The Church: Growing Up - Peter Hughes - 26th July 2026

Firstly, what happened to the weather? Like I

came to Cairns thinking this was going to be

lovely and warm and guess I'm going to have to

come back. What we're gonna do today is gonna

be a little bit different to what we did yesterday.

I suppose what we could have done is we could

have gone, yesterday we looked at Ephesians chapters

one to three, we kind of looked at the idea of

church through God's great plan. I guess what

we could have done today is kept that going through

chapters four to six. But what I wanted to do

is that something a little bit different. I'm

gonna just focus on chapter four versus one to

16. And we're gonna spend a little bit of time

on that. But at the same time, I'm going to just

talk a little bit about some of the things that

we've learnt from the Reach Australia network

that may help you. I've been talking to Brendan,

he's talking about the plan to double the church.

So there may be some things that maybe help you

think through how that's going to work and some

of the things you may need to navigate to do

that. Churches sometimes will ask us to come

in and do a consult. We usually charge the church

to do a consult. What I'm basically doing, I'm

gonna give you a mini consult while I'm trying

to teach the Bible at the same time. We'll see

how that goes. So I'm gonna pray that God will

give us wisdom, because I may have bitten off

more than I can chew. And yeah, the other thing

I'm gonna say is I'm gonna work through some

stuff and I'm gonna pause. at certain points.

So you can ask me questions of going, yeah, but

how does that work and how's that going to work

for us? Because I kind of know you and we can

kind of work through that a little bit. We'll

see how it goes. We'll see how God has this planned.

Let me pray. Father, forgive me if I have bitten

off more than I can chew in preparation here

today for my plan for today. We pray that Your

Spirit will be at work and that He will be guiding

us, that He will be helping us. I pray that for

Northern Hope as a church, please we pray that

your spirit will be at work in them as they seek

to continue to reach more and more people through

their ministry, through their gathering. I pray

that you'll help me to speak your words faithfully

and truthfully. But Father we pray that you will

be at work in us today, that your name might

be glorified and we pray this in Jesus name.

What are you aiming to do as a church? It's an

interesting question, isn't it? Because what

are you aiming to do will define, you can't say,

every time you say yes to something, you say

no to something else. So why are you saying yes

to this and not to that? It will really be defined

by what you want to do as a church. And there'll

be all sorts of different, I mean, I know who

I'm talking to. I've talked to you over the last

24 hours. So I know when I'm saying this, it's

like, you're on a boat. And those of you, I know

there are some people in this room who know this

better than I do, but when you're on a boat,

you've got the wind pushing you one way, you've

got your swell pushing you another way, you've

got the tides going a different direction, and

then there's the direction you wanna go. And

if you just kind of focus on what's going on

in the boat, You're going to end up here, you're

going to end up on a reef because you need something

that's going to help you keep going in that direction.

Something's going to focus you there. On a boat,

it's a compass or it's a fixed point on land.

What is that for you as a church? Because like

I said, you've got to work out what you, every

time you say yes to something, you're saying

no to something else. And why are you saying

yes to that and no to that? And it's really important

that you, as a church, are unified on that because

it's where fights come up. Why are we doing this

and not doing this? I love that ministry. I want

that ministry. Why did we say no to that? And

it's important that not just how... I'm going

to try and give you a picture of what it's like

as the church in principle, but I'm also going

to give you a bunch of questions that you will

need to work through as a church here in Cairns.

How are you going to answer these questions?

What are you aiming for? What is that guiding

force that's going to be there? It's a little

bit like, you know, and again we can get lost

in this a little bit with all the detail. Soccer

teams. Soccer teams actually understand what

soccer is about. Now soccer teams do all sorts

of different things and you know even on the

team people will be kicking the ball the goalie

will know what he's doing some are defending

some are kicking that sort of thing but everyone's

trying to do the same thing and that is get the

ball in the goal right that's and i remember

talking to someone i was trying to explain ministry

and i think he thought that ministry was oh we

kick the ball around but somebody else up the

end kicks the ball in the goal and going no we're

all aiming to do that Or with maths. Again, you

can do lots of different things with maths. I

tried to pick something else that was there.

Maths. You can do all sorts of different things

with maths and you can open books, read things,

do all that. But what is it that you're actually

aiming to do is to learn maths. What are you

aiming to do as a church? What's the thing? Because

that will also determine not just what you say

yes to and what you say no to, but what you celebrate.

What does every soccer team celebrate? When I

score the goal, yeah, they do that and you know

World Cup they do the big celebrations or something

or if you're watching NRL Apparently the thing

is you got to do that. I don't I'm not really

sure what that's about Apparently someone scored

a try didn't do that and they signed a question

whether that was a real try or not But they celebrate

right? What do you celebrate? What's that moment

of celebration? But you can get distracted by

all these other different things. Even on a soccer

team, you know, you'll have a barbecue, you'll

have the uniforms, you'll have this, you'll have

that, but if you spend all your time trying to

arrange all of that and you forget that it's

actually all about helping the team score the

goal, it's kind of what's the point? And churches,

I think, can get distracted by all sorts of different

things along the way. What is it that we're actually

aiming to do? Well, Ephesians 4 talks about,

there are three, there's two things, but I'm

adding a third one in there. Growing up, That's

what it's about. Growing up as disciples and

growing up as a community. Growing up as disciples,

what is a grown -up disciple? What is a Christian

disciple? Because isn't that what Jesus asked

us to do? Therefore go into all the world and

make disciples. It's interesting, he also then

goes, baptizing them in the name of the Father,

Son and Holy Spirit. We go, oh that's great,

Trinity, that's good, but you forget the fact,

baptizing, that is including them into the people

of God, including them into the church. And again,

we can get distracted by this. If I go to my

daughter Evie and I say, hey Evie, go clean your

room. and then I come back to her and go, did

you clean your room? She goes, well no, I spent

a bit of time on YouTube trying to work out how

to clean my room and then I rang my friends and

I asked them how they clean their room and then

apparently there's some books on reading on how

to clean your room so I downloaded those and

I had a look at those and you know there's a

seminar on how to clean your room and I went

to that and I went, yeah but did you actually

clean your room? She went, oh no, it's too busy.

