Sermon

Shades of Creationism 2

Trinity Baptist Church - Sermons

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  1. All righty.

  2. All righty.

  3. Well, it is that time again.

  4. So why don't I open us up in prayer?

  5. Father God, thank you for this day.

  6. Thank you for allowing us this time to come together

  7. and to think about you and learn about you, Lord.

  8. I ask that this class would be edifying

  9. and that it would glorify you

  10. and that we would come away better able

  11. to love each other in unity.

  12. We love you, Lord, in Jesus' name. Amen.

  13. Okay, so as I'm one to do,

  14. let's start with preamble.

  15. Okay, so the preamble today

  16. is that I have tried my best

  17. to find easy and accessible ways

  18. to break these different views

  19. of interpreting Genesis up.

  20. And I'm trying to use language that makes sense

  21. and I'm attempting to use language

  22. that the adherents of this particular view use themselves.

  23. So, but unfortunately, it's not usually that easy.

  24. So I have had to make up some terms.

  25. But I've tried my best to stay to real terms when possible.

  26. And secondly, I will say that some of these terms

  27. are often used pejoratively,

  28. but that's not my intention in this class.

  29. My intention is clarity.

  30. So try to divest any of these terms

  31. that may have connotations to you.

  32. Just sort of ignore those.

  33. That's not the point.

  34. The point is to understand each other.

  35. So let's get going.

  36. So the first thing,

  37. I'm going to do a little crash course

  38. in the basics of hermeneutics.

  39. And I'm going to use,

  40. to start off with,

  41. just some of the insights

  42. that have come from studying communication

  43. in a field called speech act theory.

  44. So in speech act theory,

  45. they try to understand communication

  46. by dividing it into three different types,

  47. three different parts.

  48. So the three components of communication

  49. are one, the locution,

  50. two, the illocution,

  51. and three, the perlocution.

  52. Okay.

  53. Lots of acutions there,

  54. but really,

  55. these are just ways,

  56. fancy academic ways,

  57. of saying the locution

  58. is the form of the speech,

  59. the grammar,

  60. the syntax,

  61. that kind of thing.

  62. The illocution is the meaning

  63. that you're trying to get across,

  64. and the perlocution is actually

  65. the understanding of the audience.

  66. Okay.

  67. So these are the three parts of speech.

  68. But you know what?

  69. Actually, before I get going too far,

  70. do you have the time?

  71. 903.

  72. 903.

  73. Isn't that interesting?

  74. I asked you guys,

  75. do you have the time?

  76. And nobody said yes or no.

  77. Everybody is looking in their pockets

  78. trying to find their watch, right?

  79. Because they know

  80. that I'm not actually asking you,

  81. do you have the time?

  82. Like, are you aware

  83. of what the time is, right?

  84. Because according to the locution,

  85. the correct answer to that question is

  86. yes or no, right?

  87. You could not know what the time is.

  88. So the correct answer is either yes or no.

  89. But because of the context

  90. and because of the way I'm speaking it,

  91. we all know what I'm really asking.

  92. I'm really asking,

  93. can you tell me the time?

  94. Right?

  95. But nobody asks somebody,

  96. well, I guess some people ask people,

  97. do you know the time?

  98. Right?

  99. Or can you tell me the time?

  100. And so this is just an illustration

  101. of how sometimes the locution,

  102. the form of the sentence,

  103. doesn't equal the illocution,

  104. what I'm trying to convey to you.

  105. Right?

  106. And it's not just in this situation.

  107. I could change the tone of my voice

  108. and use the exact same words

  109. and have a totally different effect.

  110. So I first ask,

  111. do you have the time?

  112. And you're looking for your watch

  113. and you want to tell me what time it is.

  114. If I'm talking to my daughter,

  115. I say,

  116. do you know the time?

  117. Suddenly she's thinking,

  118. oh my goodness,

  119. I didn't know it's bedtime.

  120. I need to be going to sleep now, right?

  121. Or do you know what time it is?

  122. Right?

  123. Now it's like,

  124. oh, what's going on?

  125. Oh, it's the football game.

  126. Let's go sit down

  127. and watch the football game.

  128. Right?

  129. In none of these situations

  130. is the meaning of my communication

  131. the actual grammatical form

  132. of the communication.

  133. Okay?

  134. And this is important.

  135. Right?

  136. Because of biblical inerrancy.

  137. Right?

  138. As Christians,

  139. we affirm that the Bible

  140. is the word of God

  141. and is therefore inerrant,

  142. meaning all of its truth

  143. claims are affirmed

  144. and it is without error

  145. in any of these truth claims.

  146. Right?

  147. But,

  148. not all interpretations

  149. of the Bible

  150. are inerrant.

  151. Right?

  152. And so our goal,

  153. if we're looking for,

  154. so using some of our new terms,

  155. if we want to understand

  156. what we're talking about inerrancy,

  157. is that the illocution

  158. of the Bible

  159. is inerrant.

  160. The meaning of the Bible

  161. is always inerrant.

  162. It's true in all of its forms.

  163. However,

  164. sometimes the Bible

  165. is using idiom.

  166. Sometimes it's using

  167. poetic language.

  168. Sometimes it's using

  169. analogical language.

  170. Sometimes it's using

  171. scientific language.

  172. Right?

  173. And so it's our job

  174. as the audience

  175. to match our perlocution

  176. with the illocution

  177. of the Bible.

  178. Right?

  179. That's what we're trying

  180. to do in interpretation.

  181. Right?

  182. That's our job

  183. in hermeneutics.

  184. However,

  185. there are a lot

  186. of different

  187. philosophical

  188. predispositions

  189. and views

  190. that determine

  191. a lot of times

  192. how we are

  193. understanding the text.

  194. How it's hitting us.

  195. Okay?

  196. And this is especially

  197. relevant

  198. to

  199. our discussion

  200. here today

  201. about different

  202. interpretations

  203. of Genesis 1

  204. and how that relates

  205. to whether

  206. intelligent design

  207. or theistic evolution

  208. is a possible view.

  209. Right?

  210. Because today

  211. our goal

  212. is to understand

  213. the question

  214. why are we even

  215. talking about this?

  216. Right?

  217. Why are we even

  218. having a discussion

  219. about intelligent design

  220. and theistic evolution?

  221. Right?

  222. Because

  223. Genesis 1

  224. is so clear.

  225. But I'm going to

  226. talk about today

  227. how different Christians

  228. understand Genesis 1

  229. and how that either

  230. does not allow room

  231. for an evolutionary

  232. mechanism

  233. or allows room

  234. for.

  235. Right?

  236. And we'll talk

  237. more about that

  238. later.

  239. But let me first

  240. talk about

  241. sort of how

  242. I'm going to be

  243. framing our discussion

  244. today.

  245. Okay?

  246. Last week

  247. I talked about

  248. how the scientific

  249. method developed.

  250. Right?

  251. And part of that

  252. was Christians

  253. understanding that

  254. God is a will.

  255. God is a person

  256. who has a will

  257. and can do

  258. anything he wants

  259. in creation.

  260. And so

  261. because he's not

  262. constrained

  263. he has the ability

  264. to do things

  265. other than

  266. you might think.

  267. So we can't just

  268. reason by first

  269. principles

  270. what must be

  271. true of nature.

  272. We have to

  273. actually investigate

  274. nature to understand

  275. what it is that

  276. God did.

  277. So God is often

  278. described as having

  279. written two different

  280. books.

  281. We have one,

  282. the book of nature,

  283. which is called

  284. general revelation.

  285. and this is

  286. what we can learn

  287. about God

  288. just from observing

  289. nature by

  290. introspection,

  291. by reason,

  292. by philosophy,

  293. these kinds of

  294. things.

  295. Right?

  296. This is the kind

  297. of revelation

  298. that's generally

  299. applied to everyone

  300. in the whole world

  301. across time.

  302. Right?

  303. Everyone is in

  304. connection to

  305. the book of nature,

  306. to general revelation.

  307. He also wrote,

  308. most famously,

  309. the book of scripture.

  310. scripture.

  311. Right?

  312. Special revelation.

  313. This is what we can

  314. learn about God

  315. from his own

  316. self-revelation

  317. in his word.

  318. Right?

  319. And so,

  320. we know

  321. that we have

  322. these two kinds

  323. of books,

  324. but there are

  325. a variety

  326. of different ways

  327. to balance

  328. the book of nature

  329. and the book

  330. of scripture.

  331. What I'm going to

  332. call general

  333. and special revelation

  334. for the rest

  335. of the class,

  336. just because

  337. the book of

  338. is kind of long.

  339. So,

  340. we're going to

  341. talk about

  342. general and special.

  343. Special being

  344. scripture,

  345. general being

  346. nature.

  347. So,

  348. we as Christians

  349. hold scripture

  350. to be our

  351. highest authority.

  352. Right?

  353. Scripture is

  354. breathed out

  355. from God.

  356. It is self-revelation.

  357. It is the clearest

  358. form of communication

  359. between us

  360. and God.

  361. But that being said,

  362. scripture itself

  363. points to the

  364. trustworthiness

  365. of the book

  366. of nature,

  367. especially when

  368. it comes to

  369. the world.

  370. Right?

  371. It says in Romans

  372. that God's attributes

  373. are clearly seen

  374. in his works

  375. in nature.

  376. Right?

  377. And that the heavens

  378. declare the glory

  379. of God

  380. in the Psalms.

  381. So,

  382. we are expected

  383. as individuals,

  384. in fact,

  385. in Romans,

  386. we are held

  387. responsible

  388. for the truths

  389. that we can gain

  390. about God

  391. from nature.

  392. Right?

  393. So,

  394. scripture itself,

  395. which is our

  396. highest authority,

  397. has a high view

  398. of what we can

  399. understand from

  400. the book of nature.

  401. Right?

  402. So,

  403. how do we balance

  404. them?

  405. Right?

  406. Because what if

  407. what we learn

  408. in the book of nature

  409. from our understanding

  410. conflicts from

  411. what we learn

  412. in the book of

  413. scripture?

  414. Right?

  415. So,

  416. that is

  417. the first

  418. tension

  419. in creationism.

  420. Okay?

  421. So,

  422. I'm going to go

  423. through

  424. six different

  425. views,

  426. which I am

  427. going to describe

  428. in a spectrum.

  429. Six different

  430. views,

  431. philosophical

  432. views,

  433. about how

  434. we balance

  435. general

  436. and special

  437. revelation.

