Sermon
Shades of Creationism 2
Publisher transcript
Transcript
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All righty.
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All righty.
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Well, it is that time again.
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So why don't I open us up in prayer?
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Father God, thank you for this day.
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Thank you for allowing us this time to come together
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and to think about you and learn about you, Lord.
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I ask that this class would be edifying
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and that it would glorify you
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and that we would come away better able
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to love each other in unity.
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We love you, Lord, in Jesus' name. Amen.
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Okay, so as I'm one to do,
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let's start with preamble.
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Okay, so the preamble today
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is that I have tried my best
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to find easy and accessible ways
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to break these different views
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of interpreting Genesis up.
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And I'm trying to use language that makes sense
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and I'm attempting to use language
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that the adherents of this particular view use themselves.
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So, but unfortunately, it's not usually that easy.
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So I have had to make up some terms.
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But I've tried my best to stay to real terms when possible.
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And secondly, I will say that some of these terms
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are often used pejoratively,
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but that's not my intention in this class.
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My intention is clarity.
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So try to divest any of these terms
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that may have connotations to you.
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Just sort of ignore those.
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That's not the point.
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The point is to understand each other.
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So let's get going.
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So the first thing,
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I'm going to do a little crash course
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in the basics of hermeneutics.
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And I'm going to use,
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to start off with,
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just some of the insights
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that have come from studying communication
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in a field called speech act theory.
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So in speech act theory,
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they try to understand communication
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by dividing it into three different types,
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three different parts.
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So the three components of communication
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are one, the locution,
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two, the illocution,
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and three, the perlocution.
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Okay.
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Lots of acutions there,
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but really,
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these are just ways,
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fancy academic ways,
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of saying the locution
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is the form of the speech,
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the grammar,
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the syntax,
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that kind of thing.
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The illocution is the meaning
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that you're trying to get across,
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and the perlocution is actually
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the understanding of the audience.
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Okay.
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So these are the three parts of speech.
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But you know what?
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Actually, before I get going too far,
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do you have the time?
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903.
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903.
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Isn't that interesting?
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I asked you guys,
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do you have the time?
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And nobody said yes or no.
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Everybody is looking in their pockets
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trying to find their watch, right?
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Because they know
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that I'm not actually asking you,
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do you have the time?
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Like, are you aware
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of what the time is, right?
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Because according to the locution,
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the correct answer to that question is
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yes or no, right?
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You could not know what the time is.
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So the correct answer is either yes or no.
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But because of the context
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and because of the way I'm speaking it,
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we all know what I'm really asking.
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I'm really asking,
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can you tell me the time?
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Right?
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But nobody asks somebody,
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well, I guess some people ask people,
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do you know the time?
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Right?
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Or can you tell me the time?
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And so this is just an illustration
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of how sometimes the locution,
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the form of the sentence,
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doesn't equal the illocution,
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what I'm trying to convey to you.
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Right?
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And it's not just in this situation.
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I could change the tone of my voice
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and use the exact same words
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and have a totally different effect.
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So I first ask,
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do you have the time?
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And you're looking for your watch
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and you want to tell me what time it is.
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If I'm talking to my daughter,
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I say,
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do you know the time?
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Suddenly she's thinking,
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oh my goodness,
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I didn't know it's bedtime.
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I need to be going to sleep now, right?
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Or do you know what time it is?
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Right?
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Now it's like,
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oh, what's going on?
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Oh, it's the football game.
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Let's go sit down
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and watch the football game.
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Right?
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In none of these situations
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is the meaning of my communication
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the actual grammatical form
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of the communication.
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Okay?
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And this is important.
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Right?
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Because of biblical inerrancy.
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Right?
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As Christians,
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we affirm that the Bible
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is the word of God
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and is therefore inerrant,
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meaning all of its truth
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claims are affirmed
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and it is without error
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in any of these truth claims.
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Right?
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But,
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not all interpretations
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of the Bible
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are inerrant.
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Right?
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And so our goal,
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if we're looking for,
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so using some of our new terms,
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if we want to understand
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what we're talking about inerrancy,
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is that the illocution
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of the Bible
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is inerrant.
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The meaning of the Bible
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is always inerrant.
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It's true in all of its forms.
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However,
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sometimes the Bible
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is using idiom.
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Sometimes it's using
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poetic language.
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Sometimes it's using
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analogical language.
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Sometimes it's using
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scientific language.
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Right?
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And so it's our job
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as the audience
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to match our perlocution
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with the illocution
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of the Bible.
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Right?
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That's what we're trying
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to do in interpretation.
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Right?
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That's our job
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in hermeneutics.
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However,
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there are a lot
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of different
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philosophical
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predispositions
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and views
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that determine
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a lot of times
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how we are
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understanding the text.
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How it's hitting us.
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Okay?
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And this is especially
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relevant
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to
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our discussion
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here today
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about different
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interpretations
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of Genesis 1
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and how that relates
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to whether
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intelligent design
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or theistic evolution
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is a possible view.
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Right?
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Because today
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our goal
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is to understand
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the question
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why are we even
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talking about this?
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Right?
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Why are we even
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having a discussion
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about intelligent design
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and theistic evolution?
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Right?
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Because
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Genesis 1
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is so clear.
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But I'm going to
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talk about today
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how different Christians
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understand Genesis 1
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and how that either
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does not allow room
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for an evolutionary
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mechanism
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or allows room
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for.
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Right?
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And we'll talk
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more about that
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later.
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But let me first
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talk about
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sort of how
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I'm going to be
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framing our discussion
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today.
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Okay?
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Last week
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I talked about
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how the scientific
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method developed.
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Right?
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And part of that
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was Christians
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understanding that
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God is a will.
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God is a person
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who has a will
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and can do
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anything he wants
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in creation.
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And so
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because he's not
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constrained
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he has the ability
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to do things
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other than
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you might think.
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So we can't just
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reason by first
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principles
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what must be
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true of nature.
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We have to
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actually investigate
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nature to understand
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what it is that
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God did.
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So God is often
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described as having
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written two different
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books.
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We have one,
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the book of nature,
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which is called
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general revelation.
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and this is
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what we can learn
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about God
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just from observing
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nature by
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introspection,
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by reason,
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by philosophy,
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these kinds of
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things.
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Right?
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This is the kind
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of revelation
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that's generally
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applied to everyone
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in the whole world
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across time.
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Right?
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Everyone is in
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connection to
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the book of nature,
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to general revelation.
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He also wrote,
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most famously,
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the book of scripture.
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scripture.
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Right?
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Special revelation.
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This is what we can
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learn about God
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from his own
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self-revelation
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in his word.
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Right?
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And so,
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we know
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that we have
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these two kinds
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of books,
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but there are
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a variety
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of different ways
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to balance
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the book of nature
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and the book
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of scripture.
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What I'm going to
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call general
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and special revelation
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for the rest
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of the class,
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just because
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the book of
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is kind of long.
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So,
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we're going to
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talk about
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general and special.
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Special being
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scripture,
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general being
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nature.
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So,
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we as Christians
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hold scripture
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to be our
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highest authority.
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Right?
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Scripture is
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breathed out
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from God.
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It is self-revelation.
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It is the clearest
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form of communication
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between us
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and God.
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But that being said,
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scripture itself
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points to the
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trustworthiness
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of the book
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of nature,
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especially when
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it comes to
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the world.
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Right?
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It says in Romans
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that God's attributes
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are clearly seen
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in his works
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in nature.
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Right?
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And that the heavens
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declare the glory
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of God
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in the Psalms.
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So,
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we are expected
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as individuals,
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in fact,
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in Romans,
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we are held
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responsible
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for the truths
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that we can gain
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about God
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from nature.
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Right?
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So,
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scripture itself,
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which is our
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highest authority,
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has a high view
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of what we can
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understand from
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the book of nature.
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Right?
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So,
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how do we balance
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them?
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Right?
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Because what if
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what we learn
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in the book of nature
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from our understanding
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conflicts from
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what we learn
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in the book of
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scripture?
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Right?
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So,
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that is
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the first
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tension
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in creationism.
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Okay?
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So,
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I'm going to go
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through
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six different
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views,
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which I am
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going to describe
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in a spectrum.