Right, and that's what we can do. We get so caught

up on everything else, too busy to actually do

the one thing which is go and make disciples.

grow as disciples. Let's have a look. So if you've

got your Bible open there, let's have a look

at Ephesians chapter one. Sorry, chapter four,

verse one. As a prisoner for the Lord, I urge

you to live a life worthy of the calling you

have received. If there is nothing else that

you remember today, that is the thing. Live a

life worthy of the calling you have received.

This is the great thing about Christianity. It's

not about, if I can just do enough, enough, enough,

then I'll reach Nirvana or I'll go to the whatever,

heaven or whatever. If I just do enough, he goes,

no, Jesus did it for you. You just gotta live

it out. You know how our society keeps saying,

just be true to you? Actually, they're right.

It's just the true to you is what Jesus has done

for you. So live that out. Live out the grace

you've been given. God has called you to be these

people, so live that out. Isn't that great to

just, that's what we need to do? And how often,

the rest of the chapter we'll also talk about.

So don't be like this, be like this, because

we keep going back to our old patterns, our old

kind of, because our, you know, your old shoes,

they're a bit more comfortable, and Jesus has

given you new shoes, and you've kind of got to

break them in. Live out your new life, the calling

that God has given you. Be you. And then he goes

on, what does that look like? Verse two, be patient,

humble, gentle, bearing one another in love.

It's just taking on the family traits of God

at this point of time, isn't it? Isn't that what

he's showing to us? Isn't that what he is as

a father to us? Yes, you're part of the family.

Take on the family traits. Take on the family

traditions. Keeping in mind, we worship a God.

who washes people's feet. Sorry, I'm going to

go off on a few tangents, so just keep that in

mind as we go through. John chapter 13. There's

John 13 · chapter mention

a moment in there, Jesus has gathered his disciples,

13 to 17, there's this long dinner they have

together. But at the start of chapter 13, he

says, Jesus knew that the Father put all things

under his feet. Like he was literally... No teenagers

here. He's literally the 15 -year -old teenager

who goes, the whole universe revolves around

me except for Jesus, it's actually true. He's

about to become the center of the universe. What's

the next words? So, he picked up his towel and

washes the disciples feet. Isn't that nice? That's

what our God is like and that's what we need

to be following. Take on the family traditions.

I'm going to keep going. Verse three, you'll

be glad to know I'm not doing every verse like

this, but make every effort to keep the unity

of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There

is one body and one Spirit just as you were called,

one hope to which you were called, one Lord,

one faith, one baptism, one God and Father over

all who is over all and through all. We saw this

yesterday for those who are here, we saw how

God is creating one new people. And it is we

express that as we come together, but also as

we see other churches as well. Now I realize

a lot of churches feel the guilt of why are we

not working together more and why can't we, we

need to, there's a guilt of we need to create

more unity. Let me alleviate you of that guilt.

You already have that unity. Jesus has given

you that. You don't need to create the unity

between different churches. You might need to

express that. Now, if I can speak as an outsider,

I realize I'm an outsider, but I've spoken to

a number of you, and I realize the relationship

between you and the Good Shepherd, how is that

kind of working? And some of you are going, I

feel like we need to have a closer unity. I want

to encourage you as an outsider, and I realize

I am an outsider. Just be patient. That unity

actually, Jesus has already created that unity,

but it may take you some time. There's some stuff

that needs to just happen, and time will do that.

The Spirit will do that. But don't feel the guilt

that you need to create that. It's already been

created for you in Jesus. But we do need to keep

that unity there. Let me jump down to verse 14.

Then we will no longer be infants tossed back

and forth in the waves blown here and there by

every wind of teaching and by the cunning and

craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

Instead we will be speaking the truth in love

and we will in all things grow up into Him who

is the head that is Christ. Stable and not moved.

Every so often there's a new trend that comes

out around Christianity everyone goes, ah we've

all got it wrong but it's alright I'm here to

save you. And some of you who are a little bit

older, you've seen these come and go, haven't

you? I've seen them come and go. And to sort

of not get panicked by this, but just to say,

well, let's just slow down. Let's just see if

it is true. Before we jump on every trend that

comes along, and I wanna say that includes anything

you see from Reach Australia. and go, oh well,

reach Australia, they've got the magic bullet.

I'm going, actually, no we don't. We're trying

to encourage you, we're trying to help you, particularly

what we see from the scriptures and what we understand

from churches, but just don't grab it because

it's the new thing. And don't be worried when

new ideas come along and batter you around. And

don't be worried when persecution comes. persecution

will come. One day something will happen, it'll

go in the local paper, something will blow up

and your name, the name of this church will be

there and my guess is that there'll be a meeting

and in that meeting someone will go, we need

to protect the reputation of the church and I

want at least one of you to ask the question,

do we? Is it really about us? I mean, didn't

we expect this? How about we just get on with

what Jesus has told us to do? Be stable and not

moved. Finally, speaking the truth in love. It's

a speaking thing. We have great opportunities.

I mean, we had a great opportunity there as we're

talking around the fire and that sort of thing.

But what do you talk about? It's great that we

talk about just life, things, hearing each other's

stories. I think that's great. But isn't it great

to be able to tell stories of, yeah, sorry, I

just realized it started to rain because you

promised me such beautiful weather here, but

if you're in the rain, please move around so

that there's plenty of chairs up here. I know

I'm not that scary. I don't bite too much, but

please be dry. But why don't you just have a

few things in the back of your mind? What? What

are things the conversation starters that you

can start to just kind of move you into the truth?

One of the ones my favorite one I stole this

from someone else because I steal all my best

stuff from other people is What what's God teaching

you at the moment? It's not a great anyone can

answer that question. What's God teaching you

at the moment? It might be tell me your story.

How did you become a Christian? It's a great

story What can I pray for you? Complicated. Anyone

can ask those questions. Anyone can answer those

questions. Great opportunities to just make sure

we got everything. Yeah, don't lose that. That

would be terrible. If this is being recorded,

that's going to come out really awkwardly, isn't

it? Go, what were they going to drop? And I'm

not going to tell you. You should have been here.