  438. Okay?

  439. Because this

  440. is going to be

  441. a major part

  442. of how we

  443. approach

  444. Genesis 1.

  445. Right?

  446. It's going to be

  447. a major part

  448. of how we

  449. are dialoguing

  450. with our

  451. fellow Christians

  452. who may have

  453. different views.

  454. Okay?

  455. And rarely,

  456. this is actually

  457. what we're talking

  458. about.

  459. Usually,

  460. we're talking

  461. about,

  462. we think we're

  463. talking about

  464. something else,

  465. but in actual

  466. fact,

  467. a lot of times

  468. we actually are

  469. talking about

  470. this.

  471. So,

  472. the first view

  473. is what I'm

  474. calling,

  475. and this is my

  476. own term,

  477. science skeptics.

  478. Okay?

  479. Now,

  480. science skeptics,

  481. again,

  482. I'm not using,

  483. I'm not trying

  484. to have

  485. pejorative

  486. understandings

  487. here,

  488. but just

  489. try to

  490. wipe away

  491. any connotation

  492. that you're

  493. feeling.

  494. But a

  495. science skeptics

  496. believe that

  497. special revelation

  498. is really

  499. the only

  500. authority.

  501. Right?

  502. Special revelation

  503. is the only

  504. authority,

  505. they are not

  506. really that

  507. sanguine about

  508. what we can

  509. actually learn

  510. from science.

  511. Okay?

  512. This is not

  513. a very common

  514. position,

  515. but it's

  516. characterized

  517. just by

  518. flippancy

  519. about what

  520. science can

  521. do.

  522. Right?

  523. They don't

  524. particularly

  525. think that

  526. it's a

  527. reliable method

  528. of understanding

  529. information,

  530. especially when

  531. it comes to

  532. understanding

  533. the origins

  534. of the world

  535. and the way

  536. that it works.

  537. So if I

  538. was to

  539. imagine

  540. a scale

  541. in which

  542. we are

  543. balancing

  544. general and

  545. special revelation,

  546. a science skeptic

  547. may be on

  548. this end of

  549. the spectrum.

  550. Right?

  551. So special

  552. revelation is

  553. the scales

  554. all the way

  555. down,

  556. and really

  557. general revelation

  558. is not really

  559. doing much

  560. in terms of

  561. their interpretation

  562. of the world

  563. or how they

  564. balance things.

  565. Okay?

  566. So this

  567. is

  568. again

  569. not a very

  570. common

  571. position,

  572. mainly because

  573. in our

  574. everyday life

  575. we're sort

  576. of living

  577. with the

  578. fruits of

  579. a lot of

  580. the endeavors

  581. of scientists,

  582. you know,

  583. our cell

  584. phones,

  585. our

  586. automobiles,

  587. etc.

  588. And so a lot

  589. of times it's

  590. sort of hard

  591. to be in

  592. this position

  593. cognitively,

  594. but it is a

  595. position I want

  596. us to be aware

  597. of.

  598. The next

  599. position is

  600. far more

  601. common.

  602. I'm calling

  603. this concordists,

  604. and so what

  605. concordists believe,

  606. and I'm not,

  607. so this is an

  608. actual term,

  609. I'm not making

  610. this up,

  611. so I'll try

  612. to make that

  613. clear as we

  614. go along.

  615. But concordists,

  616. they emphasize

  617. special revelation

  618. in understanding

  619. how nature

  620. came to be,

  621. but they also

  622. have a high

  623. view of what

  624. we can learn

  625. from general

  626. revelation.

  627. information.

  628. So another

  629. way of

  630. understanding

  631. this is that

  632. in general,

  633. these Christians

  634. believe that

  635. the Bible is

  636. intending to

  637. communicate

  638. scientific

  639. information at

  640. a certain

  641. level.

  642. And again,

  643. within the

  644. concordist group

  645. there's going to

  646. be disagreement

  647. about to what

  648. level.

  649. But in general,

  650. the reason I can

  651. fit these together

  652. is that they

  653. try in general

  654. to fit information

  655. that we get

  656. from science

  657. into a

  658. biblical framework,

  659. their biblical

  660. framework.

  661. So they say,

  662. okay,

  663. the Bible is

  664. communicating

  665. scientific

  666. information,

  667. and I have

  668. the scientific

  669. information over

  670. here,

  671. so therefore

  672. they must

  673. be the same.

  674. And so they

  675. are trying

  676. to fit

  677. their view

  678. of science

  679. into their

  680. biblical

  681. interpretation.

  682. And so,

  683. you know,

  684. mostly special

  685. revelation,

  686. but general

  687. revelation

  688. actually has

  689. some weight

  690. in this group.

  691. Okay?

  692. So there's a

  693. little bit more

  694. of a balance.

  695. This third

  696. group I'm

  697. calling

  698. harmonists,

  699. and I didn't

  700. make that up,

  701. but it's not

  702. very common.

  703. So a

  704. harmonist

  705. approach

  706. is they

  707. try not

  708. to privilege

  709. special or

  710. general revelation

  711. when they're

  712. explaining nature.

  713. Basically,

  714. they think

  715. that the

  716. goal is to

  717. understand these

  718. different

  719. areas of

  720. information on

  721. their own

  722. terms,

  723. right?

  724. And then

  725. when there

  726. is conflict

  727. apparent,

  728. they try to

  729. smooth it out.

  730. They try to

  731. harmonize those

  732. conflicts as

  733. they appear.

  734. But they,

  735. in general,

  736. don't try to

  737. use special

  738. revelation in

  739. applying it to

  740. general,

  741. and they don't

  742. use general

  743. revelation to

  744. apply it to

  745. special.

  746. They say that

  747. these are two

  748. groups that

  749. are talking

  750. to each

  751. other,

  752. but they

  753. have their

  754. own ways

  755. of communicating.

  756. And so

  757. you would

  758. imagine that

  759. this group

  760. would be

  761. special revelation,

  762. general revelation,

  763. sort of in

  764. parity when it

  765. comes to

  766. understanding

  767. nature,

  768. again.

  769. Because remember,

  770. I don't want to

  771. confuse anybody

  772. with these scales.

  773. As Christians,

  774. special revelation

  775. is the highest

  776. authority,

  777. right?

  778. But when it

  779. comes to

  780. understanding the

  781. way nature

  782. works and

  783. how it

  784. came to

  785. be,

  786. there was

  787. going to

  788. be a

  789. balance.

  790. So again,

  791. just to make

  792. that clear.

  793. Then we have

  794. accommodationists.

  795. This is in the

  796. term I came up

  797. with, and it's

  798. not actually

  799. entirely pejorative.

  800. So people who

  801. hold this view

  802. call themselves

  803. accommodationists,

  804. and this view,

  805. you can imagine

  806. them as sort of

  807. the reverse image

  808. of a concordance.

  809. they privilege

  810. general revelation

  811. when it comes to

  812. understanding nature.

  813. They have a high

  814. view of special

  815. revelation,

  816. and what can be

  817. learned about

  818. nature there.

  819. And so what is

  820. characteristic of

  821. this group is

  822. usually they try

  823. to de-emphasize

  824. the scientific

  825. implications of

  826. scripture,

  827. and try to focus

  828. more of their

  829. effort on

  830. understanding the

  831. sort of the

  832. spiritual or

  833. moral import,

  834. or theological

  835. import of

  836. scripture.

  837. And so you

  838. would say here

  839. when it comes

  840. to nature,

  841. they're weighting

  842. general revelation

  843. a little more

  844. strongly than

  845. special revelation.

  846. Right?

  847. And finally,

  848. the last group,

  849. because there are

  850. five groups,

  851. not six.

  852. The sixth group

  853. is just secret,

  854. it's just for me.

  855. The last group

  856. I'm calling

  857. biblical skeptics.

  858. Okay?

  859. I came up with

  860. this term.

  861. I don't think

  862. anybody would

  863. call themselves

  864. a biblical skeptic.

  865. But in terms

  866. of this

  867. discussion,

  868. they would

  869. hold that

  870. really general

  871. revelation is

  872. the only real

  873. authority when

  874. it comes to

  875. understanding nature.

  876. And that the

  877. Bible is not

  878. meant to convey

  879. scientific information

  880. at all.

  881. And it's really

  882. there for moral

  883. information,

  884. theological

  885. information,

  886. and is not

  887. a reliable

  888. scientific

  889. witness,

  890. as it were.

  891. And so,

  892. this group

  893. we would

  894. see here,

  895. general

  896. revelation

  897. is just

  898. kind of

  899. all the

  900. way down.

  901. So,

  902. with these

  903. five

  904. broad

  905. philosophical

  906. views in

  907. mind about

  908. how we

  909. balance

  910. general and

  911. special revelation,

  912. right?

  913. Let us

  914. go

  915. to

  916. scripture

  917. itself.

  918. Let's talk

  919. about

  920. what it is

  921. that we

  922. learn about

  923. creation,

  924. about

  925. origins in

  926. Genesis 1,

  927. 2,

  928. and 3.

  929. And this is

  930. just going to

  931. be a very

  932. quick overview.

  933. I did an

  934. even quicker

  935. overview,

  936. like a year

  937. ago,

  938. actually,

  939. when we did

  940. the overviews

  941. of each of

  942. these books.

  943. So,

  944. I don't know

  945. which one is

  946. going to be

  947. quicker,

  948. but this is

  949. going to be

  950. pretty quick.

  951. So,

  952. let's talk

  953. about the

  954. biblical data

  955. that we have

  956. in front of

  957. us.

  958. Okay?

  959. So,

  960. we have

  961. Genesis 1.

  962. In the

  963. beginning,

  964. God created

  965. the heavens

  966. and the

  967. earth,

  968. and the

  969. earth was

  970. without form

  971. and void,

  972. and there

  973. was darkness

  974. over the

  975. surface of

  976. the waters.

  977. That's off

  978. surface of the

  979. deep.

  980. Okay.

  981. I've read it a

  982. bunch of times,

  983. so I kind of

  984. remember.

  985. And God

  986. said,

  987. let there be

  988. light,

  989. and separated

  990. the light from

  991. the darkness,

  992. and that is

  993. evening and

  994. morning,

  995. the first day.

  996. one day.

  997. Or,

  998. depending on

  999. how you

  1000. translate it,

  1001. one day.

