Podcast | Faith When God Seems Silent | (Episode 238)

Welcome to Heart of a Homily Podcast.

I'm your host, Michelle Lopez, and I'm here with Father Rigoa.

How are you doing, Father?

Well, Michelle, in the heat of it, school has started, university started, lots of uh moving parts, but feeling blessed.

It's uh it's good to be busy.

It is.

It's a busy and like thriving time.

I feel like we're so busy because things are thriving.

Um but do you see the excitement of all of these new students and freshmen and even on campus uh here at St.

Augustine?

It's it's it's just a strange thing that when school's back in session, even the parents get back in sessions and grandparents also too.

There's there's just a lot of uh movement, and it it's it's clear that summer's over and people are back to their uh to their routine and wanting to get serious about the fate.

So lots going on.

It's beautiful.

It's awesome.

It's so beautiful.

And I'm really grateful for the opportunity to chat about your Humli from this past weekend because you kind of like start us off of the bang, I want to say.

Like it was so beautiful, has so many layers to it, Father.

And I think, I mean, like what a gift and in the busyness of everything going on.

Like, I feel like it was such an invitation to ask great questions about where we where we are and where we want to head in this journey in the fall kind of semester, fall time of the year.

So really excited to get into it today.

We're reading from the Gospel of Matthew 15.

So we'll go ahead and read the gospel to start us off here.

At that time, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyree in Sodom, and behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, Have pity on me, Lord, son of David.

My daughter is tormented by a demon.

But Jesus did not say a word and answer to her.

Jesus' disciples came and asked him, Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us.

He said in reply, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But the woman came and did him homage, saying, Lord, help me.

He said in reply, It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs.

She said, Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters.

Then Jesus said to her in reply, O woman, great is your faith, let it be done for you as you wish.

And the woman's daughter was healed from that hour.

So beautiful gospel here.

And um, Father, I think this is also a gospel that is um it's not easy to understand like what's going on because of like the where they are in that region, also what type of woman this is, what she's at, like Jesus' response, his lack of response.

There's so many layers to this that um I was really you know grateful for kind of the invitation to go a little bit deeper into each of them.

Yeah, you know, it's it's fascinating to me how Matthew goes a little further.

Um, because if you compare it to or put it in a parallel toll, Saint Mark, Saint Mark is the one that uses serophonician woman, but Matthew goes further back and calls her a Canaanite woman, and I really believe that that was intentional because he wanted to stress um how outside this woman was, right?

Because it it evokes this uh Israel's ancient enemies and and peoples that inhabited a land uh where it was separate from Israel, right?

And so he's not simply giving her uh an address, this is where she's from, but he's it's almost like this theological geography.

She is clearly an outsider.

Um and then there's this irony, right?

That the outsider Jesus, he he she recognizes him as Lord, son of David, and many of the people in Israel are still trying to figure out well, who is Jesus?

Why is this woman from the outside of Israel addressing him with this very profound uh Jewish uh messianic title?

Um it's uh you put all of this together, like when you're studying or maybe doing a Lexia Divina or deep diving into your style Bible studies, but uh Matthew isn't isn't just telling us where she's from.

He's he's almost telling us how far away she's supposed to be.

You know, sometimes a person standing furthest outside the the religious circle sees Jesus or can see Jesus more clearly than people that are are standing closer on the inside.

We can become blind and we can take a lot of things for for granted.

Um but uh can familiar familiarity with religion actually make us less astonished um by Jesus?

We're so familiar that it's just almost like when we read these gospels that we hear at all times, and maybe we've done Bible studies, and it's like, well we miss these little things, right?

Um so yeah, that I think that that from the very onset was an important point that I wanted to drive home.

That this is an outsider, and she recognizes the Lord right away.

And what's fascinating to me is that she does not give up, she recognizes him and she is gonna get to him, and she will not take no for an answer, um, which is pretty bold.

Yeah, and I think that's so interesting because I also think about um even even that's a little uncomfortable, where it's like the one that seems furthest from Jesus is the one that's able to name him as Lord first.

Like that's like an uncomfortable statement in some sense, you know.

But also it makes me think about um, I don't know, an invitation for us to step back and remember that like all human hearts are made for God, made for Christ.

And and so to never put someone outside of the ability for God to touch them, you know.

And um, I think this woman is a great example of um, yeah, that Jesus knows everyone and especially those that seem to be outside of what the realms of what grace could do and touch.