So that's the problem with listening to the recording.

Yeah. We've got everyone. Everyone's dry now.

Good. Is there anything over there that needs

to come in? Okay, let me kind of tie a few things

here together. How are you growing as a disciple?

Let me put it to you. What's something that you

need to work on? These are some of the things

that we've talked about. Sorry, I realised I've

just put these on a slide. There we go. Here

is a diagram that we use from time to time to

talk about a church, but I want to actually get

you to think about this as a disciple. I go through

this every year and I kind of look at myself

and I go, am I deep in the Word? Am I spending

my time in God's Word? This year I have, the

two things I've committed myself to is to read

the entire Bible. Well when I say read the entire

Bible, someone's reading it to me on a Spotify

thing, but I'm listening to the whole Bible.

And I'm also trying to memorize more scripture.

It's great having a Bible, it's great having

it on my phone, but having it in my head. And

there's a guy at our church, he's made a commitment

to memorize a hundred verses. am realistic that's

not going to work for me but I've got an app

that's helping me do that. How are you going

in being deep in the world? What about loving

God? How is your way of loving God and in prayer?

Yesterday I shared a little bit about my thing

of understanding that God loves me as his child

and learning to say that I love him. How's that

going for you? What about being in community?

Are there people here that you go, and now I

reckon you guys, this is one of your strengths,

as again, as an outsider, you guys know each

other well. A lot of you have known each other

for many, many years. How are you going with

helping people who are new include into your

community? Or are you, I mean, I don't know,

I'm asking the question, but I know for some

churches, get very comfortable, I know these

people, I've known them for years, it's great,

it's good. New people come in, that's a bit more

work. But if we love them, don't we want to see

them? Serving others? I might come back to that

in a moment, but how are you seeking to serve?

Mission. Are you praying for people who don't

know Jesus, at the very least? inviting them

to church. Again, I might come back to that in

a moment, but here is my point. My point is we

can often get into a spiritual plateau doing

the same things. Our relationship with God hasn't

moved. We're not growing up. We're not becoming

more like Jesus. We are not living out the life

that we have been called to, the grace that we've

been called to. You know, sorry, I remember hearing

a sermon. Actually, John Dickson, for those who

know John, he was preaching just around the corner.

We went there and he was preaching an evangelistic

sermon. He was talking about the judgment of

God and there was this big crack of thunder as

he was doing this. He goes, well, that doesn't

show it to you. I don't know what is. I'm just

wondering what's happening with the weather and

how much we can include that as we go along.

But here's the point. Are you planning, it is

worth actually kind of just looking at this and

go, yeah, I'm reading my Bible, I'm praying.

Okay, but where can you take another step? I'm

not saying you need to do something for all of

these and this is just a suggestion, but what's

one thing you can go, I need to just push in

a little bit more to living out my, not my comfortable

life, but the life that God has given to me.

How are we growing up as disciples? But it's

not just disciples. We want to grow up as a community

as well. I do want to talk a little bit about

this, that we are a people. Part of that is to

serve one another. We saw, we see that at the

end there in, oh gee, the wind's blowing all

my Bible around here, to verse six, from whom

the whole body joined together by every supporting

ligament grows. and built itself up in love as

each part does its work. You've been given a

gift. You've got to work out how you use it.

But how are we actually working together as a

community? And not just letting the leadership

thing, but I meant all of us. Because how we

love each other, here is how Jesus puts it, a

new command I give to you, that you love one

another. Just as I've loved you, you must love

one another. I want you to notice that last bit,

by this shall all men know if you are my disciples.

If someone walks in here and they're exploring

Christianity, here's what we see and we see it

again and again and again. We see it's not, I'm

sorry, it's not going to be Brendan's preaching.

It's not going to be how well they understand

the Bible. They're going to be watching you.

And what we saw yesterday about the glory in

the church. In fact, one of the things that we've

seen in some of the churches, particularly with

young adults, is they come in and they see the

community. They go, this is great. I want to

become a Christian so I can join this community.

I actually saw one guy, he gave his testimony.

He said, I saw this. I said, I want to be a part

of this. I'm going to become a Christian. And

he went to the person who was helping him understand

the gospel. He goes, I get it now. I want to

become a Christian. And she said, actually, you

don't. You're not ready because you don't understand

who Jesus is. But he was so enamored by the community,

which is on one hand a good thing. but it's got

to lead us to Jesus. We need to work together.

Now here's a, I haven't got a slide for this

because I only thought about this, I was thinking

about this this morning and the danger that you

may face is that you have a great community and

some of you may be sitting there going, oh if

we double in size am I going to lose my community?

Classic question for a church about this size,

they go, Now, on one hand, I want to say, okay,

what's more important, you being comfortable

or reaching the lost? But I also want to say,

you don't need to lose that. There are big churches,

in fact, I have a friend, right, let me tell

you this. I have a friend, he, again, they have

a building, sorry, and they had to rebuild their

building because it was too big and he was explaining

to some one of his people, he said, we need to

rebuild the building because uh the church is

too big she goes that's not too big there's only

you know like it's it's a small church she goes

actually there's a thousand people who meet here

in this church she's that's not true and he said

yeah it is and he went through and he showed

the numbers she goes but it doesn't feel like

it's a big church he goes yeah that's right so

you can have a big church and it can feel disconnected

and you can have a small church and you feel

like everyone's connected But you can also have

a small church and feel like no one's connected.

And you can have a big church and feel like everyone's

connected. And here is the secret, right? Here's

a secret source. You go, how do I get to that

point? It's the one another's. It's how do you

love one another and keeping that loving one

another through that. that process as you grow.

So the more you learn to love one another, don't

rely on Brendan, don't rely on the leadership,

I mean it's great, I'll come back to the leadership,

it'll be good, but learn to love one another.

