Christian Witness

So, there are handouts. If you didn't get a handout, raise your hand and Ben's coming around with them.

So we are several weeks into our class on gender and sexuality, looking at God's purpose for making us in his image as male and female

and how we're to relate to one another and how to glorify Christ.

So, this morning we were looking at the theme of hospitality and holiness.

That's what I want to entitle this morning's lesson, or Christian witness to the LGBT community.

That is lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and you could add more letters to that as well.

So, just a couple of schedule notes. So the next two weeks, we are sort of taking a break from this class.

Next week, it says prayer. Jeff Stevens is actually going to teach next week.

And if he was here, he could tell you what he's teaching on.

But he's not here yet. So, he may teach on marriage or he may do something on prayer.

And I just asked him a couple days ago, so it's not his fault.

But he will be leading you next week.

And then there's a missionary who's been part of our church this fall who's staying at the Overseas Ministry Study Center

named Dr. Adam Shaba from Nigeria.

And he is a pastor from Nigeria.

And he is going to share some of what he has been...

He's going to share with us on the 24th.

So, I've got to talk with him.

He is... I'm trying to think. He's working on two projects, and I won't be able to remember what they are.

One of them is, I think, something like how Christians should respond when they're persecuted.

And then another... Because a lot of... He works with pastors and churches, some of whom have been violently attacked.

And so, how do Christians respond?

You know, how do... You know, do you run away?

Do you take up arms and fight?

Do you just sort of stand there?

You know, what does it look like, you know, when it's really intense?

You know, that's... And how do we face opposition more broadly?

So, he might speak on that or just other things that the Lord has been teaching him.

And then December, we'll come back to this class and continue.

We're going to do one week on pornography, one week on sexual abuse,

and then finally, we'll look at our heavenly hope, the hope of glory, right?

So, we're in the middle of this fallen world.

We're dealing with these challenging issues, but we want to keep our eyes on the promise that God has for us.

And so, that's where we're going to end.

So, so far in this class, we've looked at God's design for our bodies

and how we're beautiful, created by God, and broken because we're corrupted by sin.

How in Christ we're called into redemption and he has begun his work of redemption in us.

We looked at how marriage and singleness, when we live those out in a Christ-centered way,

can both point towards Christ's redemption.

And last two weeks, we looked at homosexuality and we looked at transgender identity

in light of the Christian story.

But today, so far, we've been sort of looking at everything in light of the Christian story.

Right? In light of the gospel, in light of the biblical narrative.

But today, I want to ask the question, how do we relate to people who haven't yet bought into the Christian story?

Right? How do we relate to people who are outside the church with wisdom and love?

And the Bible has a lot to say to us about that.

I think if we start by looking at the ministry of Jesus,

we can look at how did Jesus relate to people in the world who were not yet his disciples?

Now, there are several examples you could point to.

But three groups of people that Jesus relates to.

So one, in the beginning of Mark, tells a story about Jesus encountering a leper.

And a leper would have been outside, sort of an outsider,

someone who was literally forced to remain separate from the community

because they were worried that his disease would spread to others.

And so he would actually have to call out, unclean, unclean.

And so there's a lot of shame associated with being a leper.

And we see a story where Jesus touched the leper and then healed him.

We also see another group of people who we see Jesus relating to are tax collectors.

Now, tax collectors were notorious cheaters.

Right?

So pretty much you could assume that someone who was a tax collector was actively engaged in sin.

Deception, greed, etc.

How does Jesus relate to tax collectors?

Well, we see Jesus calling Levi and Matthew,

whether those two were the same person or two different people,

but calling them to be his disciples,

and they left behind their former way of life and followed him.

But we also see an interesting situation where Jesus calls Levi to be his disciple.

And then he goes to Levi's house,

and it says many tax collectors were there at Levi's house eating and drinking with Jesus.

And a lot of people looked at Jesus and said,

Jesus, why are you eating and drinking with those people?

Why are you going to the house of people who are obviously actively engaged in sinful and destructive behavior,

cheating our own community, bringing dishonor upon us?

You know, why would you be associating with them?

And Jesus says, it's not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

I haven't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Another group of people who we see Jesus interacting with who are not yet his disciples would be,

so in John chapter 8, beginning of John chapter 8,

John 8 · chapter mention John 8 · chapter mention

there's a story about Jesus encountering a woman caught in adultery.

