Christmas, December 25, and the Birth of Jesus

in prayer together.

Father in heaven, we thank you for this chance to gather together,

to fellowship, to worship you.

We pray that your spirit would be with us in this hour

as we learn about the origin of Christmas.

But above all, Father, we ask that we would rejoice

at the birth of your Son, our Savior.

We thank you that more than 2,000 years ago,

you sent him to be born for us and to live and minister

and walk among us, to forgive sins and to heal

and to suffer and rise again on the third day.

Father, we ask that his resurrection would be powerful to us, Lord,

that we would feel it in our inmost being, that deposit,

that promise that you have given to us of eternal life

with you forever.

And we pray this in the name of your Son, Jesus.

Amen.

Okay, everybody.

So welcome to our class on the date of Christmas.

We're going to talk about a few things today.

We're going to talk about when was Jesus born?

We're going to answer that question.

We're also going to ask the question,

was Christmas originally a pagan holiday?

Because if you're familiar, popular culture will often say

that Christmas is based on an old ancient Roman pagan holiday

that was adopted by Christians because they wanted

the birth of Jesus to resonate with, you know, a pagan society,

and they wanted to make Christianity attractive.

So they chose this date to get, you know,

some of those pagans to come around to worshiping Jesus.

We're going to look at that question.

And then we're also going to look at another question,

which is just, does it really matter what day Jesus was born

or if Christmas was based on a pagan holiday?

And we're going to go in reverse order.

So we're going to start with this one here about whether it really matters.

And to talk about whether it matters,

we're going to listen to someone who has some wise things to say.

And I'm speaking about the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Romans.

And he says in Romans chapter 13, he says,

Romans 13 · chapter mention

one person esteems one day as better than another,

while another esteems all days alike.

Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

The one who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord,

and the one who eats eats in honor of the Lord,

since he gives thanks to God,

while the one who abstains abstains in honor of the Lord

and gives thanks to God.

For none of us lives to himself and none of us dies to himself.

So what Paul is saying here,

he's in a context where people are arguing about

what days they should celebrate and mark.

If you look at the Old Testament,

there's a lot of holidays in the Old Testament,

and there were disputes in the early church

about whether Christians needed to or should follow those,

or whether it was even wrong to follow those.

And Paul here gives like a very sort of moderate position

where he says, you know,

really the most important thing he says

is that you should be,

let me see if I can get my little spotlight here,

you should be fully convinced in your own mind.

So for Paul, all days are made by God.

And if we choose to mark a day to worship God,

that's great.

If we choose to mark a day to go about

the other things God has called us to do,

no matter what we choose,

we're all following God in this.

And Paul gives a little bit more advice.

He goes on in the same passage.

He says, why do you pass judgment on your brother or you?

Why do you despise your brother?

For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer,

but rather decide never to put a stumbling block

or a hindrance in the way of a brother.

What Paul is saying here is that

not only should we be convinced in our own minds

about what days to celebrate and mark,

he says we shouldn't pass judgment

on people who think differently,

that we should be merciful

and that we should,

and whatever we do,

we should not put a stumbling block

or a hindrance in the way of another brother

as they're coming to Jesus.

And whether that means observing a day

or not observing a day,

we should do it all for the glory of God

and for the benefit of other people.

Now, some of you might be reading this

and thinking, okay, that's well and good,

but maybe there's a difference

if what we're talking about has pagan roots.

So maybe it's okay what Paul is saying

if we're talking about days and stuff

that have to do with Old Testament law

and things like that

and whether we should follow it,

but what if it's not Old Testament law?

What if it's, you know, a pagan holiday?

What about that?

Well, Paul also addresses a similar issue

in another letter.

He says to the Corinthians

in his first letter, chapter eight,

he's talking about if people should eat food

offered to idols

because back in the day

when Rome was a polytheistic society,

you'd go to the marketplace to get your meat

and a lot of the meat

had actually been sacrificed to an idol at some point.

And Christians were wondering,

should I eat this?

Has it been permanently contaminated?

And this is what Paul says.

He says,

As to eating a food offered to idols,

we know that an idol has no real existence

and that there is no God but one.

However, not all possess this knowledge,

but some, through former association with idols,

eat food as really offered to an idol

and their conscience being weak is defiled.

Food, he says,

will not commend us to God.

We are no worse off if we do not eat

and no better off if we do.

But take care that this right of yours

does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

And so what Paul is saying here is,

well, of course it's bad to worship idols,

but if you're just eating meat,

it's not inherently contaminated.

However, if, you know,

obviously if you used to worship idols in this way,

then it might be hard for you to do it

and then you shouldn't do it.

You should follow your conscience.

He says,

Above all,

you should follow your conscience

and you should not do anything

that causes another brother or sister to stumble.

Now, when we kind of take this thinking

and apply it to the date of December 25th,

the birthday of Jesus,

which some people say is based on a pagan holiday,

I think we can come to the same conclusions,

that God made all days,

he's in charge of all of them,

and what some people did hundreds and hundreds

and hundreds of years ago

shouldn't necessarily determine

what we're going to do today.

However, we should be gracious and kind to other people

if they feel differently,

especially perhaps if they grew up thinking this way

or through former association with idols or something

and they feel like they can't celebrate it,

well, that's fine too.

And the reality is, guys,

that we do this all the time without knowing it.

So, for instance,

even the days of the week are based off of pagan days.