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Six different
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views,
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philosophical
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views,
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about how
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we balance
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general
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and special
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revelation.
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Okay?
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Because this
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is going to be
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a major part
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of how we
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approach
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Genesis 1.
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Right?
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It's going to be
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a major part
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of how we
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are dialoguing
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with our
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fellow Christians
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who may have
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different views.
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Okay?
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And rarely,
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this is actually
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what we're talking
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about.
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Usually,
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we're talking
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about,
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we think we're
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talking about
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something else,
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but in actual
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fact,
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a lot of times
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we actually are
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talking about
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this.
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So,
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the first view
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is what I'm
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calling,
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and this is my
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own term,
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science skeptics.
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Okay?
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Now,
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science skeptics,
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again,
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I'm not using,
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I'm not trying
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to have
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pejorative
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understandings
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here,
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but just
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try to
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wipe away
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any connotation
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that you're
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feeling.
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But a
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science skeptics
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believe that
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special revelation
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is really
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the only
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authority.
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Right?
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Special revelation
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is the only
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authority,
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they are not
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really that
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sanguine about
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what we can
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actually learn
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from science.
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Okay?
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This is not
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a very common
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position,
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but it's
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characterized
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just by
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flippancy
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about what
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science can
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do.
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Right?
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They don't
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particularly
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think that
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it's a
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reliable method
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of understanding
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information,
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especially when
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it comes to
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understanding
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the origins
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of the world
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and the way
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that it works.
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So if I
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was to
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imagine
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a scale
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in which
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we are
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balancing
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general and
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special revelation,
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a science skeptic
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may be on
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this end of
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the spectrum.
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Right?
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So special
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revelation is
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the scales
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all the way
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down,
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and really
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general revelation
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is not really
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doing much
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in terms of
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their interpretation
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of the world
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or how they
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balance things.
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Okay?
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So this
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is
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again
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not a very
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common
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position,
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mainly because
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in our
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everyday life
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we're sort
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of living
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with the
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fruits of
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a lot of
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the endeavors
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of scientists,
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you know,
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our cell
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phones,
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our
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automobiles,
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etc.
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And so a lot
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of times it's
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sort of hard
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to be in
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this position
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cognitively,
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but it is a
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position I want
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us to be aware
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of.
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The next
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position is
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far more
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common.
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I'm calling
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this concordists,
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and so what
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concordists believe,
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and I'm not,
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so this is an
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actual term,
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I'm not making
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this up,
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so I'll try
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to make that
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clear as we
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go along.
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But concordists,
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they emphasize
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special revelation
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in understanding
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how nature
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came to be,
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but they also
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have a high
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view of what
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we can learn
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from general
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revelation.
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information.
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So another
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way of
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understanding
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this is that
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in general,
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these Christians
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believe that
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the Bible is
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intending to
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communicate
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scientific
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information at
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a certain
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level.
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And again,
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within the
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concordist group
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there's going to
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be disagreement
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about to what
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level.
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But in general,
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the reason I can
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fit these together
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is that they
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try in general
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to fit information
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that we get
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from science
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into a
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biblical framework,
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their biblical
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framework.
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So they say,
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okay,
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the Bible is
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communicating
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scientific
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information,
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and I have
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the scientific
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information over
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here,
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so therefore
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they must
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be the same.
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And so they
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are trying
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to fit
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their view
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of science
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into their
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biblical
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interpretation.
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And so,
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you know,
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mostly special
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revelation,
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but general
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revelation
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actually has
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some weight
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in this group.
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Okay?
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So there's a
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little bit more
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of a balance.
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This third
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group I'm
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calling
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harmonists,
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and I didn't
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make that up,
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but it's not
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very common.
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So a
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harmonist
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approach
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is they
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try not
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to privilege
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special or
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general revelation
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when they're
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explaining nature.
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Basically,
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they think
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that the
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goal is to
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understand these
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different
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areas of
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information on
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their own
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terms,
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right?
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And then
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when there
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is conflict
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apparent,
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they try to
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smooth it out.
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They try to
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harmonize those
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conflicts as
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they appear.
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But they,
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in general,
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don't try to
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use special
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revelation in
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applying it to
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general,
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and they don't
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use general
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revelation to
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apply it to
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special.
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They say that
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these are two
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groups that
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are talking
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to each
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other,
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but they
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have their
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own ways
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of communicating.
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And so
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you would
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imagine that
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this group
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would be
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special revelation,
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general revelation,
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sort of in
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parity when it
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comes to
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understanding
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nature,
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again.
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Because remember,
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I don't want to
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confuse anybody
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with these scales.
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As Christians,
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special revelation
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is the highest
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authority,
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right?
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But when it
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comes to
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understanding the
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way nature
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works and
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how it
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came to
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be,
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there was
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going to
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be a
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balance.
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So again,
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just to make
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that clear.
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Then we have
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accommodationists.
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This is in the
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term I came up
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with, and it's
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not actually
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entirely pejorative.
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So people who
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hold this view
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call themselves
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accommodationists,
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and this view,
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you can imagine
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them as sort of
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the reverse image
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of a concordance.
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they privilege
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general revelation
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when it comes to
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understanding nature.
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They have a high
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view of special
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revelation,
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and what can be
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learned about
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nature there.
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And so what is
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characteristic of
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this group is
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usually they try
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to de-emphasize
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the scientific
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implications of
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scripture,
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and try to focus
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more of their
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effort on
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understanding the
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sort of the
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spiritual or
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moral import,
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or theological
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import of
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scripture.
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And so you
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would say here
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when it comes
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to nature,
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they're weighting
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general revelation
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a little more
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strongly than
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special revelation.
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Right?
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And finally,
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the last group,
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because there are
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five groups,
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not six.
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The sixth group
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is just secret,
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it's just for me.
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The last group
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I'm calling
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biblical skeptics.
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Okay?
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I came up with
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this term.
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I don't think
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anybody would
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call themselves
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a biblical skeptic.
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But in terms
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of this
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discussion,
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they would
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hold that
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really general
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revelation is
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the only real
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authority when
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it comes to
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understanding nature.
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And that the
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Bible is not
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meant to convey
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scientific information
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at all.
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And it's really
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there for moral
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information,
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theological
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information,
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and is not
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a reliable
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scientific
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witness,
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as it were.
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And so,
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this group
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we would
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see here,
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general
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revelation
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is just
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kind of
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all the
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way down.
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So,
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with these
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five
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broad
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philosophical
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views in
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mind about
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how we
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balance
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general and
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special revelation,
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right?
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Let us
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go
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to
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scripture
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itself.
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Let's talk
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about
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what it is
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that we
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learn about
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creation,
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about
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origins in
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Genesis 1,
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2,
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and 3.
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And this is
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just going to
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be a very
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quick overview.
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I did an
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even quicker
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overview,
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like a year
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ago,
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actually,
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when we did
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the overviews
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of each of
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these books.
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So,
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I don't know
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which one is
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going to be
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quicker,
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but this is
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going to be
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pretty quick.
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So,
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let's talk
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about the
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biblical data
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that we have
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in front of
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us.
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Okay?
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So,
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we have
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Genesis 1.
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In the
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beginning,
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God created
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the heavens
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and the
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earth,
-
and the
-
earth was
-
without form
-
and void,
-
and there
-
was darkness
-
over the
-
surface of
-
the waters.
-
That's off
-
surface of the
-
deep.
-
Okay.
-
I've read it a
-
bunch of times,
-
so I kind of
-
remember.
-
And God
-
said,
-
let there be
-
light,
-
and separated
-
the light from
-
the darkness,
-
and that is
-
evening and
-
morning,
-
the first day.
-
one day.
-
Or,
-
depending on
-
how you
-
translate it,
-
one day.
-
Some people
-
put a lot of
-
emphasis on the
-
fact that there
-
is no definite
-
article on the
-
first five days.
-
I don't know.
-
Anyways,
-
the first day
-
sounds better.
-
And so,
-
on day one
-
in Genesis,
-
we see the
-
separation of
-
light versus
-
dark.
-
And so,
-
I'm filling
-
in this
-
table to
-
sort of
-
illustrate how
-
the six days
-
of creation
-
mirror each
-
other.
