Episode 048 - Podcast | From Beatitudes To Action: Why Sacrificial Giving Shapes A Church That Cares

Hello and welcome to Heart of the Hom Lee Podcast.

We are so delighted to be back.

So welcome, Fala Vrigoen, who's our host, and I'm Michelle Lopez and um our co-host.

Our co-host.

So we are.

Good to see you, Michelle.

How's it going?

It's good.

It's been two weeks since we've got it's a busy time, right?

I I thought that this early before Lent would be kind of a smooth transition to the busyness of Lent, but it's the year started and it's been running, right?

I feel it.

But I'm also looking forward to Lent because I'm like, okay, it's coming.

And it's not like it's a break, but it's like a spiritual like renewal to focus.

Such a special time, Lent.

Yes.

I agree.

It's it's my favorite time of the year.

And and I would encourage anyone who's listening now, start thinking.

Start thinking about what to do for Lent.

Away like three weeks away, even.

And we have some great programs uh that we are starting at St.

Augustine.

So make sure you're going on the website and and checking out the bulletin because that small group that you did last year, that was popular.

People loved it.

And it's a great way to enter, right?

It's a great way to enter into Lent.

It's amazing.

To do it with community and also something that gives daily reflections to really go deep is, I mean, it's amazing.

So be active, be active, join us.

Uh active participation in Lent is very necessary.

Yeah.

So good.

Awesome.

Well, today we are looking at um the Gospel of Matthew and opening up your homily from the weekend.

So I thought I'd start just by reading from the Gospel of Matthew since we're looking at the Beatitudes.

Sure.

And that kind of inspired the direction for your homily.

Um so this is Matthew 5.

When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain, and after he sat down, his disciples came to him.

He began to teach them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.

Blessed are the hung those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

And blessed are peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

So the Beatitudes, which we're so familiar with, I'm sure.

We've heard that over and over again.

So kind of extended to open up a little bit of um kind of a way in which it kind of teaches us discipleship and ask some good questions.

So um so Father, what inspired your direction of the homily?

Because it kind of went in a particular direction to look at uh really stewardship and a call to take action with um our kind of time, talent, and treasure and looking at how we're living that part of the gospel.

Well, it was it was providential because uh we could have done ABCD weekend last weekend.

I chose to do it this weekend because of this gospel of Beatitudes.

Why?

Because it goes together so well.

And um, for those of you listening may not know what ABCD is.

It's the Archbishop's charities and development drive, it's the bishop's appeal that he does once a year.

And we have a large goal.

And um, but I think it's good.

A lot of pastors maybe like we have to be giving money to the archdiocese or or this or that.

I think it's uh a very good exercise that we do.

Why?

Because it's part of our discipleship, it's part of our everyday living.

And we have to think outside of just our parish, right?

We have it's we're not like I mentioned in the homily, we're not part uh, we're we're not just some storefront church.

We're connected to this larger body, this universal church.

And I think that when we donate, when we give, when we're generous uh to um uh to an appeal that's outside of our parish, we are in, we are operating and understanding that we are in communion, right, with the bishop, uh communion with Rome.

Why?

Because how beautiful it is to go anywhere in the world, go around our our beautiful country and and be with Catholics, be with like-minded people.

I think it's it's um it's a beautiful thing to celebrate our faith with people we don't even know, right?

And that connects us and it it's uh it's all part of being the body of Christ.

Yeah, and actually I I went to the noon mass in um the bishop from Ukraine there, and I I thought it was just so fitting.

So I was like, here's this bishop from Ukraine on the other side of the world, other side of the planet, also lives a life radically different than us because you know they're in a war and also it's freezing over there.

Yeah.

Um, but so many things I was like, this is um yeah, so beautiful to be able to consider the universality of our church, but also that if what we do matters, like when we pray, when we give, and especially for things that are outside of our own bubble, like it makes a difference, you know.

It does.

And I think that having the bishop there from Ukraine, he's the bishop of Kiev, and uh they're suffering right now, uh, the atrocities that are happening because of the war.

And and he was able to really talk about that and and share his life experience.

And and he even said it, he says, I am a witness to these atrocities.

Um and for for him to come to our community and say thank you, thank you, because in November you had that collection.

I think I was very proud of it.

