Podcast | Fire In The Bones | (Episode 254)

Hello and welcome to the Heart of the Homily Podcast.

My name is Michelle Lopez, and I'm here with Father Vigova, our pastor.

How's it going, Michelle?

How is it going?

We're on the road.

We are in Poland.

You know, just a second ago, I was like gonna say hello in Poland, but I I Polish, I have no idea.

I'm not there yet.

I just arrived and I haven't picked up on any Polish uh, you know.

Well, you would say uh if you're greeting a priest or a religious, you would say Borze.

Wow.

Um, which is so cool because you greet a priest or religious differently than just uh any other person, or even faithful Catholics among themselves would greet themselves as uh instead of the gin dobre, which is good morning, or um and it's so beautiful because you could already being here and I've always been amazed by Poland, how Catholic it is, and how deep rooted there this Catholic culture is in in these people.

But even the way they greet people.

That's beautiful, is is different, very unique.

So it's a great culture, like a culture Catholic culture, but with like we're filled with reverence and yeah acknowledging those things.

That's cool.

Okay, you're gonna have to teach me that later.

It's gonna be hard for me.

I'll I'll teach you.

But um one of the things that I I I love about this pilgrimage is that a lot, I would say 90%, maybe even 95% of those who are with us have never been here before.

Like you, you've never been here before.

I've never been here.

And it just to see people who have never been somewhere, because we you do pilgrimages with people and they're like, oh, I've been there.

Oh, I've seen that.

But here, everything is fresh, right?

It's fresh and it's foreign.

I mean, the language is so different than like Italian or Spanish, of course.

Like, so I'm looking at the signs and being like, oh gosh, I'm I know nothing.

No clue.

I'm gonna rely on that GPS majorly and translation app.

Um, so but very exciting.

It's very exciting.

So cool.

And um, okay, well, we're hopping into our podcast um today, looking at yesterday's gospel and homily.

So, Father, I'm gonna begin by reading the gospel.

It's from Matthew 16, 21 to 27.

Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly, from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed on the third day and be raised.

Then Peter took Jesus aside and began to rebuke him.

God forbid, Lord, no such thing shall ever happen to you.

He turned and said to Peter, Get behind me, Satan, you are an obstacle to me.

You are not thinking as God does, but as human beings do.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.

For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life?

And what would what can one extend give in exchange for his life?

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his father's glory, and then he will repay all according to his conduct.

It is a hard gospel, and one of the things when I was preparing uh this homily, it's so fundamental in the sense that it is has everything to do with faith.

How do I struggle with faith?

How do I understand faith?

How do I communicate with God in my life situations and the reality that I'm living in, my context?

It is one of those gospels that is fundamental, like you build upon, right?

And it's it's it's yeah, it's one of those homilies that I wanted to write where it's not simple, but it's reminding you again of okay, where am I in faith?

How do I understand my relationship with God and how do I struggle with that to grow in faith, but also to grow in trust?

Right?

Because you just read it, but take up your cross does not mean put up with everything.

Right.

Um, because Christians sometimes use that language of the cross carelessly.

Oh, bad marriage, oh, that's your cross.

Abusive situation, oh, offer it up.

Uh, you have a terrible boss at work.

Well, carry your cross.

Uh, or maybe you're suffering from some illness.

Well, you know, God sent you this cross.

Well, we need to be careful because not everything painful in your life is a cross.

God has deliberately handed you, right?

Some suffering comes from human sin, from um a fractured world.

And and also, too, some of the some of some terrible decisions that we make.

Or uh or the terrible decisions that someone else made that now has ramifications on your life.

Um, and some are from living in in a fractured fallen world.

Because, you know, the Christian claim is not that God authors every tragedy, the Christian claim is uh much more powerful.

It says there is no suffering into which Christ cannot enter and from which grace cannot bring something redemptive.

That's how we understand it.

It has to be um, because suffering can be redemptive.

Um and that protects us from presenting God as a cruel, cruel being, you know.

