Sermon

Doctrine of Creation

Trinity Baptist Church - Sermons

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  1. Alrighty, guys.

  2. It is 9 o'clock,

  3. so why don't we jump in

  4. !

  5. Lord, we ask that you would bless this time

  6. and help us all to grow closer to you.

  7. In Jesus' name, amen.

  8. Amen.

  9. Alright.

  10. Well, we're back again

  11. after a snow hiatus.

  12. And you may be wondering,

  13. why are we back again?

  14. Didn't we spend the entire last class

  15. talking about how everybody disagrees

  16. about what Genesis 1 says?

  17. Why are we even talking about it anymore, right?

  18. And if that's how you're feeling,

  19. I'd like to start the class

  20. by giving you a word of exhortation.

  21. And that is,

  22. if any interpretation we have of Scripture,

  23. anything that we advocate for,

  24. makes us feel like we can ignore Scripture

  25. or avoid it,

  26. or avoid wrestling with the text,

  27. then I submit to you that it must be wrong.

  28. If you're adopting an interpretation

  29. that says,

  30. I can just ignore this part of Scripture,

  31. I don't have to read it,

  32. I don't have to think about it,

  33. then I think you should reconsider.

  34. Because our interpretations

  35. shouldn't be licensed to dismiss God's Word.

  36. And ultimately,

  37. our job is to sit under the teaching of Scripture

  38. as a good audience,

  39. even if we're not sure

  40. of every aspect of the text,

  41. every part of it, right?

  42. And even if we all disagree

  43. about parts of the text,

  44. it doesn't mean we don't keep on coming back

  45. and trying to learn

  46. and trying to understand.

  47. So with that exhortation,

  48. why don't we start by reading

  49. the portion of our text

  50. that we're going to be considering today.

  51. Can somebody read for me?

  52. Yeah.

  53. Oh, here we are.

  54. You have your hand up.

  55. Can somebody read for me

  56. Genesis 1,

    Genesis 1:20–25

  57. verses 20 through 25?

  58. Yeah, yeah.

  59. I think that's page 1.

  60. 20 through 25.

  61. 20 through 25.

  62. And God said,

  63. let the waters bring forth abundantly

  64. as it was good as it was good as it was said.

  65. which the waters brought forth abundantly after their kind,

  66. and every winged fowl after his kind.

  67. And God saw that it was good.

  68. And God blessed them, saying,

  69. Be fruitful and multiply,

  70. fill the waters in the sea,

  71. and let fowl multiply in the earth.

  72. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

  73. Yep, through 25.

  74. And God said,

  75. Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind,

  76. cattle and creeping thing,

  77. and beasts of the earth after his kind.

  78. And it was so.

  79. And God made the beasts of the earth after his kind,

  80. and cattle after their kind,

  81. and everything that creepeth upon the earth after his kind.

  82. And God saw that it was good.

  83. All right.

  84. Does anyone see sort of a recurring pattern in these verses?

  85. After its kind.

  86. You guys see that?

  87. God made the sea creatures after their kind,

  88. and the birds after their kind,

  89. and the land creatures,

  90. and the swarming creatures after their kind.

  91. I find that,

  92. according to their kind repetition,

  93. really intriguing.

  94. What could these phrases be referring to?

  95. Well,

  96. I mean,

  97. the most obvious explanation of these

  98. is basically just the observation

  99. that

  100. lambs give birth to lambs,

  101. and grapevines produce grapevines,

  102. you know.

  103. So it's not really meant to be communicating to us

  104. what kinds are.

  105. just saying that,

  106. you know,

  107. like things give birth to like things.

  108. And that there's diversity.

  109. Yeah.

  110. It's kind.

  111. Right,

  112. exactly.

  113. I actually think,

  114. given that the original audience

  115. of Genesis 1

  116. were

  117. farmers,

  118. shepherds,

  119. people who are

  120. really super familiar with animal husbandry,

  121. this would be

  122. not really that

  123. groundbreaking

  124. if that was the only meaning.

  125. You know?

  126. I think most,

  127. these people were

  128. very familiar with the fact that

  129. lambs give birth to lambs,

  130. et cetera.

