybe it's in other

places. This is just my lived experience that

I can talk about. For you are from the South.

Homebred, cornbread, baby. Says the toot from

Charlotte. That's in the South. Oh, man. Listen,

I have no room to talk and you know it. That's

why I'm doing it. What are we talking about?

I lost track now. I don't even know what we're

doing. The prostitutes and the tax collectors.

have a clear understanding of who they are, what

they've done, and where they stand before God.

And see that right there. Sorry to cut you off,

but that right there, understanding who you are.

Yeah, exactly. That is the basis of that relationship.

Yeah. I mean, like very simply, like if you think

you and God are good, to use your verbiage, and

you kind of have like... to back that up, you're

not seeing yourself clearly. Romans one, like

the very beginning of the book talks about how

like humankind is without excuse as it pertains

to understanding that there is a God and that

he does have like expectations of relationship

with us. But kind of that. I'm good with God

mindset is exactly what the second son does.

I will, sir. He professes obedience. I will,

sir. He acknowledges that God, that the father

is an authority over him, but the way he lives

his life does not display it. And like, I do

want to, I do want to like. very clearly state

here. You and I are not talking about works salvation

here. The conversation here is not... I think

if anything our church realizes from us over

the past month is that that is exactly what we

are not talking about. I don't know, man. Listen,

I spent so many years in the chains of a workspace

faith, just for my own story. I can be... I will

admit I'm hypersensitive to it. So would you

mind sharing with our Pursuing Jesus listeners

a little bit more about your story then? Yeah,

absolutely. So I did grow up in a Christian home,

and I believe that my parents fully, completely

understand the gospel and are walking with Jesus.

But particularly from a young age, I was exposed

to a lot of believers who placed far more emphasis

on the way that you looked. influencing the kind

of person that you are versus really anything

spiritual per se. They placed a lot of emphasis

on the external appearance, like, you know. Um,

of course you wouldn't know it now, but like,

you know, like you're for a dude, if you had

hair that touched your ears, you know, that,

that was in your heart, they're sitting in your

heart. Yep. If you know, you know, don't listen

to rock music because that's the appearance of

worldliness. And so like kind of with one side

of their mouth, they would proclaim Christ, but

the other, they would say, Jesus only wants one

certain kind of person and it's, and they look

like us. I even think there may have been some

ethnic ties there that solidified that for them.

And so when I became a believer at a young...

When I made a profession of faith at a young

age, although I don't think that was genuine

until I was in high school, I had this perspective

of a very angry, vindictive God who was ready

to just smite me at any time. And I carried that

through some... I carried that through different

contexts that did understand the true gospel,

and I thought I had it. But man, my perspective

of him got darker and darker and darker because

I kept making more and more mistakes. And so

if I'm supposed to be justified before God with

my works, if I'm supposed to be good enough for

him to accept me, look good enough, smile hard

enough, be clean cut enough, fit in well enough,

because that was another piece of it too that

was interesting about my context. It wasn't just

who you are, it's how you fit with the whole

that determined your righteousness before God

is the way that they acted. Eventually it just

drove me to this place where I'm like, if this

is all that the Christian life is, I don't want

it. Like genuinely, if God is just this angry

man with cosmic power to mock me every time I

do something wrong, and that is his core, his

heart, then how could any of what Jesus says

be true? Like you say you came to give life and

life abundantly, but this is hell. You say come

to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I

will give you rest. This doesn't feel like rest.

This feels like toil. You say my sheep hear my

voice. Why don't I hear you? And so I had a season

where I internally began to resent God directly

and where I was not pursuing him for a long time.

And then it took somebody presenting me the real

gospel where I recognized that the half -truth

in the lie that was tearing me apart was that

there is a consequence for sin. God is a just

God. God is a righteous God. And sin must be

punished. That's the half -truth, because Jesus,

knowing all of those things, knowing every single

mistake that I would make, stepped down from

eternity, and he came close. If I say anything

in a prayer on a Sunday morning, it's that. That's

near and dear to me, that God put his hands in

the dirt. He didn't remain far off lobbing insults

and trouble at us. Jesus took on flesh and lived

a life and had experiences like I do. So when

you were going through all this, would you...

Were you saved at the time? No, absolutely not.

That's why I was curious. I was curious if you

were saved and just had a bad foundation of theology

or if you were just absolutely lost. No, I was

absolutely lost because I had absorbed... I did

not believe that Jesus' work was good enough.