Right.

Um but then what does Jesus actually mean?

Because who he says, whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.

Well, Christianity is self-denial, it's it's not self-hatred, it's self-denial.

Because Jesus is not saying you are worthless.

What he's saying is stop making the preservation of yourself the highest good in your life.

And we've talked about this many, many times, right?

Yeah, and I think what you just even clarified, the truth that you just clarified about crosses is so important because I think there is a tendency that people will um kind of use it to dismiss someone's suffering or kind of explain it away where you know God's not asking us to like and you know, bring on suffering.

That's not his approach here, but it's recognizing that um, you know, how to approach suffering.

Or even in your work that you've done in prison ministry or in other uh ministries, yeah, we see that.

It's true.

What's the distinction?

Yeah, well, I think that that great distinction is recognizing that you can't avoid suffering, right?

Suffering's a part of it's part of human experience.

And God doesn't send suffering to us.

So he's not up there, again, like you were saying, like a uh a mean God or like a jerk.

Like I used to say, like, God's not a jerk.

He's not up there being like, you know, this one's for you because you can handle it, you know, you're big and tough.

Or that's just that such the opposite understanding of suffering, but being able to recognize that, you know, God allows suffering so that it can be something of redemption if we invite him into it.

And now can suffering is not the end of the story, but through suffering, we can actually be brought to Christ.

And goodness and beauty can come from it if we entrust it to him, if we surrender it to him and unite it to his cross.

His cross is what makes our cross mean anything, you know.

Exactly right.

Instead of it being something that destroys us, it can now be something that brings us life.

But I always say, like, you don't need to search for your crosses.

Like we live in a fallen world, they're gonna come as our poor choices, uh out, you know, um, something that flows from some a mistake that someone did or we did, or just being in a fallen world where there is suffering.

That's just part of the human experience.

Um, but it's not something we can run from or want to run towards, but embrace as things are allowed in our life with trust.

And a lot of people what the way they deal with it is running from it.

Yeah, well, it's run or numb.

That's kind of what the culture presents to us.

And, you know, I remember that being very much like how I grew up and how my like I didn't think there was another option.

And I think that's one of the most impactful things of the Christian life is there is another way to suffer.

It's not run or numb, you know, it's it's redeem.

But that takes the courage to embrace the cross.

And a lot of maturity too.

Yeah.

Because I think that that was Peter's problem.

Peter wants Jesus without Calvary.

Yeah, absolutely.

Understandably, you know.

Yeah, and a lot, you know, a lot of times we often want Christianity without surrender.

Yeah.

Christ without the cross, uh, the resurrection without Good Friday.

Um, look at what Paul's telling the Romans.

He's saying, offer your bodies as a living sacrifice.

Paul's not saying destroy yourself, he's saying offer yourself.

And that that's a massive difference because sacrificing Christianity is fundamentally about love.

Right.

Why do you get up at three in the morning?

Your daughter, you said your daughter got up at two this morning.

Why do you get up and you do it freely and with love?

Because that's what a mother does.

She sacrifices for her child, or a husband that's caring for uh his wife who's sick, or even when our we have our our parents who are aging and they're they maybe are suffering from Alzheimer's or some sort of illness.

A person sacrifices, um, and those sacrifices make us more ourselves, not less.

Um, because I think sacrifice is living.

Yeah, well, living because it it grows and and overflows from the offering, but if it's not connected to love, it's dead.

Exactly right.

And I think that's um so important to note.

And and I think too, even last night, me waking up my first response, it doesn't feel loving, you know, but I choose to love.

And I think that's the difference, even with sacrifices is recognizing that sometimes it doesn't you know feel, you know, amazing when you sacrifice, but it's and it's choosing.

Like I give this to you, Lord, out of love because I do love her and I will her good.

And that's ultimately what love is, is willing the good of the other.

Right.

Choosing love.

Yeah, and Father, I would love to um in your homily, you you kind of focus actually on Jeremiah.