  1002. Some people

  1003. put a lot of

  1004. emphasis on the

  1005. fact that there

  1006. is no definite

  1007. article on the

  1008. first five days.

  1009. I don't know.

  1010. Anyways,

  1011. the first day

  1012. sounds better.

  1013. And so,

  1014. on day one

  1015. in Genesis,

  1016. we see the

  1017. separation of

  1018. light versus

  1019. dark.

  1020. And so,

  1021. I'm filling

  1022. in this

  1023. table to

  1024. sort of

  1025. illustrate how

  1026. the six days

  1027. of creation

  1028. mirror each

  1029. other.

  1030. Right?

  1031. Because we

  1032. have the

  1033. first three

  1034. days,

  1035. which are

  1036. often described

  1037. as forming

  1038. days,

  1039. where God

  1040. is creating

  1041. the space

  1042. for these

  1043. different kingdoms,

  1044. these different

  1045. domains,

  1046. as you were.

  1047. Separating light

  1048. from dark.

  1049. On day two,

  1050. he's separating

  1051. the waters from

  1052. the sky,

  1053. so he's

  1054. creating waters,

  1055. he's creating

  1056. the air.

  1057. And then

  1058. day three,

  1059. he's separating

  1060. water from

  1061. the land.

  1062. And on the

  1063. land,

  1064. there is a

  1065. special creation

  1066. on day three,

  1067. the creation

  1068. of vegetation

  1069. on the land.

  1070. Okay?

  1071. So you can

  1072. imagine,

  1073. in this forming

  1074. column,

  1075. we have the

  1076. creation of

  1077. spaces,

  1078. the creation

  1079. of domains.

  1080. And then,

  1081. on the

  1082. filling days,

  1083. day four

  1084. through six,

  1085. we're going

  1086. to be filling

  1087. these different

  1088. domains with

  1089. their inhabitants.

  1090. Right?

  1091. So on day four,

  1092. we have the

  1093. creation of

  1094. the luminaries.

  1095. So we have

  1096. the sun,

  1097. the moon,

  1098. the stars.

  1099. These are

  1100. the inhabitants

  1101. of the light

  1102. and dark.

  1103. Right?

  1104. They are the

  1105. inhabitants of

  1106. day and night.

  1107. Moving forward,

  1108. on day five,

  1109. we have the

  1110. creation of

  1111. the fish

  1112. and the birds.

  1113. And the fish

  1114. and the birds,

  1115. they live in

  1116. the waters

  1117. and in the sky.

  1118. Right?

  1119. These are

  1120. the spaces

  1121. that God

  1122. has created

  1123. for these

  1124. creatures

  1125. on day two.

  1126. And on day six,

  1127. we have the

  1128. creation of

  1129. land creatures

  1130. in general,

  1131. animals and

  1132. bugs and

  1133. anything that

  1134. crawls and

  1135. creeps on the

  1136. land.

  1137. And a special

  1138. creation on

  1139. day six of

  1140. human beings

  1141. as separate

  1142. from the

  1143. animals.

  1144. And this

  1145. is the

  1146. pinnacle

  1147. of the

  1148. creation week.

  1149. Okay?

  1150. The entire

  1151. creation week

  1152. is building

  1153. up to

  1154. human beings.

  1155. Right?

  1156. And there's

  1157. a beautiful

  1158. part where

  1159. we get into

  1160. strictly poetic

  1161. language.

  1162. It says,

  1163. God created

  1164. them in his

  1165. image.

  1166. In the image

  1167. of God,

  1168. he created

  1169. them.

  1170. Male and

  1171. female,

  1172. he created

  1173. them.

  1174. Right?

  1175. So it's a

  1176. triple emphasis

  1177. on the creation

  1178. of human beings

  1179. in the creation

  1180. week as the

  1181. pinnacle of

  1182. his creation.

  1183. And in fact,

  1184. if you look at

  1185. the description

  1186. of the

  1187. luminaries,

  1188. why did God

  1189. create the

  1190. luminaries?

  1191. God created

  1192. the sun and

  1193. the moon to

  1194. watch over the

  1195. day and the

  1196. night and for

  1197. signs and for

  1198. seasons.

  1199. Right?

  1200. And who's

  1201. watching for

  1202. signs and

  1203. seasons?

  1204. That's us.

  1205. So we're

  1206. showing here

  1207. in the

  1208. creation account

  1209. the creation

  1210. of a world

  1211. meant for

  1212. human beings.

  1213. It's an

  1214. anthropomorphic

  1215. creation.

  1216. No.

  1217. Anthropocentric?

  1218. That's the

  1219. word.

  1220. Anthropocentric

  1221. creation.

  1222. We're the big

  1223. deal here.

  1224. In the

  1225. creation, God

  1226. is the big

  1227. deal and the

  1228. one doing it,

  1229. obviously.

  1230. And on day

  1231. seven, God

  1232. rests.

  1233. There's no

  1234. morning and

  1235. evening with

  1236. the implication

  1237. that God's

  1238. rest continues

  1239. on.

  1240. And so this is

  1241. God's Sabbath

  1242. and in the

  1243. same way that

  1244. God rests on

  1245. the seventh

  1246. day, we, and

  1247. delights in

  1248. his creation,

  1249. saying that it's

  1250. very good, we

  1251. as human beings

  1252. later in

  1253. Exodus and

  1254. in Deuteronomy,

  1255. we are expected

  1256. to rest on the

  1257. Sabbath day, on

  1258. the seventh day,

  1259. keep it holy to

  1260. glorify God in

  1261. his creation and

  1262. to worship

  1263. him.

  1264. Right?

  1265. So this is

  1266. sort of

  1267. showing us,

  1268. giving us a

  1269. pattern of

  1270. why it is

  1271. that on the

  1272. seventh day

  1273. that we rest

  1274. and glorify God

  1275. because on the

  1276. seventh day, God

  1277. rested.

  1278. Right?

  1279. That's the

  1280. direct implication

  1281. of Moses in

  1282. Exodus when he

  1283. is giving

  1284. Israelites the

  1285. law.

  1286. So this is

  1287. the major

  1288. biblical data

  1289. when it comes

  1290. to use a

  1291. weird term.

  1292. I'm a

  1293. scientist.

  1294. Sometimes I

  1295. use data

  1296. when I

  1297. shouldn't.

  1298. But anyways,

  1299. the biblical

  1300. information, the

  1301. biblical witness

  1302. in Genesis 1,

  1303. this is the

  1304. big, where

  1305. most of the

  1306. controversy lies

  1307. in terms of

  1308. interpreting

  1309. Genesis and

  1310. applying it to

  1311. the science and

  1312. faith discussion.

  1313. But I don't

  1314. think we should

  1315. give Genesis 2

  1316. and 3 short

  1317. shrift because

  1318. these are also

  1319. incredibly important

  1320. for understanding

  1321. how we parse

  1322. out these

  1323. different views.

  1324. So in

  1325. Genesis 2,

  1326. we zoom in

  1327. to discuss

  1328. the creation

  1329. of man.

  1330. Adam is made

  1331. specially by God

  1332. in his image.

  1333. He's given

  1334. dominion over

  1335. the animals.

  1336. He's tasked

  1337. with multiplying,

  1338. subduing the

  1339. earth.

  1340. We're given the

  1341. creation mandate.

  1342. And Eve is

  1343. presented to

  1344. Adam.

  1345. The first

  1346. marriage is

  1347. recorded.

  1348. God's plan for

  1349. creation is on

  1350. track to being

  1351. completed.

  1352. Now he has his

  1353. vice regents here

  1354. on earth to

  1355. subdue and to

  1356. participate in

  1357. God subduing and

  1358. ruling over the

  1359. earth.

  1360. But we're all

  1361. aware of what

  1362. happens in Genesis

  1363. 3.

  1364. In Genesis 3,

  1365. the narrative

  1366. continues with the

  1367. great cataclysm that

  1368. we call the

  1369. fall.

  1370. The serpent

  1371. deceives Adam

  1372. and Eve to

  1373. disobey God

  1374. by eating from

  1375. the tree of the

  1376. knowledge of good

  1377. and evil, the

  1378. one tree that God

  1379. said do not eat

  1380. from.

  1381. And don't we know

  1382. as parents how

  1383. that is, right?

  1384. The one place you

  1385. tell them not to

  1386. go.

  1387. That's the place

  1388. they want to be.

  1389. Anyways, one of

  1390. these days I'll tell

  1391. them not to eat

  1392. broccoli and we'll

  1393. see if that works.

  1394. So this

  1395. disobedience results

  1396. in their death.

  1397. Not immediately,

  1398. but eventually.

  1399. Their death, they

  1400. are individually

  1401. cursed, the serpent,

  1402. the man, and the

  1403. woman.

  1404. And now the

  1405. relationship between

  1406. God and man has

  1407. been ruptured.

  1408. And there is

  1409. condemnation.

  1410. Although, we have

  1411. a promise of

  1412. redemption already

  1413. in the, pretty

  1414. much in the

  1415. middle of the

  1416. curses, right?

  1417. They have just

  1418. disobeyed God.

  1419. You know, they

  1420. have marred his

  1421. beautiful creation.

  1422. He's cursing them,

  1423. but in the middle

  1424. of the cursing is a

  1425. parenthetical, by

  1426. the way, I'll take

  1427. care of this, right?

  1428. So, this is our

  1429. biblical information.

  1430. If you guys remember

  1431. back to the

  1432. biblical theology

  1433. courses that we

  1434. were just going

  1435. through, the

  1436. creation, fall, and

  1437. the beginning of

  1438. redemption history is

  1439. a major theme in

  1440. all of these

  1441. different strands

  1442. that fly out from

  1443. Genesis throughout

  1444. the Bible.

  1445. These different

  1446. strands that are

  1447. connected and

  1448. ultimately find

  1449. their consummation

  1450. and conclusion

  1451. and climax,

  1452. let's say,

  1453. in Jesus.

  1454. Sorry, I was just

  1455. thinking that.

  1456. I just did three

  1457. C words and it

  1458. wasn't even on

  1459. purpose.

  1460. So, it's

  1461. important.

  1462. This is important.

  1463. And this is why

  1464. there is a

  1465. significant amount

  1466. of controversy over

  1467. the interpretation of

  1468. these passages,

  1469. because it's not

  1470. just how did God

  1471. create the world.

  1472. It is the sort of

  1473. the bedrock

  1474. assumptions and

  1475. set up for really

  1476. the entire biblical

  1477. worldview.