So, for instance,

Thursday is named after the god Thor, Thor's day,

and we still use it

because we just don't associate it with paganism anymore.

Or the months of the year,

January, Janus, god of doorways, Augustus,

he was deified,

he was a Roman god after he was emperor,

that's where the month of August comes from,

or his wife, maybe.

So we do this all the time.

And it gets, you know,

even in New Testament,

we can find this,

Apollos, he was that disciple,

associate of the apostles.

He's named after the god Apollo.

And he kept his name.

People change their names all the time

in the New Testament and Old Testament,

but he kept it.

And it was just, that was his name.

And it didn't necessarily involve paganism,

even though it may have had

some etymological connection with it.

And we could go even further

because our beloved word in the New Testament,

grace,

the three graces were actually pagan deities.

And this is in part because

the way polytheism works,

at least in the Roman Empire,

is they had gods and goddesses for everything.

So if we were going to cut all that out,

we'd be left with no streams,

no rivers,

no mountains,

no sky.

I mean, you just name it.

So we have to kind of go with Paul's advice here

or else we won't be able to do anything at all.

So that answers our first question

about does it really matter

if Christmas was a pagan holiday?

And I think the answer is,

from Paul's perspective,

it doesn't really matter.

If our conscience is bothered by it,

that's great.

We don't have to celebrate it.

But all in all,

there's nothing inherently wrong with that,

even if it was true.

But now we want to get to the other question.

Was Christmas originally a pagan holiday?

So people keep saying it,

but is it true?

It'd be kind of interesting to find out.

What's up?

I do have a question.

Is there any controversy

within different Christian traditions

about this question?

So there are,

you will,

there's a small,

small minority of people

that will make a claim.

For those of you listening at home,

the question is,

is there a current controversy

in Christian traditions

about Christmas being a pagan holiday?

And the answer is,

not really.

There has been more in the past,

like in the 17th and 18th century,

there were some theologians

that were making that claim more.

It was kind of like an anti-Catholic claim

where they were saying

that this whole Christmas thing,

it's not in the Bible,

it's a pagan holiday

that the Catholic Church adopted.

It was much more a live issue

a few centuries ago.

You'll still find some people

making that claim.

The bigger debate

in the large umbrella

of Christian traditions

is that there are people

that celebrate Christmas

on a different day,

but that's because

of calendar issues.

It's complicated,

but the Eastern Orthodox,

their calendar works differently,

so what they think

December 25th is

is a week or 10 days

or 13 days different

from our December 25th.

But you never know.

It might become

a live issue again.

So we're going to look at

where does the date of Christmas

as December 25th come from?

And how is it chosen

as the birth of Jesus?

Why do we celebrate Christmas

on December 25th?

It was a pagan holiday.

Okay, it was a pagan holiday.

It was the fifth day

of the Saturnium.

Yes, so okay.

So the traditional answer

that you'll get

of why do we celebrate Christmas

on December 25th

is that it's based

on the Roman pagan holiday

called Saturnalia,

which was this kind of long holiday

where Romans would get together

in a lot of revelry

and drinking and carousing

and stuff like that.

And it was in December.

Well, so I think scholars

are agreed that it was not

based on Saturnalia.

Yes.

Well, what it really comes down

to the emperor decided

that December 25th

was Christ's birthday

and from then on it was.

Well, it's a little more complicated.

Yeah, I know it is.

Okay.

But really,

when you break it down,

that's what happened.

So the Saturnalia,

the two holidays

that are given

for why Christmas

was chosen

as December 25th

is some people say

it was based off

of the pagan holiday

Saturnalia.

Others will give

a different holiday

that I'll talk about

in a moment.

But let's deal

with the Saturnalia thing

right now.

So if you look up

ancient practices

to do with Saturnalia,

the funny thing

is that it actually

wasn't on December 25th.

It was on different days

in December.

And as far as we can tell,

it never was on December 25th.

And so the idea

was that some people

try and make the leap

by saying that

maybe Saturnalia

was supposed to be

a fun holiday.

So maybe Christians

chose Christmas

because it was supposed

to be a fun holiday

and maybe they chose it

to be next to Saturnalia.

But it doesn't really add up.

Christmas is still

several days away.

And then originally,

remember,

Christmas was not this

kind of like

Christmas present

kind of thing.

It was a solemn occasion.

So that one

doesn't really add up.

There's another one,

though,

that makes a little more sense

that we'll talk about

in just a moment.

And to get

at why Christmas

was chosen,

we've got to go back

in the midst of time

a little bit.

What we're looking at here

is a document called

the Chronography

of 354 A.D.

It was a calendar

that was put together

by a guy named Philo Callus.

I know you can't see his name,

but it's actually written

right there.

And he wrote

in 354 A.D.

And he wrote

a calendar

for the people of Rome

and the church in Rome

in 354 A.D.

And

in this calendar,

he says

it's the first

undisputed

piece of evidence

saying that

Jesus was born

on December 25th.

So

the ironic thing

about this

is that

in another passage

in the same document,

he says

that December 25th

was also

the birthday

of what he says

is

Invictus,

which is a little

ambiguous.

It's Latin

for the unconquered one,

but it seems

to refer

to the Roman

sun god

Saul.

Saul.

Saul Invictus.

Here's a mosaic

of Saul Invictus,

the unconquered sun.

And so the other

pagan holiday

that people will say

Christmas is based off of

is the birthday

of the sun god,

the Roman sun god,

Saul Invictus.