The ones that we think are on the outside, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And a key part of um your homily, father, and kind of where it went was talking about when when God seems silent, you know, um, that silence is not the same thing as God's absence.

Um, one of your quotes here was, you know, do not confuse silence with absence.

Do not confuse delay with abandonment.

Would love for you to share a little bit more about that because that's a big, it's an easy thing to do to think because we don't hear something right away or in the way that we thought that there's um absence or abandonment.

Well, I think, you know, she comes to him and and she says, Please, my daughter is tormented by a demon.

And I think as I mentioned homily, the most disturbing sentence in that gospel is but he did not say a word to answer her.

Um he just stayed quiet.

And if you think about this woman, she was probably waiting for an answer.

She would, did you hear me?

Or I guess you're not gonna say anything.

And this is important because we instinctively interpret silence as rejection.

Um but the narrative does not end there, right?

If we if we keep reading the story, Jesus' silence becomes the setting in which her faith is progressively revealed, and so um she keeps challenging it, she keeps she doesn't back down.

And I I think that there's a deep spiritual tradition here, uh, because if we look at the lives of the saints, we read about their lives, and it it describes repeatedly that there are periods in in their faith journey where God felt absent.

Um, not necessarily because God was withdrawn, but because faith is being purified of its dependence upon uh this need to always have this the presence of Jesus or or consolation, right?

Because you can distinguish God's presence from our own perception of God's presence.

Um and that's enormously important, pastorally, because I I think that one of the most dangerous spiritual mistakes is assuming that because I I can't feel God, God must not be there.

God doesn't want to deal with me, God is abandoning me, God is God's silence and God's absence are um not the same thing, and that's what we gotta understand.

And as you begin to uh mature in your faith, eventually it has to survive the the disappearance of this constant spiritual reassurance.

Um and then and that's what I was trying to to the point that I was trying to make too is that where is Jesus when all of this is happening, right?

Because Jesus had already traveled outside of Israel, he was in her space, her country.

And I think that an important point is that while we can be, where are you, where are you, where are you, haven't answered me, I don't feel your presence.

This narrative, this this story teaches us that he was already not speaking with her his mouth, but he was speaking with his feet.

He had already moved towards her.

That while she's asking, where are you, God, or we are asking God, the gospel is quietly revealing to us that Jesus had already crossed the border to find her and have an encounter with her.

Um but it's it's uh it's not easy, and I get it, because when you're going through a very difficult situation when you are praying to God and and your answer, your prayers don't seem to be answered, and and you feel this desert experience, it's heartbreaking, it is crushing to the bone um because you feel all alone, but it's where we really have to go back to basics and learn our theology, learn our our spirituality in the sense that it's not because he's abandoning us, it's because he works on a different timetable and God's ways are not our ways.

Because we, in a sense, even in this situation, we want to be able to control all the different narratives, right?

And control every situation.

So when we don't have that control, then we assume the very worst.

Absolutely.

And I think I I love that um example of like, although not with words, but with his feet, he was he was walking.

And I and I feel like I don't know, in my own faith journey, there's been times of actually what comes to mind is um, you know, like the what is it, the sand, the feet, the footprints thing, you know, like when we that's a very common like way of seeing that, like when you feel like there's only one set of footprints, it's Jesus's because he's carrying you.

It's just kind of like that knowledge that like God is present and working, even if we don't see it.

And but we have to ask him to have the eyes to see it.

But knowing that he's never um, he must be doing something that I cannot see.

So kind of like having the faith to say that instead of I think the abandonment kind of pull, which is, oh, God must not care about me or he must must not be here, but stepping back and seeing the eyes of the reality of the faith of the faith that God must be doing something I can't see.

Um I feel like that kind of moves us into um an important part of this gospel and what the woman does, which you know, so if we if God's silence isn't doesn't necessarily mean that he's he's absent, but what we do while we're waiting.

And I think this woman gives such a powerful example of like in that weight of you know, Jesus not responding yet, like she doesn't leave.

She stays the course and waits.

And I think that's such a um invitation to us to remain, and that's really where you went with your homily father, too, is really the invitation of not disappearing because we feel like God, we can't feel him anymore.

Well, you know, even in uh like you're saying, you remain, even with this deep sense of rejection.

Because if you hear Jesus saying, if you come to him right with this petition and he says, Well, I'm not gonna take that petition and throw it to the dogs, I'm not gonna waste that petition.

You know, he comes, I came for to to to minister to the house of Israel, so I can't take the food and throw it to the dogs, that's hard.