  1478. Right?

  1479. So, just remember

  1480. that when we're

  1481. having these

  1482. discussions with

  1483. each other, and

  1484. we're disagreeing

  1485. with each other on

  1486. these different

  1487. views, a lot of

  1488. the heat comes

  1489. from our innate

  1490. view, our innate

  1491. desire to protect

  1492. the witness of

  1493. Scripture.

  1494. Right?

  1495. Because that's

  1496. what we're told to

  1497. do in the Bible,

  1498. to protect the

  1499. witness of Scripture

  1500. and to preserve

  1501. the witness

  1502. handed down by

  1503. this.

  1504. I don't know.

  1505. I'm trying to

  1506. quote a verse, and

  1507. it's not working.

  1508. Yeah, there you

  1509. go.

  1510. That's what I'm

  1511. going for.

  1512. The faith once

  1513. for all.

  1514. Yeah, exactly.

  1515. Delivered to the

  1516. saints.

  1517. Okay.

  1518. So, this is our

  1519. biblical data.

  1520. This is what

  1521. everybody's reading.

  1522. Okay?

  1523. These, I'm about

  1524. to go through a

  1525. variety of

  1526. different interpretations

  1527. of Genesis 1,

  1528. with the implications

  1529. for 2 and 3, but

  1530. usually a lot of

  1531. the discussion is on

  1532. Genesis 1.

  1533. And so, we all

  1534. don't have different

  1535. Bibles, right?

  1536. We're all reading the

  1537. same Bible.

  1538. And so, it's

  1539. important to take

  1540. into consideration

  1541. that we're all

  1542. looking at the same

  1543. stuff.

  1544. And the question is,

  1545. how do we

  1546. understand it?

  1547. What is Genesis

  1548. attempting to

  1549. convey to us?

  1550. So, let me start

  1551. with probably one

  1552. of the more

  1553. famous and

  1554. well-known

  1555. views, which is

  1556. young earth

  1557. creation

  1558. interpretations.

  1559. I'm going to

  1560. abbreviate that

  1561. Y-E-C.

  1562. I'm not entirely

  1563. sure why, because

  1564. I think this is

  1565. the only time I

  1566. use it.

  1567. But the young

  1568. earth creation

  1569. view basically

  1570. takes the face

  1571. value understanding

  1572. of Genesis as

  1573. we read it.

  1574. You know, as

  1575. modern people, we

  1576. read Genesis 1,

  1577. and there's an

  1578. initial understanding

  1579. of what we see in

  1580. our mind when we

  1581. read it, and that

  1582. is generally what

  1583. the young earth

  1584. creation view

  1585. attempts to put

  1586. forward is what

  1587. you read is what

  1588. you get, basically.

  1589. They take a face

  1590. value understanding.

  1591. They believe that

  1592. the creation account

  1593. is straight history

  1594. and is meant to

  1595. be understood that

  1596. way.

  1597. And further, usually

  1598. they believe that

  1599. science done

  1600. correctly will prove

  1601. that the earth and

  1602. universe is in fact

  1603. young as is

  1604. described in

  1605. scripture.

  1606. Now, of course,

  1607. you may be thinking,

  1608. oh, Genesis 1

  1609. doesn't give us an

  1610. age of the earth.

  1611. But if you take

  1612. Genesis 1 as

  1613. straight history,

  1614. and then you add

  1615. up all the

  1616. genealogical years

  1617. going through Genesis

  1618. all the way up to

  1619. Abraham, you get an

  1620. age range, right?

  1621. So 6,000 to 10,000

  1622. depending on how you

  1623. add it up.

  1624. So this is, they

  1625. are believing, this

  1626. is the witness of

  1627. scripture, and

  1628. therefore the earth

  1629. and universe must in

  1630. fact be young, and

  1631. that science

  1632. incorrectly will show

  1633. that it's young.

  1634. This is the young

  1635. earth view.

  1636. Oh, man, it's

  1637. snowing.

  1638. That's beautiful.

  1639. The second group, I'm

  1640. going to put these

  1641. into four different

  1642. groups, and these

  1643. groupings are largely

  1644. my creation, although

  1645. I am cribbing off of a

  1646. variety of different

  1647. sources.

  1648. But this next group I'm

  1649. calling the ancient

  1650. science interpretations.

  1651. And what these groups

  1652. have in common, I

  1653. thought that was

  1654. thunder, I was like.

  1655. So, yeah, exactly.

  1656. Oh, thank you.

  1657. Wouldn't that be nice?

  1658. I would love that.

  1659. All right.

  1660. So I've grouped these

  1661. under this heading of

  1662. ancient science because

  1663. they share in common the

  1664. belief that the Genesis

  1665. account is intending to

  1666. convey what God did and

  1667. how God created the

  1668. world, and that

  1669. understanding it

  1670. correctly, it will fit

  1671. with the sort of the

  1672. modern scientific view

  1673. of the world.

  1674. So the first group

  1675. in this group

  1676. is the appearance

  1677. of age idea.

  1678. And so basically what

  1679. the appearance of age

  1680. interpretation says is

  1681. that the young

  1682. earth understanding

  1683. of the Bible is

  1684. correct, except

  1685. that the world

  1686. does appear old.

  1687. but it is merely

  1688. appearing old

  1689. because it was

  1690. created mature.

  1691. Right?

  1692. And so you can see

  1693. that there is, you

  1694. may be thinking, what's

  1695. the difference between

  1696. that and young

  1697. earth creationism?

  1698. What young earth

  1699. creationists would

  1700. believe that science

  1701. done correctly will

  1702. show that the earth

  1703. is young and the

  1704. universe is young.

  1705. A person who takes

  1706. the appearance of age

  1707. approach would say,

  1708. I am taking the

  1709. witness of scripture

  1710. at face value, and I

  1711. recognize that science

  1712. seems to indicate that

  1713. the earth is old, and

  1714. the way I reconcile

  1715. that is by positing

  1716. that the earth is

  1717. merely appears old.

  1718. Similar, and they

  1719. use this example,

  1720. similarly, God created

  1721. Adam as a full adult

  1722. human being.

  1723. Right?

  1724. You know, do they have

  1725. a belly button?

  1726. You know, who knows?

  1727. Right?

  1728. But the idea is, Adam

  1729. was created adult, and

  1730. so we can imagine a

  1731. scenario in which the

  1732. universe is created, in

  1733. a sense, adult.

  1734. Right?

  1735. And fully grown, and

  1736. that, when we do

  1737. science, it sort of

  1738. appears as if it's old,

  1739. but really it's not.

  1740. That's one view.

  1741. The next view in the

  1742. ancient science

  1743. interpretations is the

  1744. gap theory.

  1745. So basically, the gap

  1746. theory says that

  1747. Genesis 1 to 2,

  1748. sorry, Genesis 1, 1

  1749. to 2, describes sort

  1750. of the initial creation

  1751. event, and when it

  1752. says that the earth

  1753. was formless and void,

  1754. that the correct way

  1755. to understand that is

  1756. to say the earth

  1757. became formless and

  1758. void, and so the

  1759. idea is that God

  1760. initially created the

  1761. whole world, the whole

  1762. universe.

  1763. This is where we get

  1764. all of the age that

  1765. we see implicated in

  1766. science, but then due

  1767. to the fall of Satan,

  1768. this world that God

  1769. created initially falls

  1770. into dissonance,

  1771. disrepair, it becomes

  1772. formless and void, and

  1773. there's extinction

  1774. events on earth, etc.

  1775. And then in Genesis 1,

  1776. 3, and continuing in

  1777. the Genesis account, we

  1778. find the straight

  1779. history of how God

  1780. recreated the world.

  1781. He created the world,

  1782. he re-separated things,

  1783. he created the light

  1784. and the dark, and the

  1785. sun, and all these

  1786. things, and that the

  1787. earth is in fact, or

  1788. the universe is in

  1789. fact very old, but

  1790. Genesis is describing

  1791. the straight history.

  1792. Does that make sense

  1793. to everybody?

  1794. I will mention that the

  1795. gap theory sounds really

  1796. good to our ears, but

  1797. most biblical scholars,

  1798. the reason that it's not

  1799. very popular is most

  1800. biblical scholars don't

  1801. find the grammatical

  1802. connection in verses 1 to 2

  1803. to 3 as being legitimate,

  1804. so saying that it became

  1805. formless and void.

  1806. A lot of scholars will say

  1807. it doesn't actually say

  1808. that grammatically.

  1809. The better way to

  1810. understand it is the way

  1811. that we translate it, but

  1812. this is a view, it

  1813. actually was very popular

  1814. like 150 years ago.

  1815. But there are still people

  1816. who would affirm this, and

  1817. they have their own

  1818. arguments.

  1819. The last of the ancient

  1820. science interpretations that

  1821. I'm putting forward, I just

  1822. want to make it clear that

  1823. this is not exhaustive.

  1824. I'm only showing you a,

  1825. what I hope to be a

  1826. representative sample of a

  1827. lot of the interpretations

  1828. of Genesis, but there's

  1829. like a whole bunch, way,

  1830. way more than this.

  1831. Actually, not that much

  1832. more.

  1833. Let me like double.

  1834. But I feel like this is,

  1835. this covers the ground.

  1836. A lot of them are sort of

  1837. the nuances, they're very

  1838. close to each other.

  1839. So the third one is we have

  1840. the day-age theory, and this

  1841. takes the Genesis account to

  1842. be describing how God

  1843. created, but takes the less

  1844. common understanding of the

  1845. word day, when we're talking

  1846. about one day, a second day,

  1847. a third day, evening,

  1848. morning, etc.

  1849. They take the word day to

  1850. indicate a long period of

  1851. time.

  1852. Now, in the Bible, there are

  1853. usages of the word day in

  1854. the, that's used in Genesis

  1855. 1 to describe a long period

  1856. of time, like the day of the

  1857. Lord, right?

  1858. These are usages of the word

  1859. day that indicate a long

  1860. period of time, or just an

  1861. indeterminate amount of time,

  1862. right?

  1863. And so a day-age theorist

  1864. would say that Genesis 1 is

  1865. straight history, but we're

  1866. meant to understand the day

  1867. described in these different

  1868. days as a long period of time

  1869. and age, right?

  1870. Which is how we get this view.

  1871. But they, this allows them to

  1872. take sort of a mostly literal

  1873. approach to understanding

  1874. Genesis, but allows for the

  1875. universe to be very old,

  1876. right?