And that

was on

December 25th.

And

so there is

an issue here

because the question is

does that word

Invictus

actually refer

to this guy?

It could refer

to Jesus.

He is the unconquered one.

You know,

he rose from the grave.

So it's a little ambiguous,

but

the birthday

of Saul Invictus

would make

sense

because

and forgive me

for being a little

astronomical here

because

December 25th

was thought

to be the winter

solstice

in the Roman calendar.

Astronomically,

it's not actually.

It's a few days earlier,

but they didn't know that.

So it was

December 25th.

December 25th

is the longest

night of the year,

the shortest day

because of the way

the Earth

rotates around the sun

or orbits around the sun

and including its tilt

in the northern hemisphere

at least.

And so

it makes sense

to have a feast

of the sun god

on the winter solstice

because that

is when

they thought

the sun god

was born,

when light

begins to

start getting stronger

and stronger

and stronger

and stronger

and stronger.

So if you're going

to pick a day

for the sun god

to be born,

it would be

that day.

So that's

an argument

that maybe

the chronography

of 354

did actually

refer to the sun god

being born

on December 25th,

which means

that our earliest

document

for the birth

of Jesus

on December 25th

also says

the sun god

was born

on December 25th.

It's one of those

weird ironies

of history.

So let's

go over

what we've found

so far.

So the chronography

of 354

was written

in 354 A.D.

It says clearly

Jesus was born

on December 25th.

But,

and this is

the earliest

undisputed reference

to this date.

But,

it also says

this guy

Invictus

was born

on December 25th

and that seems

to refer

to the sun god.

Now we've got

to connect

the dots.

Is this coincidental?

Is one based

on the other?

What's going on here?

How do we figure

out the origin

of this day

for Jesus?

It turns out

that if we do

some digging

into the festival

of the sun god

Sol Invictus,

it's another

little irony

is that

this is also

the earliest

witness for him

having a holiday

on December 25th.

All the previous

testimony

about the sun god

Invictus,

his holidays

are on different

days.

They're not

on December 25th.

They're on other

days in the calendar.

So we're kind

of at an impasse

here because

both our earliest

pieces of evidence

for both come

from exactly

the same document

and were written

exactly the same

time.

So what do we

do with this?

Why was this

chosen for the

date of Jesus'

birth?

Was it based

on the birthday

of Sol Invictus

or maybe some

other reasons?

Well, this is

where we're going

to look for a

little bit more

evidence.

And this is

going to come

from a guy

named Hippolytus

of Rome.

He wrote about

100 years before

the chronography

of 354.

He wrote between

200 and 235 A.D.

I love this guy.

I've spent a lot

of my time

researching him.

He wrote

several books.

He wrote one

called A Commentary

on Daniel

and some other

things as well.

Here's a picture

of it.

And in his

commentary on Daniel

he says something

very interesting

about the birth

of Jesus.

He says this,

For the first

advent of our

Lord in the flesh

when he was

born in Bethlehem

was April,

March,

December 25th.

It's kind of weird.

Wednesday,

while Augustus,

that's the emperor,

was reigning

in his 42nd year

but in the

5,500th year

from Adam.

He suffered

in the 33rd year

so Jesus died

in his 33rd year

of age,

March 25th,

a Friday.

So it's a little

complicated what's

going on here.

It's also a little

weird.

So he's trying

to give the day

for when he thinks

Jesus was born

but it doesn't

really make sense.

He says he was

born April,

March,

December.

And the reason

why is that

when you look

at this commentary

in the manuscripts

that we have,

they conflict.

Some of them say

Jesus was born

on December 25th.

One of them

gives this weird

double date

in the springtime.

So the problem

is that

some copies

of his commentary

say December 25th,

other copies

give a different

date.

If he really

did think

that it was

December 25th,

then we would

have some

great evidence

that the birth

of Jesus

was not chosen

based on the

feast day

of the sun god

because Hippolytus

wrote about

100 years before

that date

was first witnessed.

But we don't

know yet

because these

manuscripts

conflict.

And actually

there's a big

footnote explaining

all this

which I won't

go through.

But we're

kind of at

an impasse

here again

because another

date for Christmas

on December 25th

has conflicting

manuscript evidence.

We don't know

which is the

authentic reading

so we're at

another impasse.

He might have

said Jesus

was born

on December 25th.

We don't know.

So this is

where we need

another good

clue here.

And this is

going to come

from this

statue here.

This is

actually it's

one of the

most famous

Christian artifacts

of all time.

It seems to

be perhaps

the earliest

piece of

Christian archaeology

ever discovered

that we can

definitively date

to a specific

year.

It's called

the Statue

of Hippolytus.

Remember Hippolytus

was the guy

who wrote

that commentary.

It sits

in the

Vatican library

and on

the side

of this

statue

you can

see

you probably

can't read

it but you

can see

there's

inscriptions

all over

this thing.

And

these

inscriptions

date

from

222

AD.

And we

know that

because it

says it.

It says

it was made

in the

first year

of the

emperor

Alexander

Severus

that's

222

AD.

And we

also know

it because

what we're

looking at

here is

a calendar

and the

calendar dates

itself to

222 AD.

So we know

that's when

it was from

and we know

that it was

by Hippolytus.

And in

this calendar

he says

something

interesting.

These pictures

are a little

blurry.

I have much

better pictures

but I'm not

allowed to

show them

because I'm

not allowed to

publish them

online.

So I have

to pick a

little blurrier

ones here.