It was something like at the end of the day, something like$30,000,$35,000 that we were able to send to the Ukraine to help in their efforts.

And um, but again, you're absolutely right, how his visit tied everything together.

So it's it's not just that we give to the Archdiocese of Miami for the different programs that we support, which is very important.

We got to support our local church here in South Florida and all the great things that the archdiocese does.

And and I remember when I was in the archbishop's office, I saw this firsthand.

So it's not like, oh, I don't know what I haven't seen this or that.

No, I I can tell you, right, that every penny that is sent to the archdiocese sent um is used for a greater purpose, for building up the kingdom, for all of these different ministries.

So I believe in it wholeheartedly, but why?

Because I saw it firsthand.

And I think that that's how and why I communicate that to the parish and the importance of um giving and saying, no, I will give.

And if you're not giving, why are you not giving?

How how is your heart uh in a place where you say, no, I'm not, I'm, I'm just I'm not gonna give.

I'm being asked to give, but I'm just gonna sit this one out.

Yeah.

And I think something you just said was um helpful.

I think because you've seen firsthand the fruit of um the labors of the archdiocese.

And I think, I don't know, I think it's maybe from a culture that there's kind of like a um suspicion kind of, you know, with with giving to things like that.

And I think um it's it's a cultural thing because it's with anyone, I think.

Yeah.

But it's good to be able to to help people to call people on, to call people.

I can tell you that that doesn't happen here, thank God.

Yeah.

Um, our archbishop has been very good about putting people in place that that he trusts and that are very, very competent in ensuring that every penny of donor intent of what that money is being sent there for is being used for the reason for their uh publicizing that it's being used for.

Yeah.

And I think that's wonderful.

But and also a call of like whatever our experience has been or whatever our judgments might be to like reconsider, to be able to step back and look at like, you know, why am I not giving?

And is it right?

And at the end of the day, it's between you and God.

And I think that's something to take a sure, like, to take great confidence in um to be able to give and know that we're giving out of response to Christ first.

And um, and everything else will fall into place.

Because I think the anthropological question, right, uh because there's a deeper th theological thread to all of this.

And that is what does it mean to give God what belongs to him?

And how do I understand that in my day-to-day and how I live my life?

Right.

And I think that the Beatitudes, um, when you're going through it, when you're reading, and and as I said um the Sunday, it it should be a roadmap.

It should be um, this is how I want to live my life.

It's not, it shouldn't be poetry or or some nice language.

It should be something that I I read it, I reflect on, and say, okay, how do I live this?

And and what the Beatitudes are are saying is that I don't self-generate anything.

Everything that I have is a gift from God.

The air that I'm breathing right now, uh, that whatever success, whatever uh, whatever you think is is is is is a blessing in your life.

Well, that came from God.

Right.

And so that's why I really think it's important that we look at our lives, look at our finances, look at our talents, um, our skills, whatever it is, and say, okay, how am I using this for the greater glory of God?

How am I giving back?

I can't, it just can't be give me, give me, give me.

Um, it has to be a well-balanced, structured life where I say, I am so grateful to you, Lord.

I have to give back.

Why?

Because there's someone who is in need, someone that um could use my talent, uh, my time, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, it makes me think of like when in in college when I um came back into the Catholic faith and started really practicing and wanting to be a disciple of Christ and coming across stewardship and just kind of realizing that deeply of like all that I have like is from God, like everything that I have, everything that I have.

Um, and even the call to to tithe and to be generous.

I I really um I struggled with that at first because I was realizing I had such a like a control.

Like I wanted to control and I felt like, you know, especially with money being like a poor college student, being thinking like I didn't have anything gonna give.

But then I really was convicted um in my heart at that time of like, if I don't start giving now when I don't have anything to give, I'm never gonna be generous.

Right.

Like because the thought is like, oh, well, when I, you know, have this amount of money or when I have this amount and I feel comfortable, then I will be generous.

And like that muscle is, you know, produced way earlier.

And it's and it kind of um, I know for me that was like a huge place of just like growth and beginning to tithe my waitress salary.

Like on Sundays, I began to be like, I'm gonna give 10%.

And I gotta tell you, it was like so painful.

It is painful.

I remember being like, oh my gosh, but it was painful because I I God was really calling me to trust him.