  131. So,

  132. I think it would kind of be doing

  133. injustice to the text

  134. to restrict it

  135. to merely that meaning.

  136. So,

  137. what additionally

  138. could it be referring to?

  139. Well,

  140. the word kind here

  141. means something like

  142. categories

  143. or varieties of things,

  144. indicating

  145. that the text

  146. is

  147. drawing on

  148. that

  149. there seems to be

  150. something behind

  151. our sort of

  152. our common sense observation

  153. that there are

  154. different ways

  155. of being.

  156. Hi,

  157. sorry,

  158. I'm like...

  159. No,

  160. don't worry about it.

  161. No,

  162. just the beginning.

  163. We're just talking about

  164. kinds,

  165. you know,

  166. according to their kinds

  167. in Genesis

  168. day five

  169. and day six.

  170. Yeah.

  171. So,

  172. there are

  173. different ways

  174. of being

  175. that we can

  176. justifiably

  177. group together

  178. and separate.

  179. Okay?

  180. Now,

  181. what do I mean by that?

  182. Well,

  183. apple trees

  184. seem to us

  185. to be different

  186. kinds of things

  187. than a lion,

  188. right?

  189. But we would still

  190. group together

  191. maple trees

  192. with the apple trees

  193. and we would group

  194. lions with tigers,

  195. right?

  196. There seems to be

  197. sort of these

  198. different ways

  199. of existing

  200. that we can

  201. just see with our eyes

  202. like,

  203. oh,

  204. that is like this.

  205. We put them together

  206. even though they're not

  207. identical.

  208. There's diversity

  209. among the kinds

  210. but there are

  211. different kinds

  212. of things,

  213. right?

  214. If anyone here

  215. is familiar

  216. with the works

  217. of Plato,

  218. this may be

  219. reminding you

  220. of his concept

  221. of the ideas

  222. and some

  223. have even noted

  224. that the,

  225. there's an interesting

  226. parallel

  227. between the Greek

  228. translation

  229. in the Septuagint

  230. of these passages

  231. that we just read

  232. and the works

  233. of Aristotle

  234. in Greek

  235. where he is

  236. attempting to

  237. describe what he

  238. believes are like

  239. the fixity

  240. of the forms,

  241. like how every

  242. individual species

  243. of thing

  244. is its own thing

  245. and it's,

  246. you know,

  247. it has to do

  248. with substance

  249. and accents

  250. if you're familiar

  251. with Greek

  252. metaphysics.

  253. And he's often

  254. in those passages

  255. in Aristotle,

  256. he's using

  257. a very similar

  258. kind of language

  259. to the Greek

  260. translation

  261. of these passages.

  262. But Aristotle

  263. is producing

  264. what I think

  265. could be accurately

  266. called like a

  267. scientific account

  268. of these different

  269. kinds

  270. and he's giving

  271. philosophical reasons

  272. for the separation

  273. of categories

  274. of things

  275. and categories

  276. of being.

  277. And I don't think

  278. that's actually

  279. what scripture

  280. is doing here

  281. but I think

  282. because scripture

  283. is not making

  284. philosophical arguments,

  285. it's not making

  286. a scientific argument

  287. here,

  288. it's distating

  289. a truth.

  290. But I think

  291. beyond all that

  292. there is

  293. definitely here

  294. an affirmation

  295. that there are

  296. different ways

  297. of being

  298. and there's

  299. variety among them.

  300. Okay?

  301. Different kinds

  302. of existence.

  303. So

  304. where

  305. do these

  306. ways of being

  307. or kinds

  308. come from?

  309. What was that?

  310. From God?

  311. Oh yeah,

  312. that was good.

  313. Yeah.

  314. From God himself.

  315. Right?

  316. Of course.

  317. Like all things

  318. they come from God.

  319. Right?

  320. We learn

  321. class one

  322. everything

  323. was created

  324. ex nihilo.

  325. There is

  326. God

  327. and everything

  328. that God created.

  329. And so if we're

  330. thinking about

  331. where did all this

  332. different ways of being,

  333. these kinds of existences,

  334. these different

  335. forms you might call them,

  336. where do they come from?

  337. Well they have to come

  338. from God.

