Beyond The Message: Is Jesus Talking About the End Times?

Welcome to Beyond the Message, a midweek space where we continue the conversation from Sunday's sermon, unpacking context, exploring your questions, and growing as we listen, learn, and follow Jesus together.

Welcome to this week's Beyond the Message podcast.

Uh last week uh you missed us.

We were away because we had a life care Sunday.

But this week we're back with a bang, and we got two questions to talk about with Pastor Caleb who preached on Sunday.

Come on.

And Caleb took on a long passage of scripture that spanned two chapters, and we're going to talk about all of that.

And along the way, we're going to touch on topics like is this passage that we talked about?

Is it about the end times?

Is it not?

And we're also going to talk about the idea of persistent repetitive prayer and whether that bores God or like offends God in any way, which is an important question as well.

So looking forward to getting into all of that with you, Caleb.

Thanks for joining us today.

Thanks for having me back.

On Sunday, Caleb spoke about two major sections from Luke's Gospel.

This was the first one was from chapter 17, and that was titled in my Bible, The Coming of the Kingdom of God, and there was a lot of verses there.

And then it moved into the start of chapter 18, which is this parable of the persistent widow.

And what really struck me about what you did on Sunday, Caleb, was this connection between the two.

That kind of in light of the coming of the kingdom of God, which we don't know when will be, this call to persistent prayer in that context, uh, and I'd never noticed that.

And then the final verse of um the section you covered was Jesus asking this question.

So when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

And it's like, wow, what a question to leave your audience with.

So I really loved how you brought out that connection between the two because you know, it's we've talked about on this podcast is sometimes we're taking on sections in isolation because of time.

Sometimes we're going for the fuller narrative, and that's the mode that you went down.

Um I guess since Sunday, any any thoughts about that or anything you want to kind of say before we dive into these listener questions?

That's great.

Yeah, well articulated and uh remembered.

So thank you, Aiden.

Um yeah, the it really did stand out to me, this connection point with the the language, that conjunction then.

I was hoping that I could delineate the two and kind of go, oh, I'll focus here and that'll be enough.

But the two felt like they really flowed together for me, and so hence why I I tackled them together.

Yeah.

And I think uh to be really uh like clear, the that idea of the kingdom of God is coming, Jesus is is clear in that fact that he states the kingdom is in our midst, and we as people who have read beyond and who have you know seen the spoilers of the the end of the gospel know that Jesus uh talks about his return after his you know ascension.

And so uh there's this I guess what I was hoping to be quite clear about is there is this line of the kingdom is in our midst, and then Jesus will one day return rather than end times language uh is the same as Jesus' return, you know.

So trying to yeah, be clear about that.

Yeah, yeah, it's like that the the king the coming of the kingdom of God is like a present tense thing, like it's coming, it's like continuous present tense, like it's here and it's still coming and it's still fully.

It's not like we're waiting for one day when the kingdom of God comes in just in one go, as though it was never here.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh already here.

Yes.

And that's kind of what we're going to go on to talk about because this passage, particularly the uh Luke chapter 17 from verse 20 to uh 37 would be familiar to a lot of people and often associated with end times, um, particularly some of the verses and particular end times theologies.

Luke 17 · chapter mention

Uh so the first question that we had uh was essentially asking the question Is Jesus talking about the end times or is he not?

Can we give a simple answer to that?

Let's uh um dive into that question for a little bit.

Yeah, what a way to start you.

Is it about the end times or is it not?

What a way to start your your weekend.

That's not what they said, by the way.

That was not their question, but that's kind of I think a helpful way of us kind of going into it.

No, that's good.

Yeah, and you know, whenever you're listening to this, you know, uh that's uh hopefully something fun to chew over.

Yeah.

Uh but yeah, I guess we gotta also start to poke at and think about what is end times theology, what is that sort of language of uh, you know, and for most people uh it would be common to understand that it's this idea of uh, you know, this rapture mentality that one day we'll all get taken up, which is some of the language that kind of gets used in the passage where um one is laying in bed and then the other, or two people are laying in bed, one will be taken up and the other will be left, or grinding grain, one will be taken and the other will be left, you know.