And I was like, if I can't trust you with something that's so material, comes and goes.

Yeah.

And and that really that really brought about like a deep conversion and a radical trust to know that like God will provide.

And if I'm generous, he'll be like even more generosity, like will, you know, come my way and to be able to really be free of thinking I have control over or my security being placed in financial things, you know.

And the a lot of disorderedness in my own heart that had to be rightly ordered towards um, towards like a correct stewardship, uh, approach of generous, but knowing like I was blessed to bless others.

And then how did you learn that?

Because I think that you're absolutely right.

A lot of people um have this idea, well, I can't give.

I'm not rich.

I'm struggling, or I I live paid to paycheck to paycheck.

Or so what what was it?

How was who or how did you come to this understanding that no, I I'm being asked to give?

And it's not always money.

I'm people think that it's only money.

We're not only talking about money.

Right.

Time, talent, and treasure.

Well, I think for me, it was kind of um, I was in a place of like really growing in my faith and trying to like reorient my life towards Christ first and not like myself.

I was living very much like pursuing my own things and like Jesus on the side and beginning to put him in the at the center.

Um, and so really looking at like time, talent, and treasure, being able to say, like, okay, well, um, I was realizing that you can actually track my life well by looking at my bank account and what I do with my credit.

You're like, I was actually realizing, like, you could tell what type of person I am by looking at my credit card statement.

And I was like, oh my gosh.

So kind of some of those realizations that at first I was like a little kind of ashamed about being able to be like, okay, well, I want that to reflect that I'm a Christian.

And I want that to reflect like that I do put Christ first and beginning to um also just let go of really just like control, thinking my security was found in in money.

Um, and just realizing that that comes and goes, but how can I work on growing in that virtue of generosity to know that whether I have a little bit to give or a lot, like it belongs to God first, and I'm and there's a joy in being able to contribute and knowing and that happens.

I and I've seen it a hundred times.

Uh when a person gets to that point and they start to give, there's a joy.

This this just overwhelming joy of saying, I'm doing something, I'm contributing.

I'm again, like I mentioned in the ominous, it's not the amount, it's the heart.

It's the heart.

Because what we give, whether it's our time, our attention, resources, energy, whatever that is, it reveals something important.

It reveals what are what we fear losing or what we believe sustains us.

Um, and so there's that dynamic of uh when we begin to really understand stewardship.

But also, too, um, there's a the whole theological undercurrent where it says God is important but not essential.

Yeah.

Yeah, is he important?

And I I want to give something, but or maybe I will one day.

But um, and that's the danger, I think.

And that's where I think the beatitudes really, really help us if we understand what the beatitudes are calling us to.

Yeah, and even beatitude, like the attitude we should have, the disposition of heart we need to take on.

So, like blessed are the meek, blessed are the peacemakers.

So, all those different things being about the heart first, not necessarily about the action right away.

It's about the heart.

Yeah.

Um, and I think when we look at um the call to be good stewards, it's all of those things are after the heart.

I mean, and I experienced that deeply, especially at that time of of my life, being able to really allow the Lord to transform my heart so I could be free to want to love him through my time, my talent, and my treasure, and not be thinking like, oh, but what about me or am I gonna be left behind?

But being confident that God was gonna provide and that if, you know, prayerfully discerning what I can give and then finding the joy and contributing to this mission of Christ.

And I remember when I first um had like my first salary, that was one I was so excited to do, like, I'm gonna give 10%, you know.

And I was like, you know, and here I was, like, you know, making pennies.

But I I was looked forward to that.

I was like, okay, like I can write a check that's kind of larger than I've ever, you know, like it was cool.

And I think um that's been like a a gift of the Holy Spirit, really, to be generous and also to have that knowledge that what I do does matter.

Like what I give does does make a difference in the lives of others.

Yeah.

And I think what I would say is that it needs to expand beyond just money.

I think people see that as just money because you're gonna you're gonna give glory to God by the way that you you dedicate time for prayer.

The dedicated the time that you come to mass, and it's where it's just not, oh, this is one thing that I just do on Sunday, where you come and you really truly enjoy and you're active participation in the mass, and you're re you're listening to the readings and you're listening to the homily, and you're really making it a point that this is important, and it's not just something I check off my list.

And also, too, how how do I treat my family?