And as people come in, teach them how to love

one another, and teach them to do that, and as

they come in, they'll go, this is a great community,

I love this community, and no one's gonna be

thinking about, well it's a thousand people,

I don't know everyone here, it doesn't matter,

there are people here who love me and I love

them, that's what matters. It's not the size.

So as you grow through that growth spurt, I'm

hoping, I'm praying you go through a growth spurt.

As you go through that growth spurt, hold onto

the one another's, but don't hold onto the size

of the community. Keep it going. And what I want

you to do is as you come together, there'll be

this, I came across this statement last week,

one of the church planters was talking about

how he describes his church. He goes, I want

churches that are, I want people who are stable,

they're not, they are holding on to the gospel,

they're not rocked around by all sorts of things,

but they're also lovely, they're warm and they're

loving. And so he came up with this lovely phrase

of warm rocks. And you know, the closer you get,

the warmer you stay. But not... distracted, not

unstable, not thrown around by every wind of

teaching, but warm. Isn't that a wonderful picture?

Pray that you'll be warm rocks. A grown -up disciples,

grown -up community. But there's one more that

I want to mention here and that is the people

who aren't here. Like I said, you want to double

in size. Jesus describes it as sheep who are

not yet in my pen. Just keep in mind, like I

said, there's a five, ten, I don't know, if you're

one of those people who like numbers, just keep

in mind, whatever thing that you're doing, there's

five percent of the people aren't here yet, and

you've got to work it out. Not just the people

in front of you, but the other five percent who

aren't there yet, and when they come in, that's

okay, there's another five percent, and just

keep going along there. One of the things that,

again, this is me just showing you some of the

things that we've learned that may be helpful

for you just to think this through. Does this

diagram look, have you done this diagram before?

No, okay, right. So one of the ways is just to

kind of think about how do we help people who

are not there, I'll try and get it the right

way, who are not there, how do we get them to

be a part of our community? And sometimes it's

helpful just to kind of break things down along

the way, just so that we're making sure that

works. One of the things that I see is when people

come in, I go to churches, they go, oh, we are

a very welcoming church. And I go, okay, tell

me about that. And they go, we have someone at

the door, they give them a piece of paper, we

talk to them. And I go, and then what? And they

are good things. Gotta do that, right? But if

you want someone to join your community, you're

gonna have to actually do something else along

the way. Part of that is to work out, are they,

are they? Are they Christian? Are they not Christian?

How do I help them? If they're not Christian,

I need to help them to understand. What does

it mean to know Jesus? So if someone comes into

your church, this is a question you need to answer.

If someone comes into your church, what's the

mechanism that you've got to help them to understand

who Jesus is? Now if the answer is, I'll introduce

them to Brendan, that's not really going to work

for you. Because what happens if Brendan gets,

I know we're in cancer, what happens if Brendan

gets taken by a croc? Normally it's hit by a

bus. But the problem is, there's going to be

a point where there's too many people for Brendan

to deal with. So you can't rely on Brendan at

that point in time. What's the mechanism? Now

one of the things that we've learned is that

people who want to understand Christianity, because

the way that Australia is at the moment, when

people want to understand Jesus, it takes them

some time and it takes them some people and takes

prayer. and so sometimes just kind of going well

Jesus died for your sins and you need to trust

in him okay you're ready to go let's go it takes

some time to do this and so what we found is

giving them a couple of weeks of working through

that and they see people go oh okay that's what

it means to follow Jesus I'm not like Brendan

but I am a bit like Steve so yeah okay I can

get that I can see how that works and for them

to go but hang on so how does You believe in

the Bible. So hang on, let me get this right.

So you're saying some Jewish guy who was around

2 ,000 years ago on the other side of the planet

said some stuff, never wrote a book, but got

executed by the Romans and because of that I

am now God's child. Is that what you're saying?

Well, yeah, and it sounds weird, doesn't it?

And they've got to kind of break all of that

down. So I want to ask you, how are you kind

of helping them understand the gospel? converted

thing. And then actually there's a whole bunch

of stuff there where someone comes into church,

maybe this is you, and they're going, what's,

why do you meet on Sundays? Why are we singing?

What's this small group thing that you've got

going? Why are we having family camp? Like there's

a whole bunch of things where we just do, we've

done for years and years and they just go, I

don't understand how that works. Again, how are

you helping them? I also want to encourage you

to think about how you're helping people join

your church. Let me explain what we do in our

church. Our church is a bigger church, but one

day you're gonna be that size, so you need to

know this, so here we go. How we do it in our

church is the first thing they do is they meet

the minister for 15 minutes after the service.

They go, if you're feeling newish, and we call

it newish, They don't do a lot with marketing

in our church. If you're feeling newish, go to

newish and basically sit down with Dave. Dave

goes, okay, here's the deal. We love Jesus and

we want to see people come to know Jesus. If

you're on board with that, this is a good church.

If you're not on board with that, there's some

other churches around. He's pretty blunt on that.

Then we kind of had them a couple of weeks ago,

this is how our church works. And actually what

they'll do is they'll go, here's some tricky

stuff that churches have different views on.

so they go here is we want to be upfront with

you about that I'll be clear some of that's got

to do with the role of women in church divorce

and remarriage how we how we sit with LGBTI kind

of things and goes we're just being upfront We

love everyone, we want everyone to know Jesus,

this is how we think we're following Jesus. You

can find their papers. But what they're doing

is basically saying, if you want to join us,

this is what it means. Then put them into small

groups and help them along the way. Now let me

just stop there for a moment. Has anyone got

any questions on how that works or anything that

I've missed that's there? I don't know what you're

doing. So I've intentionally not asked that question.

So I can't tell, yeah, we do all of that or no,

actually, we haven't really thought about that

or we've started doing that. I don't know. So

yeah, but now's a good time to ask questions.

do you have another team that they go, hey these

guys are new, can you have all your days reflect

them to somebody like how did you do that time?

Yeah yeah I think thank you Barbara that's a

really good question. Now again this is going

to be slightly different for you guys because

you're a slightly smaller church so and a lot

you're a very highly relational church. So let

me again let me tell you because we're again

the problem with our church is it's a growing

church, it's a bigger church. because it's grown

so quickly, the relationships are not there.