  1877. So you can see that these three

  1878. different views, they are

  1879. taking some of the information

  1880. that we get from general

  1881. revelation, and they are saying

  1882. that the Bible is attempting to

  1883. convey this information in the

  1884. text, right?

  1885. Which is why I call it ancient

  1886. science, right?

  1887. The Bible is telling us something

  1888. scientific.

  1889. This third group, creation poem

  1890. interpretation.

  1891. So I grouped these two together

  1892. because they both posit that the

  1893. Genesis is using figures of

  1894. speech and literary conventions to

  1895. convey God's activity in creation.

  1896. And so these views usually allow for a

  1897. variety of different hows of how God

  1898. created, but they all are indicating

  1899. that the Genesis passage is telling

  1900. us what God did in creation.

  1901. Okay?

  1902. Does that make sense?

  1903. So the first view I'm going to talk

  1904. about is the analogical day theory.

  1905. In this view, God is using analogical

  1906. language to compare himself, his activity

  1907. in creation to a craftsman and his work

  1908. week, right?

  1909. So he's using the language of just like

  1910. a craftsman in his work week does

  1911. this, God as the ultimate craftsman

  1912. makes the entire world and the last day

  1913. rested.

  1914. So it's using analogical language in the

  1915. sense that it's describing what God

  1916. actually did.

  1917. He did create the light and the dark and

  1918. the sun and the moon and et cetera,

  1919. but it's using figures of speech to

  1920. describe it.

  1921. And so in that sense, we're not wedded to

  1922. the specific hows of God is, of how God

  1923. is doing these different things.

  1924. In fact, we're not necessarily saying that

  1925. the creation week is using chronological

  1926. time and maybe taking things out of order

  1927. to make a theological point, but it's still

  1928. saying what God actually did.

  1929. This other group is the framework view

  1930. crowd.

  1931. This framework view relies heavily on what I

  1932. described in Genesis 1, which is that

  1933. symmetry in the creation account, in the

  1934. forming and the filling and the Sabbath.

  1935. This is basically what everybody acknowledges

  1936. is going on in the Bible.

  1937. And so they say, well, based on that,

  1938. Genesis 1 is using a literary framework

  1939. to describe God's creation.

  1940. It's not really trying to tell us anything

  1941. about how God did any of this stuff.

  1942. It's not trying to tell us chronology or

  1943. what came after what.

  1944. It's just saying it's using a literary

  1945. framework.

  1946. There's really no better way to say it.

  1947. That's why they call it the framework view.

  1948. And so Genesis is outlining the structures

  1949. of creation and what is going on, God's

  1950. creation of the different domains and the

  1951. people who live in the domains, but it's not

  1952. really telling us how he's creating these in

  1953. detail.

  1954. Okay.

  1955. Does that make sense?

  1956. Okay.

  1957. And finally, this last group I'm calling the

  1958. religion only interpretations.

  1959. And basically this group I'm putting together

  1960. because they don't believe that Genesis is

  1961. meant to describe what or how creation happened,

  1962. but really the who and the why, right?

  1963. So these interpretations are describing who God

  1964. is and why God is creating the world.

  1965. And it's using different, and we'll see,

  1966. different ways of understanding what Genesis

  1967. is conveying in the what, but in no case is the

  1968. what meant to be taken as history.

  1969. So the first view here is the proclamation day view.

  1970. So in this view, God in his throne room is

  1971. proclaiming his acts of creation sort of in a

  1972. transcendent state.

  1973. He's in his throne room.

  1974. He is proclaiming what he is doing in creation to

  1975. the angels in heaven.

  1976. And it really has no correspondence to actual

  1977. history.

  1978. It's just saying that God is saying, I'm going to

  1979. create the sun.

  1980. I'm going to create light and dark, et cetera.

  1981. And then on earth, as it is actually carried out,

  1982. it's going to look completely different.

  1983. So we're meant to understand that in Genesis,

  1984. we're reading a description of God in his throne room

  1985. describing what he's going to do.

  1986. That's the proclamation day view.

  1987. The kingdom temple view.

  1988. So this view says that God in Genesis 1 is

  1989. indicating a literal week in history in which God

  1990. is inaugurating his creation.

  1991. Right?

  1992. So God created however it is that he created,

  1993. but in a week in the real world, God is saying,

  1994. I am inaugurating the light versus the dark.

  1995. I am inaugurating this as my kingdom or temple,

  1996. depending on how you understand these verses.

  1997. Right?

  1998. So I'm inaugurating this part of creation to be this

  1999. function in my temple, in my kingdom.

  2000. Again, it's not meant to actually convey anything

  2001. about the natural world.

  2002. It's not telling you how God did anything.

  2003. He's just saying that this is what God did and this

  2004. is why, or this is who God is and why it's there

  2005. and why it's describing this way is to help us

  2006. in worshiping him.

  2007. And finally, believe it or not, this is the last one,

  2008. the alternative cosmology view.

  2009. Okay?

  2010. So this view says that Moses is actually borrowing

  2011. the word picture and narratives of the surrounding

  2012. cultures, you know, in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Canaan.

  2013. And by borrowing from these different sources,

  2014. he is attempting to contrast the God of the Bible

  2015. from the false gods.

  2016. Right?

  2017. And so see how they're similar, but look how they're different.

  2018. That's the idea.

  2019. Right?

  2020. And so he's trying to present to Israel

  2021. how their God is different from the gods

  2022. in the surrounding cultures,

  2023. but is not really challenging the ancient world picture

  2024. that they had in their mind, you know,

  2025. of the world on columns, on a flat place

  2026. with the mountains holding up the sky,

  2027. all these different ideas that we have

  2028. that the ancient people had about

  2029. what the physical world was really like.

  2030. So he's saying he's not challenging that.

  2031. He's using that word picture as a way

  2032. to emphasize the true God

  2033. versus the false gods around them.

  2034. Okay.

  2035. So that was a lot.

  2036. But how are we going to compare

  2037. all these different views?

  2038. Right?

  2039. How, what makes us compelled

  2040. by one view versus another?

  2041. So what I'm going to do here

  2042. is I'm going to go through the general categories.

  2043. I'm not going to go through every single one again,

  2044. but the general categories,

  2045. and I'm going to see how those earlier groups

  2046. that we talked to, those philosophical groups,

  2047. how they are usually,

  2048. how they cash out

  2049. in these different views of creation

  2050. and what makes them open

  2051. to these different views.

  2052. Right?

  2053. So in general,

  2054. the young earth creationist interpretations

  2055. are held by

  2056. either the science skeptics

  2057. who say, really,

  2058. we're not really meant to understand

  2059. anything from science,

  2060. or we can't really.

  2061. And concordists, right?

  2062. Believe that the,

  2063. that the biblical account

  2064. is attempting to give us scientific information

  2065. and we should,

  2066. we'll be learning about that

  2067. and we should be applying science

  2068. to understand the Bible in that way.

  2069. Right?

  2070. These ancient science interpretations,

  2071. these are going to be held

  2072. primarily by concordists.

  2073. They believe that the Bible

  2074. is attempting to convey

  2075. scientific information

  2076. and that we as Christians

  2077. are meant to use

  2078. the information from general revelation

  2079. and special revelation

  2080. and make them concord.

  2081. In the creation poem interpretation,

  2082. you're going to find a wide variety

  2083. of different people

  2084. who find this convincing,

  2085. from concordists

  2086. all the way to accommodationists

  2087. with harmonists

  2088. sort of in the middle

  2089. as they always are.

  2090. And so,

  2091. in this view,

  2092. they,

  2093. they may believe

  2094. that the Bible

  2095. is attempting to convey

  2096. poetic information,

  2097. a concordist might,

  2098. but believe that it's still

  2099. conveying scientific information

  2100. at a certain point.

  2101. Or you may be

  2102. an accommodationist

  2103. who says that,

  2104. you know,

  2105. it's not really meant

  2106. to give us any information

  2107. about the world

  2108. as it really is,

  2109. but it's using figures of speech.

  2110. Right?

  2111. And then finally,

  2112. in the religion-only interpretation

  2113. you're going to find

  2114. pretty much those groups

  2115. that,

  2116. that weigh general revelation

  2117. much higher

  2118. in the harmonist

  2119. to biblical skeptics view.

  2120. And I will say that

  2121. when we're looking at

  2122. these different

  2123. ways of understanding,

  2124. this philosophical,

  2125. these philosophical views

  2126. of understanding

  2127. nature and creation,

  2128. I try not to put my own views

  2129. in the class.

  2130. I'm trying to help us

  2131. understand it,

  2132. but I will say

  2133. as an editor

  2134. that I think

  2135. that the science skeptics view

  2136. and the biblical skeptics view

  2137. are not well acquainted

  2138. with the Bible,

  2139. basically.

  2140. I think that those views

  2141. are difficult to hold

  2142. when taking the Bible seriously

  2143. or taking science seriously.

  2144. If you take the Bible seriously,

  2145. you should be taking science

  2146. at least a little seriously,

  2147. like we talked earlier, right?

  2148. So I think these are

  2149. difficult to hold,

  2150. but there are people

  2151. who hold them,

  2152. so this is helping,

  2153. trying to help us

  2154. to understand.

  2155. So let's go through.

  2156. You're talking to one

  2157. of your fellow Christians,

  2158. and you hear them

  2159. talking about

  2160. the kingdom temple view

  2161. of their interpretation

  2162. of Genesis 1,

  2163. and maybe they're

  2164. somewhere on this spectrum,

  2165. right?

  2166. In their views

  2167. of how you balance

  2168. these things.

  2169. and you are

  2170. over here,

  2171. right?

  2172. Your visceral reaction

  2173. to discussing with them

  2174. is that you believe

  2175. that they are compromising

  2176. the authority of Scripture

  2177. in their interpretations

  2178. of the Bible

  2179. because they're weighing

  2180. general revelation more,

  2181. right?

  2182. So you're saying,

  2183. look,

  2184. special revelation,

  2185. it's getting lighter,

  2186. right?

  2187. It feels like

  2188. they are accommodating,

  2189. they are compromising

  2190. their view,

  2191. and I think that

  2192. may contribute

  2193. to that feeling

  2194. of,

  2195. oh no,

  2196. I need,

  2197. we are meant

  2198. to protect

  2199. the witness of Scripture,

  2200. and I feel like

  2201. you're copping out,

  2202. essentially,

  2203. on this,

  2204. right?

