Faith & Mental Health 4

open up in prayer.

Do you want to open us up in prayer? Sure.

Lord Jesus, we are

thankful for this Sunday.

We thank you for gathering us together

and we pray that this time

would be one that shows us how

we can walk with one another, bear with

one another in

truth and in grace, Lord. Teach

us how we can reflect Christ to one

another. We thank you for

the ways you have knit us together as a body

and we pray that this time would

be filled with encouragement. In Jesus' name

we pray. Amen.

Amen. Alright, welcome to our final

faith and mental health

class.

On Memorial Day weekend.

So this will be

our last class on this

topic for now. Maybe we'll have a part

to

at some point in the future, but we're super glad you all

are here. Today we're going to

be specifically talking about how

can those of us in the church, how can we

as a church support people who are

struggling with mental illness?

And we think the church actually

has, should be the place

where people who are struggling and

suffering ideally would come.

And we want to figure out how is we, how can we

as a church really facilitate being

that place as Christ has called us to be.

And just as a brief

recap, because I know it's, we took a break

last week. So the first week we were talking

about what are the causes of mental

illness? Is it due to sin

or personal weakness versus

kind of our understanding of biological,

genetic, psychological, and

social factors? The second

week we talked about, you know, can

Christians have mental illness and what in

the Christian culture can get in the way

of accepting the

struggle with mental illness? And then

week three was, okay, if you believe that

Christians can have mental illness,

how does a Christian go around navigating,

getting treatment?

And so

this week we're circling back to something

that we had talked about a couple

weeks ago, which is a new vision

of what church can

look like.

And so we've kind of broken up our

session today into four,

three to four different areas.

So one would be nuanced understandings.

The second would be vulnerability.

The third, and we'll probably end on this,

is grace and humility and bearing with

each other. And the fourth,

which is more of like a culture

church thing,

would be around lament and celebration.

But we'll spend the majority of our time

on the first three.

And so for each of these, we'll talk about

what is it, what gets in the way,

and the factors that promote it.

Two, three.

Oh my goodness, sorry.

We are,

oh, thank you, thank you.

Oh, perfect, okay.

Could have been a good test of my memory.

All right, so

just to start us off with a quote,

I really like this book,

so just a quick book recommendation.

It's called Troubled Minds,

Mental Illness, and the Church's Mission.

It's written by a woman who is an author

and has worked in church ministry, I think,

and her mother has schizophrenia.

So she writes from kind of a objective perspective

and a personal perspective.

So I'm just going to read this quote.

The church can and should be at the forefront

of this move toward loving acceptance

and open support for those with mental illness.

In the words of the Apostle Paul,

God has put the body together

such that extra honor and care

are given to those parts that have less dignity.

This makes for harmony among the members

so that all the members care for each other.

If one part suffers, all parts suffer with it.

And if one part is honored, all the parts are glad.

So then she asks,

does this passage describe your church's approach

to those among you who have less dignity,

to those who are suffering?

So we want to start off by just putting this question

to all of you.

Thinking, I guess, about Trinity specifically

and about maybe we as a church,

sort of more broadly as a Christian church,

to what extent does this characterize

our approach to those who are suffering

with mental illness?

So to what extent do we,

are we at the forefront of loving acceptance

and open support of those with mental illness?

And maybe how are we or how aren't we?

And how do you see that?

No, it would seem to me

that the establishment of the care team

moves us much closer to that

where the burden is not so much on the staff.

Like how can we make it not just leadership

who's caring for those with mental illness,

but rather us as a church body

caring for one another.

Yeah?

Agreed.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

What do other people think?

And again, this could be,

again, our church specifically

or just churches that you have been in.

I'll say awareness,

like classes like this.

I didn't know that mental health professionals

were, you know,

attended Trinity.

And so I didn't know

there was any expertise to draw from there.

So awareness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's something like

making it a visible conversation topic.

Like, maybe it's a little hard to just

after church be like,

oh, I have depression.

Right.

But, I mean,

I mean, I do things like that,

but that's, you know,

sometimes socially awkward.

So, yeah.

Having like an organized format

where it's a little more visible.