Now, there's a little, you know, this story may or may not have been exactly where it currently is in the Gospel of John.

It's sort of one of two passages in the New Testament that might,

we're not totally sure if it was right where it is now.

But another story in Luke, similar story,

there's a prostitute who comes and anoints Jesus' feet,

or it says, a sinful woman of the city,

which you can sort of read between the lines.

Again, someone who was sort of would have been seen as notorious.

And she was attracted to Jesus.

And so, how does Jesus respond to,

well, in John, with the adulterous woman,

he says,

neither, he says,

let the one who's without sin throw the first stone.

Right?

Because some people, they bring her to him and they want to stone her.

And so, and then all the other people go away

and Jesus is left standing there.

And he says, neither do I condemn you.

Go now and sin no more.

So isn't that so interesting, right?

In all these episodes,

and we could look at others as well,

we see that Jesus is hospitable.

He's remarkably generous towards outsiders.

People even are attracted to him

who are not attracted to other religious leaders

who normally keep their distance

from the Pharisees and other,

and Sadducees and other sort of well-known religious leaders.

Jesus attracts them to himself.

He eats with them.

He meets them on their own turf,

even though it damaged his reputation to do so.

But Jesus also calls those who follow him

to a life of holiness.

That is to being set apart for God and his purposes.

Right?

So Jesus doesn't,

he calls those who follow him

to a life of uncompromising devotion,

even saying,

take up your cross and follow me.

Right?

So Jesus calls his disciples to forsake our sin

and to follow him.

And I think what you see in Jesus's ministry

is that his generous hospitality

both precedes and promotes holiness.

So what I mean there is,

Jesus doesn't wait until everyone's completely forsaken their sin

in order to be generous and kind and open-hearted to them,

but he's also not generous and kind and open-hearted

in a way that encourages them to remain

in the same sinful or self-destructive patterns.

So there's that balance there.

Right?

Jesus is generous and open-hearted to people.

He meets them right where they are,

but in his grace,

he doesn't let them just stay right where they are.

Isn't that true?

Isn't that how God meets us?

So I think this gives us a model

of how do we relate to people

who are not yet followers of Jesus?

Jesus.

And in fact, in the epistles,

we see the same commands to us.

Romans 12,

seek to show hospitality.

Be generous and open-hearted.

And that's true,

not even just for fellow Christians,

but the verses go on to talk about

don't repay anyone evil for evil.

If your enemy is hungry,

feed him.

If he's thirsty,

give him something to drink.

Right?

That's what hospitality involved in the ancient world

is inviting someone in your home

and giving them a meal.

And Jesus says,

even to someone who is opposing you,

right?

Extend that kind of generous welcome.

And another verse that I think goes along with this

is when Paul in 2 Corinthians says,

we regard no one according to the flesh.

Now, what does that mean?

Basically, what Paul is saying here is

we don't just see people

in sort of worldly categories.

We don't just see people

in the way that this world defines them

or even just in the way they might define themselves.

We see people in the way that God defines us

as people who are made in God's image,

every single human being.

And as every single human being

is broken and corrupted by sin.

Right?

And we're all in that same boat.

That's where it sort of starts.

So we see people,

we, and that's something we can pray.

Lord, help me to see other people

as you see them

or in light of how you see them.

But second, holiness, right?

The same chapter, Romans 12 says,

abhor what is evil,

stay away from what is evil

and hold fast to what is good.

So Christians should have clear

and distinct moral standards,

embracing what's true and right

and good and beautiful

and resisting what is deceptive

and distorted and dishonoring to God.

And I think standing for holiness

starts with seeking holiness ourselves.

Right?

So in other words,

sort of let's clean our own house first.

Right?

So I used this analogy

in a sermon about a year ago

where I talked about poison ivy

that had infiltrated our yard

and it was mostly coming

from our neighbor's yard.

But you know what?

If I just got really mad at the neighbor

and, you know,

because I needed to start

by cleaning it out of our yard.

Right?

So that I wouldn't get it again.

Because it was awful.

Right?

You know,

so we need to start seeking holiness

by taking up our own cross

and following Christ.

And that's the only way

that we can sort of be

a credible witness to others

to challenge others

to also do the same.