So there is this immediate imagery that we are drawn to, and you know, we we can't get around it.

And so uh I think disclaimer my focus of our, or and interesting to use the word focus, my my push in uh the message uh was to talk about how Jesus is shifting our focus as opposed to what we expect the kingdom of God was to look like.

And so a part of that is that uh end time language, and uh again that's where I come back to the idea Jesus will return one day, and but that is not the end of time, that is the beginning of eternity with him, and I think that's a really clear distinction that needs to be made in that space.

And so to go back to your question, is this about end times?

Well, it's a contrast between the two, I think is a key language, right?

A contrast between the kingdom of God is here and now, understanding that Jesus is speaking to a people in a place at a specific time, and really needing to understand that, as well as being able to go, yes, there are the realities of Jesus will die, he will ascend and rise again, and he will return to come back.

And so this end time language, I I I I get the the wrestle with that, and there is some real complexity with that, uh, but it's not always the most helpful in that space as well, is probably what I would argue.

Yeah, maybe what if we were to say, is Jesus talking about his second coming?

Is that more clear?

Yeah, he takes away that idea of it's the end of the world and dah dah dah dah, yeah, yeah.

Great.

Is is he talking about his second coming?

Yes, and I think there is no doubt that that is what he's referring to, particularly in that aspect of uh his this perspective shift of you know, taking people away from this God who will come and bring about a mighty army who will overthrow, and that will bring about the kingdom in their land, but actually instead this idea of his second coming, is he addressing that to a certain extent?

Yes, because that's part of that perspective shift, I would argue, of you know, and we'll get into it with the conversation of the persistent widow.

That's what he's saying is the kingdom is in your midst, and the return of Jesus is coming, these two are you know conjoined together.

So, how are you readying yourself?

How are you prepared?

Because you're not going to be able to go inside and get your things, you're not gonna be able to return from the field.

So, are you ready at any given moment for the fact that Jesus could return?

And so, two very important things in that space.

So, yeah, that's why I use the language of contrast to to address that.

Yeah, so that contrast that you're talking about or or that tension it's some theologians would call this the now but not yet theology.

So, in terms of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of God is here now.

Uh Jesus is saying the kingdom of God is among you or within you, um, it's already here.

So, in one sense it's now, but then there's this other not yet part, which is we don't see the kingdom in all of its fullness now.

Correct.

Uh Jesus will come again and bring the kingdom in its fullness.

So is the kingdom of God here?

Yes, but it's not in all of its fullness.

Yeah, and I think that's why we have this tension of kind of is it about end times?

Is it about Jesus' second coming?

Is the kingdom of God, what is the kingdom of God?

Because Jesus says it's not something you can point to, or I loved how you said it's not uh a war or a political coup or an event that you could point to and say it's over here, yeah, it just happened.

Yeah, it's actually something that's among you and within you, but ultimately something that will be realized in all its fullness when Jesus does return.

But as you highlighted, what this passage doesn't do is give us an indication of what date that's gonna be.

Correct.

Uh and we've talked about that before in Luke's gospel around no one knows the day or the hour, the Son of Man will come like a thief in the night when he's least expected.

Yeah.

Um, but the imperative, the challenge or the the posture that we're called to is one of readiness, like you said, of of being prepared.

Because when that does happen, it seems that there's no time to go back and get your stuff.

It makes me think of you know, fire instructions when it's like, you know, in the event of a fire, don't go back to get your belongings.

Yes, leave the property.

Yeah, yeah.

It is an urgent thing.

Yeah.

Um, but we're not given an indication of a date.

So I I oh no, sorry, just to add to that, I was just thinking, you know, as we you know think about that as well, there is also which you know potentially leads us into that second part, is actually the sheep know the shepherd's voice, right?

And so there is this readiness of are we actively engaging and listening in to be ready, knowing that, you know, just like you described the fire plan, you need to know that this is where we gather when the fire alarm goes off.

This is what you do, and this is where you, you know, how how you act, this is your safety response.

The same is true as as people that follow Jesus, we need to be making sure that we are listening and ever present and close to our Heavenly Father because the sheep know the shepherd's voice.