Carefully consider

teaching and discussion,

not just,

again,

taking the burden off leadership

where we expect

that statistic about

pastors addressing mental illness,

what was it,

one-third of them

less than one time a year

or something like that.

And so,

there's reasons why

we,

our pastors can't

hit every issue

in front

that every person is facing

from the pulpit

each year

because

there's

as many individuals

as there are

there's as many

specific issues

they're going through.

Right.

So,

especially this verse

is helpful

to point out

that the diversity

of

the body's

functions

help

hold us together.

It's not just

the head's job

to do everything.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

That whole thing

of the head,

my pastor

in D.C.,

he would talk

very openly

about himself

being in counseling

in front of the pulpit

and to me

that was like

very refreshing.

Yeah,

just like,

I don't know,

I think he did a lot

to kind of

destigmatize it

and show like

just because

you're in counseling

like everyone needs

help sometimes

and it's not like

obviously we all

have,

and thank you

for the good

Godly man.

Mm-hmm.

So it wasn't like,

so I thought

that that was,

I don't know,

as far as like

the dignity

and I think

that went along

the way.

Yeah,

good segue

to our vulnerability

topic later.

Yeah,

Tyler.

I'd say truly

from when I got here

eight years ago,

I've always found

it in a place

where,

at least initially

where the teaching

gifts were really

valued among the body

and I think

you can go

too far

in that direction

where you value

those who are

articulate

and teach the Bible

and those are

all great things.

but I think

the recent years

I think by some

of the people

at Columbus House

who have come

into membership

and that type

here,

one person in

particular

who has a mental

illness

and,

you know,

she's very open

about it.

So I've seen

the teaching

maternity grow

in that regard.

It may have

valued or have

been open

before I got here

but that's just

the progression

of it.

Yeah.

And that's a great,

oh sorry Stephanie,

yeah.

Oh no,

I was just

going to say

like those

are,

it's also worth

asking like how

did we make

that shift?

Like how do we

become a church

that welcomes

people like that

and value gifts

from the pulpit

or elsewhere

like in ways

that leadership

may model?

Yeah.

In terms of

the broader

church in this

country,

I was really

amazed

that the book

had dementia

sold five or

six times more

than any of the

other books.

that is such

a critical

need.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Evangeline has

some things to

add clearly.

Yeah.

Specific to

Trinity

and things

that I've seen

and have been

my experience

is when

Sammy was

very young,

the people

within the

congregation

stepped up.

We had

two sleep

deprived

EEG,

which meant

everybody was

going to be

sleep deprived.

And we had

people from

Trinity

who signed

up to come

in,

play with

Sammy,

overnight,

so mom and

dad could get

some sleep

and actually be

awake for when

they needed to

be awake.

Right, right,

right.

And then we

had other

people who

would just

show up at

our doorstep

on Friday

night and

say,

you and

your husband

are going

out to

dinner and

a movie

tonight.

Goodbye,

we don't

want to see

you until

9 or 10

o'clock.

Sammy would

not have

things to

do.

That would

be Miss

Dorothy who

did that.

You fast

forward into

the youth

group years

where they

would go on

retreat and

I would have

to pack

bags of

special food

because Sammy

is gluten and

casein free.

And in

those days

that was

much bigger

of a deal

than it is

these days.

And Miss

Kirsten who

said,

you don't

have to

bring about

a thing,

you're not

doing anything

and I've

got one of

my daughters

who's going

to shadow

Sammy so

she's ready

to roll.

Well, those

were all

examples of

people within

this church

and believe

me, I

have talked,

I've done

many presentations

and talked

to other

churches about

how well

Trinity did

this without

there having

to be a

programmatic

example

within them.

They just

did it.

And that

was something

that was a

true blessing

and something

I think really

unique to

this body

of believers.

That's so

beautiful.

And I think

it really

illustrates well

over somebody's

lifetime what

different needs

may look like

and the different

people that can

step in and

be a team

and walk

alongside that.

Rather than

just mom

for that

paying attention.

And that

I really

found incredibly

helpful and

supportive.