Am I really um helping informing my family in the ways of the faith, uh, service?

What what service projects am I doing?

Am I uh available to others?

All of those things is is stewardship.

This is this is what builds up the kingdom of God, right?

And because I think at the end of the day, what God wants is is what cost you because discipleship will always cost you something.

Anything in life, anything in in your world that means something to you will cost you.

Yeah.

And and and and I stewardship has to be that.

We have to see that in in the way we we think and process and we respond to God calling us to be generous.

And I think that sounds scary where it's like something cost us, but that's the paradox of the gospel, is like when you give away, when you surrender, you receive.

It's like this dynamic of dying to rise.

Right.

And um, but really trusting that that is like what happens, that as we give of ourselves, that the Lord fills in and gives even more.

Um, but stewardship is definitely a it's a way of life to be able to see all things as a gift from God.

Um, and then that we're not owed anything, but all is gift.

And so how do I um be generous, but also like responsible with the gifts that God's given me?

So making time for prayer, making time to love my family, um, making time to serve the poor, um, and to go beyond, you know, myself for others.

And I think an important element to what you just said too is, and you're good about this, is that giving is a sign of belonging.

I don't just give in a vacuum, right?

And so it's part of I belong to the body of Christ, but I belong to a bigger community.

And this is, and I'm joyful to be able to contribute to the better man or to the building up of the kingdom of this community that I belong to.

That's one of the reasons why I mention St.

Paul and this remarkable thing that he does.

It's just unheard of where he goes and he asks all of these Christian communities that he founded, and he says, Listen, the church in Jerusalem is suffering.

These people are having our persecution, famine, um, a real hard time.

And we need to step up and send money over to Jerusalem to help these folks who are struggling.

And and you see there that it's unheard of.

And Paul is asking people that are poor.

These people, these are poor communities that he just founded.

And what are they doing?

They're saying, no, this is important.

We all belong, we are all one.

We belong to the same body of Christ.

And and I I would have to say that anyone in that that ancient time that is is listening to or or being asked from Paul to give, what was going through their mind and how did they feel?

And and I think that they would have felt good and in a new way and in a new sense.

Think about when um we have a hurricane here or something, and and and people will come together in a very good way.

I mean, though that's one of the beautiful things of a storm or a tragedy that you there is this beautiful side of people at all costs are saying, I want to be involved, I want to help.

And and I think that that's what the Lord is saying is that you may in your parish or in your life, uh, if things are stable, things are good, but there's other people that are suffering or there's other programs that need help.

Why?

Because we're being able to attend to or to address some of the issues, um, even here in South Florida, that need help.

And everything needs money to uh to kind of work and and sustain itself.

Um so again, just to recap that, it it's it's it's a sign of belonging.

It's it's we are part of this universal church, this one body, this we have this uh shared responsibility, or uh it's a a mutual sacrifice among all of us.

Yeah, and the universality of that is so beautiful because there's ways that you can go in and see that.

Um, and also I think of like mission trips, like you can give of your time, talent, treasure, you know, and so we can give of um all the things that help us know who we are.

Like we're able to give financially, we're able to serve with our hands.

Um, and we're also able to look at like even our talents are not, they don't belong to us.

And I love that part of it.

I like what you're saying there because I think that that's what Paul was telling these communities.

He was saying to them, I I want you to participate in this suffering.

You're not it, and it's and it's very easy to write a check, right?

Or or to give a hundred bucks or whatever it is.

Um but there's something to stewardship in the sense that I'm united to this suffering, I'm united to this belonging.

Um, where now it feels like a family.

We are brothers and sisters.

And that care for one another is what you know Jesus asks of us, you know, that they know each other that way they know we're Christian by the way that we love and serve.

And it's not just about like my own little bubble, but it goes beyond to like the needs of the local needs and the world's needs.

Um you're right, because I think that modern Christians often believe that uh faith is something private.

I've talked about this a lot, uh this Jesus in me spirituality, or that um generosity is optional.

Oh, the church has church has a lot of money, or someone else will give.

I don't need to give, or um or commitment is conditional.

Uh be careful.

Yeah, and and the church also respects like our freedom.

And I love that there's not like an amount that the church says you have to give.

Like the church says, like, we should all, you know, be generous according to your state in life.

