The Love That Makes Us One

If I had a nickel for every time that you were

on your phone when I tried to start the podcast,

I'd have like two nickels. You know, it's not

a lot, but it's weird this happened twice. What

is that from? It's from Phineas and Ferb. No,

it's not. Yes, it's Doofenshmirtz, isn't it?

Okay, it's definitely from something else as

well. It's not, dude. I'm telling you, that's

where it came from. Really? That's where I know

that quote from? Yeah, Doofenshmirtz is like,

if I had a nickel for every time this thing happened,

I'd have two nickels, which is not a lot, but

you know. At least it's weird that it happened

twice. I swear it's from something else as well.

Dude. I need to get back on my phone and Google

this. No, stop it. Stop it. It's the only place

I've heard it and I refuse to. As a child of

the 2000s, I claim Phineas and Ferb is probably.

Honestly, I think that show has had more of an

impact on me and my sense of humor than many

other things. Well, there's 104 days of summer

vacation. School comes along just to end it.

So, you know, I don't know the rest. The annual

problem for our generation is finding a good

way. To spend it. Like? Maybe, and I'm not going

to do that. I could, though. I know you could.

I'm curious as how many of you pursuing Jesus

pandas could, I actually know what we're talking

about here. If you guys have watched Phineas

and Ferb, I feel like that may be not the demographic

that listens to our podcast. I don't know, man.

I mean, so Phineas and Ferb, that's, it definitely,

I mean, it hits my age demographic. You watched

Phineas and Ferb? I know, yeah. So with kids.

When did it come out? Like late 2000s, early

2010s. I mean, I am fully aware of his existence

and I feel like I was fully aware before I had

kids. Yeah. Listen, it was great. To me, that

and like Suite Life of Zack and Cody was the

peak of Disney shows. See, now that is outside

of my realm of knowledge. I have watched zero

Suite Life of Zack and Cody. Yeah. You know,

fun fact about that show, the main love interest's

name is Maddie. And as a kid, I always had a

crush on her. And so then I married a lady named

Maddie, who was even better than the Maddie from

Suite Life of Zack and Cody. I wonder if therapist

Maddie has something to think about that. I'm

sure she does. We've talked about it before.

Hey, so I have a question for you. I'm going

to get us back. I'm going to get us on topic

biblically just a little bit. Okay. So first,

let me set this up. So do you believe... When

we die and go to heaven, we get a glorified body.

Eventually. Yes. Eventually, yes. Yes. So we're

going to get a glorified body. And do you think

that means that if someone was in an accident

and they were in a wheelchair, their glorified

body will be healed? I think that our glorified

bodies will exist in a different way than our

current bodies do. I do think that wholeness

is probably a theme that the Lord will instill

in creating our new bodies. I think if somebody

was in a wheelchair, they'll probably not be

in a wheelchair. I think if somebody was blind,

they'll probably not be blind. So here's my question.

Will there be bald people in heaven? You know,

Sean, I don't know. I don't know. There's hope

for all of us, I guess. But I think that our

glorified bodies will reflect us as true as possible.

So Dwayne the Rock Johnson with his amazing bald

head, maybe he will still be bald if he's a believer

of Jesus? Sure. But what if he wants hair? He

could also have hair. I don't know. I think that's

up to the Lord. Because I've seen... Yeah, we

had no say in how we were created the first time.

Why would that be different in the second time?

Okay, that's what I'm saying. Because I've seen

him in the trailer for the live -action Moana,

and the dude does not look right with hair. No,

he does not. Dwayne the Rock Johnson is intended

to be bald. I mean, it's one of the reasons I

don't think I want to see the movie, because

it's just weird. I'm done with the remakes, dude.

I can't do it. I was like, oh, yay, the remaking

Moana. I can't wait to be forced to watch this

with my nephews and nieces. Not watching it.

But the question remains. Because baldness is

a condition that people lose their hair. So are

they going to be healed of this condition? And

then what if they don't want to be? I think that

the Lord will design each person the way that

they... My vote is that it will be an embodiment

of their truest self, that their appearance will

perfectly reflect how God made them to be. And

so if that happens to include baldness, I think

that that may include baldness. I also think

that... I think the Lord was supposed to make

me 6 '2". Dude, your personality is not 6 '2".