And that came out even after I was a believer

for several years because I believe I made a

genuine profession of faith in high school. It's

a lot of ground to cover up until high school,

but it was what it was. But even talking with

a man a couple of years after that who was discipling

me, I was really wrestling with just deep guilt.

And he's like, Jesus' blood covers that mistake

that you made, dude. And my response to him was,

wouldn't that be nice? I didn't believe it. And

so if that's the ideology that characterized

my spiritual state early on, I didn't have understanding

of the gospel until I was in high school. And

so when I hear or even when I'm saying something

that sounds like you have to be a certain kind

of person to be saved. You got alerts going off

in your brain. I get alerts going off in my brain

because that's a prison that, frankly, I still

had to rattle those bars sometimes because I

can sink back into that if I'm not careful. Yeah.

I appreciate you being honest, man, and sharing

with our listeners a little bit about your story.

Yeah. There's a lot there. What's been interesting

to me is that often the Lord brings people into

my life that are in similar cages. Well, and

I think this is why testimonies are so powerful,

right? And I think, I mean, it's biblical. The

church, you know, the church is supposed to worship,

is supposed to preach, and is supposed to share

testimonies. It's a part of what we are to do.

And when we share our story, with other people,

you know, we never know the context that people

are dealing with, because especially what you're

talking about is a mental battle a lot of times

that you're dealing with. And so a lot of those

are not known. You know, people might look like

they're good on the outside, but internally they

might be struggling with some of these things,

and you never know just by sharing your story

and how the Lord has brought you through these

things and helping you to see Him in the true

colors that He is, how it's helping other people.

Genuinely. The book of Revelation says that we

as believers overcome by the blood of the Lamb

and the word of our testimony. That kind of victory

that we find in Jesus is through his power and

blood. He's made a way and he's empowered us.

And through our honesty. It goes back to the

parable, dude. We see ourselves as God sees us.

And then we can move forward with his power and

his blessing. We walk into the kingdom of God

alongside the tax collectors and the prostitutes

because we're on level playing field. Well, dog,

this has been fun. I wasn't anticipating getting

to share a little bit of my story, and there

are so many details and stuff that I could fill

in in Technicolor that we kind of just don't

really have time for. That may be something that

we do at a later time. Just kind of share more

of our stories. I've been here for nine years.

I've been at the church nine years, and I've

shared my story so many times with the students.

Yeah. And there are a handful of the parents

that have gone on trips and they've got to hear

me and different things are part of our ministry.

But overall, the church has gotten pieces when

I've preached, but I don't know how much of the

full story they have. And so me dropping one

-liners like poster child for don't do drugs.

There might be someone who's like, wait a second,

hold on. Who's our pastor? It's not who our pastor

is. It's who our pastor was. Yeah. And that's

one of my favorite things to do as a pastor is

be like, hey, man, tell me your story. Because

the thing that I have learned just by being curious

about people. And curiosity is such a good thing

because it allows you to get to know people on

a different level. And then just because you

look at somebody and you can make quick judgments,

but then all you got to do is say, tell me your

story, and all of a sudden you learn who the

person really is. Correct. And when we see people

that way, we embrace Jesus' model of genuine

community. Such good stuff, man. Such good stuff.

Well, listen, genuine community of listeners,

flawless transition. It's been great getting

to discuss these things with you guys. Let us

know if that's something that you'd be interested

in, getting to hear Sean and I's kind of testimonies

in a bit of a more long -form format. And listen,

I mean, we're open. We're open to this. We sit

in this room with these mics and headphones and

our Bibles open and laptops open. For you, our

listeners. That's what we're here for. So if

there's something that we can cover, something

that we can talk about to help your relationship

with Jesus, we absolutely want to hear about

that. So whether it's our stories, whether it's

something else, we use the format of going through

the Pursuing Jesus devotion, and that is our

default. We will continue to do that. But if

there's ever anything else that we need to cover

to help you guys out, we're here to do that.

Absolutely. Well, it's been fun. I'm Ben Smith.

I am Sean Green. And we will see you next time.

Pursuing Jesus is a ministry of Memorial Baptist

Church in Norway, North Carolina. To learn more

about our church, please visit memorial4norwood

.com. Victory in Jesus, my Savior. forever. He

sought me and he bought me with his redeeming

flood. Wait, what? Blood? You said, what did

you say? Is it flood or blood? He bought us with

his blood. Goodbye.