We as disciples to Jesus, we don't want to be like those Pharisees or disciples who were saying, Where is it gonna be, Lord?

Because we're asking the wrong question.

We want to be people that go, Okay, like Lord, would you continue to speak to me and help me to be obedient so that when the fire alarm goes off, I'm ready to go.

Um and I I think you know the question that came in around this sort of went on to say, like, if this is about end times, and if we can interpret that we're in those end times, then shouldn't we be communicating that kind of urgently?

And I think there's an element where I'd say, yes, you know, we should we we I would argue that we don't know the date or the time, and I this passage doesn't give us a clear indication of the signs of the times.

Um it says people will go on eating and drinking and and people have always done those things, so it doesn't just because people do that today doesn't mean that we're any closer, but we know that this is coming, and I I think whether we think it's you know, we don't know the day or the hour, but we should communicate that Jesus will return, um and that that should give us the imperative, the urgency to to proclaim the good news, to give people um I guess that life raft or that opportunity, that invitation to be part of his kingdom, not out of a fear mindset of like I want to be saved from the rapture, but because of the goodness that uh the kingdom of God is about, and that comes through not just with our words, but also you know, in stuff that we talked about last week with life care and how we live out the kingdom of God, or what we actually demonstrate and show as a church that kind of makes people go, Hey, I want to be part of that kingdom.

That like that's also a challenge for us, not just um hey, Jesus is gonna come back, so like you know, get ready or you're gonna not get raptured.

Like, um yeah, I think there's there's so many motivations to to evangelize to share the message, and yeah, maybe maybe for me I'm more motivated by what's good, like what you know, like what's what people stand to gain from joining the kingdom rather than what uh they stand to to potentially lose, yeah.

Yeah, and I think the thing that I the hold in that as well is you know, there are so many different uh perspectives on you know rapture theology and all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

So what I guess I boil it back down to is actually where is my own faith at and my relationship with Jesus, and then what am I doing with that?

And how am I actually, as you say, you know, shouldn't we be as the question mentioned, you know, you know, preaching that from the from the pulpit and really, you know, hammering it home for people, you know, like is that the best way to share it?

Is the other way, right?

And so uh how how we feel that God is actually calling us into this is really key.

And so um, you know, what is my relationship with Jesus like?

And then how am I going about you know loving my neighbor?

That is the ultimate commandment, you know, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Uh, you know, that is what we're called to do, and so the way in which we can do that is is to share our faith and to be unashamed about that.

Um, you know, but there are different ways of going about that.

And I like that you point out, and you know, it's good to recognize that there are different perspectives around something like end times or eschatology to use the theological word.

There are different perspectives among Christian scholars, you know, not not this is not just the not everyone agrees on the same thing.

Exactly.

There's whole schools of thought on that, but there is great unity on the key things that Jesus will come again.

Yeah, that um Jesus is you know died, he has um redeemed us, he's ascended, he's with the Father, that he sent the Holy Spirit, that in between that time we're called to live as his people, and one day he will return and bring the kingdom in all its fullness.

What that exactly looks like, there are different perspectives because I would argue it's not ultimately clear in scripture exactly how that's going to play out, but what we do know for sure is that he will come again, he will put all things right, and he will judge justly.

So when we agree on those things, I think that's enough for us to kind of work together on sharing the message, correct, seeing what God's doing at the moment and how we can join in.

So it's worth noting that you know, totally you don't have to sort of agree with our take or my take or the people in your life group's take on exactly how this is going to play out.

But we do celebrate that Jesus is coming again, and I think that gives us all reason to hope to look forward with confidence and certainty, and that kind of urgency, that sense of like, hey, let's let get onto this as well, because that is coming.

So I hope that um we can all kind of agree on that, and that leads us nicely into a second question, which was you've shown us was related to this whole discussion of the coming of the kingdom of God.

But the second question was more in relation to chapter 18, the parable of the persistent widow.

And I'm gonna read this one, it's a longer quote, but um it's nice to hear directly from some of our questioners.

So here's the question: What are your thoughts on how God receives a persistent, repetitive prayer on a topic or need?

I remember as a child, I would bombard my parents with pleas for them to buy me a particular toy or a book or for them to take me somewhere.