So practically,

what does this look like

in relation to the LGBT communities?

Now I'm using this phrase

LGBT community

not because everyone

who is gay or lesbian

or bisexual

or transgender

or queer

or intersex

or asexual

or however they might

define themselves

is part of one community

because that's not really true.

But just sort of

people who identify that way.

Right?

And there's many,

you know,

people,

so some terms.

I've listed some definitions

of terms

just to understand

how terms are commonly used.

Right?

And that's helpful.

Right?

Part of meeting somebody

where they are

is understanding

how they see themselves

or how they define themselves.

And at least

understanding it.

Even if you might say,

well,

I don't know whether

I would see that

as the whole picture.

But you know what?

You've got to at least start

by understanding people.

And I think here

it's good to ask questions.

I mean,

there are many terms out there.

I think it's fine

to ask questions like,

how do you identify yourself?

Can you tell me

what that means to you?

What has your experience

been like?

It's better to ask

an honest question

than to make

a wrong assumption

out of fear.

Some terms are phrases

that may provoke

negative reaction

from many people

who identify

as LGBT.

So one would be

calling someone

a homosexual.

People sort of

hear that word

and are like,

but that's not

how I define myself.

That sounds sort of

more like a clinical term.

Or referring to

a homosexual lifestyle.

People might be like,

well,

what are you envisioning

when you think of,

when you use that phrase?

Are you saying

that everyone lives

the same way

in all these respects?

If someone calls himself gay,

they might not like it

if you refer to

their experience

of having same-sex attractions.

So same-sex attractions

is a more common phrase

within the Christian community,

especially because

many Christians

use that phrase

to basically say,

this is what I'm experiencing,

but this isn't

at the deepest level

who I am.

But many people

who have embraced

a gay or lesbian identity,

if you use that phrase

same-sex attraction,

they'll be like,

but you're immediately

trying to tell me

that that's not who I am,

and you're trying

to tell me

that I need to get rid

of this part of me

that I think

is actually very fundamental

to who I am.

So it's sort of like,

could be seen as like

immediately provoking

a conflict

just by the phrase

that you use.

Right?

So,

so I think

sometimes it's wise

to sort of just

avoid phrases

that immediately,

that might immediately

cause offense

in the process

of building a relationship

with someone

and sort of

representing Christ.

Another thing

I think

can be helpful

is to recognize

that there are

some similarities

between

the evangelical

conservative

Christian community

and the LGBT community.

You might think,

really?

Well,

think,

think about

what is the experience

like,

right?

Both groups

feel like

marginalized minorities

in a hostile

or indifferent world.

Both groups

find solidarity

and strength

in being together.

Right?

Why do we come together

on Sundays?

Because we want

to find strength

in our Christian,

Christ-centered identity.

Both have a message

of freedom

and liberation.

Right?

This idea,

we used to be living

in the darkness,

in the closet,

in shame,

and now we're living

in the truth,

and we want to be

accepted and loved

for who we really are.

Right?

For Christians,

we found that truth

in the person of Christ.

Right?

That he loves us

and he has given us

our true identity.

And,

but in the LGBT community,

there's a sense that

having sort of found

our sexual identity

might be a part of,

might be a similar

experience.

Both also want to be

accepting and hospitable

and outreaching communities

in a sense.

Wanting to

bring more people

into our community

or to extend

our community

into the wider world.

The other similarity

is that each group

sees the other

as a potential

and,

or as a specific

or at least

a potential threat

to its well-being.

Right?

So,

most recently,

Beto O'Rourke

at one of the

Democratic debates

said that he thinks

that churches

that take a traditional

position on marriage

should have their

501c3 status revoked.

Now,

right?

How does that feel

as a Christian?

Right?

You know,

first of all,

you're like,

really?

Like,

boy,

that would like

decimate a lot

of charitable organizations.

I don't think you realize

what you're doing.

I don't think you realize

how many of the poor

and other people

that your party

stands for,

like,

are being helped

by these very organizations

actively.

You know?

So,

right?

But,

but even besides that,

right,

as a Christian,

you sort of feel like,

whoa,

like,

we feel like

we're being attacked here.