No, it's not. Respectfully, said in love, neither

of us were meant to be 6 '2". I don't think that's

in either of our futures. I tell myself that

it was the amount of cigarettes I smoked at 13

years old that stunned my growth. You're not

the first person to tell me that. Oh, man. That's

wild. I'm desperately looking for a way to ground

this in our text for today. Hey, man, listen,

you started one way. I brought you to the scripture.

I brought you halfway there. And now we're just

living on a prayer. You didn't. You know, God

does care for bald people though. Leviticus 13

says that a man who has lost his hair and is

bald is still ceremonially clean. Hold on. That's

not the verse I was thinking of. You're thinking

of the passage. I'm thinking of the she bears.

You're thinking of the passage from second Kings

where a group of armed men, they describe them

as armed, some small boys. But if you look at

the Greek or if you look at the Hebrew, it's

like, like young men, like outside of the city.

Yes. Are teasing. Was it? is it Ezekiel? Um,

or one of the, Elisha, Elisha, Elisha. And, uh,

I mean like they're threatening the dude. And

so he, he, They're like, hey, Baldy, go away.

We're going to light you up. And he calls out

two she -bears. And the Lord answers. Yes, he

does. And the Lord brings the she -bears. Man,

if that is not a cruel way to go, I don't know

what is. Also, I don't think I've ever, outside

of this passage, referred to a female bear as

a she -bear. Yeah. I mean, the Bible refers to

it as a she -bear. Oh, I'm just, yes. Bear is

bear. You see one in the wild, you say, hey,

bear. Yep. I'm not trying to. identify the gender

of the bear. Did you just assume that bear's

gender? How modern of us. I know there's the

word bruin, B -R -U -I -N. I think it means a

male bear. Is that German? No, it's... You tried

to get us back in the text. I sure did. Now we're

talking about bears. But we were talking about

the Bible. We're talking about bald people. Hey,

so we should talk about John 17. I think now

is the perfect time for us to pivot to John 17.

If any of you are still with us, we're so glad

you're here. I'm so thankful for our pandas because

the introductions that they have to sit through.

The introductions that they get to sit through.

It's a privilege. They enjoy this content. Yes,

they do. And all the more on our Patreon, you

know? Yeah, if you didn't know about it, start

giving us some money. We'll figure it out. We

don't have a Patreon. But for $19 .99 a month,

we will. I don't like the way that splits out.

How much do I get of that? Like $9 .97 a month?

I don't know. I just feel like everything online

has to be ended 99 or anything in the store.

Well, that's it. That's marketing that you'll

pay. You will agree like psychologically. They

figured out however long ago that you'll pay

1799, but you won't pay 1800 for something. Yeah,

it's so much more right. You are the reason that

John 17 is we're going to look today. Sean and

I were looking at the passages to look at through.

This is one from August 28th. This is a very

interesting one. We're still in that kind of

pre, right before Jesus' crucifixion in the Holy

Week. The end discourse kind of, yeah. We've

been camped out in the book of John for a while

because I feel like John gives us the most detailed

account kind of of... Well, it makes sense too

because it is so different from the other ones

and there's things recorded that are not recorded

in the other ones. And so, yeah, we're here for

a while. Yep. And I think that this discourse

in particular fits really well with the overall

theme of John. John writes, I've written these

things so that you may know that Christ is the

Son of God. His whole point is Jesus is God's

Son. genuinely like all of John 17 is stuff that

only God's son could say. Only a person with

the authority of God himself in human form could

say any of the things that Jesus is asking in

the father to prayer. So Sean, do you want to,

you want to go ahead and read through John 17,

20 through 26, and then we'll jump in here. Sure.

I pray not only for these, but also for those

who believe in me through their word. May they

all be one as you father are in me and I am in

you. May they also be in us so that the world

may believe you sent me. I have given them glory

you have given me so that they may be one as

we are one. I am in them and you are in me so

that they may be made completely one that the

world may know you have sent me and have loved

them as you have loved me. Father, I want those

who have given me to be to be with me where I

am, so that they will see my glory, which you

have given me because you loved me before the

world's foundation. Righteous Father, the world

has not known you. However, I have known you,

and they have known that you sent me. I made

your name known to them and will continue to

make it known, so that the love you have loved

me with may be in them, and I may be in them.