-
Right?
-
Because we
-
have the
-
first three
-
days,
-
which are
-
often described
-
as forming
-
days,
-
where God
-
is creating
-
the space
-
for these
-
different kingdoms,
-
these different
-
domains,
-
as you were.
-
Separating light
-
from dark.
-
On day two,
-
he's separating
-
the waters from
-
the sky,
-
so he's
-
creating waters,
-
he's creating
-
the air.
-
And then
-
day three,
-
he's separating
-
water from
-
the land.
-
And on the
-
land,
-
there is a
-
special creation
-
on day three,
-
the creation
-
of vegetation
-
on the land.
-
Okay?
-
So you can
-
imagine,
-
in this forming
-
column,
-
we have the
-
creation of
-
spaces,
-
the creation
-
of domains.
-
And then,
-
on the
-
filling days,
-
day four
-
through six,
-
we're going
-
to be filling
-
these different
-
domains with
-
their inhabitants.
-
Right?
-
So on day four,
-
we have the
-
creation of
-
the luminaries.
-
So we have
-
the sun,
-
the moon,
-
the stars.
-
These are
-
the inhabitants
-
of the light
-
and dark.
-
Right?
-
They are the
-
inhabitants of
-
day and night.
-
Moving forward,
-
on day five,
-
we have the
-
creation of
-
the fish
-
and the birds.
-
And the fish
-
and the birds,
-
they live in
-
the waters
-
and in the sky.
-
Right?
-
These are
-
the spaces
-
that God
-
has created
-
for these
-
creatures
-
on day two.
-
And on day six,
-
we have the
-
creation of
-
land creatures
-
in general,
-
animals and
-
bugs and
-
anything that
-
crawls and
-
creeps on the
-
land.
-
And a special
-
creation on
-
day six of
-
human beings
-
as separate
-
from the
-
animals.
-
And this
-
is the
-
pinnacle
-
of the
-
creation week.
-
Okay?
-
The entire
-
creation week
-
is building
-
up to
-
human beings.
-
Right?
-
And there's
-
a beautiful
-
part where
-
we get into
-
strictly poetic
-
language.
-
It says,
-
God created
-
them in his
-
image.
-
In the image
-
of God,
-
he created
-
them.
-
Male and
-
female,
-
he created
-
them.
-
Right?
-
So it's a
-
triple emphasis
-
on the creation
-
of human beings
-
in the creation
-
week as the
-
pinnacle of
-
his creation.
-
And in fact,
-
if you look at
-
the description
-
of the
-
luminaries,
-
why did God
-
create the
-
luminaries?
-
God created
-
the sun and
-
the moon to
-
watch over the
-
day and the
-
night and for
-
signs and for
-
seasons.
-
Right?
-
And who's
-
watching for
-
signs and
-
seasons?
-
That's us.
-
So we're
-
showing here
-
in the
-
creation account
-
the creation
-
of a world
-
meant for
-
human beings.
-
It's an
-
anthropomorphic
-
creation.
-
No.
-
Anthropocentric?
-
That's the
-
word.
-
Anthropocentric
-
creation.
-
We're the big
-
deal here.
-
In the
-
creation, God
-
is the big
-
deal and the
-
one doing it,
-
obviously.
-
And on day
-
seven, God
-
rests.
-
There's no
-
morning and
-
evening with
-
the implication
-
that God's
-
rest continues
-
on.
-
And so this is
-
God's Sabbath
-
and in the
-
same way that
-
God rests on
-
the seventh
-
day, we, and
-
delights in
-
his creation,
-
saying that it's
-
very good, we
-
as human beings
-
later in
-
Exodus and
-
in Deuteronomy,
-
we are expected
-
to rest on the
-
Sabbath day, on
-
the seventh day,
-
keep it holy to
-
glorify God in
-
his creation and
-
to worship
-
him.
-
Right?
-
So this is
-
sort of
-
showing us,
-
giving us a
-
pattern of
-
why it is
-
that on the
-
seventh day
-
that we rest
-
and glorify God
-
because on the
-
seventh day, God
-
rested.
-
Right?
-
That's the
-
direct implication
-
of Moses in
-
Exodus when he
-
is giving
-
Israelites the
-
law.
-
So this is
-
the major
-
biblical data
-
when it comes
-
to use a
-
weird term.
-
I'm a
-
scientist.
-
Sometimes I
-
use data
-
when I
-
shouldn't.
-
But anyways,
-
the biblical
-
information, the
-
biblical witness
-
in Genesis 1,
-
this is the
-
big, where
-
most of the
-
controversy lies
-
in terms of
-
interpreting
-
Genesis and
-
applying it to
-
the science and
-
faith discussion.
-
But I don't
-
think we should
-
give Genesis 2
-
and 3 short
-
shrift because
-
these are also
-
incredibly important
-
for understanding
-
how we parse
-
out these
-
different views.
-
So in
-
Genesis 2,
-
we zoom in
-
to discuss
-
the creation
-
of man.
-
Adam is made
-
specially by God
-
in his image.
-
He's given
-
dominion over
-
the animals.
-
He's tasked
-
with multiplying,
-
subduing the
-
earth.
-
We're given the
-
creation mandate.
-
And Eve is
-
presented to
-
Adam.
-
The first
-
marriage is
-
recorded.
-
God's plan for
-
creation is on
-
track to being
-
completed.
-
Now he has his
-
vice regents here
-
on earth to
-
subdue and to
-
participate in
-
God subduing and
-
ruling over the
-
earth.
-
But we're all
-
aware of what
-
happens in Genesis
-
3.
-
In Genesis 3,
-
the narrative
-
continues with the
-
great cataclysm that
-
we call the
-
fall.
-
The serpent
-
deceives Adam
-
and Eve to
-
disobey God
-
by eating from
-
the tree of the
-
knowledge of good
-
and evil, the
-
one tree that God
-
said do not eat
-
from.
-
And don't we know
-
as parents how
-
that is, right?
-
The one place you
-
tell them not to
-
go.
-
That's the place
-
they want to be.
-
Anyways, one of
-
these days I'll tell
-
them not to eat
-
broccoli and we'll
-
see if that works.
-
So this
-
disobedience results
-
in their death.
-
Not immediately,
-
but eventually.
-
Their death, they
-
are individually
-
cursed, the serpent,
-
the man, and the
-
woman.
-
And now the
-
relationship between
-
God and man has
-
been ruptured.
-
And there is
-
condemnation.
-
Although, we have
-
a promise of
-
redemption already
-
in the, pretty
-
much in the
-
middle of the
-
curses, right?
-
They have just
-
disobeyed God.
-
You know, they
-
have marred his
-
beautiful creation.
-
He's cursing them,
-
but in the middle
-
of the cursing is a
-
parenthetical, by
-
the way, I'll take
-
care of this, right?
-
So, this is our
-
biblical information.
-
If you guys remember
-
back to the
-
biblical theology
-
courses that we
-
were just going
-
through, the
-
creation, fall, and
-
the beginning of
-
redemption history is
-
a major theme in
-
all of these
-
different strands
-
that fly out from
-
Genesis throughout
-
the Bible.
-
These different
-
strands that are
-
connected and
-
ultimately find
-
their consummation
-
and conclusion
-
and climax,
-
let's say,
-
in Jesus.
-
Sorry, I was just
-
thinking that.
-
I just did three
-
C words and it
-
wasn't even on
-
purpose.
-
So, it's
-
important.
-
This is important.
-
And this is why
-
there is a
-
significant amount
-
of controversy over
-
the interpretation of
-
these passages,
-
because it's not
-
just how did God
-
create the world.
-
It is the sort of
-
the bedrock
-
assumptions and
-
set up for really
-
the entire biblical
-
worldview.
-
Right?
-
So, just remember
-
that when we're
-
having these
-
discussions with
-
each other, and
-
we're disagreeing
-
with each other on
-
these different
-
views, a lot of
-
the heat comes
-
from our innate
-
view, our innate
-
desire to protect
-
the witness of
-
Scripture.
-
Right?
-
Because that's
-
what we're told to
-
do in the Bible,
-
to protect the
-
witness of Scripture
-
and to preserve
-
the witness
-
handed down by
-
this.