And now that

she can give

back, which is

really wonderful,

I think it's

an exciting

piece to see

happen.

It's come full

circle.

That's wonderful.

Well, thank

you all for

sharing.

So I think

the first

section that

we wanted to

talk about in

this new

vision of what

a church can

look like

involves nuanced

understandings.

So just to

start out with,

there are a

couple of

Bible verses

that I wanted

to share.

So the first

one is

Ephesians 4.29.

Do not let

any unwholesome

talk come out

of your mouths,

but only what

is helpful for

building others

up according to

their needs,

that it may

benefit those

who listen.

And I think

sometimes when we

think about

speech that's

unwholesome,

we might think

about curse

words, or we

might think

about things

that are,

you know,

lies, or,

you know,

things that are

quote-unquote

unholy.

But I like

the juxtaposition

of unwholesome

versus, you

know, is this

helpful to those

who are hearing

it, right?

And so words

that may be

technically true

may not actually

benefit the person

who's listening.

And so just

thinking about

ways that

our words

can be

well-received.

And the other

is just from

Proverbs 12.18.

There is one

whose rash

words are like

sword thrusts,

but the tongue

of the wise

brings healing.

So again,

this emphasis

on how speech

can be used

for healing.

So the first

part of what

are nuanced

understandings

of mental

illness?

Yeah, so

this is kind

of a review

of week one

for those

of you who

are here.

So we just

want to keep

in mind,

importantly,

we don't

know what

is causing

another person's

mental illness.

To even have

any idea

of what that

might be would

have to be

in a really,

really close

relationship

with them,

probably over

a long period

of time.

So we just

want to be

really careful

about jumping

to conclusions,

especially

around making

attributions

of personal

sin or that

type of thing.

So if I meet

Stephanie and

Stephanie shares,

like maybe we've

known each other

a few weeks

at Trinity,

and Stephanie

shares like,

oh, I have

anxiety,

my first response

shouldn't,

ideally wouldn't

be, oh,

here's where,

you know,

maybe you're

failing spiritually

and that's why

you're having

anxiety, right?

Like we want

to keep in mind

that probably

if Stephanie's

dealing with

anxiety,

the factors

that are

contributing

to that are

very complex

and many

of them

might not

have to do

with her

own choices

and really

kind of only

in being in

a relationship

with somebody

over a long

period of time

and walking

with them

very closely

can we

maybe observe

or learn more

about maybe

what some

causes might be.

But honestly,

causes of mental

illness can be

somewhat of a

mystery,

even to

mental health

professionals or

to those who

are struggling

with mental

illness.

So just

keeping in

mind that

humility that

the things

that cause

mental illness

are multi-causal

and also

multi-maintained

as we've

talked about.

That doesn't

mean we have

nothing to

contribute or

no ideas or

no important

encouragement to

offer, but it

does just

important to have

a kind of a

stance of

humility.

And I think

nuanced

understandings is

basically at

its core,

like do we

understand what

this person is

going through?

Do we understand

their lived

experience and

have we

communicated that

to them,

that we are

understanding

them?

And then in

terms of what

gets in the

way of

nuanced

understandings?

Yeah, so

oftentimes this

idea, like it

is just

cognitively

easier to

kind of

categorize

things and

to use sort

of quick

heuristics to

inform our

understandings.

It's really

hard and

messy to sit

with complexity

or a sense

of like I

don't really

know, right?

Like so if

we have a

friend who's

struggling with

really severe

depression for

instance and

we want to

help and we

want to help

them get

better and we

want there to

be a solution,

it is just

cognitively easier

to be like,

oh it must be

because you're

not reading your

Bible enough,

right?

Like that's

just an easier

thing cognitively

to jump to

and it can

kind of save

us time,

right?

It feels like

it saves us

time of like

sitting in this

messiness and

something that we

don't know how

to deal with

or understand.

Oh I guess

one more

point too

and this will

come up a

little bit later

as we talk

about vulnerability.

I do think

there's something

about we

like we don't

want to suffer

with mental

illness, right?