But I if we do a deep dive on that, we we understand that one is that we really gotta truly understand the priority of Jesus' mission to Israel.

And in Matthew's gospel, he maintains that order very clearly.

When we study Matthew's gospel, it's Israel first, then the nations.

Um but then later, of course, if when when we go to the very end of Matthew's gospel, we see that what does Christ do?

He he commands the disciples, he says, go out and make disciples of all nations.

So what I love about this gospel is that that there's this this encounter anticipates where Matthew's entire gospel is going.

There has to be this gradual um to where we there the uh a beginning, a middle, and then an end.

And you see that clearly in Matthew's gospel.

But I but I think what what is the most remarkable of this whole gospel too is how extraordinary her response, right?

That even the dogs eat from the scrap of the master's table, that what what the scraps that fall from the master's table.

Uh she doesn't argue that she doesn't deserve a place at the table, she doesn't argue that, but she stakes everything on the abundance, the goodness that she believes that Jesus can do for her.

I think that distinction is beautiful, right?

Because she doesn't she doesn't accept it.

She says she she really believes in him and in the goodness that he has that could be available to her.

Because her argument is not I deserve more, right?

Her argument is you're so good that even the that that goodness overflows and it is enough.

I I I know that that goodness that overflows from you that I've been seeing, and everybody's attesting to, and the crowds and all the people that you're attracting.

I know that that goodness that comes out of you can save my daughter.

But she doesn't have great faith because she thinks highly of herself.

No, she has great faith because she thinks enormously of the goodness of Jesus.

She thinks she knows who Jesus is.

Right.

Yeah.

So in in in the homily, when I was starting, pride approaches God carrying evidence, right?

Lord, I've been very good.

I go to mass, I do everything that I'm supposed to be doing, I've been faithful to you.

I I, you know, I don't I don't give in to this, I don't do that.

Lord, you owe me because I've been good.

I've sacrificed a lot.

Why can't you do this for me?

And what does faith say?

Faith says, No, I approach God with empty hands.

I approach God because I know that I got I need God every step of the way.

Father, even that example of kind of like the pride versus uh like a humble disposition.

Um, I think probably everyone in the pews this weekend could relate to that.

Because I think that's you know, sometimes when you're going to mass something or you get into like this checkbox mentality of like, okay, well, I'm doing all the things.

Um, and and really I think your invitation to have a humble disposal disposition was um was challenging, was challenging um because it really is surrendering and letting Jesus be savior.

Because we live in a world where, you know, we feel like we can kind of save ourselves.

Um, but this woman knows that it is only Jesus that can save her daughter and and at the end of the day, save her as well.

Um, but I think that's uh you're highlighting something that is a my I guess my question would be like, how do you begin to switch that prayer?

If you kind of catch yourself kind of being the one negotiating with God or being able to be like, okay, Lord, well, remember, like, you know, I fast here or I've prayed here, or I'm not as bad as I used to be.

Like, what's a way to kind of switch it back?

You know, I think that this opens up to how do we understand grace?

How do we understand God's grace, right?

Um, because Christianity is not fundamentally the story of deserving God's favor.

Um, it's a story of receiving what we could never earn on our own.

And if we get to a place where we can understand that, my whole life changes.

My perspective, how I approach God, how I see things, how do I uh wait for for the wait on the Lord and how I trust the Lord?

It's completely different, right?

Yeah.

So, Father, kind of um, one of your main points that you spoke about in your homily was really look looking at the power of intercession, because um, this woman in the gospel was not asking for something for herself.

Um, but you really focus, and I I think for maybe many people opened up this um new reality of intercession.

Um, so we'd love to hear kind of where that was coming from and what was on your mind when you kind of went in that direction, and um, especially for those that might have not really heard or maybe believed in the power of intercession.

Well, you know, I think that something that I've said a lot, I've mentioned this in prayer groups, and we have to get past this, and this under we have to understand that prayers are not empty words.

And if you look at how this mother who prays across a distance, what does that mean, right?

So, because in this gospel, when we're going through it, the daughter's this invisible character.

Um, we don't really know much about her.

She could be an adult child, she could be a little girl, she could be, we don't know.

Um, the this daughter never speaks, she never approaches Jesus.

I don't think she knows Jesus.

Um, as far as we know, she maybe have never even had any contact with Jesus.

Um, but here we know what we know that the mother is standing right before Christ, and I think that that's an extraordinary image that we can ingrain in our hearts and our minds, this image of standing right in front of Christ, and and that that's what intercessory prayer is.