-
I don't know.
-
I'm trying to
-
quote a verse, and
-
it's not working.
-
Yeah, there you
-
go.
-
That's what I'm
-
going for.
-
The faith once
-
for all.
-
Yeah, exactly.
-
Delivered to the
-
saints.
-
Okay.
-
So, this is our
-
biblical data.
-
This is what
-
everybody's reading.
-
Okay?
-
These, I'm about
-
to go through a
-
variety of
-
different interpretations
-
of Genesis 1,
-
with the implications
-
for 2 and 3, but
-
usually a lot of
-
the discussion is on
-
Genesis 1.
-
And so, we all
-
don't have different
-
Bibles, right?
-
We're all reading the
-
same Bible.
-
And so, it's
-
important to take
-
into consideration
-
that we're all
-
looking at the same
-
stuff.
-
And the question is,
-
how do we
-
understand it?
-
What is Genesis
-
attempting to
-
convey to us?
-
So, let me start
-
with probably one
-
of the more
-
famous and
-
well-known
-
views, which is
-
young earth
-
creation
-
interpretations.
-
I'm going to
-
abbreviate that
-
Y-E-C.
-
I'm not entirely
-
sure why, because
-
I think this is
-
the only time I
-
use it.
-
But the young
-
earth creation
-
view basically
-
takes the face
-
value understanding
-
of Genesis as
-
we read it.
-
You know, as
-
modern people, we
-
read Genesis 1,
-
and there's an
-
initial understanding
-
of what we see in
-
our mind when we
-
read it, and that
-
is generally what
-
the young earth
-
creation view
-
attempts to put
-
forward is what
-
you read is what
-
you get, basically.
-
They take a face
-
value understanding.
-
They believe that
-
the creation account
-
is straight history
-
and is meant to
-
be understood that
-
way.
-
And further, usually
-
they believe that
-
science done
-
correctly will prove
-
that the earth and
-
universe is in fact
-
young as is
-
described in
-
scripture.
-
Now, of course,
-
you may be thinking,
-
oh, Genesis 1
-
doesn't give us an
-
age of the earth.
-
But if you take
-
Genesis 1 as
-
straight history,
-
and then you add
-
up all the
-
genealogical years
-
going through Genesis
-
all the way up to
-
Abraham, you get an
-
age range, right?
-
So 6,000 to 10,000
-
depending on how you
-
add it up.
-
So this is, they
-
are believing, this
-
is the witness of
-
scripture, and
-
therefore the earth
-
and universe must in
-
fact be young, and
-
that science
-
incorrectly will show
-
that it's young.
-
This is the young
-
earth view.
-
Oh, man, it's
-
snowing.
-
That's beautiful.
-
The second group, I'm
-
going to put these
-
into four different
-
groups, and these
-
groupings are largely
-
my creation, although
-
I am cribbing off of a
-
variety of different
-
sources.
-
But this next group I'm
-
calling the ancient
-
science interpretations.
-
And what these groups
-
have in common, I
-
thought that was
-
thunder, I was like.
-
So, yeah, exactly.
-
Oh, thank you.
-
Wouldn't that be nice?
-
I would love that.
-
All right.
-
So I've grouped these
-
under this heading of
-
ancient science because
-
they share in common the
-
belief that the Genesis
-
account is intending to
-
convey what God did and
-
how God created the
-
world, and that
-
understanding it
-
correctly, it will fit
-
with the sort of the
-
modern scientific view
-
of the world.
-
So the first group
-
in this group
-
is the appearance
-
of age idea.
-
And so basically what
-
the appearance of age
-
interpretation says is
-
that the young
-
earth understanding
-
of the Bible is
-
correct, except
-
that the world
-
does appear old.
-
but it is merely
-
appearing old
-
because it was
-
created mature.
-
Right?
-
And so you can see
-
that there is, you
-
may be thinking, what's
-
the difference between
-
that and young
-
earth creationism?
-
What young earth
-
creationists would
-
believe that science
-
done correctly will
-
show that the earth
-
is young and the
-
universe is young.
-
A person who takes
-
the appearance of age
-
approach would say,
-
I am taking the
-
witness of scripture
-
at face value, and I
-
recognize that science
-
seems to indicate that
-
the earth is old, and
-
the way I reconcile
-
that is by positing
-
that the earth is
-
merely appears old.
-
Similar, and they
-
use this example,
-
similarly, God created
-
Adam as a full adult
-
human being.
-
Right?
-
You know, do they have
-
a belly button?
-
You know, who knows?
-
Right?
-
But the idea is, Adam
-
was created adult, and
-
so we can imagine a
-
scenario in which the
-
universe is created, in
-
a sense, adult.
-
Right?
-
And fully grown, and
-
that, when we do
-
science, it sort of
-
appears as if it's old,
-
but really it's not.
-
That's one view.
-
The next view in the
-
ancient science
-
interpretations is the
-
gap theory.
-
So basically, the gap
-
theory says that
-
Genesis 1 to 2,
-
sorry, Genesis 1, 1
-
to 2, describes sort
-
of the initial creation
-
event, and when it
-
says that the earth
-
was formless and void,
-
that the correct way
-
to understand that is
-
to say the earth
-
became formless and
-
void, and so the
-
idea is that God
-
initially created the
-
whole world, the whole
-
universe.
-
This is where we get
-
all of the age that
-
we see implicated in
-
science, but then due
-
to the fall of Satan,
-
this world that God
-
created initially falls
-
into dissonance,
-
disrepair, it becomes
-
formless and void, and
-
there's extinction
-
events on earth, etc.
-
And then in Genesis 1,
-
3, and continuing in
-
the Genesis account, we
-
find the straight
-
history of how God
-
recreated the world.
-
He created the world,
-
he re-separated things,
-
he created the light
-
and the dark, and the
-
sun, and all these
-
things, and that the
-
earth is in fact, or
-
the universe is in
-
fact very old, but
-
Genesis is describing
-
the straight history.
-
Does that make sense
-
to everybody?
-
I will mention that the
-
gap theory sounds really
-
good to our ears, but
-
most biblical scholars,
-
the reason that it's not
-
very popular is most
-
biblical scholars don't
-
find the grammatical
-
connection in verses 1 to 2
-
to 3 as being legitimate,
-
so saying that it became
-
formless and void.
-
A lot of scholars will say
-
it doesn't actually say
-
that grammatically.
-
The better way to
-
understand it is the way
-
that we translate it, but
-
this is a view, it
-
actually was very popular
-
like 150 years ago.
-
But there are still people
-
who would affirm this, and
-
they have their own
-
arguments.
-
The last of the ancient
-
science interpretations that
-
I'm putting forward, I just
-
want to make it clear that
-
this is not exhaustive.
-
I'm only showing you a,
-
what I hope to be a
-
representative sample of a
-
lot of the interpretations
-
of Genesis, but there's
-
like a whole bunch, way,
-
way more than this.
-
Actually, not that much
-
more.
-
Let me like double.
-
But I feel like this is,
-
this covers the ground.
-
A lot of them are sort of
-
the nuances, they're very
-
close to each other.
-
So the third one is we have
-
the day-age theory, and this
-
takes the Genesis account to
-
be describing how God
-
created, but takes the less
-
common understanding of the
-
word day, when we're talking
-
about one day, a second day,
-
a third day, evening,
-
morning, etc.
-
They take the word day to
-
indicate a long period of
-
time.
-
Now, in the Bible, there are
-
usages of the word day in
-
the, that's used in Genesis
-
1 to describe a long period
-
of time, like the day of the
-
Lord, right?
-
These are usages of the word
-
day that indicate a long
-
period of time, or just an
-
indeterminate amount of time,
-
right?
-
And so a day-age theorist
-
would say that Genesis 1 is
-
straight history, but we're
-
meant to understand the day
-
described in these different
-
days as a long period of time
-
and age, right?
-
Which is how we get this view.
-
But they, this allows them to
-
take sort of a mostly literal
-
approach to understanding
-
Genesis, but allows for the
-
universe to be very old,
-
right?
-
So you can see that these three
-
different views, they are
-
taking some of the information
-
that we get from general
-
revelation, and they are saying
-
that the Bible is attempting to
-
convey this information in the
-
text, right?