So, dude, that verse lends itself to being a

bit of a tongue twister, just the way with Jesus

phrases it all. But what stands out to you in

reading this, Sean? So, y 'all know me. I'm all

about personal application, and I'm all about

when you read Scripture, putting yourself in

there. But honestly, I get overwhelmed with this.

I'm overwhelmed because I see myself, and I see

myself that Jesus is on this earth. In this moment.

And he's praying for me. Isn't that insane? Oh

my gosh. Like that. It's just, you know, to see

like, once again, I mean, realizing where we

are in the moment. Yes. Jesus is like 72 hours

from hanging on the cross. And his prayer at

this moment is for future believers. Yeah. Like

incredible. And like he starts like, I mean,

chapter 17, you know, people call it like the

high priestly prayer. Like he starts by praying

to the father and just kind of landing there.

And then he prays for his disciples. And then

he's like, I don't ask just only for my disciples,

but the people that will believe because of what

my disciples said. Yeah. You see a little picture

of Jesus, God's plan for the nations, for everyone.

Way back then, that blessing over Abraham, that

through Abraham's offspring, who is Jesus, all

the world will be blessed. Somehow we're caught

up in that promise and prosperity. Jesus has

a heart for us. He's thinking of the people he's

going to the cross for. One of the things I just

thought about, I don't know. I'm just going to

say it out loud because it just came to my mind.

We're in such an interconnected world today.

Fair. We're connected by the internet. We could

literally talk to someone face -to -face through

a screen on the other side of the planet. In

a different time zone. It's just insane the way

that we are so connected. As big as our world

is, it gets smaller to us because of how interconnected

we are. However, I just had this thought of the

people that... the disciples and the people that

Jesus are with, they don't realize how huge the

world truly is. No. But Jesus does. Yeah. And

so even as he's with all of them, they don't

realize what he's saying. But even Jesus has

the concept of like, I am here for the world,

and he understands what that means. What I'm

thinking of the billions of faces flashing across

his thoughts and his minds at the moment. Ben

and Sean sitting in a room in North Carolina.

The underground church huddled in somebody's

house in China. The Middle Eastern Christian

praying to Jesus outside of the mosque. The monk

in the 1700s in a monastery. All of these people

with so many different backgrounds and so many

different stories and so many different degrees

of faith and understanding of who God is. We

are all those who would believe because of the

word of the disciples. You know what's also insane

to me as I parse through this passage? The first

thing that Jesus prays for is unity. between

believers. Verse 21, I ask not for these only,

but also for those who will believe in me through

their, the disciples' word, that they may all

be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I

in you, that they may also be in us, so that

the world may believe that you have sent me.

Jesus is asking the Lord that he foster within

believers the unity that he has with the Father.

Like the oneness that they share being the thing

that defines believers. Here's the scary part

to me. The reason Jesus gives for this unity

is our witness. So that the world may believe

that you have sent me. Jesus is asking, Lord,

will you sow such unity in the believers to come

that the unbelieving world looks at them and

goes, huh? At the foot of the cross is the only

place that we see the kind of unity and diversity

gathered in one place in peace. Because of the

gospel, the rich and the poor are the same in

the eyes of God and equally valued to the kingdom.

Because of the gospel, people of any ethnicity

from any time in history are equally valuable

and equally loved in the eyes of God. people

with different degrees of ability, whether they're

physically able to walk on their own or whether

they have a wheelchair. That unity that we're

called to have is the primary witness to an unbelieving

world. This was a conviction for me, dude. So

your personal conviction that you're talking

about, so verse 21, are you talking about the

unity that you feel with other believers, with

other churches? Go into that a little more. Yeah,

so what I mean is, so the question that came

up for me was, how do I view other Christians?

I think like with the, and this is not a blame

game. This is just a factor that I've leaned

into. As I underwent, like particularly my college

degree for ministry. Yeah. We got super -duper

focused on theological stuff, as you should.

You're getting prepared to step into ministry.

You need to be able to understand the Bible.