Um, yeah, where he I love this is actually one of my favorite lines from scripture because it's hilarious.

And I feel like I've been there with Jeremiah.

You dupe me, oh Lord.

And I uh you did a great job really bringing home that um a faithful Christian, you know, it doesn't always mean peaceful, grateful, confident, but you know, Jeremiah helps us have permission to be real with our emotions before God.

Even when we feel like that, like Lord, what?

You know, like what was what's going on?

Well, you know, something I was thinking about this morning.

Um, I was just praying about what we were gonna talk about in the podcast today, and I was thinking about this line, you duped me, Lord, because it's so such a great line.

And but I have to be honest with you, because later on he'll say, I will never speak your name.

And you know, Jeremiah is very angry.

And I was saying to myself, I don't think I've ever been angry with God like that.

Um, because and maybe there's a lack of there's immaturity on my faith life, because I see God with such reverence that maybe there isn't that struggle that I was calling people to in the homily, because if it's master servant, or is it I call you friends?

And so if there is a friendship, a relationship, am I able to go there where saying, I'm never gonna speak your name again?

I don't think I've ever said that.

Um, I've certainly been mad and angry at God and uh questioning.

Um, and maybe I have said, uh, you duped me.

I this is not what I signed up for.

But I don't think, and I was thinking about this this morning, I don't think I've ever said, I will never speak your name.

Like that's that is Jeremiah's prayer is angry.

But what I realized is it's still prayer.

Yeah.

It's uh and I think one of the greatest mistakes as we we can make is thinking that prayer has to be polite before it can be honest.

And I that I'm I'm talking to myself, I'm I'm preaching in the choir here because sometimes we can stop praying precisely when we need to be very honest.

Hey, Lord, I'm angry with you, I'm disappointed, I don't understand, I don't feel anything, I shouldn't say what I'm actually thinking.

But here's the thing God already knows, right?

Yes.

Um but if we go to the Psalms, right, and this is something I was also thinking about.

If we we pray with the Psalms, the Psalms are much messier than what Jeremiah is talking about.

Because the Psalms contain fear, anger, uh confusion, loneliness.

Uh, certainly a lot of questions.

Because if you read some of these Psalms, it's saying, How long, O Lord?

Why have you forgotten me, Lord?

Um, why do you hide your face?

Um, my God, my God, why have you abandoned me?

And I think it's a beautiful thing that scripture doesn't sanitize the human relationship with God.

Absolutely.

And the Psalms are, I know that's where I point people.

Like, I feel like I don't know how to pray.

I always point people to the Psalms because I think they start with all these emotions, but I think the Psalms always end with the truth, which is right, you've abandoned me, but I trust you.

Yeah.

But you are God.

And so kind of like that, it always ends with this confidence of recognizing I can be so free with how I feel, but I I know you're God.

And it is a prayer.

I remember many years ago I was at Mercy Hospital, and there was a little bit of a commotion.

There was a lady, a Haitian woman, who was outside screaming at a statue of our Blessed Mother, like going at it, like having this huge meltdown.

And and one of the security guards is like, we have to stop this.

And one of the sisters who was working in the lobby, she says, No, no, no, no.

She's praying, she is out there praying to God, let her be.

Um and that was a powerful lesson for those of us who are watching that.

The the relationship that that she had with the Lord, that it was an all-out prayer.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's beautiful.

And there's there's something to that that makes people uncomfortable.

And I think it's a great place to be in because we never want to.

And if we're if it's not real enough where we can express all these emotions, then something's still a little off.

Like we haven't like yet stepped into a confidence that God is a person.

Like it's not this like being out there that we cannot access, but God is so close to us that we can share all of our heart, all of the good, all the ugly.

Um, and to be so we're all honest with him and express our emotions to him and not be afraid of what we might feel.

I know for me that's been what transformed my life of prayer at the very beginning of my journey with God is realizing that he wasn't afraid of the things I was afraid of to express to him.

That he was basically saying, like, bring me all of that.