And,

people,

you know,

people in the LGBT community

feel like,

you know,

when there was a whole,

you know,

long debate about

same-sex marriage

and,

you know,

Proposition 8 in California

and,

you know,

it's those

evangelical Christian churches

who are standing

against our right

to,

and our freedom.

Right?

So,

there's,

there's this sense

and vocal members

of each group

advocate for

mutually opposing

public policy stances.

Right?

Now,

not everybody

has the same politics

in either group,

but,

still.

The other thing

I'll say is that

Christians

who experience

same-sex attraction

but who choose

not to pursue

a same-sex relationship

because they prioritize

their Christian identity

and their,

their biblical commitment

over their sexual desires

are sort of caught

in the middle.

So,

they're generally

not well understood

or accepted

within the wider

gay community,

but they're also

not always well understood

or supported

in the church.

And I think,

one of the things

I hope within this class

is that

we would be

equipped

and encouraged

to

stand with

our brothers and sisters

in Christ

or walking this

challenging

and hard road.

But how can

Christians faithfully

bear witness to Christ

when relationships

can easily become

distant,

polarized,

and tense,

right?

When each group

sort of sees each other

as a potential threat.

What should be

the distinctive witness

of Christians?

Well,

I don't think

that Christians

should abandon

our traditional

understanding

of biblical marriage.

You know,

we've talked about

that in past weeks.

And,

but I do think

that if we're

finding our identity

and our security

in Christ

and not from ourselves,

because that's really

the difference,

right?

Where do Christians

find our deepest identity

outside of ourselves

in Jesus Christ?

Where does,

you know,

if someone

who is

identifying as LGBT

and sort of

claiming that

as the,

sort of,

one of the deepest

parts of who they are,

well,

it's in their own

sexual desires

and experience,

right?

So,

that's sort of

the main difference

is where is the source

of your identity

coming from?

And I think as Christians,

because the source

of our identity

is coming from

outside us,

I think that we

have some resources

to engage

in these kind of

challenging relationships.

So first,

as forgiven sinners,

I think we can be

less defensive.

We can be more able

to admit

our own flaws

and our own weaknesses

and our own sins.

And we're not,

right,

as Christians,

we are not out

to prove that we are

better than everybody

else in the world.

And if we are,

then we've forgotten

the gospel,

which says,

Christ died for our sins,

right?

And by the grace of God,

we are what we are.

Second,

as recipients of God's

common grace,

now,

common grace is just a word

that means the blessings

that God extends

to all people,

regardless of whether

they believe in Him.

So,

life and being made

in God's image

and,

you know,

the sun and the rain

and everything,

we can affirm

all that is good

and a reflection

of God's image

in LGBT people.

So,

for example,

there may be many

admirable aspects

of a gay couple's

friendship,

even though Christians

cannot celebrate

the sexual aspects

of that relationship.

Or,

a lesbian couple

may be admirable,

excellent parents

in many respects,

even though Christians

may be concerned

that they've deliberately

structured their family

and chosen to exclude

a male parental figure

in how they've

structured their family.

Right?

So,

I think Christians

have an internal,

third thing,

Christians have an

internal motivation

through our union

with Christ

to love people

who are different

than us,

people who disagree

with us,

or even people

who attack us.

And that's not

something

that is inherent

in the LGBT community

or the world at large.

Right?

Just because you identify

as gay or lesbian

does not actually

give you any resources

to love somebody

who disagrees with you

or who understands

your identity differently.

But,

identifying as a Christian

should.

Right?

It should enable us

to love people

better,

even people who

deeply disagree with us

or even might attack us.

I'm not going to get into

what kinds of public

policies Christians

should advocate for.

I will recommend

a book called,

by John Inaz,

who called

Confident Pluralism,

which sort of talks

about how Christians

can engage widely.

It's written not just

to Christians,

but he's a Christian

law professor.

And there's a copy

on the bookstall.

But it's a very thoughtful book.

It gets into some details

of legal cases

and things like that.

And he's sort of trying

to say,

how do we live together

in a society

where people have

very different views

and opinions?

Is there a way

that we can pursue

the common good together?

So I think that's

a thoughtful book

and a good resource

in that direction.

But next steps

for the church

in reaching out

to people

who identify

as LGBT.

Extend hospitality.

Take initiative

to befriend

and listen to

and learn

from people.