Cedarville taught from a systematic theology

standpoint, which just means you pick an issue,

you talk about it from a perspective of Scripture,

rather than what they would call biblical theology,

which means you're using the canon of Scripture

consecutively. So that's not the point of our

conversation today. But one of the things that

they did... was they would be like, hey, this

is what we believe. This is what other branches

of Christianity believe. And this is why they're

wrong. Okay. And I understand from like a standardization

perspective, like a let's make sure all of our

graduates emerge from Cedarville looking theologically

pretty much the same. Right. But I inherited

that and I sort of like. it's super easy to become

antagonistic to other believers. Sometimes even

I think more so than the world around us. Like

theological differences that are distinct enough

to worship in separate places, but that are not

theologically distinct enough to call them like

a heretic or to say you don't believe the real

gospel. I feel like those can divide us worse

sometimes. And so a couple of people came to

mind that I have some theological differences

in, that almost a resentment kind of, like the

Spirit showed me that I have a little bit of

resentment towards those people. That was something

I had to repent from as I came to this text.

Like, Lord, I am actively working against the

unity that you have sent us. And Trinitarian

theology -wise, like... One of the unifying factors

of the father and son is the spirit. Yes. Like

from a God three persons perspective. And I've

got a couple of other things to say about the

Trinity. Jesus has a lot of Trinitarian things

in this passage. But if me and the people I disagree

with theologically are both in Christ, regardless

of our... like what I would call like our tertiary

views, like the third tier that are outside of

the gospel truths, like I should treat those

brothers and sisters with love. And there are

going to be areas that they excel in in their

faith that I struggle in. There are going to

be areas that I excel in faith that they struggle

in. I've got this sneaky suspicion that when

we get to heaven, we'll realize that every denomination

has a thing that they knocked out of the park

and a thing that Jesus will go, you guys got

this one wrong. And I think that's going to be

as equally true of Baptists as it is going to

be of Episcopals, as it is going to be of Methodists,

of Presbyterians, of non -denominational or whoever.

Yeah, I agree. And that's the thing. To be clear,

You know, because the way you described it is

you said, you know, as my brothers in Christ.

And so meaning there is a foundation there. Oh,

100%. There's a foundation of things that we

have to agree on. And even one of the things

you referenced, I think the Trinity. If we're

going to be true brothers and sisters in Jesus,

we cannot deny the Trinity. We cannot deny...

Jesus as the Son of God, not created, but being

with the Father. I mean, there's certain things,

and these are what we call those primary issues,

right? Yeah, 100%. And so, yeah, we absolutely

need to be agreeing on primary issues. Those

are where we stand firm. Those are where we absolutely

debate somebody and be like, hey, you think Jesus

was created? Okay, now we got to stop because

you don't believe the same God that I believe.

No, and... But think about it, though. I think

a lot of those truths that we do fight for, like

hills that we do die on, are ones that threaten

the gospel. Exactly. Exactly. But still, sometimes

we put too much focus on these other things that

are not as important, way not as important, and

we let them divide us when they shouldn't. Yeah.

And I think there's a place for... separation

theologically sometimes. No, I agree. Like, dude,

Paul and Barnabas had a mad beef about John Mark,

and so they split up. Deuces. Deuces. Later,

Scooter. God honored both of their ministries.

Yes. And it was for peace that they did it. I

think there's a place for that. No, there is.

And some people are like, man, there should just

be one worldwide church and all this. And like,

listen, we are going to interpret this book differently.

Yes. And so, absolutely, I think that... denominations

have their place. And even just from a practical

perspective of how personalities are different,

and that means how people relate to God are different.

And so, yeah, I think that there can be unity

among the church, even with these differences.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because at the end...

Like when we're united to our father, spoiler

alert, this is where Jesus goes in the text.

Like when we're united again and we can see Christ

face to face, we will be all one body. Yeah.

The Bride of Christ does not have like different

seating sections. You know, like we're all in

the same boat. Section 202 with the Baptist go

over here. They're in the back row. That's why

I said 202. That sounds like the upper deck,

you know? Oh, man. Oh, that's right. That's good.