And so we're half of us are going, I can't even

tell who's new and who's not because we're, you

know, so, so Nathan, who's that guy who's does

this, there's two things that he does. Sorry,

there's three things, but one of them you can't

do because he has a phenomenal memory. So he

memorizes every single person who walks in. And

if you've walked in the last six weeks, he'll

remember you and remember your name and that

sort of thing. And that's, that's got people

coming back because but no one's like Nathan.

So just ignore that one. The second thing, now

there is a video on this actually, I did a video

to show you this is what he does on the Reach

Australia thing and I'll send it to Brendan so

you can have a look. The second thing that he

does is they welcome people in the door just

like any other church, go hi welcome church,

you know he gives them a thing, sends them through,

that sort of thing. Then, because we're a bigger

church, in the last song he gets his welcoming

team and they stand up the back and they go okay

who's new? that one that one that one and he

makes sure that someone either someone on the

team or every so often the team will be overwhelmed

and he'll send me a text and go can you talk

to the person that but what his goal is he goes

in a big church they can easily get lost so i

want to make sure that someone's talking to them

within a minute of the service finishing uh and

so he makes sure that his team is is doing that

because we're a bigger church we've got a that's

got to be a much more disciplined process And

part of that is to kind of go, okay, we want

you if you're when you're ready. Because some

people take a long time before they're ready

to join the community. And you know, you've got

to be patient. And there's a plan. But people

are messy. And they don't always stick to that

plan. But that's okay. You know, we kind of get

some people just jump around and you go, okay,

that's great. But I just need to help you, you

know, make sure that everything's there. But

then we'll kind of go, hey, great it's great

you want to be part of the community when you're

ready here is kind of how we help you do that

just to go through that process with them but

by having everyone having that team at the back

it's kind of made the rest of us twig oh if there's

a new person i should go and talk to them so

most of our people just automatically now do

that and half the time i'm going hi i'm pete

are you new and they go no i've been here for

five years and i'm like going well welcome to

church and gets a bit awkward but yeah um but

it's better than not doing that Does that answer

your question Barbara? But I think the key thing

there is that Nathan's got a plan and you've

just got to work out how do you work that plan

out, how do you work that out for here. Don't

do what Nathan does because he's trying to do

it for a different thing. You're going, how do

I get a highly relational church to make sure

that when someone comes in, I mean one of the

dangers that you guys might face is that when

someone new comes in, you all just kind of crowd

around them and they're like, oh, now I'm freaked

out. But at the same time, you don't want everyone,

you don't want them to be ignored. I actually

reckon, yeah, if someone walks in, if someone

talks to them within the first two minutes at

the end of the service, and if someone contacts

them within 24 hours after the service, they

are, I think someone said, you've got an 80 %

chance of them coming back. I don't know how

they work that out. I'm just giving you the...

I'm just throwing out numbers like they have

some sort of authority, right? But they're probably

good things to do. Any other questions? Yeah.

Before you mentioned churches growing rapidly,

that number, is that counted just as people coming

and enjoying the community and going, I want

to be a part of Jesus' life? Is that the numbers

of, I have given my life and I'm here for the

real reason? Yeah, that's a really great question.

Sorry, what was your name? Wenita, sorry Wenita,

thanks for reading the Bible yesterday, you did

a great job. Yeah, there's a range of different

things and so there are people, I mean there

are people who are just swapping chairs on the

Titanic so to speak, where you know come from

one church and they go to another church and

I want to kind of discourage that a little bit,

like if you're... depends on why they're leaving

that's a whole big thing kind of thing but if

it's like oh it's a pretty good church I just

like this church better I'm going yeah you don't

understand what church is about stay there make

your church better. There are some people who

are coming to church because they are genuine

inquirers about Christianity and like that's

at the other end and that's yeah we want to keep

encouraging them and that's great and there's

been the number of people that I keep hearing

around the thing where church has done nothing

and there are people just walking in and they're

going how awesome is that like that's great um

so you've got that you've also got people who've

gone oh i haven't been to church for a while

and especially the covid thing uh although that's

that's getting less now or they're they used

to go to church they've just moved to cairns

and they've gone you know what we've changed

our life, it's probably time to get back to new

habits and come back to church as well. And so

you've kind of got that group of people as well.

So you've got different people, and there are

people who will come, I've got to be careful

how I say this because it's being recorded, come

from let's say a church of a different tribe.

and they've decided, no, I want to come to a

church that teaches the Bible a bit more faithfully.

And I actually think you've got to treat those

people slightly, I mean this is all a nice neat

little thing, but actually you've got to treat

each of those groups of people slightly differently

to help them connect in with the community. So

if you've got someone coming from another different

tribe, they'll have different expectations of

church, you're going, yeah that's not how we

do that here, let me help you understand that.

Or if you've got someone who's coming back to

church, Sometimes again, there's some hurt or

there's some pain there and it's actually worth

kind of going through. That shouldn't have happened

to you. On behalf of the church, I want to apologize

and help them go through that healing process.

Is that the kind of question you're asking? Yeah,

okay, cool. Like I said, it'd be nice if people

just went through this kind of thing, but people

are messy. And so you have a plan and then you

have people and you've just got to work out how

those two work together. All right. Any other

questions? Otherwise, I'm going to keep going.

How does the growing actually happen? One is

you have been given gifts, extraordinary gifts.

Some of you got some great administrative gifts,

some of you got some great technical gifts. I've

always joked the reason why Jesus has 12 disciples

is because at the Sermon on the Mount, three

of them were on tech at that time, so that's

a joke. Good, I'm glad we got that one. people

have different gifts. I mean, when I started

the church plant, I did a thing on an Excel sheet

and one of the guys came to me and said, he treated

me like I'd spelt my name right as a three year

old. He goes, yeah, well done, Pete. You tried.

That's good. That's not your software. You should

never download that ever again sort of thing.

And he took it over and it was great. But we've

all been given different gifts. And it's one

of the things that reminds us that Jesus is alive.