Repent of double standards.

Believe that all

sexual sin

is destructive.

Let's clean

our own houses first.

Third,

acceptance is not

the same as affirmation

or approval.

Now just think about

how you express this

in other relationships.

Right?

There's many other

relationships that

we all find ourselves in

where there's some

aspect of how

people are living

or their habits

or the way

they conduct themselves

at work

that you're like,

I really don't approve.

I can't go along

with that.

I really have concerns

about that.

I think that's

certainly wouldn't

be acceptable

for me as a Christian

to engage in.

But you have to relate

to that person

and respect them.

Right?

So just think about

how you do that

in other relationships.

Sometimes I think

this feels very tense.

Right?

How do we

like accept somebody

but without affirming them?

Well,

I mean,

do you have any friends

who are heterosexuals

who are cohabiting

and they're not married

and they're not Christian?

Well,

how do you relate to them?

Right?

I mean,

that's a close analogy.

Right?

There's plenty

of other analogies.

Four,

I'd say invest

for the long haul

not just for the short term.

More specific questions.

Let me jump

into more specific questions,

try to run through these

a little quickly

and then open it up.

I want to make sure

to leave some time

for questions

that you have.

How should I respond

if somebody comes out

to me as gay

or lesbian

or et cetera?

First,

thank them

for trusting you

enough to share

that with you

because if they know

you're a Christian,

they probably have

some fear

that you would reject them

or have an immediate

sort of negative response

like,

I don't want to deal

with you anymore

or something like,

or distancing yourself.

So,

thank them

for trusting you enough.

Reassure them

that you're committed

to your friendship

or whatever your relationship

is with them,

you know,

that you won't reject them

as a person.

My brother came out

to me several years ago

and I said,

I just want you to know,

like,

you're always going

to be my brother

and I,

you know,

I love you

and I want you

to know that.

And that was part

of our conversation.

Third,

listen to them.

Ask honest questions,

right?

Tell me more about

what it's been like

for you.

Who have you told?

How have people responded?

Are you in a relationship?

Right?

These are helpful questions.

Third,

pray for them.

Or fourth,

pray for them.

Pray that God

would reveal his goodness

to them.

Pray that your faith,

friendship would be

a faithful expression

of that goodness.

Now,

another question

that comes up

is,

should I tell my friend,

my gay friend,

for example,

or my gay brother,

that I don't support

gay marriage?

So,

I did not initiate

that conversation

when my brother

came out to me,

but he asked me

very directly,

so that gave us

a good opportunity

to talk.

So,

the short answer

is it depends.

Okay?

So,

consider at least

the following factors,

right?

Does your friend

claim to follow Christ

and accept

the authority

of the Bible?

Okay?

Have you had

conversations

about the gospel,

like the big picture

of the Bible,

anything else

about God?

Do you have

a friendship

that generally

allows for disagreement

and mutual challenge

on a personal level?

Or not?

And,

is your friend

asking for your opinion

on this particular question?

So,

if the answer

to all those questions

is yes,

then yes.

You need to be clear

about where you stand.

If the answer

to all those questions

is no,

probably no,

you don't need

to initiate

that conversation.

If the answer

is somewhat yes

and somewhat no,

then that's,

right,

the discerning

place in the middle.

So,

now,

what if,

right,

what if somebody

asked you directly,

right?

Say,

random person

on the street,

or a person

that you,

you know,

whatever,

crazy situation,

right?

You're like,

oh,

I don't want

to be in this conversation.

Where is this going?

Why are they asking

me this question?

Do you think

homosexuality is a sin?

So,

sometimes a simple

direct answer

is best.

Yes,

I think God

intended sex

to be for marriage

between a man

and woman.

I think anything

outside of that

is not God's will

for those who

follow God.

So,

actually,

so I have a lot

of books.

Where is this one?

Okay.

So,

Beckett Cook

was an actor

in Hollywood

and he

was sitting

at a coffee shop

in LA

and he was like,

you know,

I'd never,

like,

I'd never really

interacted with

Christians in the

worlds that I lived

in.

You know,

pretty much,

we never talked

about God.

Most of us agree

that God probably

didn't exist.

And then I was

sitting at this

coffee shop and

there were these

guys,

like,

reading the Bible

together and,

like,

discussing the Bible

at a table near us.