Um, because a spouse praying for a spouse, a grandmother praying for grandchildren, some uh someone's praying for a friend trapped in addiction, parents whose um adult children have uh no don't no longer practice a faith, or maybe the person you love may be unwilling or unable to pray right now, they're sick or or whatever it is, but you can still bring that person before Christ.

See, there are people who will arrive before Jesus because somebody else refused to stop carrying their name into prayer.

I believe that 100%.

I can place somebody before Christ, even when I cannot place myself beside them.

I mean, I I've had right now, there's a situation where we have some prisoners who uh are on vacation and have had a tragic accident, and I got the phone call early this morning.

I I can't stop thinking about it.

But I have been all day praying for these people, and I can't be there where they are, it's very far away, but I want to be there with them through my prayers.

Um because intercession, what does intercession mean?

Intercession means I can place someone before Christ even when I cannot be there myself beside them.

Prayers can enter rooms that you cannot.

A dorm room, God knows.

I've talked to some we've been talking to parents, they're going back home and they're like terrified.

What is for all these parents that have dropped off their freshmen?

And I wanted to talk to the freshmen and say, don't be uh don't be crazy these first couple of weeks, because uh some of them are already going off the handle.

Why are you out in at at in Coconut Grove at one in the morning?

I get it, you're from Chicago.

And you're like Miami, the allure, the beauty, but slowly don't overdo this.

So I think that prayer, uh, the parents are leaving here and they can't go all to all these different places where their kids are going.

They can't enter a dorm, they can't go into a hospital room, uh, even operating rooms, courtrooms.

Um certainly they can they can't be with the child when they're two o'clock in the morning and they're scrolling images that shouldn't be looking at, right?

Places that people can't go.

And also to interior struggles that someone else can't see.

And um, and that that's why intercessory prayer is so important.

Yeah, and I think it's such an invitation to kind of look at, you know, are we are we praying with this faith?

Because what you're sharing, Father, is like a deep faith and knowing that prayer works, prayer matters, it it does things, you know, and um, and that God is at work and to really anchor ourselves in our in a life of prayer and also intercession.

Um, and I think it's such a beautiful time to be able to, yeah, really know that our prayers, um, our prayers matter.

I think about the um the group we have with New Catholic, the praying parents, you know, it's it's kind of funny, you know, they're leaving after college and the only thing that we can offer them, which is the most powerful thing that we believe, right?

We look at our patron, St.

Monica, St.

Augustine, like the power of prayer works and to really um, yeah, pray with faith and know that the Lord is at work and our prayers matter.

And hopefully, I know for myself, praying for particular things or situations that I can't control, or are people that are are distant or like praying for them has always given me this great like peace and confidence in the Lord's power, like knowing that Lord, I am bringing them before you, even if they can't bring themselves here, and really just like trusting that that is where the Lord is at work.

Yeah, going off of that, it it just reminds me of this woman's stubborn refusal to separate herself from Jesus.

Okay, um because faith isn't gonna be, I understand.

Faith is sometimes simply I don't understand, but I'm staying right here next to you.

I wanna be right in front of you, Jesus.

Um because when something stops making sense, a lot of times we have this um we want to take off.

We don't want to leave, we want to leave, we don't want to stick around.

And if you think about it, if if someone disappoints you, uh an institution disappoints you, uh if your prayer becomes dry, you stop praying, or you leave, or even even at mass, if mass becomes too difficult in the sense that um maybe you don't understand what the priest is saying, or you're in an area where uh you're not getting much from you gotta stick with it because great faith is not having no questions, no, great faith is knowing where to take your questions, right?

One of the the things is that she she doesn't understand Jesus' silence, but she refuses to interpret what she does not understand as reason to leave him, she is right there in front of him, and and I think that one of the greatest acts of faith is simply refusing to walk away.

And I tell that to a lot of people.

I know you're struggling, I know you're heartbroken, I know it's very difficult.

Stick with it.

This is not the time to abandon your faith.

This is not the time to walk away from Jesus.

I know that your life is hard right now.

You're going through a very difficult time.

I know you feel disappointed, I know that you feel that God is not listening to you.

This is not the moment to walk away.

We gotta, you know, you we gotta say what Peter said in John 6, Master, to whom shall we go?

Right?

Because Peter doesn't say, Lord, everything you just said makes perfect sense.

He doesn't say that.

He essentially he says, I don't know where else to go.