  339. But let's consider this.

  340. When you and I

  341. are creative

  342. we tend to imagine

  343. that

  344. we're truly

  345. generating

  346. concepts

  347. and images

  348. from nothing.

  349. Right?

  350. We're like

  351. we're truly original.

  352. We just

  353. we create

  354. from the nothingness

  355. that is in our mind.

  356. Right?

  357. But actually

  358. any

  359. experienced artist

  360. will tell you that

  361. our creative activity

  362. is more of a blending.

  363. A blending

  364. or appropriating

  365. of the reality

  366. around us.

  367. Right?

  368. An artist

  369. first goes out

  370. and feeds

  371. their imagination

  372. with information

  373. from our senses

  374. and then

  375. they can go back

  376. and recombine

  377. and reimagine them

  378. as their own works.

  379. Right?

  380. Not to say that

  381. artists aren't creative

  382. only that they have to

  383. draw on existing reality

  384. and twist them

  385. and move them

  386. and form them

  387. into something new.

  388. Right?

  389. But they're not

  390. truly original.

  391. Actually

  392. J.R.R. Tolkien

  393. called this work

  394. sub-creation

  395. because none of us

  396. can say

  397. that we actually

  398. create proper.

  399. We're always

  400. whenever we do

  401. something creative

  402. we're always

  403. sub-creating

  404. drawing on

  405. the things

  406. that already exist.

  407. But if we think

  408. about this

  409. that can't actually

  410. be true of God.

  411. Right?

  412. There is nothing

  413. for God to go out

  414. and observe

  415. and feed his imagination

  416. like

  417. I think I'm going to create

  418. let me go out

  419. and see what's out there.

  420. You know?

  421. No.

  422. God doesn't have

  423. there is nothing

  424. outside of God

  425. to base his creation on.

  426. And some

  427. have attempted

  428. to say that

  429. God created

  430. based on his

  431. foreknowledge

  432. of what would be

  433. created

  434. much like

  435. some say

  436. that God

  437. elects people

  438. based on their

  439. free choice of him.

  440. Right?

  441. So if you're

  442. familiar with

  443. the doctrine of grace

  444. we talked about this

  445. a few weeks ago

  446. not a few weeks ago

  447. it was actually

  448. like a few months ago

  449. my goodness.

  450. Anyways

  451. the idea that

  452. oh

  453. someone chooses

  454. God

  455. in their life

  456. freely

  457. and God

  458. from time immemorial

  459. knows that

  460. and says

  461. therefore I'm going

  462. to elect this person

  463. because he chose me.

  464. Right?

  465. And so a similar

  466. sort of activity

  467. is thought to

  468. some people

  469. have thought

  470. well

  471. God has

  472. perfect foreknowledge

  473. so he knows

  474. what will be

  475. what will exist

  476. in creation

  477. and so he

  478. creates

  479. based on his

  480. foreknowledge

  481. of what will be

  482. existing.

  483. However

  484. Stephen Charnock

  485. makes short work

  486. of this view

  487. observing

  488. he made all

  489. things in wisdom

  490. how can this

  491. be imagined

  492. if the things

  493. known

  494. were the cause

  495. of his knowledge

  496. and so before

  497. his knowledge

  498. and therefore

  499. before his action

  500. God would not

  501. then be the first

  502. in the order

  503. of knowing agents

  504. because he would

  505. not act by knowledge

  506. but act before

  507. he knew

  508. and know

  509. after he acted.

  510. You see that

  511. it's kind of

  512. ridiculous.

  513. So God

  514. can't create

  515. based on his

  516. foreknowledge

  517. of what would

  518. exist.

  519. That creates

  520. a contradiction

  521. where the thing

  522. that exists

  523. exists before

  524. God creates it

  525. so he acts

  526. before he knows

  527. what he's creating

  528. and he knows

  529. what he did

  530. after he did it.

  531. Yeah.

  532. If you're confused

  533. everyone should be

  534. confused

  535. because it doesn't

  536. make any sense.

  537. So no

  538. our creator

  539. has made everything

  540. in keeping with

  541. what are called

  542. by theologians

  543. his divine ideas.

  544. These divine ideas

  545. are the patterns

  546. of all created

  547. things that exist

  548. in his mind.