  2205. And it goes

  2206. the other direction,

  2207. right?

  2208. If you're over here,

  2209. and you hear

  2210. a group over here

  2211. talking,

  2212. you may be thinking,

  2213. wow,

  2214. do you not care

  2215. what the Bible says

  2216. about what we can learn

  2217. from nature?

  2218. Do you think that

  2219. really there's nothing

  2220. that we can learn?

  2221. So there's almost

  2222. a friction there

  2223. about almost

  2224. like an anti-intellectualism.

  2225. You're like,

  2226. oh man,

  2227. they don't really,

  2228. they don't really get it,

  2229. you know,

  2230. they're not thinking

  2231. very clearly,

  2232. et cetera,

  2233. right?

  2234. But oftentimes,

  2235. these are in the background,

  2236. right?

  2237. In our mind,

  2238. and we're really dealing

  2239. with the interpretations,

  2240. right?

  2241. We're talking about

  2242. Genesis 1,

  2243. we're talking about

  2244. the best way

  2245. to translate it,

  2246. et cetera,

  2247. when in reality,

  2248. a lot of the heat,

  2249. a lot of the rancor

  2250. is coming from this.

  2251. I don't believe

  2252. that you are taking

  2253. the Bible seriously,

  2254. or I don't believe

  2255. that you're taking

  2256. the nature seriously,

  2257. right?

  2258. And that is what's

  2259. causing the discussion.

  2260. So what I would suggest

  2261. when we're having

  2262. these discussions

  2263. is bring it up,

  2264. right?

  2265. Bring up these,

  2266. you don't have to

  2267. use this language,

  2268. but bring it up

  2269. and say,

  2270. this is what I believe

  2271. about how we are

  2272. meant to understand

  2273. nature in special

  2274. revelation,

  2275. you know?

  2276. Think about these

  2277. different views.

  2278. Think about,

  2279. I'm sure as you're

  2280. sitting here,

  2281. you're listening to me

  2282. talk and you're saying,

  2283. ah, wow,

  2284. I identify more

  2285. with this group

  2286. than with another group,

  2287. right?

  2288. Maybe this is the

  2289. first time you've

  2290. ever thought about it.

  2291. But it's important

  2292. for us to think

  2293. about it because

  2294. this other group

  2295. is going to have

  2296. a different view

  2297. and as Orthodox

  2298. Christians,

  2299. as many people

  2300. who hold these

  2301. views are,

  2302. you're not going

  2303. to have a productive

  2304. dialogue if we're,

  2305. we are questioning

  2306. each other's motives,

  2307. right?

  2308. So that's my goal

  2309. in this entire class

  2310. is how can I bring

  2311. the information

  2312. from these debates

  2313. to us in a way

  2314. that can help us

  2315. to maintain unity

  2316. in the body,

  2317. okay?

  2318. And so you may be

  2319. asking yourself,

  2320. what on earth

  2321. does this have to do

  2322. with the telenovels

  2323. design of theistic

  2324. evolution,

  2325. right?

  2326. I thought this is

  2327. what this class

  2328. is about.

  2329. Well, you'll find

  2330. that it is actually

  2331. central,

  2332. okay?

  2333. Because if you,

  2334. if you,

  2335. your view of

  2336. Scripture

  2337. as an Orthodox

  2338. Christian,

  2339. when we believe

  2340. that Scripture

  2341. is our highest

  2342. authority,

  2343. our interpretation

  2344. of Scripture

  2345. provides the boundary

  2346. line of what is

  2347. possible,

  2348. what is possibly

  2349. true,

  2350. right?

  2351. It creates a window

  2352. in which certain

  2353. things can be true

  2354. and other things

  2355. have to be false,

  2356. right?

  2357. This is just how,

  2358. just how it works.

  2359. And so,

  2360. if you take

  2361. a,

  2362. either a young

  2363. earth creationist

  2364. or maybe an,

  2365. a ancient science

  2366. interpretation

  2367. of the Bible,

  2368. oftentimes,

  2369. this interpretation

  2370. of the Bible

  2371. essentially makes

  2372. any kind of

  2373. evolutionary mechanism

  2374. untenable,

  2375. right?

  2376. It's un,

  2377. it's unimaginable.

  2378. The Bible is,

  2379. the witness of the

  2380. Bible is this,

  2381. and therefore,

  2382. any kind of

  2383. evolution

  2384. is not going to be

  2385. allowed

  2386. for Christians.

  2387. And you often hear

  2388. Christians talking

  2389. this way,

  2390. who hold these

  2391. kinds of views,

  2392. right?

  2393. the Bible clearly

  2394. says that evolution

  2395. is impossible,

  2396. or et cetera.

  2397. And they may be

  2398. right,

  2399. right?

  2400. But that's,

  2401. that's them talking

  2402. from their

  2403. philosophical position

  2404. based on their

  2405. interpretation and

  2406. what is possible

  2407. and what is not

  2408. possible.

  2409. You know,

  2410. flipping the,

  2411. flipping the coin

  2412. here,

  2413. if you have

  2414. a creation poem

  2415. or religion-only

  2416. interpretation of the

  2417. Bible,

  2418. that really,

  2419. logically,

  2420. at least,

  2421. leaves open the

  2422. possibility of some

  2423. sort of evolutionary

  2424. mechanism,

  2425. right?

  2426. Because the Bible

  2427. isn't saying it's

  2428. not happening,

  2429. right?

  2430. So it could have

  2431. been happening,

  2432. right?

  2433. We're just saying

  2434. that in these

  2435. different interpretations,

  2436. we're just saying

  2437. Genesis isn't telling

  2438. us one way or the

  2439. other whether some

  2440. sort of evolutionary

  2441. mechanism or not

  2442. happened,

  2443. right?

  2444. So you can imagine

  2445. somebody who is a

  2446. theistic evolutionist

  2447. who holds one of

  2448. these interpretations

  2449. and they have a

  2450. sort of a different

  2451. window of what is

  2452. allowable,

  2453. right?

  2454. And so these are

  2455. going to be,

  2456. these are going to be

  2457. the first barrier in

  2458. any conversation

  2459. between Christians

  2460. on intelligent

  2461. design or

  2462. theistic evolution,

  2463. what is allowable,

  2464. right?

  2465. And so having a

  2466. discussion of what

  2467. I believe is

  2468. allowable based on

  2469. Genesis is a

  2470. helpful discussion,

  2471. right?

  2472. And doing it

  2473. without,

  2474. you know,

  2475. attacking each

  2476. other and being,

  2477. you know,

  2478. generally mean.

  2479. Not to say you

  2480. can't be vigorous,

  2481. you know?

  2482. Me and my

  2483. brothers,

  2484. I have eight,

  2485. I have,

  2486. no,

  2487. I don't have

  2488. eight brothers,

  2489. I have six

  2490. brothers.

  2491. Not a huge

  2492. difference,

  2493. right?

  2494. But,

  2495. you know,

  2496. we disagree,

  2497. we argue back

  2498. and forth,

  2499. you know,

  2500. sometimes vehemently,

  2501. no blows are

  2502. thrown,

  2503. but we can argue

  2504. rigorously without

  2505. declaring anathema

  2506. on each other.

  2507. That's the goal,

  2508. right?

  2509. So,

  2510. that is today's

  2511. class.

  2512. How do you

  2513. balance general

  2514. and special

  2515. revelation?

  2516. What does that

  2517. allow?

  2518. What interpretations

  2519. of Genesis do

  2520. these different

  2521. philosophical views

  2522. tend to support?

  2523. And how that can

  2524. help us in our

  2525. discussions with

  2526. each other.

  2527. So,

  2528. next class,

  2529. I'm going to be

  2530. actually comparing

  2531. intelligent design and

  2532. theistic evolution

  2533. on the merits,

  2534. hopefully.

  2535. and then talking

  2536. about the second

  2537. tension in

  2538. creationism,

  2539. which is really

  2540. the philosophical

  2541. position that is

  2542. going to decide

  2543. between,

  2544. well,

  2545. actually,

  2546. I shouldn't say

  2547. that.

  2548. It's going to be

  2549. the philosophical

  2550. position that

  2551. predisposes you

  2552. to find one more

  2553. compelling than the

  2554. other.

  2555. Although,

  2556. that may be a

  2557. little more

  2558. simplistic.

  2559. We'll talk about

  2560. it next week.

  2561. But with that,

  2562. anybody have any

  2563. questions?

  2564. Questions?

  2565. It indicates

  2566. last week's

  2567. recording,

  2568. because I had

  2569. the mic,

  2570. was the best

  2571. we ever got.

  2572. So,

  2573. appreciate your

  2574. patience with

  2575. this process.

  2576. As a scientist,

  2577. I wonder,

  2578. how do you

  2579. evaluate this

  2580. current science?

  2581. And,

  2582. because the

  2583. science today is

  2584. different than the

  2585. science 50 years

  2586. ago,

  2587. different than the

  2588. science 100 years

  2589. ago,

  2590. whereas God's

  2591. word is

  2592. infallible,

  2593. will always be

  2594. correct,

  2595. but not to say

  2596. that their

  2597. intention,

  2598. but how do you

  2599. have a healthy

  2600. skepticism of,

  2601. as a scientist,

  2602. and evaluating

  2603. the evidence

  2604. and what

  2605. general revelation

  2606. has to teach

  2607. us.

  2608. So,

  2609. how do I

  2610. have a healthy

  2611. skepticism?

  2612. Very easily.

  2613. By being a

  2614. scientist.

  2615. If you,

  2616. if you,

  2617. I don't know

  2618. how many,

  2619. if there are

  2620. any scientists

  2621. in the crowd

  2622. here,

  2623. but once you

  2624. get into

  2625. science,

  2626. you start to

  2627. see,

  2628. like,

  2629. oh,

  2630. wow,

  2631. okay,

  2632. so people are

  2633. wrong a lot,

  2634. all the time.

  2635. And people

  2636. are,

  2637. are not,

  2638. you know,

  2639. we try to

  2640. imagine science

  2641. as sort of

  2642. this ivory

  2643. tower sort

  2644. of deal

  2645. where,

  2646. you know,

  2647. you have

  2648. old,

  2649. wizened men

  2650. discussing

  2651. with each

  2652. other in

  2653. clear,

  2654. you know,

  2655. calming tones,

  2656. but in

  2657. reality,

  2658. you know,

  2659. human beings

  2660. are the same

  2661. everywhere,

  2662. right?