But what's

in this

box is

actually a

statement that

I know

blurry but

it says

the

Genesis

of

Christ.

In other

words in

this calendar

Hippolytus

is marking

the day

when he

thinks the

Genesis

the original

term is

Genesis

or the

birth of

Jesus

occurred.

And if

we inscribe

this inscription

this is what

it looks

like.

And there's

where he

says the

Genesis

of Christ.

So in

other words

if we

translate

this maybe

we'll figure

out when

he thought

Hippolytus

was born.

Maybe

he'll say

December

25th.

Maybe

this will

be the

proof.

Well let's

look at a

translation of

it.

Now I'm

going to

warn you

guys.

Unfortunately

we're going

to have to

do a

little bit

of math

here.

So just

be patient.

I'll get

you through

it.

Don't

worry.

So if

we translate

this I

know the

letters are

very small

here but

this is

where he

talks about

the birth

of Jesus

and I

have a

note at

the bottom

the Genesis

of Christ

and the

date it

corresponds

with is

April 2nd.

It's kind

of a

bummer.

So yeah

so he

says very

clearly it's

totally

definitive.

He says

that the

genesis of

Jesus

happened on

April 2nd

and if you

run the

numbers he

actually thinks

it's 2

BC.

2 BC

April 2nd.

He's got

other interesting

dates here like

he puts down

when he thinks

the Exodus

happened when

Jesus the

passion of

Jesus and

other things

happened as

well that we

don't have time

to go into.

But there's

still a little

puzzle here because

what actually does

he mean by

the Genesis

of Christ

anyway?

Because that

term is just

the Greek

term for

origin or

beginning.

That's where

the book of

Genesis gets

its title from.

So the

question is

what did he

think the

beginning of

Jesus was?

Was it his

birth?

Could it

have been

something else?

What do you

guys think?

Anyone?

I did.

Conception.

Could it be his

conception?

Huh.

Wait.

And what's

nine months

after April

2nd?

It's pretty

close to

December 25th.

Well, I

actually, one of

my earliest

research projects

was on this

very question.

What does he

mean when he

says Genesis

of Christ?

And if you do

a big study

and you

look at all

the writings

we have of

Hippolytus and

you look at all

the times he

uses the word

Genesis to try

and figure out

what does he

think?

The evidence is

pretty clear that

he thought it

referred to

conception.

Meaning that he

thought Jesus was

not born on

April 2nd.

He thought Jesus

was conceived on

April 2nd.

That's when the

angel Gabriel

appeared to Mary

in the Gospel

of Luke.

Which means

nine months

later, I

mean, is

like so

exactly nine

months later

is January

2nd.

But, you

know, December

25th, it's

still possible.

So, in other

words, we now

know when

Hippolytus

thought Jesus

was conceived.

We don't

know when he

thought Jesus

was born.

But we're

close.

We're homing

in on it,

right?

What we need

is, so, yeah,

let me just go

over what we've

talked about.

So, we've

talked about the

chronography of

354.

It says Jesus

was born on

December 25th.

It also says

this guy

Invictus, whoever

that is, maybe

the sun god,

maybe Jesus, was

born on December

25th.

We know that

if it is the

sun god, this is

the earliest date

for the festival

of the sun god.

So, if we want

to show that

Jesus' birth was

not based on

this, we've got

to go earlier.

And now we're

talking about

this guy,

Hippolytus of

Rome.

He's writing about

100 years before

the chronography of

354, a little

more than 100

years.

He does say

Jesus was born

on December 25th,

but there's

manuscript problems.

You know, it's

unclear if he

actually thought

that.

He definitely,

though, thinks

that Jesus was

conceived on the

Passover or early

April.

I should go back

to this little

calendar here.

All these dates

correspond with the

Passover.

Passover.

And so, when he

says Jesus was

born on April 2nd,

he's also stating

that Jesus was,

when he says Jesus

was conceived on

April 2nd, he's

also saying that

Jesus was conceived

on the Passover.

So, okay, that's

where we are now.

We're almost there.

We're almost there

to December 25th.

We need a little

bit more evidence.

Well, this evidence

comes from another

work of Hippolytus.

Hippolytus was one

of these, like, he

thought math could

prove a lot of

stuff.

So, he wrote this

kind of mathematical

and chronological

work, and in it, he

says that Jesus was

born nine months after

the anniversary of the

creation of the

world.

But he doesn't give

us when he thought

the world was

created.

Hippolytus is what

we would call a

young earther.

Like, he believed

the earth was

literally made in

six days, six 24-hour

days.

And he, the earth

was about 6,000,

5,000-something years

old.

And there were other

people in the early

church that believed

that.

There were others that

didn't, just like

today.

But he thought the

world was created on a

specific calendar day,

and that whatever day

that was, nine months

later, Jesus was born on

the anniversary of that

day.

In other words, if we

can figure out when

Hippolytus thought the

world was created, then

we just add nine months

and we get the

birthday of Jesus.

Okay?

I know it sounds weird,

and it's kind of like

mental acrobatics, and

that's because it's what

it is.

This is what Hippolytus is

doing.

He loved this kind of

stuff.

So he's throwing all

these numbers around.

So the problem is

Hippolytus never really

says when he thought the

world was created.

He doesn't just come out

and say it, but he does

tell us how to figure it

out.

And all we have to do

is start, he gives us

the formula, we start

with the conception of

Jesus, and we go back

5,500 years, I think it's

5,502 years, to find the

day when the world was

created in his little

calendar here.