And sometimes these requests were successful, often they were not, to the point that I was told to stop asking or begging.

I'm sure you're very much relating to this right now.

Uh continuing the quote: prayer is the medium for us to build a relationship with God.

How receptive, though, is God to being bombarded by a repetitive prayer?

Does God have infinite patience for our repeated prayers that may centre on topics that are well outside his plans for us?

So, long question, but I thought it's nice to kind of get that voice in there and that kind of personal example of um being a kid.

Um What are your thoughts on that?

How does God receive kind of this persistent prayer?

Does it annoy him?

Does it frustrate him?

Does it does he have on what did it say?

Infinite patience for it.

It's a good question.

And I laugh because uh most recently I've been bombarded by my twins uh with requests to get a yo-yo at school.

And uh we you know worked out a reason and a way in which we would, you know, they would, you know, pay this much, you know, with their saved money and they would get this and all of that.

And I've I said, be careful because I know that as soon as you get it, you're just gonna inevitably, you know, play with it for two minutes and then it's gonna sit there and do nothing.

And then what have they done?

It's sat there for two minutes and and it's done.

Anyway.

Just get them ushies.

Yeah.

Oh my, don't even start it on Ushies.

Yeah, sorry for our global audience that have no reference for what those are.

It is a supermarket promotion, which is very addictive.

Yeah.

I I think as well, what is clear throughout scripture is that this language of if your earthly father or if your earthly parent can give this, how much more does our heavenly father do that?

And you know, that's littered throughout scripture.

And this is true again here, where uh we read this passage, and you know, this language is interesting of bombarding.

I I love that imagery that you kind of are getting in that space.

And I don't think God sees it that way.

You know, that's how I like to understand that is actually God isn't going, oh, I'm being bombarded by all these prayers.

It's not like Bruce Almighty in that movie where he all of a sudden has to answer all of these prayers and he's going, There's so much going on and it's so overwhelming.

Again, if that's an earthly perspective, how much greater is our heavenly father?

And he invites us into that in all things by prayer and petition, present your request in all things, not just in some things or on occasion.

Uh, you know, the the prayer of a righteous servant or a fervent servant avails much, you know, so fervent, you know, someone who is, you know, uh, you know, really uh leaning in and persist these scriptures that Jesus uh oh sorry that that God invites us into is not saying not to do this, but actually to to persist in that this persistent widow or um you know the one who stands and knocks at the door.

Yeah, that's the one it reminded me of.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, so there's there's time and time again where the invitation is to be persistent.

Actually, he loves it when we're persistent because it's an alignment into relationship with him.

God is not like in that passage of chapter 18, he is not like the the judge that is, and I want to be really clear about that.

You know, when we read through scriptures, it can be quite easy for us to go, oh, this is me and this is God.

Yeah, and that's really quick.

And the parables, they are stories that are there to help uh illustrate a point, and it doesn't necessarily always have those links in, right?

And so God is not this judge because it says the judge doesn't fear God and doesn't care what people think.

God is not unjust in that space, and so and he's not answering our prayers because he's afraid that we're gonna attack him, like this judge is here.

Yeah, that is not who our God is, right?

So really want to make that super duper clear, yeah.

But sometimes it's kind of like that, right?

Because we read in the parable, like, oh, I'm this character, so therefore the other character must be God.

That's the kind of how we would naturally read it.

So thanks for clarifying that because you know that could be quite harmful for how we view God.

Um, but you're saying it's more that like if in this case, even someone who is so unjust, so uncaring, correct, and so so selfish, obviously, this judge, even if they can answer persistent requests or prayer, then how much more.

With God who is just, who is loving, who cares about people, um, similar to the father language that you brought up.

You know, if if human fathers can do this good and give good gifts, then how much more God?

So it's it's setting up a contrast again.

Yeah, and I think with the kingdom of God going back to that language, the kingdom of God is in our midst.

And the invitation then to shift this perspective of instead of looking far off into the distance, it's actually going, praying in the moment here and now for the things of this world, for the things that are uh we are encountering, the injustices that we're seeing that are around us, what's going on, and persisting and going, Lord, I just I give this to you.