And until you bring me all of that, our relationship's gonna be very polite.

Yeah.

And I remember having those probably like really some very beautiful and deep moments of prayer has been expressing places of my heart that I was very afraid to.

Because I was kind of like, isn't this disrespectful that I'm angry with you, God?

Or still still having this like God is this just like beyond me and beyond like what I can like I just couldn't be real with him.

I thought.

Um, like he would be mad if I showed him my anger because that was disrespectful because I'm just a creature.

And totally related to that.

Yeah, but being able to really pour out my heart, it changed everything.

It made us, it made it real, made the relationship real.

And and then I saw that God was not afraid of my junk.

Even if I was, he wasn't afraid.

Yeah, and I one of the things I was thinking about, I I think that God would rather deal with the real Jeremiah than this religious performance.

Right.

Going through the motions and being perfect and saying the right things.

And but I I think it's it's in that developing a real honest relationship with God and what does that look like?

Um it's not easy.

But you know, one of the why do you think people keep why do you think what what do you think keeps people from being completely honest with God and having these type of uh conversations with God?

Well, I I think for sure one like I was just expressing, I I think they might reverence God and they think that this isn't allowed.

It's kind of like, well, kind of like a king, like I can't go up to you know, a king of the earth and tell him off without being punished for it.

Right.

So I think there's a fear of if I'm honest, I'll either be punished for it or like I'm not, I shouldn't do that, I'm not allowed.

And so I I think that's where this is the marvelous heart of Christianity is that God has become man to give us a human face to uh to know that he for sure and for real offers friendship and relationship with us, you know, like a human face that we can express our emotions and our heart to.

Um, I think that's part of it.

And then also I think sometimes we're afraid of what we find within ourselves.

Yeah.

And to say that out loud or to it's it's it's scary.

And I think both of us I relate to my own life.

Um, but that's where I think things change so much in my relationship with God is when I could really be honest with him, especially honest about disappointments, about doubts, about about our my relationship with him, you know, about being able to say, like, Lord, I know you're there, but I don't feel like you're here.

I don't like show up, you know, and to really express even just the disappointment, kind of like Jeremiah, like, you dote me, oh Lord, like what the heck, where were you?

I thought this was you, and it didn't pan out as I imagined, like just this real honesty.

Right.

And and it's almost like it doesn't mean that that God necessarily actually deceived him.

Right?

Um Jeremiah's feelings are correct, but God comes in and and corrects him.

Um which is a real friendship, and I think the point is, you know, if we're really friends, I should be able to share how I feel, even if I'm not right.

Exactly right and have you respond because you love me.

Like you'd respond to show me the truth and not just let me let these lies be, you know, lies and feeling that are mixed together be the last say.

And I think that's the beauty with Jesus and with the example of Jeremiah is uh God allows him to express himself and have it out and that he needed, but then God, you know, reveals his heart to him and reveals what's really going on, what's really true to bring him further.

And you feel for him because something that we have to understand here is that Jeremiah didn't end up in prison because he disobeyed God.

Right?

He ends up there because he obeyed God.

Um because sometimes doing the right thing has consequences.

We can unconsciously preach a kind of spiritual uh way of life that you know, if I behave, I go to mass, I raise my children correctly, I if I'm faithful, then God will make things work out.

But that's not the promise of Christianity because Jeremiah obeys and suffers.

The prophets all obey God and what they're all rejected.

Um think of our blessed mother standing there saying yes, and she ends up underneath the cross, watching her son die this horrific death.

Um Saint Peter, he follows Christ uh and is martyred.

But Jesus is perfectly obedient to the Father and still ends up on the cross on Calvary.

Um because people sometimes approach God like that, like a contract.

I did my part, where's your part?

I go to church, I follow the rules, I pray in Novina, I did a rosary, I I tried to stay faithful.

And why did my marriage fail?

Why did my ch why are my children not going to church?

Uh why is this diagnosis back?

Um so it's these are hard life everyday scenarios that are happening in people's lives.