I won't go through that in Ephesians, but you

know that he has died, he's risen. And because

he's risen, He gives us His Spirit and so He

gives us gifts. And so you can, and I think in

Australians we're not great at seeing our gifts,

we're much better at seeing gifts in other people.

And sometimes it's worth actually asking people,

what do you think my gifts are? And people will

see things in you that you don't see in yourself,

it's just the Australians, that's what we're

like. But we can't miss that because we're Christians.

And the gifts in some cases are people, I'll

come back to that in verse 11. But you see in

verse two, verse seven, sorry, I should read,

that's why I need my glasses. But to each one

of us grace, actually the word there, the Greek

word there is gifts. Grace has been given, gifts

have been given as Christ apportioned it. So

you've been given the right amount of gifts.

Part of that is our people. and you see that

in verse 11, is some He gave to be apostles,

some prophets, some pastors, some teachers, some

sorry, some to be evangelists, some to be pastors

and teachers. Come back to that in a minute.

But again, it comes back to verse 16, the whole

body joined together by every supporting ligament

grows and build itself up in love as each part

does its work. Everyone has a part. Now, there's

a couple of things you've got to keep in mind

here. Not everyone has the same gift. And that's

okay. And I know some people will get jealous

and go, ah, they've got the upfront gift and

they can do that, that's really good. Some people,

everyone has a gift. It's not about whether you've

got a better gift or the other. It's whether

you're using your gift in love. That's what Paul

was writing to the Corinthians about. He goes,

yeah, you got all these great gifts, but are

you loving? Are you using your gift to love?

Whatever you got, use it to love those around

you. But keep in mind, different people will

have different capacities. I had a ministry trainee

and I'm a bit more of an introvert. I got to

the end of the fire thing last night and I just

went, my introvert, my battery, my people battery

was at E, right? I just, I can't, sorry, I can't

do another conversation and Steve and Sandra

are very kind, took me home. But I'm an introvert.

I like time by myself. I work with this guy called

Carl. He is an extreme extrovert. So I would

disciple people. I meet with guys. I can meet

with about five guys, one to one per week on

top of everything else. And he's like, he starts

with 12. And I'm like, oh, man. And then on Friday

night, he has a whole bunch of people over for

dinner to his place. And then on Saturday, he

spends all his time with people. And then I'm

like going, and it took me a while to realize.

he's supposed to be my trainee but I can't keep

up with him and I said and that's okay because

that's the way God's made him that's the way

God's gifted him and some people have different

capacities I need you to keep that in mind because

sometimes we get so caught you know that that

thing we get we get very focused on service and

some of us who have larger capacities go why

is not everyone else keeping up with me and or

larger capacities, we suffer from burnout. Now,

actually, can I throw something to you? Sorry,

you're on, Juanita. Can you get that diagram

back up again for a moment? Let me just give

you something that's gonna be helpful for you.

Some of us will get so caught on serving and

then we burn out and we get bitter. The first

sign of that is, why isn't everyone doing what

I'm doing? When you start thinking that, that's

a red flashing light, address it. and what we'll

tend to do is go, I feel like I'm doing everything,

that's making me grumpy, so I'm gonna stop doing

things. Because that's the problem. Actually,

that's not your problem. Your problem isn't the

serving others, that one. Actually, what your

problem is, is the one on the other side, it's

loving God. You've stopped loving God, you've

spent so much time on serving, and what you actually

need to do, if you're gonna step back, step back

and go, how do I get my heart and my mind around

loving God? because what at the moment I'm focusing

on serving and that's what's burning me out.

Don't step back, step into loving God. See this

thing all connects together, that's why we run

it the way we do. There are all these different

things, they all connect together and sometimes

the problem isn't on one side, it's on another

side. So just keep that in mind. How am I going

for time? Am I going over time? Whatever. We're

going, we're going, we're going cancer on. So

yep. And I don't want you to underestimate the

ministry of prayer. I know some people go, oh,

like physically I can't do stuff, or there are

seasons that we go through, particularly if you've

got young kids, and they go, my ministry is just

my kids, you go, that's okay. And like I said,

remember we talked about Karen yesterday, Karen

just turned up, she's got two kids, and you go,

yep, that's your ministry, that's you. And our

ministry to you is to help you do that. different

seasons, different capacities, but don't underestimate

prayer is one of those ones that you can do.

Don't underestimate it. Some of you may have

trouble just like if you're a Kyle, sorry if

you weren't here yesterday, just go with it.

There's a guy called Kyle, you know Kyle can't

sit still. The way that I encourage Kyle's to

pray is okay, When you get up in the morning,

when you put your feet on the ground, pray for

someone. And then when you get your cereal out,

you pray for someone, remember to pray for someone

else. And when you put the milk in, remember

to pray for someone else. And you just, as you're

doing stuff, you go, all right, I've got to remember

to pray for cereal. I don't know, it's got connected

to missionary. So that's when I'm praying for

missionary friends. Oh, there's one I was going

to say. Sorry, just put it. thing to get I realized

that could be really inappropriate so let me

try something else and you know when I'm putting

sugar on my cereal I don't put sugar on your

cereal but when you know my wife is sweet so

that's I'm gonna pray for my wife yeah just kind

of you don't have to do it where you're just

sitting there just work out how it works for

you let me just quickly go through leaders and

then I'll stop for questions there but one of

the gifts we get our leaders we get Brendan's

it's great but you see that they're inverse I

said I'd come back to it, verse 11. Some to be

apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists,

some to be pastors and teachers, and I realise

everyone goes, is it pastors and teachers two

different things, are they the same thing? It

doesn't really matter. But you'll notice, what

do you notice about that? Apostles, what do they

do? They wrote the New Testament. Prophets, what

do they do? They wrote the Old Testament. What

do evangelists do? They tell people about Jesus.

What do pastors and teachers do? The leadership

comes from the Word. That's why the preaching

is so important. Studying the Word is so important.