  549. Now

  550. this is actually

  551. was developed

  552. in the early church

  553. as a critique

  554. of Platonism

  555. and Aristotelianism.

  556. So the idea was

  557. if you're familiar

  558. with Plato

  559. you know

  560. there are

  561. different kinds

  562. of trees

  563. right

  564. but they're all

  565. trees

  566. and there's

  567. this thing

  568. called

  569. tree-ness

  570. right

  571. there's this

  572. idea of the tree

  573. the ideal of the tree

  574. the form of the tree

  575. and this idea

  576. of the tree

  577. this tree-ness

  578. exists

  579. in this realm

  580. called the realm

  581. of the ideas

  582. and this is where

  583. all the concrete

  584. or abstract objects

  585. exist

  586. anyways

  587. in Christianity

  588. we believe

  589. that there is

  590. nothing else

  591. eternal

  592. outside of God

  593. right

  594. and so

  595. based on texts

  596. like here in Genesis

  597. and our common sense

  598. observation

  599. that there are

  600. there does seem

  601. to be something

  602. behind this kind

  603. idea

  604. or form idea

  605. the earliest Christians

  606. said no

  607. these are actually

  608. they're not in their

  609. own eternal realm

  610. of abstract objects

  611. they're in God

  612. these are God's ideas

  613. it's in God's mind

  614. right

  615. and they call these

  616. divine ideas

  617. now are these ideas

  618. pure inventions

  619. totally new

  620. based on nothing

  621. you know

  622. some would say

  623. that this must be true

  624. for God to be free

  625. in his creation

  626. that he had to have

  627. just like

  628. this

  629. right

  630. you know

  631. tree

  632. but

  633. most

  634. most theologians

  635. actually

  636. the majority

  637. of the church

  638. has actually

  639. viewed these

  640. divine ideas

  641. of creation

  642. that God

  643. created

  644. based these

  645. on himself

  646. that they are

  647. they are

  648. reflections

  649. of aspects

  650. of God's being

  651. because God

  652. himself

  653. is the fullness

  654. of being

  655. right

  656. this is the view

  657. that was pioneered

  658. by origin

  659. and Augustine

  660. and affirmed

  661. and modified

  662. throughout church

  663. history

  664. by John of Damascus

  665. Anselm

  666. Thomas Aquinas

  667. Francis Turretin

  668. and many

  669. many others

  670. however

  671. like a lot

  672. of things

  673. I like

  674. how Herman

  675. Bavink

  676. puts it

  677. in summary

  678. he says

  679. God's ideas

  680. are absolutely

  681. original

  682. they arise

  683. from his own

  684. being

  685. they are

  686. eternal

  687. and immutable

  688. indeed

  689. they are

  690. one with

  691. his own

  692. being

  693. the ideas

  694. in God

  695. are the very

  696. being of God

  697. in so far

  698. as this being

  699. is the pattern

  700. of created

  701. things

  702. and can be

  703. expressed

  704. and modeled

  705. in finite

  706. creatures

  707. every creature

  708. is a revelation

  709. of God

  710. and participates

  711. in God's

  712. being

  713. the nature

  714. of this

  715. participation

  716. is not

  717. such that

  718. creatures

  719. are modifications

  720. of the divine

  721. being

  722. or that they

  723. have in some

  724. realistic sense

  725. receive this

  726. divine being

  727. into themselves

  728. but every

  729. creature

  730. has its own

  731. distinct being

  732. because in

  733. its existence

  734. it is an

  735. exemplification

  736. of the divine

  737. being

  738. the wisdom

  739. of God

  740. is manifest

  741. in the creation

  742. ordering

  743. guidance

  744. and government

  745. of all things

  746. you guys

  747. catch that

  748. in

  749. in virtue

  750. of being

  751. an exemplification

  752. of God

  753. in some way

  754. all of creation

  755. can be truly

  756. said to be

  757. God's

  758. self-revelation

  759. that means

  760. that every time

  761. you walk outside

  762. and look

  763. at a piece

  764. of moss

  765. or a robin