And I think that the goal here is to see, okay, where's your faith?

How can we help you understand or to see that that um that God is there and that the relationship is important to struggle with it, but to be honest and real.

Um because do we love God or do we love the life we hope God would give us?

That's a great question, Father.

And I think that's where the wrestling like that gives clarity to the wrestling.

Because what am I really wrestling with?

It's usually mourning or grieving or letting go of what I thought needed to happen in order for me to be happy.

And I think um from the people that I've journeyed with too, that's the struggle normally is kind of um getting to this place of trusting and allowing the Lord to hear that honest prayer from us, but then really believing, which this is the most incredible part of Christianity, right?

Is that in the midst of your suffering or in the midst of the questions that you're asking, like someone who is more than human, who is fully human, fully divine, will guide you through that.

Like that's better than things just like that's a better story coming together than you just you know fake trying to figure it out on your own, or by it being resolved the way you want it, because you don't have the full picture of where that's going to lead you.

Because it might be the next suffering.

It might be exactly to you're, you know, the worst thing that could have happened, you know, even beyond that.

And so I don't know, I think about this as being at the heart of Christianity where it's not the guarantee of no.

Suffering, but it's it's all about who you suffer with.

And it's not just a human person, but it's someone that's fully human, fully divine that's going to teach you how to walk through suffering and be with you in the midst of it.

I mean, that's everything you need, you know, like right.

Because he's not on the sidelines saying, okay, go at it, uh, you know, I'm watching you suffer.

No, he suffered.

Yeah.

Because sometimes we think blessings should look like success, health, prosperity, tranquility.

And when everything's going according to plan to plan, oh, well, though I'm blessed.

Those are my blessings.

But what is Jesus saying?

He says sometimes the road to fidelity runs directly through Jerusalem.

But that does not mean God enjoys suffering.

It means suffering is not evidence that God has abandoned you.

And that's where I think the distinction is so important.

Um, again, because there's a difference between questioning God and and and abandoning God.

Yeah.

And the questioning is important so that the relationship stays real.

Because you can also say, like, okay, Lord, sure.

And it's going to get stagnant and your faith is going to fade because you're there not from love, but by, you know, kind of like you're um not addressing, it's just not treating the relationship with God real.

It's like um just pretending like you're fine when you're not, and not expressing your heart and being able to move forward with the Lord.

And I think you're absolutely right, because that's where at least what I was trying to draw out was the this fire, this thirst, this restlessness, how God leaves clues inside of us.

Um because Jeremiah says fire, and in the psalm, it was talking about this thirst that we have.

And of course, we just celebrated our patron Saint Augustine, and he's the doctor of restlessness, and um, and that's our human reality.

We're creatures whose desire exceeds this uh finite created world.

Um, because Catholic anthropology will say we can satisfy a desire for food, we can satisfy the desire for sleep, we can acquire money, we can achieve a career goal, we can fall in love, we can travel, we can have all these experiences, but eventually something strange happens.

And what Catholic anthropology is going to teach us is that the human heart will always ask for more.

And not necessarily possession, uh, but more permanence, more meaning, more beauty, more love.

And that's something that won't disappear.

That's something that's inside of you, and it will always be there.

Um again, uh, I think that our culture is has developed endless ways of preventing us from just sitting and being and and contemplating because think about it.

Every single person you know is either if you you go out to dinner, you see people are on their phone, or the phone is attached to them, and it's all Instagram, we have Netflix, you can shop on the phone, there's alcohol, uh, you could be a work addict, uh, travel, sex, whatever it is.

It's just constant noise.

Um, and not everything on that list, not everything I just mentioned is inherently wrong, but it it calls for a deep question as of what happens when I need something constantly because I'm afraid of what I hear when everything becomes quiet.

And a lot of people are in that space.

Um, and I think that that's where Augustine becomes very real and very today, uh, very contemporary, because maybe restlessness is not always a problem requiring uh medication or distraction.

Sometimes restlessness is information.