And notice that there are

some dates here.

So what we're going to do

is we're going to start

here, and we're just going

to cycle through these,

and we're going to do

5,502 steps.

And when we get to here,

we're going to start

again and just keep going

until we get 5,502 years.

And notice that there is

a March 25th date.

So if we land on that

date, that would be when

Hippolytus thought the

world was created, and then

nine months from that date

is December 25th.

So it's possible.

So let's see if we can

make it happen.

So if we run the numbers

and we start here, and we

do 5,502 steps to see what

date we're going to come up

with.

Oh, we come up here, March

29th.

Oh, that was close, though,

guys.

It was pretty close.

Well, there's another little

wrinkle here.

There's another little

wrinkle here.

I know this calendar is

small and it's hard to see.

The problem is I've got to

have it all on the screen,

otherwise it won't work

properly.

But there's another wrinkle

here.

So remember that I said that

this was a Passover

calendar?

He's trying to figure out

when various Passovers

occurred.

So he thinks the world was

created on or near the

Passover, et cetera, et

cetera.

Well, there's something

interesting here.

So this number 5 here means

that it refers to the 5th day

of the week.

What is that?

Is that?

I'm really bad here, people.

Is that Friday or Thursday?

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,

Thursday.

Thursday.

Okay, Thursday.

So he thinks the world was

created on a Thursday,

apparently.

And it was March 29th of

Thursday.

Well, it turns out, if you do

a little more reading, that

that's actually when he thinks

the moon was created.

Because you can't have a

Passover without the moon.

Because the Passover happens

on the full moon.

So he thinks that's when the

moon was created.

And then if we go back,

four, no, when was the moon

created in Genesis?

What day of the week?

If we go back, we get to

March 25th, day one, Sunday.

Meaning that he did think the

world was created on March 25th.

So, actually, it's a little,

okay, yes, it's far-fetched.

But remember, we're not talking

about whether Jesus was actually

born on this day.

We're talking about where this

belief came from.

And this was Hippolytus' belief,

that he thought that the world

was kind of this cosmic ballad

that witnessed to God's creation.

And that God liked to create

things on the Passover and

vernal equinox.

He created the world on the

vernal equinox.

The Passover was five days

later.

You go throughout history,

all these various biblically

impressive events, like the

exodus occurred on the

Passover, the genesis of

Christ, the death of Jesus.

All these things happened on

the Passover, he thought.

So, in other words, we go

through our little, all our

data points here, and we can

add one more, that Jesus was

born nine months after the

anniversary of the creation of

the world, which was March

25th, and then nine months

later is, of course, December

25th.

So, in other words, this is

probably how we got the date of

December 25th.

Hippolytus seems to have settled

on this because of, he thought

that Jesus was conceived on the

Passover, the world was created on

March 25th, and he added in this

nine-month kind of gestational

period, because, of course, Jesus

being perfect would have had

exactly nine-month gestation,

right?

No more, no less.

What's also interesting is that

once we figure this out about

Hippolytus, we figure out that

other Christians pretty much said

the same thing.

This guy, Julius Africanus, in 221,

he has the same fundamental

assumptions that Hippolytus has

about the birth of Jesus.

Clement of Alexandria in 195, he's

got the same stuff going on, where

he thinks there's this Passover

link.

Jesus was conceived on the

Passover, born nine months later.

Nine months after the Passover,

remember the Passover, like Easter,

moves around on the calendar.

Nine months after it is always

around December 25th.

It's always roughly around there.

So, in other words, it's not just

Hippolytus doing this.

There's other early Christians that

are doing this as well.

And that helps us to answer our

question, was Christmas originally

chosen because it corresponded with

a pagan holiday?

Not really.

It was because certain early

Christians had this belief that the

angel Gabriel appeared to Mary on

the Passover.

And that's when they believed Jesus

was conceived, and they thought that

Jesus was therefore conceived nine

months later, so they figured, all I

got to do is figure out when Gabriel

appeared to Mary, and add exactly nine

months, because of course he would have

had a perfect nine-month justational

period, and we get his birthday.

And it also explains why the early

Christian dates for Christmas are

always a little different.

Some said December 25th.

Some say early January.

I think there's one that's mid-December.

And that's because if this is what

they're doing, they're always landing

nine months after the Passover, which

is approximately when, around December

25th, give or take a couple weeks.

Amos.

Were you saying that there's a link

between the equinox and the Passover,

like the timing?

Yeah.

So the question is, is there a link

between the Passover and the equinox?

Yes.

So, well, I won't show, I won't go all

the way back.

But there's a link because in the Bible,

I think the phrase is like, the Passover

should be celebrated on the first full moon

of the new year, and the new year is

marked, I think, when something becomes

ripe or something, and that was later

interpreted as the vernal equinox.

So Passover was always supposed to be

on the first full moon after the vernal

equinox.

And then we celebrate Easter on the first

Sunday after the Passover, because Jesus

was crucified on or near the Passover, and

then was resurrected the following Sunday.

So the vernal equinox, it's one of those

things where most ancient traditions and

religions have some celebration with the

vernal equinox.

Because it's when light begins to outshine

darkness.

Where the winter solstice is when light

starts getting stronger.

It's been getting less and less and less

for the past three months.