And I think that makes it a little harder too, because the church is saying, like, I'm depending on you to perfectly discern like where you're at and how God is asking you to respond.

So I love that tension there of like the church respects our freedom, but also it puts the responsibility in us to be active in our discernment and of thinking beyond just ourselves in our own family.

Well, I love what you said because faith is relational, right?

It's not transactional.

It's this encounter with a person.

And uh if if we understand that my faith is in Jesus Christ, where it is so tangible, so concrete in this person, right, then it's not transactional.

Oh, here's a hundred dollars, or you know, here's some spare change, let me give this to you.

Um, it takes on a whole meaning of when we're spending our time, talent, and treasure.

Yeah.

I also think about like in my own life, I feel like in different moments and struggling with um kind of generosity, serving the poor, like wakes me up, you know.

Right.

I think going and getting my hands dirty, like a soup kitchen or even like a nursing home, kind of um being able to love the poor like hands-on, um, kind of like awakens that within me of like call to serve and be generous, but also to remember that these are considered family.

Like these are, they shouldn't be the poor shouldn't be like an afterthought of like, oh yeah, there might be, but they should be part of like how we think about our life and how we think about what we can do with our time, talent, and treasure.

Um, that yes, like my talent could be to build up an amazing, you know, worldly success in this way, but also like, how can I build up the kingdom?

Like being able to think about both of those things as Christians.

Exactly right.

And and if you have that mentality that, well, I'll just I'll give you whatever's left over, or if if it's an afterthought, or here's some of my spare change, if if that's your mode of operating, uh, of that first point of departure for you, then leftover giving what it it turns out to be is reactive, it's emotional, uh, it's convenient, it's um uh fear-driven.

And so it's not like I mentioned in the hopoly, is where I'm giving, and then now I because I'm giving it I'm making a very clear statement that I trust you, Lord.

I don't know what's coming down the road.

Um, I love you, I want to serve you.

And so I'm gonna look at what my salary is, I'm gonna look at what uh my income is and be able to give accordingly.

There I'm being asked to give, or or even uh how are you giving your time?

How are you, even to your to that your parent who you haven't seen in a while, or the phone call that you need to make, or uh whatever it is, but it's stewardship is far more than just writing a check or thinking that, oh, let me help this cause.

It needs to be really, really expanded because um first fruit giving needs to be very intentional, very thought out, very planned.

It needs to be sacrificial, right?

Um it needs to be prayerful.

Are you you need to be able to discern uh prayerfully, okay?

All right, Lord, I wanna, I wanna serve you, I wanna to love you and uh do it within the confines of what you're able to and not reckless, but it there's a whole process of how do you get to that um place of where you're giving.

And then also it it just builds trust.

I trust you, Lord, here you go.

And something that I've told a lot of people is that you will never, ever be able to outdo God's generosity.

If you think you can come and give a check and you're like, oh man, I just gave this all this money and or I just spent all that, you will never be able to outdo his generosity where God will say, Okay, you gave them out, let me show you some more, let me show you what generosity looks like.

Because I've seen it a hundredfold.

Like people will give money or they will make a sack of a true sacrificial gift, they get it back tenfold from God.

Just an example.

I remember I we were there was a prisoner who was new, and and he said, you know, I have never really given sacrificially, I've never really believed in it.

I've never, I've been fear-based the way that I give.

And and so I went out on a limb.

This is he's telling me after this, he's like, I went out on a limb and I gave a big check this year.

Not even three weeks later, a contract that I had been wanting that I thought I was never gonna get fell on my lap.

And it was like three or four times worth more than I was like, see, you can't outdo God's generosity.

And stories like that I've heard so many times.

And I'm sure you've heard them too.

No, absolutely.

And I think also um that disposition of like, I'm blessed to bless others, like being on the lookout.

I think that's part of also the excitement of tithing and just being a good steward is like now that like you're on the lookout for like, okay, Lord, how can I serve you?

Yeah.

How can I, how can I be generous?

Right.

Instead of again the fear-based, which is like, oh, I don't know if I let me recalculate and see if I have enough for like, I don't know, there's just a different um mentality altogether.

Um, and I'd like your example, Father, of um, that sometimes we have the mentality of, I'll give you my spare change.