It tells me that if I'm asking something finite to satisfy an infinite hunger, um, I don't know.

I I think that there's so much there to break open and to bring to prayer because we're constantly wanting to find finite things to satisfy an infinite desire.

And knowing that truth that we have an infinite longing should give us freedom and it should help us name what we experience with within ourselves.

And also just like you said, know that these things, you know, are good in so far as they lead us towards God, but it's not the ultimate that we're looking for.

Right.

Um and I love in your humbly, Father, how you said Jeremiah calls it fire.

Augustine calls it restlessness, and today's psalm calls it thirst.

And I love about that, like fire, restlessness, thirst.

Like we all have that within us, and it's nothing to be afraid of.

And I I think we find that a lot from Augustine too, is it's something that's supposed to draw us towards God, and it's it's something that grows with with passion and and zeal if it's rightly oriented.

Exactly right.

And and that's why nothing in the world can satisfy it, because nothing in the world except for God is infinite.

Well, think about it.

Jeremiah tries to quit.

Yeah, and but the fire is there and he can't quit.

Um I don't know.

It's it's very intense in the sense that it's a lot of soul searching, getting to a place where we understand, well, what is the root of this uneasiness?

What is the root of the void that I'm feeling?

Or am I self-medicating?

Am I looking for other things?

What is what is this?

Because it can damage a relationship, it can relate or damage your your marriage, it can it's something that if we're able to sit, take away the noise, and really analyze where is this coming from?

Who's going to be able to or what uh is going to be able to heal this longing, this desire, this ache, this whole.

Well, uh it's only Jesus Christ.

It's only Jesus Christ.

Only Jesus Christ.

Only something infinite, infinite goodness can quench that fire, that thirst, that restlessness.

And it's and if we're able to figure that out, then we begin to walk that road, and things start to fit into like almost like a puzzle.

And and part of that puzzle piece is figuring out your relationship with the Lord and how you communicate to God.

And this makes me think about like the saints and the sinners, the the greatest of saints and the greatest of sinners are made of the same stuff.

The difference is where they go with their ache.

Exactly.

Where they go for this fire to be fueled.

Um, and I think that's encouraging for us is to not be afraid of the ache and but to know where where to go to allow it to be satisfied, allow it to grow into what it's created to be, which is to point us towards God and to be filled by Him.

So good.

Um Yeah, Father.

So maybe what are some advice that you would have for maybe someone that's listening and this is resonating with resonating with them?

Um, but maybe they've been afraid of their ache, thinking like their ache has always gotten them into trouble, you know, or that they've gone to the wrong places to be for it to be filled.

Um, how can we begin to invite God into that ache, invite Jesus to fill that ache?

Well, what I would say is maybe faith is less about the strength which I'm able to hold on to God.

And maybe it's more about discovering the strength with which God holds on to me.

And I think that that's right there is the key because that changes the interpretation of how we read Jeremiah.

Why?

Because he thinks the fire is the problem.

He can't suppress it, he can't escape it, he can't quit it.

But looking backwards, the fire was the grace.

And I think that that's that's what we need to tap into.

That's how I need to be able to look at that.

And that's a very different way of hearing you duped me, O Lord.

Um, because maybe a final question I would just give you is what if some of the things um we have interpreted as God's absence are actually places where quietly and painfully God was refusing to let us go.

I think that that's a good question for this week.

But all of this is an exercise in how am I growing spiritually?

How am I maturing in my discipleship and my relationship with the Lord?

Again, as I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, these are all um fundamentals that we lay down to be able to build upon.

So good.

Well, thank you, Father, for this great conversation.

Um, so much to soak in.

And again, a great question, I think, for all of us to take um for this week.

And maybe even a challenge to check into the Psalms if you've never prayed with the Psalms to be taught a little bit more of how we can open our heart and our emotions to Christ, to God, to let prayer become something very real in a conversation.

Absolutely.

All right, Michelle, have a great week here in Crackham, and we'll see you next week.

Thanks so much.

God bless.