So there is a connection between the vernal

equinox and the Passover, because the

vernal equinox will, if you just do a lunar

cycle, so you're just counting 13 lunar cycles

in every year, eventually your lunar calendar

will just completely get disconnected to your

solar calendar.

So they insert an intercalary month, so it

never goes much beyond the vernal equinox.

So every few years they stick in an extra

lunar month.

And yeah.

Does that answer your question?

Yeah, because it sounds like, it might be

fair to say that, so you said Sol Invictus'

birth was on the winter solstice.

Yeah.

So in that sense, and it sounds like what

you're saying is that in an approximate way,

Jesus' birth also correspond or was derived

based on the solar calendar.

So in a sense, both, you know, maybe for

different pathways through the reasoning, both

Jesus and Sol Invictus' birthday originate or was

derived from the solar calendar.

Yes.

Yes.

Actually, yes.

So you can make an argument that the birth of

Sol Invictus has to do with the solar calendar

and when the vernal equinox happened.

There are similar considerations going on with

Jesus, but they're not saying, well, we want

the day that Sol Invictus has.

They're saying, hey, God created the heavens

and the earth, and we think Jesus was conceived

on the vernal equinox, therefore he's going to

be.

So that's, so yes, there's a parallel, parallel

reasonings going on.

They're both looking to the, to the sun and the

moon to figure out when to put things.

But the Bible does that too.

And we're supposed to, the Bible says God created

the sun and the moon to mark times and it's

created by God.

And so we're comfortable using the moon and sun to

mark our calendars.

This is also, by the way, Hippolytus is following

the Roman calendar here.

You guys may have picked up that December 25th is not

actually the winter solstice.

The Romans thought it was, but it's not.

It's actually a few days earlier.

Well, Clement, the Egyptians had a better calendar.

So their winter solstice is more accurate,

astronomically speaking.

So his, his date of Jesus's birth is a little bit

different, but it's because he's following a

different calendar where his winter solstice and

vernal equinox were on different, were on

different days.

Although his were a little more accurate.

So I still want to ask a question though.

When was Jesus actually born?

So we've talked about when, when Hippolytus thought

Jesus was born and when some other people thought

Jesus was born, but when was he actually born?

And it would be really nice if the Bible just told us,

right?

If Luke just came out or Matthew just came out and

just said, Oh yeah, it was, it was this day, but

they don't.

Or do they?

Well, let's go to the gospel of Luke.

Maybe he's hidden something in there that we can use.

If we go to the gospel of Luke, why did my, my

PowerPoint just, just went.

Okay.

There it is.

I don't know what was happening there.

So we go to the gospel of Luke and he tells us something.

He says in Luke chapter one, 13 through 17, he says that

an angel tells Zechariah that Elizabeth is going to

conceive a son.

Okay.

Remember that it's going to be important.

This is going to be John the Baptist, right?

John the Baptist is going to be, he, he receives this

message while he's in the temple doing temple service.

He's a priest.

And the angel says, your wife's going to conceive a

son.

Then I'm not sure why there's these delays going on here.

So then Luke goes on.

He says that Mary, the angel Gabriel appears to Mary six

months after Elizabeth had conceived John the Baptist.

And he's very clear on that.

He says six months.

So that means that Jesus is, therefore we can assume that

Mary gives birth to Jesus six months after Elizabeth gives

birth to John the Baptist.

In other words, Jesus is six months older than John or younger

than John the Baptist, right?

There's a six months difference.

So if we can figure out when John the Baptist was born or when

he was conceived, maybe we can figure out when Jesus was

born, right?

So there's another piece of evidence.

Luke says that Zechariah was a priest and that he was in the

priestly course of Abijah.

Every priest was put in various courses and they would have their

two week rotation in the temple.

Your two weeks would come up.

You'd get called to do your temple service.

Two weeks come up.

You could call to do temple service.

And it was very regimented.

So if we can figure out when the course of Abijah was serving in

the temple, hey, maybe we can figure out when Jesus was born.

I've got some scholarly friends of mine who are big believers in

this theory.

And they've written some articles on this.

And you can try and reconstruct when the course of Abijah was

happening.

And there are some people that claim that Abijah was in the

course of Abijah.

So the priests, including Zechariah, would have been in the temple in

mid to late September.

So I'm sorry, we're going to have to do the math again.

So that's when, if he's in there mid to late September, six months after that,

Jesus is conceived.

Well, six months after mid-September is mid-late March.

And then born nine months later is mid to late December.

Now, there are some people that maintain this.

I don't really buy it.

There's a lot of assumptions going into this.

So first of all, the number six, Luke does say six months, but it's like, you know, this

could be five and a half months, six and a half months.

He doesn't necessarily mean exactly six months.

And then even if he did, who's, I mean, we don't know if Jesus actually had a

perfect nine months gestational period.

There's nothing, I mean, he doesn't, maybe he was born nine and a half months later.

Maybe he was born eight months later.

And then we also don't know that this is when Elizabeth, where is my thing here?

That we're assuming that Elizabeth and conceived John the Baptist, you know, the day the angel

told this to Zechariah, but there's no indication of this.

It could have been months later.

We don't know.

And then this whole course of Abijah thing, you know, the reality is I, we just don't really

know when the course of Abijah would have been serving in the temple.

There's some speculation.

The problem is that we know that the high priests at this time were not always following

the law correctly.

We know that exceptions were made all the time.

Like we just don't know.

There's no, if we did have a document that, you know, literally said and was very clear,

I could believe it, but we don't have good documentation for this.