Like I think

watching somebody

really struggle

mind, body,

and soul in a

way they can't

control can be

scary and I

think as humans

we oftentimes

want to

categorize,

that is them

and their

struggle and

we are somehow

exempt from that

or we're not

like them,

we're kind of

different,

we're not going

to struggle in

the same ways.

So I think

oftentimes we

might not use

nuanced

understandings

because it's

easier to

think, oh,

if it's

complex and

mysterious and

we're not sure

why they're

struggling,

then I

actually might

be vulnerable

to struggle

too.

I think that's

scary to admit

that we're

not different,

that we're

not exempt,

and so I

think sometimes

this fear

can kind of

keep us at

arm's length

from people

and kind of

like, oh,

they're not

very holy,

right?

Or they

kind of need

to pray

more and

we are doing

better with

our spiritual

life,

therefore we're

not going to

struggle in

the same ways.

So I think

that can kind

of be,

our fear can

keep us from

nuanced

understandings

too.

A third thing

we came up

with in terms

of what gets

in the way of

nuanced

understandings

included

busyness,

and I mean

we could talk

probably like

for an hour

on this,

but you know

just as a

culture,

right,

that we are

very task

oriented,

we're quantifying

things,

we're into

getting things

done,

and sometimes

the process

can get a

little bit

lost in that,

and sometimes

you know

we're just,

we're busy,

we're,

you know,

it's hard to,

it takes time

to walk with

someone who has

mental illness,

and so there

really has to be

kind of an

intentionality

around it,

because I think

by default our

lives can get

really crowded,

and then the

last one that

we came up

with was that

it's hard to

be empathetic

if we ourselves

haven't done

our own work,

and so you

know if somebody

is really

struggling,

and we minimize

it, we say oh

well it's not

that bad,

right,

like the chances

are good,

like that's

probably how

we're dealing

with ourselves

too,

that we've

kind of been

like spiritually

bypassing some

of our own

emotions,

and I think

it's important

just to realize

that we can

only offer

to people

what we've

been given,

what we've

been able to

work through

with the grace

of God

on ourselves,

and so we

can't really

expect ourselves

to be empathetic

towards other

people's struggles

if we haven't

been able to

receive that

sort of love

from other

people and

from the

Lord.

All right,

so, and

then we'll

have time for

discussion here

in a couple

minutes, but

what promotes

nuanced

understandings,

like it's

hard, it's

really messy,

somebody comes

to you with

psychosis or

anxiety,

depression,

PTSD, they're

really hurting,

you don't know

what to do,

right, like what

are we supposed

to do, like how

can we get to

these nuanced

understandings,

so we think

really the best

thing is just

to ask questions

and to be

curious and to

ask a lot

more questions

than giving

solutions or

advice, especially

up front, and

to really, like

Stephanie said,

really try to

understand what

is the person's

experience and

really what is

it like to be

them, kind of

what is it like

to live their

life, how does

it feel for them

every day, so

these are just

some practical

ways of doing

that, these are

active listening

skills which are

typically used by

therapists but are

also good for

every person for

pretty much every

situation, so

just asking

open-ended

questions, not

like, oh, are

you having a good

day, but like,

like, tell me

a leading

question, exactly,

right, but like,

tell me about your

last week, you

know, something like

that, requesting

clarification, being

attentive, summarizing

and paraphrasing can

feel a little awkward

to do, but it really

can help facilitate

somebody continuing

to share, so if

Stephanie tells me

like, oh, I'm

having such a hard

time, here's what's

going on, even just

saying something like,

oh, it sounds like

it's been a rough

week, you know, and

it's really interesting

how that kind of

summary or paraphrase

can open up

somebody to

continue sharing,

reflecting feelings,

like, sounds like

you're really sad and

you've been feeling

really down, and

asking probing

questions, like, oh,

and this is where I

think it's just that

entering more into the

complexity of

somebody's experience

without needing to

go in with, like,

here's the solution of

exactly what you

should do, but like,

oh, have you

struggled with

depression for a

long time, or when

did that start, or,

you know, just trying

to find out more

about the shape

and the, yeah, the

feeling of their

experience is really

helpful.