-
Which is why I call it ancient
-
science, right?
-
The Bible is telling us something
-
scientific.
-
This third group, creation poem
-
interpretation.
-
So I grouped these two together
-
because they both posit that the
-
Genesis is using figures of
-
speech and literary conventions to
-
convey God's activity in creation.
-
And so these views usually allow for a
-
variety of different hows of how God
-
created, but they all are indicating
-
that the Genesis passage is telling
-
us what God did in creation.
-
Okay?
-
Does that make sense?
-
So the first view I'm going to talk
-
about is the analogical day theory.
-
In this view, God is using analogical
-
language to compare himself, his activity
-
in creation to a craftsman and his work
-
week, right?
-
So he's using the language of just like
-
a craftsman in his work week does
-
this, God as the ultimate craftsman
-
makes the entire world and the last day
-
rested.
-
So it's using analogical language in the
-
sense that it's describing what God
-
actually did.
-
He did create the light and the dark and
-
the sun and the moon and et cetera,
-
but it's using figures of speech to
-
describe it.
-
And so in that sense, we're not wedded to
-
the specific hows of God is, of how God
-
is doing these different things.
-
In fact, we're not necessarily saying that
-
the creation week is using chronological
-
time and maybe taking things out of order
-
to make a theological point, but it's still
-
saying what God actually did.
-
This other group is the framework view
-
crowd.
-
This framework view relies heavily on what I
-
described in Genesis 1, which is that
-
symmetry in the creation account, in the
-
forming and the filling and the Sabbath.
-
This is basically what everybody acknowledges
-
is going on in the Bible.
-
And so they say, well, based on that,
-
Genesis 1 is using a literary framework
-
to describe God's creation.
-
It's not really trying to tell us anything
-
about how God did any of this stuff.
-
It's not trying to tell us chronology or
-
what came after what.
-
It's just saying it's using a literary
-
framework.
-
There's really no better way to say it.
-
That's why they call it the framework view.
-
And so Genesis is outlining the structures
-
of creation and what is going on, God's
-
creation of the different domains and the
-
people who live in the domains, but it's not
-
really telling us how he's creating these in
-
detail.
-
Okay.
-
Does that make sense?
-
Okay.
-
And finally, this last group I'm calling the
-
religion only interpretations.
-
And basically this group I'm putting together
-
because they don't believe that Genesis is
-
meant to describe what or how creation happened,
-
but really the who and the why, right?
-
So these interpretations are describing who God
-
is and why God is creating the world.
-
And it's using different, and we'll see,
-
different ways of understanding what Genesis
-
is conveying in the what, but in no case is the
-
what meant to be taken as history.
-
So the first view here is the proclamation day view.
-
So in this view, God in his throne room is
-
proclaiming his acts of creation sort of in a
-
transcendent state.
-
He's in his throne room.
-
He is proclaiming what he is doing in creation to
-
the angels in heaven.
-
And it really has no correspondence to actual
-
history.
-
It's just saying that God is saying, I'm going to
-
create the sun.
-
I'm going to create light and dark, et cetera.
-
And then on earth, as it is actually carried out,
-
it's going to look completely different.
-
So we're meant to understand that in Genesis,
-
we're reading a description of God in his throne room
-
describing what he's going to do.
-
That's the proclamation day view.
-
The kingdom temple view.
-
So this view says that God in Genesis 1 is
-
indicating a literal week in history in which God
-
is inaugurating his creation.
-
Right?
-
So God created however it is that he created,
-
but in a week in the real world, God is saying,
-
I am inaugurating the light versus the dark.
-
I am inaugurating this as my kingdom or temple,
-
depending on how you understand these verses.
-
Right?
-
So I'm inaugurating this part of creation to be this
-
function in my temple, in my kingdom.
-
Again, it's not meant to actually convey anything
-
about the natural world.
-
It's not telling you how God did anything.
-
He's just saying that this is what God did and this
-
is why, or this is who God is and why it's there
-
and why it's describing this way is to help us
-
in worshiping him.
-
And finally, believe it or not, this is the last one,
-
the alternative cosmology view.
-
Okay?
-
So this view says that Moses is actually borrowing
-
the word picture and narratives of the surrounding
-
cultures, you know, in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Canaan.
-
And by borrowing from these different sources,
-
he is attempting to contrast the God of the Bible
-
from the false gods.
-
Right?
-
And so see how they're similar, but look how they're different.
-
That's the idea.
-
Right?
-
And so he's trying to present to Israel
-
how their God is different from the gods
-
in the surrounding cultures,
-
but is not really challenging the ancient world picture
-
that they had in their mind, you know,
-
of the world on columns, on a flat place
-
with the mountains holding up the sky,
-
all these different ideas that we have
-
that the ancient people had about
-
what the physical world was really like.
-
So he's saying he's not challenging that.
-
He's using that word picture as a way
-
to emphasize the true God
-
versus the false gods around them.
-
Okay.
-
So that was a lot.
-
But how are we going to compare
-
all these different views?
-
Right?
-
How, what makes us compelled
-
by one view versus another?
-
So what I'm going to do here
-
is I'm going to go through the general categories.
-
I'm not going to go through every single one again,
-
but the general categories,
-
and I'm going to see how those earlier groups
-
that we talked to, those philosophical groups,
-
how they are usually,
-
how they cash out
-
in these different views of creation
-
and what makes them open
-
to these different views.
-
Right?
-
So in general,
-
the young earth creationist interpretations
-
are held by
-
either the science skeptics
-
who say, really,
-
we're not really meant to understand
-
anything from science,
-
or we can't really.
-
And concordists, right?
-
Believe that the,
-
that the biblical account
-
is attempting to give us scientific information
-
and we should,
-
we'll be learning about that
-
and we should be applying science
-
to understand the Bible in that way.
-
Right?
-
These ancient science interpretations,
-
these are going to be held
-
primarily by concordists.
-
They believe that the Bible
-
is attempting to convey
-
scientific information
-
and that we as Christians
-
are meant to use
-
the information from general revelation
-
and special revelation
-
and make them concord.
-
In the creation poem interpretation,
-
you're going to find a wide variety
-
of different people
-
who find this convincing,
-
from concordists
-
all the way to accommodationists
-
with harmonists
-
sort of in the middle
-
as they always are.
-
And so,
-
in this view,
-
they,
-
they may believe
-
that the Bible
-
is attempting to convey
-
poetic information,
-
a concordist might,
-
but believe that it's still
-
conveying scientific information
-
at a certain point.
-
Or you may be
-
an accommodationist
-
who says that,
-
you know,
-
it's not really meant
-
to give us any information
-
about the world
-
as it really is,
-
but it's using figures of speech.
-
Right?
-
And then finally,
-
in the religion-only interpretation
-
you're going to find
-
pretty much those groups
-
that,
-
that weigh general revelation
-
much higher
-
in the harmonist
-
to biblical skeptics view.
-
And I will say that
-
when we're looking at
-
these different
-
ways of understanding,
-
this philosophical,
-
these philosophical views
-
of understanding
-
nature and creation,
-
I try not to put my own views
-
in the class.
-
I'm trying to help us
-
understand it,
-
but I will say
-
as an editor
-
that I think
-
that the science skeptics view
-
and the biblical skeptics view
-
are not well acquainted
-
with the Bible,
-
basically.
-
I think that those views
-
are difficult to hold
-
when taking the Bible seriously
-
or taking science seriously.
-
If you take the Bible seriously,
-
you should be taking science
-
at least a little seriously,
-
like we talked earlier, right?
-
So I think these are
-
difficult to hold,
-
but there are people
-
who hold them,
-
so this is helping,
-
trying to help us
-
to understand.
-
So let's go through.
-
You're talking to one
-
of your fellow Christians,
-
and you hear them
-
talking about
-
the kingdom temple view
-
of their interpretation
-
of Genesis 1,
-
and maybe they're
-
somewhere on this spectrum,
-
right?
-
In their views
-
of how you balance
-
these things.
-
and you are
-
over here,
-
right?
-
Your visceral reaction
-
to discussing with them
-
is that you believe
-
that they are compromising
-
the authority of Scripture
-
in their interpretations
-
of the Bible
-
because they're weighing
-
general revelation more,
-
right?