So in other words, I don't really buy it.

You guys are free to buy it.

Some people do.

That's fine.

I don't really buy it.

But traditionally, this is one of the ways people have tried to figure out when Jesus

was actually born is if we could figure out when this guy was in the temple and then we

have these other assumptions, then maybe we could figure it out.

So when was Jesus actually born?

Well, I don't know, but I have to say that if I was going to pick something, it is interesting

that Luke does say twice when he's referring to the birth of Jesus, he says, Mary treasured

up all these things, pondering them in her heart.

And I certainly got to believe that the angel Gabriel appearing to her and telling her that

she was going to be the mother of God's son would have been a pretty big deal.

And she would have remembered that and would have remembered the date that that happened.

And it is interesting that of all the dates we've been talking about, the birth of Jesus,

the conception of Jesus, the thing that is rock solid in early Christian tradition, everybody

agrees that this happened on the Passover.

It's the earliest tradition we have, and it's also the most widespread and universal tradition.

And so that is probably what I would hang my hat on if I had to, is I'd be like, there's

just this really, really early tradition that's very universal that this happened on the Passover

and nine months after the Passover is around late December, early January.

That's when it is around.

So was Jesus born on December 25th?

There's a chance.

We'll find out one day.

All right, guys.

Thanks for sitting through some calendrical math and astronomical speculation.

If you guys have questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

Yeah, the first thing Callie said was, uh-oh, when I raised my hand.

So, Tom, this is so interesting, man.

As always, great job.

Love it.

As far as the birth of Jesus goes dating that, the only way I'd really look at this before

was through the star and through astronomical evidence.

And I read a book some time ago by a guy named Mike Molnar called The Star of Bethlehem.

And he talks about, walks you through very systematically, like what would the Magi have seen to cause them

to believe and understand that this amazing king was born, you know, in the ancient Near East.

And based off of that, that pretty much concludes that Jupiter would have been part of that and where everything was.

And that caused the date, I think it was around early April.

Now, do you have anything to say about data that comes from the astronomical side of this?

So, I have read that also.

I've read that also, that there were these astronomical considerations.

It's true that that's what the Magi were looking at.

Matthew talks about a star.

That word for star, though, could be a star, could be a planet, could be a comet,

could be any kind of meteorological phenomenon.

And the idea is that there is this aligning of planets and maybe a constellation, too.

I don't know.

Yeah, it was a constellation.

That was all aligned.

So, I remember, I'm not an astronomer.

So, I'm just like, okay, that sounds good.

I will say that biblically, though, it's very unclear when the Magi actually show up.

And so, we know that they see this star.

I think what the most interesting, and this is kind of speculative, but the most interesting

thing they're dealing with is they're not just seeing the star, but they're looking at,

they're from Babylon or Babylonia, the greater area, and that had a Jewish presence for hundreds

and hundreds of years.

And there's a prophecy in the Old Testament that a star will rise out of, is it Jacob or

Judah?

And that maybe they're thinking of that and they're seeing this, whatever it is they're

seeing.

And, but because we don't really know when they're seeing this alignment and what, or

even specifically what it is they're seeing, I just, I think it's hard to pinpoint an actual

day that, remember, we've got to be so specific.

If we want December 25th, we've got to land on a day.

And ancient astronomers sometimes were shockingly good, but other times they weren't good at

all.

Like, like this calendar of Hippolytus, part of the reason that we know when it was written

is because it's wrong.

Because it's actually only, it says, it says it was written in the year 222.

And when you run the numbers astronomically and you compare it to the lunar cycle, you

realize it's actually only accurate for a few years before and after 222 AD.

So we know we have double confirmation of when it was written.

So he was, Hippolytus was actually a pretty poor astronomer.

I'm assuming the Magi would have been better, but it just, even if we knew the constellation,

you'd still have to show that they were aware of it as well.

Because like I said, the Romans themselves couldn't get the solstice right.

They were a few days off from the solstice.

They knew it was there.

So I guess I'm still skeptical.

I remember reading this thing about Revelation and the woman closed with the sun and the

moon and 12 stars on her head.

And there's apparently this astronomical phenomenon where these constellations all align.

It's really fascinating.

And it might be true, maybe.

I don't know.

Oh, do you want to follow up?

I've got a kind of learning check real quick.

It sounds like the ideas for the December 25th date were around in 1st, 2nd century, 3rd

century, but popularized in 354, right?

When that calendar.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Really when it went popular?

That's a great question.

So the fundamental assumptions that led to the December 25th date are certainly around in

the 2nd century.

And we see them first explicitly in the early 3rd century.

We see some of the assumptions even as early as the 2nd century.

So in the 2nd century, we see traditions that Jesus was conceived on the Passover.

So that's already in the 100s.

And then in the early 200s, we see that Jesus was actually born on December 25th, but there's

a variety of traditions.

And then in the 3rd or the 4th century, the 300s, December 25th starts becoming more and

more popular.

But there's still alternative traditions, even then.

And it takes a while for things to settle down and get to December 25th universally.

Thank you.

Very interesting talk.

But I'm kind of looking at it from a different angle.

I mean, Christians were, when we initially started, Christians were pretty much, they're

the hunted kind of a group of people at that time.

Yeah.

And we know that from the Bible that, you know, Jesus' birth is sometime during the winter

months.

Not in the summer months, but in the winter months.