Yeah, I would say,

like, almost, like,

when in doubt, just

ask a question, like,

if you're not sure

what to say, it may,

it may be because

there isn't anything

to say yet, right,

that we haven't fully

understood what

they're going through,

and I think it's

interesting when we,

when we look in the

Bible, right, that

God asks questions

when Adam and Eve

have sinned, not that

mental illness is a

sin, but he asks,

you know, where are

you, right, and

that's a question, not

just of where are you

in location, but just

where are you

relationally to me,

and what, you know,

what have you done,

as well as, you know,

when Jesus heals

people, there, it's,

or he's interacting

with his disciples,

right, he's asking,

what do you want,

what are you seeking,

do you want to be

healed, and then

asking his disciples,

do you want to go

away as well, right,

and so I think

there's something

about asking

questions that puts

the, you know,

gives the other

person agency

versus trying to

say, oh, you know,

well, you should

eat better and

exercise better, and

then your depression

will get better,

but more, you know,

well, what helps or

what doesn't help is

what I'm saying

helpful or not,

right, and that can

feel kind of

threatening because

sometimes people might

say, like, no,

that's not helpful

at all, right, you

know, and, but that's

the choice, like, God

gives and Jesus gives

when he interacts

with people, he

doesn't just, like,

heal them

automatically, he

says, do you want

to be healed, right,

what is the choice

here, and so, you

know, if that's true

for God and Jesus,

like, how much more

is that, does that

need to be true for

us with our limited

understandings of

humans?

And I'd say it's not

that there's no room

for, of course, godly

counsel and

encouragement and

that kind of thing,

there is absolutely a

place for that, but I

think sometimes if we

are uncomfortable with

someone's experience,

the proportion of our

counsel to our

question asking can be,

like, 90 to 10,

whereas, like, especially

if we are not very

familiar with a person's

situation, probably,

like, 90% questions,

10% counsel would

probably be better.

So just to kind of,

like, be aware of the

ways in which if we are

unsure what to do or

say or feel scared or

uncomfortable, we tend to

offer counsel to kind of

distance ourselves versus

asking questions to enter

in and then only once we've

really entered in and

tried our best to

understand offering and

encouragement or a piece

of counsel.

And we'll get more in a

little bit to kind of what

the, what the church can

do.

A couple quotes here that

Stephanie had found that

was really.

Yeah.

So I really like this quote

from Bonhoeffer, which is

in his book about community,

life together.

So there is a, and this

just kind of says again,

like, you know, what is

active listening, right?

Um, so there is a kind of

listening with half an ear

that presumes already to

know what the other person

has to say.

It is an impatient,

inattentive listening that

despises the brother and is

only waiting for a chance to

speak and thus get rid of

the other person.

Christians have forgotten

that the ministry of

listening has been committed

to them by him who his is

himself, the great listener

and whose work they should

share.

We should listen with the

ears of God that we may

speak the word of God.

And then one more here.

I really like this quote

Stephanie found from

Charles Spurgeon.

So, ah, says one, I used

to laugh at Mrs.

So-and-so for being

nervous.

Now that I feel the

torture myself, I am sorry

that I was ever hard on

her.

Ah, says another, I used

to think of such and such

a person that he must be a

fool to always be in so

gloomy a state of mind.

But now I cannot help

sinking into the same

desponding frames.

And oh, I would to God

that I had been more kind

to him.

Yes, we should feel more

for the prisoner if we knew

more about his prison.

So I think that's, I don't

know if any of you have

ever been through the

experience where you kind

of judge someone for a

simple example.

Before I had a baby, when

people would be really,

really structured and

scheduled about like, oh,

we need to get baby home

on time to take a nap and

all these kinds of things.

I was like, a little

overkill, right?

And then after having a

baby, case in point, I'm

like, nap time.

She's got to be home.

You know, so like, if we

haven't really been through

something, it can be hard

to understand why somebody

is responding the way they

are.

And then sometimes if we,

once we go through that,

there's a moment of

realization of like, oh,

really that makes a lot

more sense.

Right.

Now that we're going

through this.

So just like to take some

time for comments,

questions about this idea

of nuanced understandings

and how active listening

can promote nuanced

understanding.