-
So you're saying,
-
look,
-
special revelation,
-
it's getting lighter,
-
right?
-
It feels like
-
they are accommodating,
-
they are compromising
-
their view,
-
and I think that
-
may contribute
-
to that feeling
-
of,
-
oh no,
-
I need,
-
we are meant
-
to protect
-
the witness of Scripture,
-
and I feel like
-
you're copping out,
-
essentially,
-
on this,
-
right?
-
And it goes
-
the other direction,
-
right?
-
If you're over here,
-
and you hear
-
a group over here
-
talking,
-
you may be thinking,
-
wow,
-
do you not care
-
what the Bible says
-
about what we can learn
-
from nature?
-
Do you think that
-
really there's nothing
-
that we can learn?
-
So there's almost
-
a friction there
-
about almost
-
like an anti-intellectualism.
-
You're like,
-
oh man,
-
they don't really,
-
they don't really get it,
-
you know,
-
they're not thinking
-
very clearly,
-
et cetera,
-
right?
-
But oftentimes,
-
these are in the background,
-
right?
-
In our mind,
-
and we're really dealing
-
with the interpretations,
-
right?
-
We're talking about
-
Genesis 1,
-
we're talking about
-
the best way
-
to translate it,
-
et cetera,
-
when in reality,
-
a lot of the heat,
-
a lot of the rancor
-
is coming from this.
-
I don't believe
-
that you are taking
-
the Bible seriously,
-
or I don't believe
-
that you're taking
-
the nature seriously,
-
right?
-
And that is what's
-
causing the discussion.
-
So what I would suggest
-
when we're having
-
these discussions
-
is bring it up,
-
right?
-
Bring up these,
-
you don't have to
-
use this language,
-
but bring it up
-
and say,
-
this is what I believe
-
about how we are
-
meant to understand
-
nature in special
-
revelation,
-
you know?
-
Think about these
-
different views.
-
Think about,
-
I'm sure as you're
-
sitting here,
-
you're listening to me
-
talk and you're saying,
-
ah, wow,
-
I identify more
-
with this group
-
than with another group,
-
right?
-
Maybe this is the
-
first time you've
-
ever thought about it.
-
But it's important
-
for us to think
-
about it because
-
this other group
-
is going to have
-
a different view
-
and as Orthodox
-
Christians,
-
as many people
-
who hold these
-
views are,
-
you're not going
-
to have a productive
-
dialogue if we're,
-
we are questioning
-
each other's motives,
-
right?
-
So that's my goal
-
in this entire class
-
is how can I bring
-
the information
-
from these debates
-
to us in a way
-
that can help us
-
to maintain unity
-
in the body,
-
okay?
-
And so you may be
-
asking yourself,
-
what on earth
-
does this have to do
-
with the telenovels
-
design of theistic
-
evolution,
-
right?
-
I thought this is
-
what this class
-
is about.
-
Well, you'll find
-
that it is actually
-
central,
-
okay?
-
Because if you,
-
if you,
-
your view of
-
Scripture
-
as an Orthodox
-
Christian,
-
when we believe
-
that Scripture
-
is our highest
-
authority,
-
our interpretation
-
of Scripture
-
provides the boundary
-
line of what is
-
possible,
-
what is possibly
-
true,
-
right?
-
It creates a window
-
in which certain
-
things can be true
-
and other things
-
have to be false,
-
right?
-
This is just how,
-
just how it works.
-
And so,
-
if you take
-
a,
-
either a young
-
earth creationist
-
or maybe an,
-
a ancient science
-
interpretation
-
of the Bible,
-
oftentimes,
-
this interpretation
-
of the Bible
-
essentially makes
-
any kind of
-
evolutionary mechanism
-
untenable,
-
right?
-
It's un,
-
it's unimaginable.
-
The Bible is,
-
the witness of the
-
Bible is this,
-
and therefore,
-
any kind of
-
evolution
-
is not going to be
-
allowed
-
for Christians.
-
And you often hear
-
Christians talking
-
this way,
-
who hold these
-
kinds of views,
-
right?
-
the Bible clearly
-
says that evolution
-
is impossible,
-
or et cetera.
-
And they may be
-
right,
-
right?
-
But that's,
-
that's them talking
-
from their
-
philosophical position
-
based on their
-
interpretation and
-
what is possible
-
and what is not
-
possible.
-
You know,
-
flipping the,
-
flipping the coin
-
here,
-
if you have
-
a creation poem
-
or religion-only
-
interpretation of the
-
Bible,
-
that really,
-
logically,
-
at least,
-
leaves open the
-
possibility of some
-
sort of evolutionary
-
mechanism,
-
right?
-
Because the Bible
-
isn't saying it's
-
not happening,
-
right?
-
So it could have
-
been happening,
-
right?
-
We're just saying
-
that in these
-
different interpretations,
-
we're just saying
-
Genesis isn't telling
-
us one way or the
-
other whether some
-
sort of evolutionary
-
mechanism or not
-
happened,
-
right?
-
So you can imagine
-
somebody who is a
-
theistic evolutionist
-
who holds one of
-
these interpretations
-
and they have a
-
sort of a different
-
window of what is
-
allowable,
-
right?
-
And so these are
-
going to be,
-
these are going to be
-
the first barrier in
-
any conversation
-
between Christians
-
on intelligent
-
design or
-
theistic evolution,
-
what is allowable,
-
right?
-
And so having a
-
discussion of what
-
I believe is
-
allowable based on
-
Genesis is a
-
helpful discussion,
-
right?
-
And doing it
-
without,
-
you know,
-
attacking each
-
other and being,
-
you know,
-
generally mean.
-
Not to say you
-
can't be vigorous,
-
you know?
-
Me and my
-
brothers,
-
I have eight,
-
I have,
-
no,
-
I don't have
-
eight brothers,
-
I have six
-
brothers.
-
Not a huge
-
difference,
-
right?
-
But,
-
you know,
-
we disagree,
-
we argue back
-
and forth,
-
you know,
-
sometimes vehemently,
-
no blows are
-
thrown,
-
but we can argue
-
rigorously without
-
declaring anathema
-
on each other.
-
That's the goal,
-
right?
-
So,
-
that is today's
-
class.
-
How do you
-
balance general
-
and special
-
revelation?
-
What does that
-
allow?
-
What interpretations
-
of Genesis do
-
these different
-
philosophical views
-
tend to support?
-
And how that can
-
help us in our
-
discussions with
-
each other.
-
So,
-
next class,
-
I'm going to be
-
actually comparing
-
intelligent design and
-
theistic evolution
-
on the merits,
-
hopefully.
-
and then talking
-
about the second
-
tension in
-
creationism,
-
which is really
-
the philosophical
-
position that is
-
going to decide
-
between,
-
well,
-
actually,
-
I shouldn't say
-
that.
-
It's going to be
-
the philosophical
-
position that
-
predisposes you
-
to find one more
-
compelling than the
-
other.
-
Although,
-
that may be a
-
little more
-
simplistic.
-
We'll talk about
-
it next week.
-
But with that,
-
anybody have any
-
questions?
-
Questions?
-
It indicates
-
last week's
-
recording,
-
because I had
-
the mic,
-
was the best
-
we ever got.
-
So,
-
appreciate your
-
patience with
-
this process.
-
As a scientist,
-
I wonder,
-
how do you
-
evaluate this
-
current science?
-
And,
-
because the
-
science today is
-
different than the
-
science 50 years
-
ago,
-
different than the
-
science 100 years
-
ago,
-
whereas God's
-
word is
-
infallible,
-
will always be
-
correct,
-
but not to say
-
that their
-
intention,
-
but how do you
-
have a healthy
-
skepticism of,
-
as a scientist,
-
and evaluating
-
the evidence
-
and what
-
general revelation
-
has to teach
-
us.
-
So,
-
how do I
-
have a healthy
-
skepticism?
-
Very easily.
-
By being a
-
scientist.
-
If you,
-
if you,
-
I don't know
-
how many,
-
if there are
-
any scientists
-
in the crowd
-
here,
-
but once you
-
get into
-
science,
-
you start to
-
see,
-
like,
-
oh,
-
wow,
-
okay,
-
so people are
-
wrong a lot,
-
all the time.