What do you think about the, you know, general, you know, assumption that maybe it was done

because it was a safe time to celebrate, you know, being a Christian, able to celebrate

at the same time and kind of mixing with the...

Oh, I see.

I see.

I see.

So the idea is that Christians are being persecuted.

And if they have this holiday where they're celebrating, then it might mark them as Christians

and they might suffer more persecution.

But if they celebrate when other people, other people following the Roman religion are celebrating,

then they won't stick out.

Exactly.

So that people will find...

And then through time, it becomes tradition.

Yeah.

And then through time, it becomes tradition.

It's possible.

It's definitely possible.

A lot of this is kind of speculation on our part.

But I will say that Hippolytus, the guy who wrote this calendar, this guy was as zealous

as you can possibly imagine and was more anti-pagan than you can really imagine.

To the point where in his commentary, he has this prayer where he's talking about Shadrach,

Meshach, and Abednego being thrown in the fiery furnace.

And he says, you know, this happens today where people are brought before tribunals and

they're tortured and they're put to death.

And he has this prayer where he says, Lord, please make me a witness like them.

And 15 years later, he was martyred.

He was executed for his faith.

So he does not seem like the kind of guy that would want to snuggle up with, you know,

under the penumbra of a pagan holiday.

He urges people, be open with your faith.

You know, be willing to make the good confession.

So at least with him, I don't think that probably would have happened.

My impression from other early Christian writers is they were a zealous bunch.

They probably would not have wanted to do that.

But it is possible.

I've actually, so I've presented one view of this whole astronomical view, but there are

other views like, and none of them are mutually exclusive.

Like someone could believe that and this at the same time.

And it just, it just all agrees.

There's another view in there's some early sermons where they talk about on December 25th,

they talk about the son of righteousness appears with healing in his wings.

And that could then get back to the whole winter solstice idea that Jesus is the son of righteousness.

He rises with healing in his wings like the solar sun.

And they're picking that day because of that.

There's another, there's another idea that, that it's like a very literal reading of Luke

where Luke says Jesus was about to be 30 years old.

And so they try and they say he must be literally 30 years old, like not a single day more or less.

And they try and do all these calculations on that.

So there's various views, but most of them come back to this, some kind of calendrical futzing about.

They believe something with the calendar.

In other words, none of them, they're not really saying we heard from tradition that Jesus was born on December 25th.

They're giving these other reasons to arrive at that date.

If that makes sense.

There may be one, one exception to that rule, but okay.

I don't mean to be a downer.

If you guys want to believe he was born on December 25th, that's great.

So that's totally fine.

I hope he was.

I joyfully celebrate his birth on December 25th.

So I'm excited about it.

Another question, Clay?

Understanding check again and walking away.

Is it more to do with the perfect nine months after the creation of the world or the perfect nine months after Mary gets the news at Passover?

So which one is kind of the more governing of the two?

Yes.

Great question.

Well, I think when it comes to Hippolytus, that he wasn't the greatest astronomer.

He wasn't the greatest mathematician either.

So he may not have sorted that out in his mind, that distinction, which you very perceptively pointed out.

And the reason why is because if you really look at this calendar and dig into it, you'll note that he says things like, for instance, he'll say, this is when the Exodus happened on note H.

And you can go find note H in the calendar.

But then he's got another statement where he says, well, this is when the Exodus happened according to Daniel.

And this is when the Passover of Joshua happened on note D.

But then you see this is when Joshua according to Daniel happened.

What's going on here is that Hippolytus has done his biblical chronology.

He's gone through the historical books of the Bible.

He's tried to find all these Passovers.

But then he had this peculiar view about Daniel and his prophecy.

And they were contradictory.

He couldn't make them match.

So he just laid down completely contradictory dates in his calendar just openly and just said these things apparently occurred twice.

Like there were there were two Exodus Passovers, even though there's only one.

Anyway, my point is that he did not mind living in contradiction.

And so that nine month issue of whether it was exactly nine months from creation or exactly nine months from conception,

I think he probably just would have been he probably didn't really sort it out.

Does that make sense?

Thank you.

There are others.

You see other people juggling with stuff where they'll say that, no, Jesus wasn't crucified on.

Because what they they try to do this perfect life balance where Jesus is crucified and conceived on the same day, the Passover.

But you'll see others saying, no, no, no, no, no.

He was conceived on the Passover, but he was resurrected on the vernal equinox.

And they start doing all this stuff for the vernal equinox and Passover going back and forth.

But they're always pivoting around that idea that he was conceived on the Passover.

That's the consistent idea.

Sometimes the Passover is on the vernal equinox.

Sometimes it's near it.

Sometimes he dies on the Passover and vernal equinox.

Sometimes he is resurrected on the vernal equinox.

It just depends on how they're doing their jiggering and then how they want to then fast forward nine months to find December or December 25th, January 2nd, January 7th, whatever date, whatever date they have in mind.

All right, guys.

Well, let's why don't I wrap up with just a word of prayer.

Father in heaven, we thank you that you have left your witnesses in the heavens to your glory with the sun and the moon.

Father, as the darkness is growing in this season, I pray that we would remember the birth of your son.

Father, we read in scripture that he is the day spring who will arise and shine on the darkness of our souls.

And we ask that, Lord, you would forgive us of our sins and that as we remember his birth, that we would love others.

We would humbly serve them.

We would declare your gospel, God, that we would rejoice at salvation that has been given to us so freely and so perfectly.

And we pray this in the mighty name of Jesus.

Amen.