  2663. So you may

  2664. have a,

  2665. a advanced

  2666. degree in

  2667. some sort

  2668. of,

  2669. in some

  2670. scientific

  2671. endeavor,

  2672. but you're

  2673. going to have

  2674. your own

  2675. predispositions,

  2676. your own

  2677. biases,

  2678. your own

  2679. reasons for

  2680. wanting this

  2681. specific

  2682. interpretation

  2683. of data

  2684. to be true,

  2685. right?

  2686. I don't,

  2687. I can't tell

  2688. how many

  2689. times I've,

  2690. I've listened

  2691. to a talk

  2692. from somebody

  2693. who is

  2694. arguing for

  2695. some sort

  2696. of interpretation

  2697. of the

  2698. evidence,

  2699. and is

  2700. primarily weighing

  2701. whether it's

  2702. true or not

  2703. on whether he

  2704. discovered it

  2705. or not,

  2706. right?

  2707. So,

  2708. and next

  2709. week,

  2710. I'm going

  2711. to start

  2712. off similarly

  2713. to how I

  2714. started off

  2715. today about

  2716. understanding

  2717. hermeneutics

  2718. and what

  2719. are we

  2720. looking for,

  2721. right?

  2722. There is a

  2723. meaning to

  2724. scripture as

  2725. Christians that

  2726. we believe is

  2727. 100% true.

  2728. Our job is

  2729. to align our

  2730. understanding of

  2731. scripture to

  2732. that meaning,

  2733. right?

  2734. And that is our

  2735. goal as Christians

  2736. in the same way

  2737. in the sciences,

  2738. okay?

  2739. A lot of,

  2740. and this is

  2741. causing a lot

  2742. of confusion

  2743. for non-scientists,

  2744. and I don't

  2745. think it's

  2746. because of

  2747. their ignorance,

  2748. I think it's

  2749. because a lot

  2750. of scientists

  2751. are bad

  2752. communicators

  2753. or want to

  2754. inflate their

  2755. own sense of

  2756. value,

  2757. but I digress

  2758. in the sense

  2759. that there is

  2760. a reasonable

  2761. way that we

  2762. can look at

  2763. the evidence

  2764. and withhold

  2765. judgment

  2766. about

  2767. necessarily

  2768. what the

  2769. interpretation

  2770. of that

  2771. evidence is,

  2772. right?

  2773. It's not like

  2774. science is

  2775. different than

  2776. other fields

  2777. in which the

  2778. correct answer

  2779. just presents

  2780. itself,

  2781. you know,

  2782. you're looking

  2783. in a microscope

  2784. and it says,

  2785. this is the

  2786. right way to

  2787. understand this,

  2788. right?

  2789. It doesn't

  2790. happen that

  2791. way.

  2792. We see

  2793. evidence,

  2794. we collect

  2795. evidence using

  2796. specific devices

  2797. that are meant

  2798. to collect

  2799. specific kinds

  2800. of evidence,

  2801. and then using

  2802. that,

  2803. trying to

  2804. pool it,

  2805. we get

  2806. what we

  2807. think is an

  2808. interpretation

  2809. that makes

  2810. sense of

  2811. everything.

  2812. That's the

  2813. idea.

  2814. And yes,

  2815. you're right,

  2816. over the history

  2817. of science,

  2818. there have

  2819. been wild,

  2820. wildly wrong

  2821. interpretations of

  2822. the evidence,

  2823. but what I

  2824. will say is

  2825. there has

  2826. rarely ever

  2827. been a

  2828. situation in

  2829. which the

  2830. evidence

  2831. itself has

  2832. been wrong.

  2833. Okay?

  2834. So that's the

  2835. distinction I want

  2836. to make.

  2837. Interpretation

  2838. versus evidence.

  2839. Right?

  2840. Okay.

  2841. I just want

  2842. to point out

  2843. that the same

  2844. question could be

  2845. asked of the

  2846. Bible.

  2847. Our

  2848. interpretations

  2849. of the Bible

  2850. have,

  2851. you know,

  2852. to put it

  2853. politely,

  2854. say,

  2855. matured over

  2856. the years.

  2857. You know,

  2858. so I,

  2859. you know,

  2860. I grew up

  2861. in,

  2862. you know,

  2863. the creation,

  2864. you know,

  2865. seven-day.

  2866. Right,

  2867. yeah.

  2868. Right,

  2869. and then as

  2870. I've matured

  2871. and,

  2872. you know,

  2873. heard the

  2874. different evidence,

  2875. largely because

  2876. I've been parts

  2877. of,

  2878. you know,

  2879. different,

  2880. you know,

  2881. faith communities.

  2882. Right.

  2883. Been able to

  2884. go,

  2885. well,

  2886. you know,

  2887. it's plausible,

  2888. you know,

  2889. and see

  2890. merit for

  2891. all the

  2892. views.

  2893. Yeah.

  2894. Yeah,

  2895. I think it's,

  2896. sorry,

  2897. go ahead.

  2898. Yeah,

  2899. so I'm just

  2900. saying,

  2901. like,

  2902. you know,

  2903. you can ask,

  2904. you know,

  2905. somebody who

  2906. was,

  2907. like,

  2908. all on the

  2909. science end

  2910. of things

  2911. could ask

  2912. a Christian

  2913. the same

  2914. question,

  2915. is my main

  2916. point,

  2917. is that on

  2918. both sides

  2919. of the aisle

  2920. on this

  2921. issue,

  2922. we need to

  2923. be open

  2924. to maybe

  2925. we're wrong.

  2926. Yeah,

  2927. and I think

  2928. that's a good

  2929. point.

  2930. What I was

  2931. trying to get

  2932. across in the

  2933. beginning of

  2934. this class

  2935. is the

  2936. difference

  2937. between the

  2938. biblical

  2939. information that

  2940. we have,

  2941. that we all

  2942. share,

  2943. and our

  2944. different

  2945. interpretations

  2946. of the text,

  2947. how we

  2948. understand them.

  2949. Right?

  2950. There is a

  2951. difference.

  2952. Now,

  2953. I will say

  2954. that scripture

  2955. does have a

  2956. leg up on

  2957. science,

  2958. because scripture

  2959. is verbal

  2960. communication,

  2961. and verbal

  2962. communication

  2963. is,

  2964. I would

  2965. say,

  2966. lends itself

  2967. to

  2968. perspicuity.

  2969. Am I saying

  2970. that right?

  2971. Yes.

  2972. So I can't

  2973. even say it,

  2974. I'll explain

  2975. what it means.

  2976. Basically,

  2977. it lends

  2978. itself to

  2979. understanding,

  2980. ease of

  2981. understanding.

  2982. Right?

  2983. It's easier,

  2984. so I mean,

  2985. we all experience

  2986. this,

  2987. right?

  2988. It's easier

  2989. for us to be

  2990. taught something

  2991. than for us

  2992. to go out

  2993. and learn

  2994. it for

  2995. ourselves.

  2996. That's the

  2997. whole reason

  2998. we have

  2999. teachers,

  3000. right?

  3001. And so if

  3002. we think

  3003. of the

  3004. Bible as

  3005. a teacher,

  3006. then just

  3007. in the sense

  3008. that it is

  3009. verbal

  3010. communication,

  3011. it has a

  3012. leg up in

  3013. terms of

  3014. ease of

  3015. understanding,

  3016. right?

  3017. But you're

  3018. right in

  3019. the sense

  3020. that we

  3021. as the

  3022. audience still

  3023. have a job

  3024. of interpreting,

  3025. right?

  3026. As is true

  3027. in any kind

  3028. of communication.

  3029. I would say

  3030. science has

  3031. one leg

  3032. away in

  3033. terms of

  3034. the effort

  3035. that's required

  3036. to understand

  3037. what's going

  3038. on.

  3039. But no

  3040. matter how

  3041. it is,

  3042. you're never

  3043. going to have

  3044. the correct

  3045. understanding

  3046. of something

  3047. just plopped

  3048. into your

  3049. head,

  3050. right?

  3051. Outside of

  3052. the work

  3053. of the

  3054. Holy Spirit,

  3055. right?

  3056. And that's

  3057. part of what

  3058. we believe

  3059. as Reformed

  3060. Christians

  3061. is that

  3062. the

  3063. perspicuity

  3064. of Scripture

  3065. is a

  3066. result of

  3067. the Holy

  3068. Spirit

  3069. working in

  3070. our hearts

  3071. to understand

  3072. what's going

  3073. on.

  3074. And that

  3075. generally

  3076. applies to

  3077. the big

  3078. major themes

  3079. of the

  3080. Bible,

  3081. redemption,

  3082. the nature

  3083. of Jesus,

  3084. etc.

  3085. That's not

  3086. to say

  3087. that you're

  3088. not a

  3089. holy

  3090. Christian

  3091. if you have

  3092. difficulty

  3093. understanding

  3094. passages.

  3095. Everybody

  3096. does,

  3097. right?

  3098. There are

  3099. passages that

  3100. are difficult

  3101. for anybody

  3102. to

  3103. understand

  3104. no matter

  3105. where you

  3106. are on

  3107. the creation

  3108. spectrum,

  3109. right?

  3110. But yeah,

  3111. that's something

  3112. we have to

  3113. be aware

  3114. of.

  3115. I think

  3116. especially

  3117. in some

  3118. circles in

  3119. the church,

  3120. there is

  3121. an over

  3122. reliance

  3123. or an

  3124. over

  3125. estimation

  3126. of the

  3127. clearness

  3128. of Scripture,

  3129. right?

  3130. And that's

  3131. something we

  3132. have to guard

  3133. against.

  3134. Where would

  3135. you put

  3136. a non-overlapping

  3137. magisteria

  3138. sort of

  3139. view

  3140. on your

  3141. little

  3142. spectrum?

  3143. So that

  3144. would be,

  3145. I would

  3146. say,

  3147. that would

  3148. probably

  3149. fit best

  3150. in the

  3151. religion-only

  3152. interpretations

  3153. of the

  3154. Bible.

  3155. Basically

  3156. saying that

  3157. the Bible

  3158. and science

  3159. are

  3160. completely

  3161. different

  3162. epistemic

  3163. endeavors,

  3164. right?