So yeah, any, any areas

that people want to share

experiences or ask any

questions about what we

talked about so far?

I just want to share, I

mean, mentally, this is

a lot of that, especially

post-COVID.

I mean, it's very

critical.

There's several things that

I think as a church group,

we can do quite a bit if

we kind of like, you know,

this is actually our first

step to talk about it.

But in terms of, we can do

quite a lot more as a

church group.

I think in terms of like

listening is very important,

I think, but this is only

once.

It's tough to listen when

we're in a church hall and

we need to go around.

And to listen to somebody,

you need to listen.

And it's not just five

minutes.

It's like sometimes, you

know, 15 minutes over a

month period.

And I think that's, and

that's tough.

So, fellowshiping, I think

is probably one of the

things that we can do as

a group to help each other

out, to talk, to listen,

and to do things together.

But the other thing, I

mean, this is just a

suggestion.

And I don't know how the

church leadership feels.

Like maybe just having, you

know, support groups, you

know, a regular support

groups or, you know, for

general stuff.

You know, people get

together and just talk.

And listen.

Talk and listen.

Yeah.

And maybe if you have

somebody who's maybe a

leader who, you know,

kind of like give spiritual

guidance and at the same

time, you know, give also

some, you know, non-spiritual,

which is that I think that,

I think, you know, God can do

a lot, but we'll be whole

when we're in heaven.

But we're not whole

here.

And sometimes we need, you

know, some other people to

kind of come in and kind of

make things better.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I want to look that up.

Not short version by

Dietrich von Hofer.

Okay.

Oh.

Yeah.

This is from Life

Together, which is Life

Together.

Is that the name of the

book?

Yes.

Yeah.

It's a book on, like,

Christian community.

Yeah.

Well, thanks so much for

your comment.

I think that's a great

point about, like, being

committed to listening more

than just one time, right?

Like, we're probably not

going to make a ton.

It's probably not going to

be a ton of difference if

after church once, you know,

Josh comes to me and says,

oh, it's been a, you know,

dealing with this.

And for five minutes, I've

been listening to him and I

never follow up.

Right.

That's probably not going to

be like, that might be fine,

but it's probably not going to

make a huge difference.

I mean, you make a great

point about, like, the

longevity of listening to,

which is really important.

Right.

Which I think speaks to just

how relationships need to be

structured in order to be

healing, that it requires a

frequency and intentionality,

and we'll talk about this

later, and then a regularity

to it for it to be a real

relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Alicia.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just to kind of go off of

that, I, so I've had

anxiety since I was very

young.

And I think because I was

so young, there was, like,

this sense of it being, like,

this weird mystical thing,

like, how could anyone figure

out what is going on with

this?

But I think that actually

kind of helped me understand

what I wanted from, like,

the people in my life,

because I was like, you

sleep people, you can't fix

this.

I just need you to, like,

be here with me.

So I think, yeah, like, it

can be intimidating for us

when we see someone really

suffering, being like, I

don't know how to help them.

And even maybe, like, the

listen, I mean, like, you

don't have the questions.

I feel like all of those

things can be very

intimidating.

But, like, for me, it was

just, like, I just need you

to, like, show up and be

there.

It's okay if you don't know

what to do.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Carolyn?

I don't know.

I think part of, half of

listening is being okay with

uncomfortable silences.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Especially in conversations

both when I have been

really struggling with my

mental health and when

talking, like, my brain

just works slower.

Mm-hmm.

And finding words is just

harder.

Mm-hmm.

So, even if I'm, like, in

the process of answering

your question, it might

take me two or three

minutes to get there.

Mm-hmm.

And I think it's something

I do when I'm, like,

listening.

It's just, like, really,

like, I think my initial

thing is, like, oh, I

asked the wrong question.

Mm-hmm.

All I'm getting is silence.

Yeah.

And so I want to make

that better.

So I qualify it or ask

another question or I say

something and just to,

like, sit in that silence.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's, like,

one of the biggest gifts

people have given me and

that we can give one

another is to sit in the

uncomfortableness and in

the silence and be, like,

I don't care if it left.