That's good. Oh, man. That was a joke for anybody

who thought I was being serious there. I just,

anyways. The only ones that are mad are the ones

that sit in the back row. Oh! Hey! Oh, man, I

hope you don't have a face in mind. So here's

one other thing that really stood out to me from

this text. I've read this before, and every time

I come over this, it's hard for me to kind of

fathom, and I think that's the point. Verse 25,

I've got it. O righteous Father, even though

the world does not know you, I know you, and

these know you. And these know that you have

sent me. Jesus is talking about like the believers

to come. 26, I made known to them your name and

I will continue to make it known that the love

with which you loved me may be in them and I

in them. Okay, pause button. Jesus is praying

to the Father that the love that they have shared

from before the foundation of the world, chapter

24, be the love that he has for us. We're invited

to the Trinitarian pre -time, pre -matter love

that the Father and the Son share. If you've

ever felt unloved, by your family if you've ever

felt alone and like without a friend in the whole

wide world like you have it recorded in the truths

of scripture that literally the god -sized love

a matter of fact his embodied like his main characteristic

first john says that god is love like sacrificial

love the sacrificial love that the father has

for the son that the son has for the father that

is shared and communicated through the power

of the holy spirit is directed at you yeah like

like you christian you person listening on the

like on your commute to work and and that is

an incredibly encouraging truth i mean is it

any wonder why when we look at people in our

world the amount of people that struggle with

loneliness the amount of people that feel like

no one cares about them i mean talk about this

is spiritual warfare Because when you see something

like this and see how we are loved by the Father,

we have community within the church, all of these

things that we are discussing, and yet people

struggle with this, that's spiritual warfare.

It is. I think one of Satan's greatest tactics

is to make us feel like we're alone. Yes. And

he does that in a myriad of ways. I believe firmly

that every generation has had its own unique...

weapons of loneliness, you know, like Satan uses

different tactics for us. I think a lot of those

are digital. Some of those are cultural, but

that spiritual battle is something that we can

fight with truths like this though. Like that,

that, that at some of his last moments, Jesus

thought it was important enough to address with

the father that you share in the love that he

and the father share. Like it's, it's extraordinary.

Yeah. And you know, and I don't, I don't want

to feel like I'm harping on, you know, I want

to go off what you said with the digital comment.

Because a good resource that we have these days

is that if you're not feeling well, or if you're

away, that you can be able to watch your church

service online. Where I think the issue has come

is where we look at this as replacement mentality,

and we think that that is a replacement, that

I can be a part of a church from a digital platform

solely. I've got issues with that. I do too.

And there are always going to be exceptions,

right? Like the person who's homebound, the person

who can't come. Like I said, there are sickness

and different reasons. If that is the only way

that you are able to be a part of the church,

it has its place. But I think too many people

use it as an excuse. Well, of course. But Sean,

the differentiator between I... consume this

at home and i attend and participate is still

love yeah like i like really and truly like like

you can love your church from afar sure yeah

but like there is also like a degree to love

where it atrophies without action it atrophies

without expression um it's the kind of thing

i could tell maddie i love her all that i want

but if i refuse to do the dishes you know like

like do i really do i really And I think that

love is something that we can choose to step

into or choose not to. As Christians, when we're

unified in the Spirit, one of the fruits of that

is love. Love that we have for one another. Love

in laying down our preferences. Love in choosing

to speak grace and kindness to the people around

us rather than just coming at them for our theological

differences. But I think that's how... And a

misunderstanding of love can lead to a misunderstanding

of what this looks like. Because an argument

can be made really from a 21st century perspective.

And I've heard this everywhere. We're like, well,

if you love me, you would let me do what I want.

If you love me, you would want me to be happy.

God does love us. God loves us as much as he

loved Jesus. Like Christ has specifically asked

for this and this is God's will. God and Christ

have the same will. Jesus even says that anything

coming from him comes from the father, you know,

but he, he doesn't, and he does love us as we

are, but his goal is to form us into Christ's

likeness. And so like that love that Jesus has

for us and that the father grows in us through

the spirit. When we express that in the church,

sometimes love looks like being honest to someone

else about their sin. Sometimes love looks like

loving confrontation. Jesus even instructs in

the Luke passage on forgiveness, I think it's

Luke 13, that when you forgive somebody, you

should also go to them and tell them that they've

wronged you. Jesus absolutely loves us, but he

also loves us enough to change us and shape us.

Absolutely. To restore us to what we were created

to be. And maybe even, to call back to that glorified

body baldness comment of yours, maybe even to

restore us to something greater than what we

were intended to be. 6 -2. Thank you, Sean. You're

welcome. I'm here for the deep theological discussions.