  766. eating on the lawn

  767. or the mushrooms

  768. dotting a log

  769. you are in

  770. some sense

  771. receiving a

  772. revelation

  773. of God

  774. you're learning

  775. something about

  776. God

  777. he is telling

  778. you something

  779. about himself

  780. the oxaladdle

  781. the quivering

  782. aspen

  783. the secretive owl

  784. are all saying

  785. behold your maker

  786. how sad

  787. that we often

  788. walk by the

  789. outside world

  790. without appreciating

  791. the central

  792. aspect of it

  793. Raul you had

  794. your hand

  795. out

  796. even

  797. you pointed

  798. out

  799. the algae

  800. and nature

  801. but also

  802. the building

  803. of cities

  804. and civilizations

  805. and having

  806. governments

  807. that's all

  808. from God

  809. yeah

  810. all of that

  811. yeah

  812. I think

  813. and I'm not

  814. this is actually

  815. outside of my purview

  816. because

  817. I'm not

  818. I'm not going to be

  819. teaching the image

  820. of God

  821. class

  822. that's going to be

  823. Pastor Nick

  824. but I think

  825. you're right

  826. I think

  827. the works

  828. of human beings

  829. the work

  830. our art

  831. our architecture

  832. our organization

  833. our reasoning

  834. our science

  835. all that stuff

  836. is actually

  837. reflections of God

  838. through the medium

  839. of the human mind

  840. so the human mind

  841. is a reflection of God

  842. and therefore

  843. our works

  844. are therefore

  845. like secondary reflections

  846. of God's mind

  847. yeah

  848. exactly

  849. yeah

  850. Richard

  851. so

  852. clearly

  853. creation

  854. ex nihilo

  855. would exclude

  856. the notion

  857. that

  858. God

  859. creates

  860. everything

  861. out of

  862. himself

  863. but does it

  864. exclude

  865. the notion

  866. that God

  867. creates

  868. everything

  869. out of

  870. his ideas

  871. no

  872. no

  873. so the idea

  874. here is

  875. God

  876. as an analogy

  877. the analogy

  878. is

  879. before we

  880. make something

  881. we have an idea

  882. of it in our mind

  883. think of it like

  884. a blueprint

  885. right

  886. we have a blueprint

  887. of a building

  888. that we're going

  889. to make

  890. the blueprint

  891. isn't the building

  892. the blueprint

  893. is what the building

  894. is going to be

  895. right

  896. the form of it

  897. the idea of it

  898. in the same way

  899. God

  900. prior to his

  901. creation of the world

  902. has ideas

  903. of what

  904. he's going to create

  905. and what those

  906. ideas are

  907. what he ends up

  908. actualizing

  909. creating

  910. is based

  911. on himself

  912. right

  913. the ways in which

  914. he can be

  915. imitated

  916. in a finite mode

  917. right

  918. it's the finitude

  919. that is the

  920. important part here

  921. right

  922. none of us

  923. none of

  924. no part of creation

  925. is like

  926. this is the

  927. divine

  928. you know

  929. like

  930. it's

  931. no no no

  932. this is reflecting

  933. something about God

  934. it's not all of God

  935. does that make sense

  936. nothing finite

  937. can ever encompass

  938. all of God

  939. but

  940. does that make sense

  941. what we're getting

  942. out of there

  943. yeah

  944. so

  945. if

  946. all of creation

  947. is a self-revelation

  948. of God

  949. this kind of

  950. brings up a

  951. perplexing question

  952. what do we make

  953. of all those

  954. aspects of creation

  955. that make us

  956. wince

  957. that make us what

  958. wince

  959. you know

  960. make us

  961. kind of shudder

  962. what do we make

  963. of the seemingly

  964. long history

  965. of predation

  966. and death

  967. in the natural world

  968. including the extinction

  969. of all kinds of creatures

  970. like the majestic

  971. dinosaur

  972. and the funky

  973. trilobite

  974. ultimately

  975. we're asking

  976. the question

  977. how fallen

  978. is nature

  979. if creation

  980. is a self-revelation

  981. of God