  3165. Totally

  3166. different ways

  3167. of knowing,

  3168. and therefore

  3169. because they're

  3170. totally different

  3171. ways of knowing,

  3172. they never

  3173. overlap,

  3174. right?

  3175. There is no

  3176. possible way

  3177. that Scripture

  3178. could ever be

  3179. contradicted by

  3180. science,

  3181. and vice

  3182. versa,

  3183. right?

  3184. They're

  3185. completely

  3186. separate.

  3187. I think

  3188. that that

  3189. is not a

  3190. high enough

  3191. view of

  3192. Scripture,

  3193. and I think

  3194. the reason

  3195. for that

  3196. is because

  3197. Scripture

  3198. itself

  3199. puts forward

  3200. itself as

  3201. history.

  3202. So by

  3203. using the

  3204. non-overlapping

  3205. magisteria,

  3206. you wouldn't

  3207. be able to

  3208. say that,

  3209. oh,

  3210. Jesus really

  3211. existed in

  3212. real life,

  3213. in history,

  3214. right?

  3215. Because the

  3216. study of

  3217. history is

  3218. its own

  3219. little thing,

  3220. and we

  3221. can't really

  3222. use the

  3223. study of

  3224. history to

  3225. apply itself

  3226. to Scripture.

  3227. And maybe

  3228. they would

  3229. say,

  3230. no,

  3231. history is

  3232. just as

  3233. bad as

  3234. Scripture

  3235. in terms of

  3236. understanding,

  3237. and we're

  3238. talking about

  3239. hard science

  3240. here,

  3241. right?

  3242. But I

  3243. think that

  3244. that is

  3245. the problem.

  3246. Where do

  3247. you place

  3248. history?

  3249. Because

  3250. Scripture is

  3251. undeniably

  3252. history,

  3253. in some

  3254. places at

  3255. least,

  3256. right?

  3257. You know,

  3258. there's

  3259. discussion

  3260. whether

  3261. Job is

  3262. a real

  3263. person that

  3264. lived in

  3265. the real

  3266. world,

  3267. or is

  3268. it a

  3269. poem

  3270. describing

  3271. whatever,

  3272. right?

  3273. So there

  3274. are places

  3275. in Scripture

  3276. where we

  3277. argue,

  3278. like,

  3279. oh,

  3280. is this

  3281. meant to

  3282. be

  3283. history,

  3284. or is

  3285. this

  3286. meant to

  3287. be

  3288. a

  3289. parable?

  3290. But there

  3291. are parts

  3292. that are

  3293. definitely

  3294. history,

  3295. or meant

  3296. to be

  3297. history.

  3298. And so

  3299. depending on

  3300. where you

  3301. put history

  3302. in your

  3303. magisteria,

  3304. that's going

  3305. to make

  3306. major problems

  3307. for Christians,

  3308. right?

  3309. And usually

  3310. I've found

  3311. that the

  3312. non-overlapping

  3313. magisterium is

  3314. put forward

  3315. by scientists

  3316. generally,

  3317. who just

  3318. don't want

  3319. to deal

  3320. with

  3321. Christians.

  3322. That's been

  3323. my thought,

  3324. like,

  3325. oh,

  3326. yeah,

  3327. but really

  3328. they're just

  3329. totally separate,

  3330. so we don't

  3331. have to argue

  3332. about it.

  3333. It's like,

  3334. okay,

  3335. well,

  3336. I don't

  3337. think that

  3338. does Scripture

  3339. justice.

  3340. Hey,

  3341. Luke,

  3342. thanks so

  3343. much.

  3344. I had a

  3345. question about

  3346. your further

  3347. reading section

  3348. in your handout,

  3349. and I've only,

  3350. I mean,

  3351. some of these

  3352. authors I've

  3353. read a little

  3354. bit from,

  3355. I don't know

  3356. if I've read,

  3357. I think I've

  3358. read one or

  3359. two of the

  3360. resources,

  3361. but something

  3362. that struck

  3363. me,

  3364. at least in

  3365. my not,

  3366. you know,

  3367. perhaps not

  3368. representative

  3369. sampling,

  3370. was that they

  3371. didn't seem

  3372. to do what

  3373. you're recommending

  3374. we do.

  3375. Like,

  3376. they didn't seem

  3377. like they were

  3378. really dealing

  3379. with the deeper

  3380. issues,

  3381. they were just

  3382. kind of stating

  3383. their view,

  3384. sometimes making

  3385. really good

  3386. observations,

  3387. but then I also

  3388. felt like there

  3389. were a lot of

  3390. weaknesses in

  3391. their views,

  3392. that they weren't

  3393. really attending

  3394. to or acknowledging.

  3395. Anyway,

  3396. I was wondering

  3397. if you could

  3398. give a little

  3399. overview of

  3400. these further

  3401. reading resources

  3402. or potential

  3403. ones that

  3404. might do,

  3405. maybe do what

  3406. you're doing,

  3407. or maybe none

  3408. of them do.

  3409. Yeah,

  3410. yeah,

  3411. no,

  3412. I'm not that

  3413. good.

  3414. I didn't print

  3415. out the further

  3416. reading for myself.

  3417. Somebody hand me

  3418. that to me?

  3419. Yeah.

  3420. Thank you.

  3421. Excellent.

  3422. Okay,

  3423. so closest thing

  3424. I would say on

  3425. the further reading

  3426. list for an

  3427. overview is the

  3428. John Lennox

  3429. book,

  3430. Seven Days

  3431. That Divide

  3432. the World.

  3433. This is John

  3434. C. Lennox,

  3435. he's a famous

  3436. Irish apologist

  3437. slash evangelist.

  3438. He's a really

  3439. smart guy.

  3440. Also,

  3441. he sounds really

  3442. cool when he

  3443. talks.

  3444. Yeah,

  3445. he's Oxford

  3446. trained.

  3447. He spoke here.

  3448. Did he really?

  3449. Of course,

  3450. I wasn't here.

  3451. Anyways,

  3452. so John C.

  3453. Lennox,

  3454. his Seven Days

  3455. That Divide

  3456. the World,

  3457. that's an overview

  3458. book.

  3459. He talks about

  3460. the different

  3461. views.

  3462. And I think

  3463. he does touch

  3464. a little bit

  3465. on the

  3466. philosophical

  3467. issues of

  3468. why we

  3469. would believe

  3470. one versus

  3471. the other.

  3472. Okay?

  3473. These different

  3474. resources I have

  3475. here are

  3476. specific arguments

  3477. for one

  3478. particular view.

  3479. And so,

  3480. like I was

  3481. talking about

  3482. earlier when

  3483. we're having

  3484. discussions with

  3485. Christians,

  3486. oftentimes we

  3487. have our own

  3488. view and we're

  3489. arguing for that

  3490. view with

  3491. these philosophical

  3492. issues not really

  3493. in view.

  3494. view.

  3495. view.

  3496. And so,

  3497. you're going to

  3498. find that

  3499. in these

  3500. different books.

  3501. I have found

  3502. myself that the

  3503. books by C.

  3504. John Collins,

  3505. who takes the

  3506. analogical day view,

  3507. he does interact

  3508. more with other

  3509. views and explain

  3510. why sometimes people

  3511. come to one

  3512. conclusion versus

  3513. the other.

  3514. But it's not the

  3515. primary part of

  3516. his book.

  3517. The primary part of

  3518. his book is,

  3519. this is why I'm

  3520. right.

  3521. Or this is the

  3522. correct way of

  3523. understanding it.

  3524. And I think

  3525. there's a place for

  3526. that.

  3527. I think,

  3528. obviously,

  3529. there has to be a

  3530. place for that.

  3531. We have to argue,

  3532. we have to come to

  3533. a conclusion and

  3534. argue for our view.

  3535. And that's true of

  3536. everything that I

  3537. think.

  3538. You should make up

  3539. your mind about

  3540. what you believe and

  3541. why you believe it.

  3542. So,

  3543. I don't want to

  3544. come across as

  3545. somebody who says

  3546. that,

  3547. you know,

  3548. really,

  3549. we're all right

  3550. and,

  3551. you know,

  3552. we should just

  3553. hug.

  3554. I think we all

  3555. have our own

  3556. views and we

  3557. have potentially

  3558. good reasons for

  3559. the way that we

  3560. think about things

  3561. and that the only

  3562. way we're going

  3563. to become,

  3564. you know,

  3565. better and more

  3566. mature Christians

  3567. is if we are

  3568. sharpening each

  3569. other iron style,

  3570. right?

  3571. But I can't

  3572. think of any

  3573. other big

  3574. overview books

  3575. other than

  3576. the seven days

  3577. that divide

  3578. the world.

  3579. My reading is

  3580. actually quite

  3581. limited.

  3582. No,

  3583. I mean,

  3584. I've read,

  3585. sorry,

  3586. I've read a lot

  3587. of books on

  3588. the different

  3589. views,

  3590. but I haven't

  3591. read that many

  3592. books about

  3593. the views about

  3594. the views.

  3595. Does that make

  3596. sense?

  3597. Yeah.

  3598. This is,

  3599. which is why I

  3600. thought it was

  3601. helpful to do

  3602. the class this

  3603. way,

  3604. right?

  3605. Because there's

  3606. so many resources

  3607. out there for

  3608. any particular

  3609. view,

  3610. but trying to

  3611. understand why

  3612. we come to the

  3613. conclusions we do

  3614. is,

  3615. yeah.

  3616. It sounds like

  3617. you have a job

  3618. to do then.

  3619. I think you've

  3620. got to write

  3621. this book.

  3622. I hope not.

  3623. Somebody who's a

  3624. writer should be

  3625. doing that.

  3626. I'm a,

  3627. I'm a,

  3628. I'm more of a

  3629. talker.

  3630. I talk better

  3631. than I write.

  3632. Yeah,

  3633. yeah.

  3634. Maybe I'll do

  3635. like a C.S.

  3636. Lewis style,

  3637. I'll do a bunch

  3638. of radio things

  3639. and then eventually

  3640. somebody will

  3641. transcribe it into

  3642. a book.

  3643. I hope not,

  3644. man.

  3645. Nobody should

  3646. ever listen to me

  3647. in anything I say.

  3648. Cool,

  3649. any other

  3650. questions?

  3651. All righty.

  3652. Well,

  3653. thank you guys so

  3654. much for coming.

  3655. I hope to see you

  3656. next week.

  3657. Thank you.

  3658. Thank you.

  3659. Thank you.

  3660. Thank you.