And I think that that's mature faith.

Um, because we're gonna have those uh difficult experiences where we we don't have anything to bargain with.

We are it's it's we're scraping the barrel, and that's where you're gonna have to have that um that structure, that discipline, that routine of saying, Oh, I'm sticking with it.

I am gonna be here until I can sense something, or I feel you, or I I feel some peace.

But that's not the time to walk away.

That's so beautiful and very powerful and also very challenging.

But I think even you naming that father as challenging, but really speaking to um everyone and encouraging them, like that's when you stick with and and and stay with, like this woman did.

And I it's marvelous to know the ending of this moment, right?

Like in the right timing, this woman receives healing, right?

She asks for crumbs, but she receives this miraculous healing that transforms um, you know, her daughter's situation and the whole of her life, like from there.

Um, and I loved how at the end you kind of connected it to the Eucharist and really the invitation for us to to come forward and realize that God Christ is giving us Himself something even beyond what we could ever ask for.

So beautiful, Michelle.

And it's how we are able to bring it back to the Eucharist because you're right, this woman asks for crumbs.

Christ gives us himself.

Um, if you think about it, the gospel begins with this woman standing outside, asking whether there might be something left for her.

Well, the Eucharist ends with Christ saying, take and eat.

Um because Christianity cannot ultimately be reduced to what Jesus can do for me all the time.

And we're we're and I'm guilty of this.

I think a lot of us are guilty of this is this um wanting to take, take, take, take constantly from Jesus.

Lord, I need this.

I I I I'm in this.

Uh can you resolve this?

Can you send me this?

Can you help me with the it's this constant wanting to take, take from the Lord?

Um and I think that the miracle can solve a problem because Christ gives us Himself.

Um I don't know.

I it it's a beautiful image of Jesus giving us Himself in the Eucharist.

This woman asked for scraps, and we every Sunday, if you go to daily mass, every day, we don't get scraps, we get all of it.

And he he's placed right in our hands, and that that is just Lord, I I how much you love us, and if we only understood that we're receiving him completely, totally.

Um we just have to trust and and and walk.

And because as I mentioned earlier, it's it's not on our timetable.

There's a plan.

We just have to be patient and and trust that he's got us, which he does.

It's beautiful.

It reminds me of a of like a I remember intentionally kind of in my in my walk.

I still for particular things, I started changing my prayer to be more like, Jesus, whether or not you answer this prayer, I'm never gonna leave you.

And I remember like there's there being like this shift, kind of like this woman in the gospel of um, like giving my request and my re my my presence was not based on whether or not I was answered.

It was kind of like a shift to be like, Lord, whether or not you answer this, like I want you to, but like I know, like I'm never gonna, I'm here, like I'm with you.

Like, and really just knowing that that that shift in our heart brings like that confidence and peace and allowing God to be God and to do his marvelous work.

Um, and ultimately knowing, especially from the example of the Eucharist, that he's already given us everything.

And crumbs are not it, but himself totally.

Um, and that's the place where we need to go to be fed and to be um allow our faith to be increased, to move closer to him there, even if we don't feel it.

Exactly.

And hopefully, ultimately, it's about I need you, I never want to leave you.

Um because maybe great faith begins when I stop asking whether Jesus will give me enough reason to stay.

If he can only do this, or if I only can see this, if I well, then then there's the reason to stay.

No, maybe great faith begins when I can finally realize that there's nowhere else I would rather be.

And I that's what I wanted everybody to walk away with um this Sunday.

I can't leave it up to my own doing.

It is always, always gonna have to be it go back to where else am I gonna go?

I don't want to go anywhere else.

I want to trust you and I just want to love you and be there and nowhere else.

Well, thank you, Father, for this conversation.

As we wrap up, um, yes, any any closing thoughts you'd like to share or invitation to our um guest um listening to us to take it home with them?

Well, I would just say that go back through this gospel and see the different stages and see how this woman approached uh Jesus even with more intensity.

She wouldn't take no for an answer.

She stuck right in there, and I think that there's a lot of people right now that need to hear this because they are going through difficult moments in their life.

And I would say to you, don't give up, don't walk away, don't leave him.

You are loved, and he wants to love on you.

He just wants you to trust him because there is a wonderful.

Well, thank you all for tuning in for our podcast this week.

Thank you, Father, for um sharing and allowing us to go deeper into these different layers of the gospel.

It's been a joy and uh an invitation to more.

So thank you.

All right, God bless you.