That's why, like I said yesterday, question time

is so important because you get to come back

to the Word. But what's their job? It's not just

to teach the Word, verse 12, it's to prepare

God's people for works of service so that the

body of Christ might be built up until we all

reach unity in the faith and the knowledge of

the Son of God and become mature at turning to

the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

us working, so Brendan's job is actually not

to do ministry. Some of us kind of get into the

point of, oh, we give money so we can pay Brendan,

and I don't think we'll ever say this out loud,

but there's probably something in the back of

our head going, I give money to pay Brendan so

he does the ministry and I get on with my life.

Yeah, no, that's not how this goes. Brendan's

the coach, you're the players. So his job is

to equip you for works of service. Now one of

the things that we notice in Reach Australia

is there are sometimes two problems with this.

Sometimes the leader doesn't give responsibility.

So you've got to give responsibility and take

responsibility. Sometimes the leader doesn't

give responsibility or the way they give responsibility

is they give the responsibility but they hold

onto it and they kind of micromanage it and that

sort of thing. Sometimes it's like they just

throw it at you and go yep, you go and do that

So sometimes they just throw the responsibility

and they don't do it. Well Friend of mine called

Dave Moore has written a really helpful book

on a couple of books on this the team leaders

handbook and the team members handbook. How do

you move that responsibility around and that

sort of thing? I do want to say in the team members

handbook, there's a number of conversations between

Dave and a guy called Pete. I don't remember

any of those conversations, but apparently they

were conversations he and I had. So please keep

that in mind. But here's what, here's how responsibility

works. Like Dave taught me this. He said, I came

over to his place and he said, I said, oh, can

I pack the dishwasher for you? He goes, yeah,

this is an S1 thing. I said, what's the S1 thing?

He goes, S1 is I'm just telling you how to do

it and you don't get to debate anything. I went,

okay. He goes, you put the plates there, you

put the forks there. I go, okay, tell me a bit

more about this S1 thing. He goes, well, the

S1 is I'm just telling you how to do things.

Now, in some ways, sometimes that has to happen.

Sometimes Brendan has to do that. When I work

with people, I go, here's the system. If I call

S1, I'm sorry, this isn't a debate, this is urgent,

I need to get it done. the rain's coming down

we need to move the table this isn't the time

for a committee meeting this is move the table

right s2 the second step is to go um brendan's

going to make a call and stuff but let's just

get some input let's make some decisions but

let's note this isn't a democracy where everyone

gets to vote on it brendan will make decision

but you'll want to hear what you've got to say

but then there's another point where brendan

needs to actually hand over responsibility sorry

man i'm just picking on you because you're in

the front Brendan needs to hand over responsibility.

This gets scary for leaders and go, okay, I'm

gonna get Lucy, isn't it? Sorry, I haven't met

you yet, but I'm just gonna pick on you because

you're in my line of sight. Sorry for that. Really

regretting to sitting at the front now, even

though that was what you were trying to be encouraging.

And now I've made it worse for you. So Lucy comes

along and said, I'm gonna give some responsibility

to Lucy. Brendan's gonna, now Brendan can suggest

things to Lucy, but it's Lucy's call. That's

an S3 thing. That's a big shift. And so Brendan

go, I reckon you should do this and this, but

Lucy's decided, no, no, we're gonna do it this

way. At this point, Brendan, now Lucy, you've

got to make sure Brendan does that and lets you

do that. Go, Brendan, we agreed. This was an

S3 thing. I've got responsibility here. And so,

you know, you could go, I want, sorry, I'm just

trying to think. I want pink balloons all along

the thing here. And Brendan's gone, that's gonna

be really, and you go, no, it's your responsibility.

Then S4 is the next step. I'm sorry. I'm throwing

this to you very quickly, but the S4 is there

to go, okay, Brendan's given something to Lucy.

Brendan doesn't have any input. Lucy, you've

got responsibility. You can make it work. It

might be something to do with an Excel sheet,

and if Brendan's anything like me with an Excel

sheet, it's better he doesn't tell you anything,

because that's just gonna make things worse.

But you see how it's a gradual progression that's

there? And some of that is Brendan having to

give that responsibility. And some of it is some

of it where you need to go, hey, Brendan, I need

to take that responsibility. But it's an important

part in that whole thing. But keep in mind, it

is important that you don't just take responsibility

without asking Brendan. When I mean take responsibility,

I don't mean steal it. And I don't mean taking

the wrong responsibility. coming in and going,

you know what, I've decided I'm going to preach

up the front now, or something like that. But

you need to be working through it. Brendan's

still the leader. He actually has to give an

account for you before Jesus. Hebrews 13, 17.

But there's a point where his job is to help

you build the body, to equip you. And so there's

a give responsibility and take responsibility.

Now let me just pause there. Got questions on

that? Anything I can do to help you with that?

did I've given you a lot of information I've

overwhelmed you so if you want me to go back

and just help clarify something then now's the

time to do that yeah sure sorry yeah yeah and

I know this is going to be a bit of a pain but

piece of papers actually help you at this point

of time to actually sit down and go okay Particularly

if it's an ongoing ministry to go okay. Here

is what you can do. Here's what you can't do

Here's what you need to ask me for here is what

you can just do by yourself Like that's that's

as simple as that try and keep it to one piece

of paper So that means that when you feel sorry,

what is your name? Dale, sorry Dale. So Dale,

when you feel like Brendan's not going to do

this, but Brendan starts to micromanage you a

little bit, you can kind of get the piece of

paper out and go, Brendan, this is what we agreed

to, right? But he can also kind of go to you

and say, hey, Dale, we agreed to do this. Is

there a problem here? Can I help you with something?

How do I help you fulfill that? But I think,

yeah, taking the responsibility, does that make

sense? Yeah, I think that's a really helpful

thing to do. And we have other churches that

have done something like that. And again, I can

make sure that Brendan gets a hold of that so

he can pass it on to you. But you've got to keep

in mind, taking responsibility means taking responsibility.

I think too often we kind of go, oh, I don't

really feel like doing that today. And so you

ring up Brendan and go, oh, I'm not turning up

to kids ministry today. I'd rather sit around

and watch the football. That's not taking responsibility.

When you take responsibility, you're saying,

I'm going to be there. I have that responsibility.