Mm-hmm.

I don't care if it takes

you 30 seconds or, like,

four minutes to come with

an answer.

I still care enough about

what that answer is.

Mm-hmm.

So.

Yeah.

I had a friend once tell

me, like, you know, the

best thing Job's friends

ever did was, like, sit in

silence for seven days or

ten, forty, I don't know,

however many days it was.

And then, like, as soon as

they opened their mouths,

things went down.

Right?

But there was, like, there

is a ministry to just,

like, sitting with someone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's a great point,

Alicia, too, about, like,

just somebody being present.

I think I've felt a similar

frustration with my OCD of,

like, well, it doesn't go

away.

Like, you know, sometimes I

think it's easier to minister

to other struggles.

Like, a physical illness,

maybe sometimes it doesn't

go away either, but there's

something easier about,

like, somebody's dealing

with something, we can

minister to them, it gets

better.

So often mental illness

isn't really like that,

and there's going to be

ebbing and flowing of

struggling over years,

right?

And so, like, a willingness

to continue to check in with

our friends and be present,

like, some months might be

good, some months might be

really bad, and that might

be always like that,

right?

Or that might be the

trajectory for a while,

and so to be willing to

kind of be entering in over

the long term.

Yeah.

Tyler?

Tyler?

I'm struck by Bonhoeffer's

last, the last line,

which is with the ears of

God, that we may speak the

word of God.

And I think one of the

roles that we as Christians

have with each other is

helping each other understand

our experiences in light of

God's reality.

It's not like denying the

fact that you don't have

anxiety, you're going to

ask for something.

It's the fact that, like,

yeah, that's true, but

let's look at what God has

said is true about himself,

and all these temptations

in the scriptures when we're

suffering, that God's

forgotten us, he's punishing

us for our sins, or, you

know, the blood has run

out, and we can just

affirm that, like, no, God's

steadfast love in Jesus

forever.

And I think of the

Psalms, what a great book

for the suffering, struggling

Christians, just to go through

the Psalms together and see,

yeah, it's Christians that

suffered with this, but look

how this Christian is still

relying on God's faithfulness.

I think we just help each

other understand that this is

something that Christians have

experienced, and it's okay to

experience it, but let's affirm

what God has said is true in his

word.

And I think that's a

bonhoeffer, I think he's kind of

getting out right there, where

they speak the word about.

Yeah, and reminding, I like,

how you have, like, reminding

people that God is entering in

to their experience, too, and

over the long term, and is

ever-present, and isn't going to

get tired of being present, even

if you struggle with anxiety for

years, right?

I think that's a really powerful

truth.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It reminds me, like, it's

fresh out, I'm sure I have, like,

nobody cares how much you know

until they know how much you

care.

Mm-hmm.

If you want to be a witness for

God and talk about his gospel,

they need to know that you're

enough to listen to God.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's probably the first step.

Right.

Is listening and learning and

understanding.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, again, with, like, the

relationship piece, people can't

receive what it, like, what you

have to say until they know that

they can trust you.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And it can make your word of, the

word of God you speak more

powerful if you're, if you're

entering into relationship with

them over the long term.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I think that will make more

meaningful and more powerful the

word of God that you speak to

them.

Yeah.

It's hard to express yourself and

talk to somebody if you feel like

they're half listening and they don't

really care to take the time or

effort to understand.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

It shuts down.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I think to move on to the

second section, and thank you all

for your feedback, it would be on

vulnerability as kind of another

necessary condition to be able to

walk with people well in mental

illness.

And I think somebody in, like, a

previous class had mentioned, you

know, when we go to church, we see

happy, shiny people, right?

And so, there's kind of that, like,

feeling of, like, well, what's wrong

with me that I'm not happy and

shiny?

And vulnerability goes a long way

towards being able to share in the

struggles that other people have

have.

So, in terms of what is it,

vulnerability is an invitation to

be fully known and fully loved by

one another.

And when we think about, you know,

what is needed to create life

literally, biologically, right, you

need to be vulnerable, you need to

be naked in order to create new life.