And I was like,

this is really weird.

Why are they here?

You know,

this is like a hip

coffee shop in LA.

Like,

you know,

I thought they were

only in Arkansas.

You know?

And so,

he's curious

and so he's talking

to his friend

and he's like,

should we ask,

like,

so he goes over

and he's like,

who are you guys?

Like,

what are you guys

up to?

Oh,

we're Christians.

We're reading the Bible

together.

You know,

we're from this church.

You know,

he asks him some more

questions and he's like,

well,

so,

you know,

what about homosexuality?

Like,

where do you guys

stand on that?

And he's like,

the guy was very honest.

He said,

you know,

he and his church

did not think

that,

that,

that gay sex was,

you know,

they,

they believe that gay sex

was not pleasing to God.

And that guy happened

to sort of have,

that guy also said,

you know,

I also have same-sex

attractions myself,

but I've chosen

to not pursue those

because I'm committed

to following Christ.

And the guy was like,

well,

that's sort of weird.

Like,

why would you do that?

But then,

you know,

the guy like gave him

his,

gave him his card

and was like,

hey,

if you want to come

to church with me,

you're welcome.

And so,

like a week and a half later,

he goes to church

and he's sitting there

and he's listening

to the sermon

and he's like,

the sermon,

he's like,

I never wanted

the sermon to end.

It was so fascinating.

Right?

You're like,

boy,

the Holy Spirit

must be working.

The sermon was like

an hour long.

Like,

you know,

and,

and he had,

so anyway,

he had this like

remarkable conversion.

Right?

Anyway,

you can read the story.

But,

you know,

but he was like,

it was actually really helpful

that somebody was just clear

and like didn't get all

weird about it.

We're just like,

well,

no,

that's where we stand.

But,

you know,

that's,

you're welcome

to come to our church.

Like,

now sometimes I think

it's worth trying to bring

in the bigger picture.

Right?

So,

here are ways to bring

in the bigger picture.

And many times Jesus did this.

So,

sometimes Jesus,

people come to Jesus

with a question

and he answers

with another question.

Or he sort of brings

in a bigger picture

he doesn't answer

immediately directly.

So,

is homosexuality a sin?

Well,

what do you think sin is?

Well,

the Bible says that

everyone has sinned

and fallen short

of the glory of God.

So,

that sort of opens up

a bigger conversation.

Right?

You don't want to just

avoid the question

and never answer it.

But,

it's sort of

bringing in a bigger,

is it,

okay,

so,

you know,

so we're clear

that we're not just saying

those people are sinners

and we're not.

Right?

No,

the Bible's saying

we're all sinners.

Well,

what is sin?

Right?

All right.

Third question,

should I attend a gay wedding

if I'm invited?

Okay?

Some Christians say no

because they would say

attending a wedding

means you're witnessing

and blessing the vows

of the couple getting married.

Other Christians say yes,

you can attend a wedding

as an expression of friendship

without endorsing the marriage.

Right?

So,

is this like

going to worship

in an idol's temple

or is it like

Jesus eating and drinking

with the tax collectors?

Right?

Okay,

good question.

I think there's,

so,

there's some roles

in a wedding

that clearly communicate

I approve

and I'm here,

I'm completely behind

sort of everything

that this couple is doing.

Right?

Officiating,

obviously,

I think also being

in the wedding party,

you know,

standing up there,

that's sort of symbolic,

that seems to fall

on that side.

I think just being

in the audience

may or may not

communicate approval.

So,

traditionally it did.

Traditionally it's like

God and these witnesses.

Today,

it's not,

I don't think people

see the audience

in a sort of that way.

I think people

see the audience

as,

well,

they're here,

they're our friends,

we want them to be

part of our party.

So,

so I think

it's more problematic

if someone

is having

same-sex wedding

explicitly

in the name of Christ

and sort of

because that isn't

something that Christ

actually is

sort of authorizing

and blessing.

But,

question is to ask.

If I attend,

what will that communicate?

If I don't attend,

what will that communicate?

If I attend something

I can't fully support,

how do I maintain

integrity

in that setting?

Sort of,

what boundaries

will I draw?

So,

again,

so I,

my cousin

had a same-sex wedding.