-
And people
-
are,
-
are not,
-
you know,
-
we try to
-
imagine science
-
as sort of
-
this ivory
-
tower sort
-
of deal
-
where,
-
you know,
-
you have
-
old,
-
wizened men
-
discussing
-
with each
-
other in
-
clear,
-
you know,
-
calming tones,
-
but in
-
reality,
-
you know,
-
human beings
-
are the same
-
everywhere,
-
right?
-
So you may
-
have a,
-
a advanced
-
degree in
-
some sort
-
of,
-
in some
-
scientific
-
endeavor,
-
but you're
-
going to have
-
your own
-
predispositions,
-
your own
-
biases,
-
your own
-
reasons for
-
wanting this
-
specific
-
interpretation
-
of data
-
to be true,
-
right?
-
I don't,
-
I can't tell
-
how many
-
times I've,
-
I've listened
-
to a talk
-
from somebody
-
who is
-
arguing for
-
some sort
-
of interpretation
-
of the
-
evidence,
-
and is
-
primarily weighing
-
whether it's
-
true or not
-
on whether he
-
discovered it
-
or not,
-
right?
-
So,
-
and next
-
week,
-
I'm going
-
to start
-
off similarly
-
to how I
-
started off
-
today about
-
understanding
-
hermeneutics
-
and what
-
are we
-
looking for,
-
right?
-
There is a
-
meaning to
-
scripture as
-
Christians that
-
we believe is
-
100% true.
-
Our job is
-
to align our
-
understanding of
-
scripture to
-
that meaning,
-
right?
-
And that is our
-
goal as Christians
-
in the same way
-
in the sciences,
-
okay?
-
A lot of,
-
and this is
-
causing a lot
-
of confusion
-
for non-scientists,
-
and I don't
-
think it's
-
because of
-
their ignorance,
-
I think it's
-
because a lot
-
of scientists
-
are bad
-
communicators
-
or want to
-
inflate their
-
own sense of
-
value,
-
but I digress
-
in the sense
-
that there is
-
a reasonable
-
way that we
-
can look at
-
the evidence
-
and withhold
-
judgment
-
about
-
necessarily
-
what the
-
interpretation
-
of that
-
evidence is,
-
right?
-
It's not like
-
science is
-
different than
-
other fields
-
in which the
-
correct answer
-
just presents
-
itself,
-
you know,
-
you're looking
-
in a microscope
-
and it says,
-
this is the
-
right way to
-
understand this,
-
right?
-
It doesn't
-
happen that
-
way.
-
We see
-
evidence,
-
we collect
-
evidence using
-
specific devices
-
that are meant
-
to collect
-
specific kinds
-
of evidence,
-
and then using
-
that,
-
trying to
-
pool it,
-
we get
-
what we
-
think is an
-
interpretation
-
that makes
-
sense of
-
everything.
-
That's the
-
idea.
-
And yes,
-
you're right,
-
over the history
-
of science,
-
there have
-
been wild,
-
wildly wrong
-
interpretations of
-
the evidence,
-
but what I
-
will say is
-
there has
-
rarely ever
-
been a
-
situation in
-
which the
-
evidence
-
itself has
-
been wrong.
-
Okay?
-
So that's the
-
distinction I want
-
to make.
-
Interpretation
-
versus evidence.
-
Right?
-
Okay.
-
I just want
-
to point out
-
that the same
-
question could be
-
asked of the
-
Bible.
-
Our
-
interpretations
-
of the Bible
-
have,
-
you know,
-
to put it
-
politely,
-
say,
-
matured over
-
the years.
-
You know,
-
so I,
-
you know,
-
I grew up
-
in,
-
you know,
-
the creation,
-
you know,
-
seven-day.
-
Right,
-
yeah.
-
Right,
-
and then as
-
I've matured
-
and,
-
you know,
-
heard the
-
different evidence,
-
largely because
-
I've been parts
-
of,
-
you know,
-
different,
-
you know,
-
faith communities.
-
Right.
-
Been able to
-
go,
-
well,
-
you know,
-
it's plausible,
-
you know,
-
and see
-
merit for
-
all the
-
views.
-
Yeah.
-
Yeah,
-
I think it's,
-
sorry,
-
go ahead.
-
Yeah,
-
so I'm just
-
saying,
-
like,
-
you know,
-
you can ask,
-
you know,
-
somebody who
-
was,
-
like,
-
all on the
-
science end
-
of things
-
could ask
-
a Christian
-
the same
-
question,
-
is my main
-
point,
-
is that on
-
both sides
-
of the aisle
-
on this
-
issue,
-
we need to
-
be open
-
to maybe
-
we're wrong.
-
Yeah,
-
and I think
-
that's a good
-
point.
-
What I was
-
trying to get
-
across in the
-
beginning of
-
this class
-
is the
-
difference
-
between the
-
biblical
-
information that
-
we have,
-
that we all
-
share,
-
and our
-
different
-
interpretations
-
of the text,
-
how we
-
understand them.
-
Right?
-
There is a
-
difference.
-
Now,
-
I will say
-
that scripture
-
does have a
-
leg up on
-
science,
-
because scripture
-
is verbal
-
communication,
-
and verbal
-
communication
-
is,
-
I would
-
say,
-
lends itself
-
to
-
perspicuity.
-
Am I saying
-
that right?
-
Yes.
-
So I can't
-
even say it,
-
I'll explain
-
what it means.
-
Basically,
-
it lends
-
itself to
-
understanding,
-
ease of
-
understanding.
-
Right?
-
It's easier,
-
so I mean,
-
we all experience
-
this,
-
right?
-
It's easier
-
for us to be
-
taught something
-
than for us
-
to go out
-
and learn
-
it for
-
ourselves.
-
That's the
-
whole reason
-
we have
-
teachers,
-
right?
-
And so if
-
we think
-
of the
-
Bible as
-
a teacher,
-
then just
-
in the sense
-
that it is
-
verbal
-
communication,
-
it has a
-
leg up in
-
terms of
-
ease of
-
understanding,
-
right?
-
But you're
-
right in
-
the sense
-
that we
-
as the
-
audience still
-
have a job
-
of interpreting,
-
right?
-
As is true
-
in any kind
-
of communication.
-
I would say
-
science has
-
one leg
-
away in
-
terms of
-
the effort
-
that's required
-
to understand
-
what's going
-
on.
-
But no
-
matter how
-
it is,
-
you're never
-
going to have
-
the correct
-
understanding
-
of something
-
just plopped
-
into your
-
head,
-
right?
-
Outside of
-
the work
-
of the
-
Holy Spirit,
-
right?
-
And that's
-
part of what
-
we believe
-
as Reformed
-
Christians
-
is that
-
the
-
perspicuity
-
of Scripture
-
is a
-
result of
-
the Holy
-
Spirit
-
working in
-
our hearts
-
to understand
-
what's going
-
on.
-
And that
-
generally
-
applies to
-
the big
-
major themes
-
of the
-
Bible,
-
redemption,
-
the nature
-
of Jesus,
-
etc.
-
That's not
-
to say
-
that you're
-
not a
-
holy
-
Christian
-
if you have
-
difficulty
-
understanding
-
passages.
-
Everybody
-
does,
-
right?
-
There are
-
passages that
-
are difficult
-
for anybody
-
to
-
understand
-
no matter
-
where you
-
are on
-
the creation
-
spectrum,
-
right?
-
But yeah,
-
that's something
-
we have to
-
be aware
-
of.
-
I think
-
especially
-
in some
-
circles in
-
the church,
-
there is
-
an over
-
reliance
-
or an
-
over
-
estimation
-
of the
-
clearness
-
of Scripture,
-
right?
-
And that's
-
something we
-
have to guard
-
against.
-
Where would
-
you put
-
a non-overlapping
-
magisteria
-
sort of
-
view
-
on your
-
little
-
spectrum?
-
So that
-
would be,
-
I would
-
say,
-
that would
-
probably
-
fit best
-
in the
-
religion-only
-
interpretations
-
of the
-
Bible.