Uh and not to underestimate the ability and how that actually draws us close into relationship with Him.

But then equally, you know, right down to the relationship again, coming back to that idea of the sheep know the shepherd's voice.

One of the things that Rachel and I we used to do was each pay cycle we would give ourselves$20 that we would then go and say, Lord, who is somebody that we could can you know bless with this, right?

And so we would persist in that.

We would do that time and time again.

And you know, you might do that every day for two weeks and not have an answer, but there's this like relational persistence to the point where what we were trying to do is go, we want to know the shepherd's voice, we want to open ourselves up to find opportunities where we can continue to see the kingdom of God at work in our midst, and for the god for the God that we love and serve to speak to us and say, Hey, as you're going through the supermarket, give to this person, or you know, as you're walking and you see somebody sitting that's in need, hey, here's$20.

What whatever it might be, that was a part of that, right?

So we can persist for praying for healing or for the injustices of this world, but we can also persist in prayer in some of those more everyday things that draw us closer to God.

So yeah, this has a I guess a bit of both in there, is what I'm saying.

Um, and you pointed to kind of relationship and intimacy, and I think that's probably important to bring to mind when it talks about prayer, and the question said prayer is the medium for us to build a relationship with God, and I I totally agree.

Uh, and I think what is important when it comes to repetitive intercessory prayer or prayer for our needs, is that that's not the only form of prayer that we engage in.

So God does tell us to be persistent, but if that was our only prayer life, then it becomes kind of the shopping list kind of prayer, um, particularly if it's self-motivated.

Yeah.

Yours was your example, was kind of how who do I bless, which is very outward-focused um kind of prayer.

But um, you know, to go back a few weeks ago, uh, I talked about gratitude.

Um so you know, we can pray and repeat prayers for things, but then when they're answered or when we receive good things from God, another part of prayer is Thanksgiving and gratitude, so which also builds the relationship and um makes the relationship more well-rounded rather than just a um, you know, if we only took this passage on prayer, yeah, it would be a kind of like let's just keep knocking until God gives us whatever we want.

But I'd like I would say, yes, that is true, but that's kind of a part of prayer.

Yeah.

Um, there's, you know, confession, there's adoration, there's just sitting and being with God, there's uh there's thanksgiving, and all of those things contribute to our relationship with Him.

And it's part of the you know, the exercise why we did the Visio Divina.

You know, if you didn't hear the sermon or didn't get a chance to go and be a part of that, I encourage you to go back and to check out uh that.

And even in the sermon notes, there is a guided process there where you can go through Visio Divina, getting an image and reflecting on some questions and allowing the spirit to speak to you as opposed to just going, Lord, I'm praying from me to you.

It's actually reading questions and allowing the spirit to speak to us in that space.

So yeah, I was so glad that you've closed us our time kind of on Sunday and online with that medium and that prayer practice.

And we've heard from a number of people just you know what God spoke to them through that practice.

So thank you for doing something a little bit different and introducing that to a number of us.

Uh and thanks for your time joining us today.

It's been great to kind of unpack the sermon and really big shout out and thanks to those who sent in these questions that enabled us to dive deeper uh into both sections of of the passage.

Uh, we we love having those live questions, and it's great to kind of be able to um talk about them.

And I've said before, like it just because you've asked it and now we've answered doesn't mean that that's like the right answer and it's kind of dealt with.

Yeah, we recognize that you may still have questions or you may um you know that that can be part of an ongoing conversation, so it doesn't need to stop here.

We like to continue the conversation, that's why we do this podcast.

But um, coming up next week uh on the podcast, we'll be joined by uh somebody on our preaching team, but uh she doesn't get preach as much as probably we'd like because she's an excellent preacher.

But that's Michaela Reid, our high school coordinator.

Come on now.

Uh yep, so we're staying in in the youth team and we're going to continue chapter 18.

She takes on the rest of chapter 18, so she'll be joined by um Pastor Grant Harris next week, uh hosting the podcast, Reflecting on our sermon.

So tune in on Sunday, whether that's online or in person, uh, and continue the journey of uh Luke's gospel with us.

Uh and until then, may God continue to shape us as we listen, learn, and follow Jesus together.