I'm going to see it through. I realize some people

get sick, I understand that, but yeah. Yeah.

My name's Faye. Oh, thank you, Faye. I can give

you a perfect example of what's happened to me

with passing the baton. Sure. So Brendan gave

Sam the responsibility of running the can. Yeah.

And then Dan came to me and said, I'd like you

to do a craft floor course. Yep. that's up to

you sure yep let's see so yeah that's a really

helpful one so so when yeah yeah give her a clap

all right so when dan gave you that he's kind

of gone that's an s4 thing is dan here now you

can talk all about it okay good but sorry again

i'm an outsider i'm watching dan do his thing

um dan's my guess is dan's pretty clear on i

don't know how to do craft you do so I'm just

going to hand that that's an S4 thing so he's

handed that straight on to you Brendan's given

Dan the responsibility of running this my guess

is that's an S3 thing so so Brendan's gone hey

Dan we need to organise this here are some things

that we need to make sure that we're doing rest

of it is your call make it happen. Did I get

that right? Yeah cool. So yeah and that's really

it. Thank you. That's super helpful just having

that kind of thing there and just taking a step

back and go okay where do those conversations

fit and I think actually whenever you're having

that conversation either Faye, you with Dan or

Dan with Brendan or anyone with Brendan, just

kind of go so can I just clarify what classification

this is so that I'm clear as to what my responsibility

is and what your responsibility is. So I found

that super helpful in the ministries that I've

been involved with. even still today. Any other

questions? Oh yeah, one more. and then the others,

the rest are watching the newcomers and then

they try to sit behind them and then make sure

that they will talk to them afterwards if they

have any questions and everything. And what you

said that to bring them up, if they're in the

24 hours or 48 hours, that is incredible. They

will value that they are valued by them. by the

church, because I got so many bad experiences

from my daughter, that they went to churches

and then no one talked to them. The first time,

the second time, the third time, and then it

came back and said, Mum, that's it, I'm not going

to church anymore. So the whole church from Sydney,

they even have welcoming morning tea, or afterwards

lunch when they are more stable. sounds like

you know exactly what needs to happen so this

is great so I'm sure Brendan will be talking

to you about that in a moment but yeah but I

do want to say that the phone call for example

doesn't have to come from Brendan and I know

it gets a bit scarier I don't have to ring this

person up what do I say well let me give you

it's like Hey, I'm Pete. I saw you're at church.

You say, I just want to say thanks for coming.

I'm really glad that you were there. Is there

anything that you had any questions about or

anything like that? Love to see you back there,

but just want to say thanks for coming. That's

all you need to do. Like, just thanks for coming.

That's it. And the number of people go, wow,

yeah, they actually care that I was there. That's

all you're really showing. And it's how long

was that conversation? Less than 15 seconds.

There you go. Let me go back. I want you to just

imagine Northern Hope Church in 10 years time.

What's it going to be like? What are some of

the things that you may need to say no to in

order to get to where you want to go? Now I know

there was a church that I was involved with and

they had a they had a weekly craft thing and

It was one of those things that because they

had that we said yes to that it meant that we

couldn't use the building on a Tuesday morning

where we really wanted to run a mums -and -bubs

thing and it was just a really moment It was

a bit of a tense moment and we really there was

a thing where we actually what we needed to do

to say Hey, love your craft thing But let's not

do that as a church Can you do that in your place

and invite people over and do it that way so

that we're free because the mums and bums are

going to help us grow the church? We didn't do

that, we should have. What are you going to say?

I know saying no to things, it's hard, but it's

important. You need to learn how to do that.

But what's the church going to look like in 10

years? There is... focusing on where you're gonna

go. There's a book called Simple Church and really

he's just going, just keep it clear. Where's

your compass? Where's your point? Growing disciples,

making disciples, growing as a community as disciples.

That's what guides you. You've got to keep doing

that. Okay, Juanita, we're gonna throw, I'm gonna

throw that photo with the kids. Can you bring

me back to that? What's the church? going to

be like in 10 years. Well more importantly, what

is the church that you're going to pass on to

these guys? What's that going to be like? I know

there is an urgency of going, well Jesus is going

to come back, we need to be ready and so we do

tend to get into that urgency and we do tend

to go, we've just got to get through the next

year or the next month or usually the next week,

the seven -day cycle, that's what keeps us going,

but I want you to look at them. What is the church

you're going to leave them? a church full of

warm rocks, a church full of mature people who

love Jesus, serve Jesus, and love people who

don't know Jesus yet. Is it going to double in

size? What's the church you're going to leave

these guys? I can't answer that for you. You

need to work this out. Once you've worked that

out, you've got to work out how you're going

to get there. What's the cost that you need to

bear to get there? Is this going to be a church

where they can invite their friends and their

friends have come, they've started loving Jesus?

Imagine what your church is like in 10 years.

I have gone over time, I apologize for that,

but I want to leave you with... God is a big

God and I think we insult him when we pray little

prayers. So I'm going to pray a big prayer for

you. Father, you are a great God who does great

things. You rescued Israel out of Egypt. You

got them to walk through the Red Sea and sometimes

in our our instant Culture where we press a button

and we just want things to happen and we pray

to you and you don't do things Immediately and

we don't follow your timing. We forget that you

are a great God who does great things Father

I pray for Northern Hope Church now that you

will double their numbers That they will have

all the problems of a growing church of where

do we find leaders? How do we do this? I? Pray

that you'll provide them with a great building

that enables them to do that. I pray that you

will see we will see more and more people turn

to you in faith and repentance through them.

Father I'm not going to tell you how you do these

things because I have learnt that whenever I

tell you to do these things you just laugh at

me and do something even greater. So whatever

you choose to do we give this to you and we look

forward to seeing that we will watch and see

what you do. and we pray this in Jesus name.

Amen. Thank you. I have so enjoyed being a part

of your church over the last few days and I will

have to leave a little bit later on this morning

but I want to say thank you for letting me be

a part of your community and I'm looking forward

to coming back at some point. That'd be great.

Thank you.