Including your desire for a greater height. We're

moving on. Oh, man. One other thing, and this

is like, related to our text today, but I just

thought it was super interesting. Have you ever

tried to teach about the Trinity? We talked about

triune theology earlier. Yes, I teach students.

This is a question that comes up a lot. And you

know how every single analogy that you give breaks

down? I hate them, yes. I came across one that

was tremendously compelling to me. I am cautiously

listening to what you have to say. I don't think

it's perfect. But it is darn near the closest

one I've seen to the concept we're trying to

portray. If you talk about an egg, I'm going

to flip this table. You have no idea how much

I would want to start talking about an egg right

now. Keep going with your thoughts. Yes. So the

analogy that I have heard that almost stands

up to like the theology of the Trinity in my

mind is the analogy of human speech. Have you

heard this one before? I have not. Now I'm curious.

So here's how the analogy works. The speaker

is the father. He's the originator of the thought

and the speech. Okay. Okay. The word is the son.

Now this is John 1, classic John 1. Like Jesus

is the word. The word became flesh and built

along us. He's the expression of the speaker's

mind. And Jesus mirrors that as a logos. Think

about it like Colossians 1. He is the image of

the invisible God. And then the breath that propels

the speech is the spirit, the ruach. Even the

word in scripture for spirit is also the word

for wind or breath. It's the unseen power required

to carry the sound. Each part is distinct, but

not separate. The voice, the word, and the breath

are three completely different components, but

you cannot have one without the others during

speech. But there is also simultaneous unity.

They occur at the exact same time to form a single

act of communication, just like the three co

-equal persons of the Trinity exist together

eternally. Like I said, it's not perfect, but

it is very close to the theological truth that

encapsulates the Trinity. It's the best one I've

heard. It's kind of abstract. Well, of course

it is. The Trinity itself is an abstract concept,

Sean. So it's like I'm having to digest this.

Yes. And I was really having to concentrate as

you were speaking because it's interesting. It's

very interesting. It's a very interesting comparison.

I like it more than I thought I would like it.

Yes, because anytime someone's like, I have the

perfect analogy for the Trinity, it's like, no,

that's modalism. Yes. No, that's this. Oh, no,

that's that. Because it falls apart. And unfortunately,

because this is such a core truth to what we

believe, we kind of have to get this right. You

know, I went and grabbed a book that I didn't

buy it for the podcast, but I read this in college

that was really, really compelling to me. And

I just wanted to share this little quote with

you as we kind of land the plane on this episode.

So there was a young Scottish man in the 1100s

named St. Richard of the Abbey of St. Victor.

And he argued this regarding the Trinity, like

why it's important that God be three persons

that are distinct but co -equal at the same time.

Richard argued that if God were just one person,

he could not be intrinsically loving, since for

all of eternity before creation, he would have

had nobody to love. If there were two persons

of the Trinity, he went on, God might be loving

but in an excluding, ungenerous way. After all,

when two persons love each other, they can be

so infatuated with each other that they simply

ignore everyone else. And a God like that would

be very far from good news. But when the love

between two persons is happy, healthy, and secure,

they rejoice to share it. Just so it is with

God, says Richard of St. Victor. Being perfectly

loving from all eternity, the Father and Son

have delighted to share their love and joy with

and through the Spirit. It is not then that God

becomes sharing. Being triune, God is a sharing

God, a God who loves to include. Indeed, that

is why God will go on to create. For his love

is not for keeping, but for spreading. In God's

very nature is the notion that we would be invited

into the love that the Trinity shares. Wow. I

like that, man. Yeah. It was a very interesting

quote from a very, very old monk. It's good stuff.

Yeah. Well, dude, this has been fun. I feel like

we blew through this episode. I like... Blew.

Breath. That's what I'm saying. I'm trying to

get something. I'm trying. I'm trying. You're

succeeding, Sean. Yay! I affirm. Oh my goodness.

Too much coffee. Once again, too much coffee.

Thank you guys for listening. I'm going to land

this plane before Sean says anything else. What

do we want? When do we want them? Now! We'll

see you guys next week. Bye! pursuing Jesus is

a ministry of Memorial Baptist Church in Norwood,

North Carolina. To learn more about our church,

please visit memorial4norwood .com.