  982. what are we

  983. reasonably expected

  984. to be able to learn

  985. from God

  986. from nature

  987. and how corrupted

  988. has it been

  989. by the fall

  990. one view

  991. is actually

  992. that the natural world

  993. has been

  994. comprehensively

  995. affected by the fall

  996. of man

  997. that every kind

  998. of natural evil

  999. as we might

  1000. understand it

  1001. is attributable

  1002. to humanity's

  1003. primal disobedience

  1004. this view

  1005. is often

  1006. a distinguishing mark

  1007. of young earth

  1008. creationism

  1009. postulating that

  1010. predation

  1011. and animal death

  1012. per se

  1013. are results

  1014. of the fall

  1015. of man

  1016. and therefore

  1017. cannot predate

  1018. humanity

  1019. since the publication

  1020. of the Genesis flood

  1021. in 1961

  1022. the history

  1023. of predation

  1024. and extinction

  1025. as seen in the fossils

  1026. is actually explained

  1027. by a global flood

  1028. that produced

  1029. the world

  1030. as we know it today

  1031. but

  1032. this view

  1033. is actually

  1034. a little bit more

  1035. I mean

  1036. this general view

  1037. is more ancient

  1038. than that

  1039. it's

  1040. the view

  1041. that nature

  1042. has been severely

  1043. affected by the fall

  1044. is actually espoused

  1045. by John Calvin

  1046. he says

  1047. that fleas

  1048. caterpillars

  1049. and other

  1050. noxious insects

  1051. are penalties

  1052. of the fall

  1053. so the relevant

  1054. passages in scripture

  1055. that are often cited

  1056. are the descriptions

  1057. of animal diet

  1058. in Genesis 1

  1059. the curses

  1060. in Genesis 3

  1061. the prophecy

  1062. of Isaiah 11

    Isaiah 11:6–9

  1063. verses 6-9

  1064. and Paul's

  1065. discourse

  1066. in Romans 8

  1067. about creation

  1068. so let's go through

  1069. some of these

  1070. Genesis 1

  1071. 29-30

  1072. says

  1073. after the creation

  1074. of man and animals

  1075. and God said

  1076. behold

  1077. I have given you

  1078. every plant

  1079. yielding seed

  1080. that is on the face

  1081. of all the earth

  1082. and every tree

  1083. with seed in its fruit

  1084. you shall have them

  1085. for food

  1086. and to every beast

  1087. of the earth

  1088. and every bird

  1089. of the heavens

  1090. and everything

  1091. that creeps on the earth

  1092. everything that has

  1093. the breath of life

  1094. I have given

  1095. every green plant

  1096. for food

  1097. and it was so

  1098. this seems like

  1099. a pretty clear

  1100. prohibition

  1101. on carnivorous activity

  1102. prior to the fall

  1103. and it's only enhanced

  1104. by the prophecies

  1105. found in Isaiah 11

  1106. 6-9

  1107. where he says

  1108. the wolf

  1109. shall dwell

  1110. with the lamb

  1111. and the leopard

  1112. shall lie down

  1113. with the young goat

  1114. and the calf

  1115. and the lion

  1116. and the fatted calf

  1117. together

  1118. and a little child

  1119. shall lead them

  1120. the cow

  1121. and the bear

  1122. shall graze

  1123. the young

  1124. shall lie down

  1125. together

  1126. and the lion

  1127. shall eat straw

  1128. like the ox

  1129. the nursing child

  1130. shall play

  1131. over the holes

  1132. of the cobra

  1133. and the weaned child

  1134. shall put his hand

  1135. on the adder's den

  1136. they shall not hurt

  1137. or destroy

  1138. in all my holy mountain

  1139. for the earth

  1140. shall be full

  1141. of the knowledge

  1142. of the Lord

  1143. as the waters

  1144. covers the sea

  1145. so here

  1146. the predatory animals

  1147. are seen to be

  1148. restored

  1149. in this view

  1150. to their prior

  1151. vegetarianism

  1152. in the new creation

  1153. showing that

  1154. predation

  1155. must have been

  1156. a result of the fall

  1157. and that nature

  1158. is in fact

  1159. currently cursed

  1160. Genesis 3

  1161. recounts

  1162. God's curse

  1163. on Adam

  1164. saying

  1165. because you have

  1166. listened to the voice

  1167. of your wife

  1168. and have eaten