Yes,

I have a lot of

extended family members

who are in,

who identify as LGBT

and I had to ask myself,

do I go?

Right?

So,

but what do I,

what do I say

as I walk through

the receiving line?

Right?

And so I said,

you know,

I'm really glad

to be here with you today

and I'm really thankful

for you,

for you guys.

Right?

I can say that

with integrity.

Right?

I'm thankful for you,

for having you guys

in my life.

Um,

but other people

might choose not to attend.

Other people might feel like,

I just can't do it.

Like,

I just can't do it

with integrity.

That's fine.

If you're there,

then,

then I think the question is,

how do you,

sort of,

um,

be intentional

about pursuing relationship

with people

both before and afterwards?

And sort of expressing,

like,

you know,

and maybe you're

explicit about why

you can't attend,

maybe you're more distant

and you just,

you know,

uh,

decline the invitation.

But how do you express,

like,

I still,

I,

I value you as a friend

or as extended family member?

Um,

all right.

I'm sure these questions

raise more questions,

but we'll go on.

What about preferred pronouns

and people who adopt

a new name

as part of their gender transition?

Is that,

is calling someone

by their preferred name

and pronoun

an expression of hospitality,

meaning people where they are?

Or,

is it bearing false witness

because you are affirming

something that,

that is not actually true?

Calling someone he

when they are really she

in God's eyes.

Uh,

so,

so there's a lot of pressure,

uh,

including legal pressure.

I think New York City

passed a misgendering ordinance

and in Great Britain

there is one as well.

Um,

so there's pressure

to just

call people

whatever they want to be called

and don't you dare

question that.

Uh,

now,

I think there's a question

that as Christians

we need to be discerning

and prayerful

and patient

and courageous.

So,

you know,

if somebody introduces themselves

to you by a certain name,

I think just go with that name,

right?

I've had people introduce themselves

to me by all kinds of names.

I'm G.

I'm,

you know,

whatever.

And I'm like,

I don't think that was

your birth name.

Okay?

Right?

But you know what?

I'm not going to ask for their ID.

I'm not going to say

what did your brother name you

when you were born.

I'm not going to,

I'm just,

fine,

I'll relate to you

however you,

like,

whatever name you're telling me.

Like,

we're just starting

a relationship here.

Um,

now if you have

an existing relationship

with somebody,

you could have

an honest conversation

about what you're willing

or not willing to do.

So you might say,

I'm willing to

call you by the name

you want to be called,

but I don't feel comfortable

referring to you as he.

Is that,

you know,

is that okay?

Um,

so,

in some cases

you can sort of work that out.

People will accept that.

There's sort of a way of,

okay,

we're trying to respect each other

and,

you know,

there may be some

give and take

on both sides.

um,

uh,

now in at least

some cases,

um,

just,

I'll,

I'll get back to you.

Uh,

in at least some cases

you may,

uh,

so an obvious case

might be,

uh,

someone who is suicidal,

someone who is

extremely depressed,

uh,

or mentally unstable.

Um,

I,

I think there are

certainly some cases

where you,

you might decide

it is not wise

to even attempt

to open this can

of worms right now

because there are

sort of bigger issues

at stake.

And maybe we can talk

about this down the road

but the best thing

would just be

let's not even

try to navigate,

you know,

let's just,

let me,

let's just try to,

uh,

sort of,

um,

uh,

even accept something

that might be

maybe less than ideal.

Um,

avoiding pronouns

is possible

at times

it can be awkward.

All right,

last question

and then I'll open it up.

Uh,

how do I talk about

all this with my children?

Or if you will have children,

right?

Christian parents

should actively

guide their children

in age-appropriate

gender identity development.

Uh,

so,

this begins with

repeatedly and regularly

affirming

in different ways

how wonderful it is

that God has made

them male or female

and explaining

God's good design

for the human body

and male and female

relationships

at an early age.

And I think

the best way

to do this

is to talk about this,

uh,

before,

uh,

children are directly

confronted with sort of

fallenness and brokenness

in this area.

And not as a reaction

to,

um,

seeing something

that you're like,

oh no,

I can't affirm,

I can't,

we can't promote that

so I need to tell

my children

what God's design is.

No,

we,

we need to,

first,

the best thing is like,

start early.