And in the same way, like, a

nakedness emotionally is needed to

be able to create new life within the

church.

It's a skill to be practiced, right?

So, it's not just something that

happens, but really trying to challenge

ourselves, you know, are we actually

being vulnerable with one another when

we share?

In terms of what gets in the way of

vulnerability, we have broken it up

into, you know, both what, for those

who are in the midst of struggling with

mental illness, what gets in the way of

being vulnerable.

vulnerable.

And we think about, you know,

sometimes, you know, hard events

happen, somebody shares that they're

struggling with depression, a suicide

happens, and everybody else says, oh, we

never knew that this person was

struggling, right?

And we'll circle back to that.

But then the other piece is also, you

know, what gets in the way of us who are

not currently struggling with mental

illness, being able to be vulnerable or

participate in that culture of

vulnerability.

In terms of, you know, when someone is

in the midst of currently struggling

with mental illness, I think the big two

are that there's a lot of shame around

it, which then leads to aloneness.

And I think shame as opposed to guilt is

this idea, not just that I've done

something bad, but I am bad.

I'm not enough.

And then that can lead us to hide our

struggles and to isolate a lot more,

which worsens the mental illness, but

it's also common to all mental

illness, right?

And so if you think about depression,

somebody's too depressed to get out of

bed, they can't join the body of

believers.

Somebody with eating disorders is like

counting their calories and can't

share in the life of food with the,

you know, which so much of our culture

is built around, right?

Because they're like doing their own

little thing that has to be, you

know, X calories and look a certain

way.

The same with like tics or compulsions,

right?

That people often kind of withdraw and

isolate because there is a lot of shame

around what that looks like.

Um, with anxieties and phobias, right?

Not being able to leave the house

because they're worried a panic attack

is going to happen.

And then there's not going to be

anybody around to help them.

So like, or even psychosis, right?

Which is you're worried.

You might be worried people are out to

get you, right?

It's hard to trust anybody.

There's a conspiracy against you.

Um, so all of these are just kind of

different aspects of how, even across

the spectrum of mental illness, there

are these kind of really core things

that further isolate people from the

life of the church.

Um, yeah.

Um, so for those of us who, I think

this can apply to both, but for those

of us who maybe are supporting people,

um, who are struggling with mental

illness, but don't have mental illness

ourselves, uh, there's a lot that kind

of make it hard for us to be vulnerable

to when, when we're in those places.

Um, and our vulnerability, even when

we're not specifically struggling with

mental illness can actually free up

people who are struggling with mental

illness to be vulnerable to.

So it's, we still play an important role

when we're in that place.

Um, so I think, yeah, sometimes we, we

want to protect ourselves.

We want to protect our image and

church, right?

I think sometimes there's a, there's a

sense of like, Oh, if I, if I revealed,

like I've had a terrible week and I

feel like I'm falling apart, even if

that's true, I think there can be an

implicit sense of like, well, people

think less of me.

Like, will I not be seen as, as godly?

Like, will people, yeah, kind of look

down on me?

I think that's a real, a real fear.

Um, busyness, like sometimes, you

know, we're rushing out of church, we're

rushing out of small group.

It takes time and intentionality to

sit down with someone and say, Hey, I'm

really, really anxious.

And I'm really struggling with just, it

takes time.

Um, I think also we can, um, uh, sort

of do transparency as opposed to

vulnerability.

So one time transparency was described

to me as like giving a lot of

information, but vulnerability is giving

information and giving an invitation, um,

to another person to enter into what

you're experiencing.

So, and this can kind of go along with,

um, spiritual bypassing, which we

talked about a couple of weeks ago.

So an example of this, um, so let's

say Stephanie and I are chatting at

small group.

Stephanie says, how are you?

And, you know, I'm having a rough week

with OCD and I say, Oh, you know, it's

been a rough week, but today is okay.

I know that God is faithful and he's

going to get me through it.

So I'm like, I'm feeling, you know, I'm

feeling better.

Right.

Like those things might all be true,

right?

Like I might've really had a rough week.

God really is faithful and it's going

to get me through it.

Today might really have been a better