Um, and I remember again, kind of when I was going through this time in college, um, that I was going through a drive-thru because I saw someone homeless on the side.

And I was like, okay, I'm gonna give them food.

And I remember I was ordering, and it's at like at McDonald's, and I was like, okay, what's on the dollar menu?

And then in my heart, I remember like this nudge of like, you wouldn't eat that yourself.

I was like, wow, like, okay, what would I order?

And so I ordered what I would eat, which I would not eat now.

But um, but and then I gave that to the homeless man on the side of the street, being able to, you know, he's asking for food.

So I gave him food.

And it just changed this shift in my own heart of like, did it feel good?

It did.

It felt good and also felt like, you know, if I was him, like I would want people to see my dignity and also like, yeah, give me something to eat, but give me something that maybe you'll you would eat too.

I don't know.

There was something that shifted in me.

Yeah, because I one of the questions that I would ask the person, I was like, why does generosity heal the heart?

And it does heal the heart.

It does, it heals us of a lot of things because generosity loosens that fear that we have.

It um also, too, something really important, it reorders our desires.

Yeah.

And sometimes our displaced or uh desires um some of the things that we think are important or the priorities that we set that are not really um shouldn't be at that very top of the list.

It also trains our heart to trust, trust in a deep, deep way.

Absolutely.

I mean, especially when you grow up in a culture that says that places security and and money, like you know, there's it's a half truth, you know, there's a little bit of but the ultimate security of your welfare is in God's hands and being able to kind of like loosen the grip a little bit to really place a trust in in the Lord being Lord of life and Lord of finances, Lord of talent, um, and really that disposition of like all things come from God first, and how do I respond in gratitude?

And do you think that someone who doesn't give or really is refusing to think about or practice stewardship, is it something that um they keep God at the margins, would you think?

Or maybe it's yeah, God is not a priority in their life, or maybe again it's like what we've been talking about.

It's not a mix of control and I think it's a control thing.

At least my my control would be control.

And then also I think a lot of times our own family history has some influence on like how much we grip onto money for security.

Right.

You know, so I think there's a lot of you know, woundedness, because I look at even my own heart of like what was changed was really the shift of like, you know, of of looking at I had a an issue with money and being honest about like wow, like I'm really clinging on to this.

Why?

Yeah.

A lot of it's because of you know how I was raised and different things.

And right.

So like this experience of just like healing, I think in this area for me was really freeing.

So I think my encouragement for anyone struggling with giving is is really being honest with like why, why not?

And like, what's the deeper fear that's motivating or that's protecting you?

Yeah, because at the end of the day, God does not need our money.

Well, that's the funny part, right?

Where it's like so there's something that heals us.

So it's one of those like kind of commands of Christ that at first is like hard, but then it's not for his good.

It's for our good.

You know, it's there's something that changes us when we follow this invitation to be generous.

Again, I I think we mentioned earlier it's it's it's a very healing thing.

I like the the example you gave from giving food to the homeless guy.

It could be very healing.

And I think it sets the person on the right track again because it feels good.

And so we want to keep doing it again.

And hopefully it's it's a it's a change of heart, a change of mindset um to be generous and to to give where we're being asked to give.

Definitely.

And not to be so hard or closed off, right?

Yeah.

And so perfect time as we end our time today.

Um I know that was quick.

Um, Lent is coming up.

So, like we mentioned at the start of our time, start thinking about what you might be doing for Lent.

And I think our conversation today of talking about stewardship is a great um way to think about how can I be more generous this Lent and what ways can that look?

And you click on the Yeah.

And I would say, I would say is uh look at your life, your faith life, and say, how would my faith look differently if I was a little bit more generous?

Yeah.

With my time, talent, and treasure.

I would say this week, and I and as I think you're right, uh right before Lent to meditate a little bit on stewardship.

What does it mean in your life?

Are you um do you trust?

Are you giving?

Are you going beyond and saying, this is important?

I'm being asked to give.

And how did how can giving uh heal some of these broken wounds in my life?

Because you're right.

I think we we become attached to material or things that we think and we can control.

So wonderful.

I've enjoyed this conversation, Father.

So thank you for your time.

Thank you to those who are listening.

Um, join us on Sundays, and sanagustinchurch.org is our website, and we'll see you next week.

Thanks a lot, Michelle.

Have a good one.