Um,

so,

uh,

we used,

uh,

two books that I think

are on the bookstore

called The Story of Me

and Before I Was Born.

They're sort of,

um,

uh,

book,

uh,

picture books

with,

uh,

very tasteful,

uh,

illustrations.

Um,

so we were the first one

when our children,

our older children

had just turned three

and five.

Uh,

and so these for us

opened the door

to many further conversations.

So it's a normal topic

in our household,

uh,

to talk about being male

and female,

even to talk about sex.

Our kids can ask us questions.

Now,

I'm not,

you know,

like,

you can be discreet here.

Okay?

Right?

I'm not going,

I'm not saying let's,

you know,

be,

be,

um,

uh,

sort of,

uh,

inappropriate.

But,

but I also think,

um,

you know,

uh,

this is something

that God has made.

Right?

God made our bodies.

They're good.

He made them good.

Right?

He made humanity

to reproduce sexually.

Right?

You can explain

that to children

in an appropriate way.

Right?

It takes a mommy

and a daddy,

a man and a woman

to come together

and make a baby.

Right?

Like,

it's a mysterious,

you know,

at first you can say

it's just,

it's a wonderful thing.

Like,

mommy and daddy

love each other

so much

that they want to,

um,

sort of bring,

uh,

another person

into the world.

It's a gift from God.

So,

I think it's important

not to just avoid

talking about these topics

because of some

misguided sense

of shame

or embarrassment.

Uh,

so,

back in the 19th century

in the Victorian era,

and sometimes

the church is a little bit

influenced by this,

nobody ever talked

about sex.

Right?

That was like

off the table.

Don't talk about it.

But,

you know what?

People talked very openly

about death.

You're gonna die.

You would take children

to maybe,

you know,

you might,

growing up,

see the corpses

of people

who were,

had passed away.

Uh,

death was not

hidden away.

Uh,

people might die

in your home.

Right?

Now,

today it's the reverse.

Right?

American adults are,

you know,

advertisement,

TV,

sex is everywhere.

But we don't want

to talk about death.

And we want to keep

death behind closed doors

and somewhere else.

And we think that

not telling children

about death

at all

would be a good thing

because we're

protecting them.

I don't think

the Bible,

the Bible is both

discreet,

about these topics,

but also very

frank,

actually.

Uh,

talk about what they are,

God's plan for them,

and,

and the hope

that we have

as,

as Christians.

Uh,

it's not unusual

for young children

as they're exploring

the world

and their bodies

develop to say

things like,

I wish I was a boy

or I wish I was a girl.

That doesn't mean

a child has

gender dysphoria.

It probably means

they're attracted

to some quality

that they primarily

associate with

the opposite sex.

Right?

And it's good

to be able

to appreciate

qualities of

the opposite sex.

That's one quality

we want to inculcate

in our children.

Right?

Not to be

sexist,

you know,

not to be like,

oh,

I hate those girls,

I hate those boys.

No,

again,

that's probably

natural adult mental

stage,

but you've got to

help your children

get beyond that.

Right?

You don't want

that to grow up

into adulthood.

Right?

Last point,

both mothers

and fathers

should be involved

in conversations

with children

about gender

and sexuality.

This is not

a responsibility

that should be

delegated to

one parent alone.

Usually,

it's delegated

to the mother.

Dads,

take up

your responsibility.

And this is

a privilege.

It's a privilege

to be able

to talk with

your children

about these things.

And to talk

about God's design

with them

and have this

be a topic

that is part

of sort of

our ongoing

discipleship

with our children

as they grow.

And to be able

to receive

who they are

as a good gift

from God

and relate

in healthy ways

to people

of the same

or opposite sex.

All right.

Questions?

We've got ten minutes.

Ivor.

Well,

first of all,

I think this

is the best teaching

I've ever heard

about this.

and I think

you should

probably publish it.

It needs to be

out there.

But avoiding

the whole idea

of pronouns

is very good.

It's just someone's name

is what I was taught

when I was counseling.

Yep.

The name.

Just say that.

Yep.

Whatever they give you,

that's what you use.

Yep.

Yep.

You can certainly

do that.

That's,

that's,

yeah.

Yeah.

And avoid

Ms.

and,

you know,

all those

different

contractions

and just use

that whole name.

Yeah.

Or title.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

You can just use