-
Basically
-
saying that
-
the Bible
-
and science
-
are
-
completely
-
different
-
epistemic
-
endeavors,
-
right?
-
Totally
-
different ways
-
of knowing,
-
and therefore
-
because they're
-
totally different
-
ways of knowing,
-
they never
-
overlap,
-
right?
-
There is no
-
possible way
-
that Scripture
-
could ever be
-
contradicted by
-
science,
-
and vice
-
versa,
-
right?
-
They're
-
completely
-
separate.
-
I think
-
that that
-
is not a
-
high enough
-
view of
-
Scripture,
-
and I think
-
the reason
-
for that
-
is because
-
Scripture
-
itself
-
puts forward
-
itself as
-
history.
-
So by
-
using the
-
non-overlapping
-
magisteria,
-
you wouldn't
-
be able to
-
say that,
-
oh,
-
Jesus really
-
existed in
-
real life,
-
in history,
-
right?
-
Because the
-
study of
-
history is
-
its own
-
little thing,
-
and we
-
can't really
-
use the
-
study of
-
history to
-
apply itself
-
to Scripture.
-
And maybe
-
they would
-
say,
-
no,
-
history is
-
just as
-
bad as
-
Scripture
-
in terms of
-
understanding,
-
and we're
-
talking about
-
hard science
-
here,
-
right?
-
But I
-
think that
-
that is
-
the problem.
-
Where do
-
you place
-
history?
-
Because
-
Scripture is
-
undeniably
-
history,
-
in some
-
places at
-
least,
-
right?
-
You know,
-
there's
-
discussion
-
whether
-
Job is
-
a real
-
person that
-
lived in
-
the real
-
world,
-
or is
-
it a
-
poem
-
describing
-
whatever,
-
right?
-
So there
-
are places
-
in Scripture
-
where we
-
argue,
-
like,
-
oh,
-
is this
-
meant to
-
be
-
history,
-
or is
-
this
-
meant to
-
be
-
a
-
parable?
-
But there
-
are parts
-
that are
-
definitely
-
history,
-
or meant
-
to be
-
history.
-
And so
-
depending on
-
where you
-
put history
-
in your
-
magisteria,
-
that's going
-
to make
-
major problems
-
for Christians,
-
right?
-
And usually
-
I've found
-
that the
-
non-overlapping
-
magisterium is
-
put forward
-
by scientists
-
generally,
-
who just
-
don't want
-
to deal
-
with
-
Christians.
-
That's been
-
my thought,
-
like,
-
oh,
-
yeah,
-
but really
-
they're just
-
totally separate,
-
so we don't
-
have to argue
-
about it.
-
It's like,
-
okay,
-
well,
-
I don't
-
think that
-
does Scripture
-
justice.
-
Hey,
-
Luke,
-
thanks so
-
much.
-
I had a
-
question about
-
your further
-
reading section
-
in your handout,
-
and I've only,
-
I mean,
-
some of these
-
authors I've
-
read a little
-
bit from,
-
I don't know
-
if I've read,
-
I think I've
-
read one or
-
two of the
-
resources,
-
but something
-
that struck
-
me,
-
at least in
-
my not,
-
you know,
-
perhaps not
-
representative
-
sampling,
-
was that they
-
didn't seem
-
to do what
-
you're recommending
-
we do.
-
Like,
-
they didn't seem
-
like they were
-
really dealing
-
with the deeper
-
issues,
-
they were just
-
kind of stating
-
their view,
-
sometimes making
-
really good
-
observations,
-
but then I also
-
felt like there
-
were a lot of
-
weaknesses in
-
their views,
-
that they weren't
-
really attending
-
to or acknowledging.
-
Anyway,
-
I was wondering
-
if you could
-
give a little
-
overview of
-
these further
-
reading resources
-
or potential
-
ones that
-
might do,
-
maybe do what
-
you're doing,
-
or maybe none
-
of them do.
-
Yeah,
-
yeah,
-
no,
-
I'm not that
-
good.
-
I didn't print
-
out the further
-
reading for myself.
-
Somebody hand me
-
that to me?
-
Yeah.
-
Thank you.
-
Excellent.
-
Okay,
-
so closest thing
-
I would say on
-
the further reading
-
list for an
-
overview is the
-
John Lennox
-
book,
-
Seven Days
-
That Divide
-
the World.
-
This is John
-
C. Lennox,
-
he's a famous
-
Irish apologist
-
slash evangelist.
-
He's a really
-
smart guy.
-
Also,
-
he sounds really
-
cool when he
-
talks.
-
Yeah,
-
he's Oxford
-
trained.
-
He spoke here.
-
Did he really?
-
Of course,
-
I wasn't here.
-
Anyways,
-
so John C.
-
Lennox,
-
his Seven Days
-
That Divide
-
the World,
-
that's an overview
-
book.
-
He talks about
-
the different
-
views.
-
And I think
-
he does touch
-
a little bit
-
on the
-
philosophical
-
issues of
-
why we
-
would believe
-
one versus
-
the other.
-
Okay?
-
These different
-
resources I have
-
here are
-
specific arguments
-
for one
-
particular view.
-
And so,
-
like I was
-
talking about
-
earlier when
-
we're having
-
discussions with
-
Christians,
-
oftentimes we
-
have our own
-
view and we're
-
arguing for that
-
view with
-
these philosophical
-
issues not really
-
in view.
-
view.
-
view.
-
And so,
-
you're going to
-
find that
-
in these
-
different books.
-
I have found
-
myself that the
-
books by C.
-
John Collins,
-
who takes the
-
analogical day view,
-
he does interact
-
more with other
-
views and explain
-
why sometimes people
-
come to one
-
conclusion versus
-
the other.
-
But it's not the
-
primary part of
-
his book.
-
The primary part of
-
his book is,
-
this is why I'm
-
right.
-
Or this is the
-
correct way of
-
understanding it.
-
And I think
-
there's a place for
-
that.
-
I think,
-
obviously,
-
there has to be a
-
place for that.
-
We have to argue,
-
we have to come to
-
a conclusion and
-
argue for our view.
-
And that's true of
-
everything that I
-
think.
-
You should make up
-
your mind about
-
what you believe and
-
why you believe it.
-
So,
-
I don't want to
-
come across as
-
somebody who says
-
that,
-
you know,
-
really,
-
we're all right
-
and,
-
you know,
-
we should just
-
hug.
-
I think we all
-
have our own
-
views and we
-
have potentially
-
good reasons for
-
the way that we
-
think about things
-
and that the only
-
way we're going
-
to become,
-
you know,
-
better and more
-
mature Christians
-
is if we are
-
sharpening each
-
other iron style,
-
right?
-
But I can't
-
think of any
-
other big
-
overview books
-
other than
-
the seven days
-
that divide
-
the world.
-
My reading is
-
actually quite
-
limited.
-
No,
-
I mean,
-
I've read,
-
sorry,
-
I've read a lot
-
of books on
-
the different
-
views,
-
but I haven't
-
read that many
-
books about
-
the views about
-
the views.
-
Does that make
-
sense?
-
Yeah.
-
This is,
-
which is why I
-
thought it was
-
helpful to do
-
the class this
-
way,
-
right?
-
Because there's
-
so many resources
-
out there for
-
any particular
-
view,
-
but trying to
-
understand why
-
we come to the
-
conclusions we do
-
is,
-
yeah.
-
It sounds like
-
you have a job
-
to do then.
-
I think you've
-
got to write
-
this book.
-
I hope not.
-
Somebody who's a
-
writer should be
-
doing that.
-
I'm a,
-
I'm a,
-
I'm more of a
-
talker.
-
I talk better
-
than I write.
-
Yeah,
-
yeah.
-
Maybe I'll do
-
like a C.S.
-
Lewis style,
-
I'll do a bunch
-
of radio things
-
and then eventually
-
somebody will
-
transcribe it into
-
a book.
-
I hope not,
-
man.
-
Nobody should
-
ever listen to me
-
in anything I say.
-
Cool,
-
any other
-
questions?
-
All righty.
-
Well,
-
thank you guys so
-
much for coming.
-
I hope to see you
-
next week.
-
Thank you.
-
Thank you.
-
Thank you.
-
Thank you.