  1169. of the tree

  1170. of which I commanded

  1171. you

  1172. you shall not

  1173. eat of it

  1174. curse is the ground

  1175. because of you

  1176. in pain

  1177. you shall eat of it

  1178. all the days

  1179. of your life

  1180. thorns and thistles

  1181. shall bring forth

  1182. for you

  1183. and you shall eat

  1184. the plants

  1185. of the field

  1186. by the sweat

  1187. of your face

  1188. you shall eat bread

  1189. till you return

  1190. to the ground

  1191. for out of it

  1192. you were taken

  1193. for you are dust

  1194. and to dust

  1195. you shall return

  1196. biologist

  1197. Dr. Gordon Wilson

  1198. one of the people

  1199. I think is

  1200. one of the best

  1201. proponents of this

  1202. view of a cursed nature

  1203. and

  1204. simultaneously

  1205. the creator

  1206. of an excellent

  1207. nature documentary

  1208. called

  1209. The Right and the Dance

  1210. if you're able

  1211. to watch it

  1212. you should watch it

  1213. it's great

  1214. I mean all nature

  1215. documentaries are awesome

  1216. but this is great

  1217. he comments

  1218. on that work

  1219. that documentary

  1220. that the curse

  1221. is manifest

  1222. when looking closely

  1223. at these elephant seals

  1224. in this case

  1225. the male domination

  1226. of the cows

  1227. the accidental crushing

  1228. of calves

  1229. and violent

  1230. territorial battles

  1231. between males

  1232. are on full display

  1233. this is a powerful

  1234. reminder that the creation

  1235. though impressive

  1236. is truly fallen

  1237. because of man's sin

  1238. right

  1239. he also

  1240. Dr. Wilson

  1241. also connects

  1242. this curse

  1243. to Paul's commentary

  1244. on the fallenness

  1245. of the world

  1246. in Romans 8

  1247. many of you

  1248. are probably familiar

  1249. with that

  1250. Paul says

  1251. for I consider

  1252. that the sufferings

  1253. of this present time

  1254. are not worth comparing

  1255. with the glory

  1256. that is to be revealed

  1257. to us

  1258. for the creation

  1259. waits with eager longing

  1260. for the revealing

  1261. of the sons of God

  1262. for the creation

  1263. was subjected

  1264. to futility

  1265. not willingly

  1266. but because of him

  1267. who subjected it

  1268. in hope

  1269. that the creation

  1270. itself

  1271. will be set free

  1272. from its bondage

  1273. to corruption

  1274. and obtain the freedom

  1275. of the glory

  1276. of the children of God

  1277. for we know

  1278. that the whole creation

  1279. has been groaning

  1280. together in the pains

  1281. of childbirth

  1282. until now

  1283. and not only the creation

  1284. but we ourselves

  1285. who have the first fruits

  1286. of the spirit

  1287. groan inwardly

  1288. as we wait eagerly

  1289. for adoption as sons

  1290. the redemption

  1291. of our bodies

  1292. for in this hope

  1293. we were saved

  1294. now hope

  1295. that is seen

  1296. is not hope

  1297. for what

  1298. who hopes

  1299. for what he sees

  1300. but if we hope

  1301. for what we do not see

  1302. we wait for it

  1303. with patience

  1304. Wilson

  1305. Dr. Wilson again

  1306. speaking of venomous snakes

  1307. observes that

  1308. the difference here

  1309. is that venomous snakes

  1310. curse condition

  1311. negatively impacts

  1312. human health

  1313. and welfare

  1314. especially in tropical countries

  1315. as we profiled

  1316. these deadly snakes

  1317. and our adversarial

  1318. relationship with them

  1319. throughout the world history

  1320. we wanted to highlight

  1321. the hope of the gospel

  1322. not only does God

  1323. reconcile man

  1324. to himself

  1325. through the life

  1326. death

  1327. burial

  1328. resurrection

  1329. and ascension

  1330. of Jesus Christ

  1331. but the whole creation

  1332. will be liberated

  1333. from its bondage

  1334. to corruption

  1335. quoting Romans 8

  1336. so

  1337. you can see

  1338. that altogether

  1339. this view

  1340. can support

  1341. the idea

  1342. of a creation

  1343. that is bound

  1344. in corruption

  1345. as exemplified

  1346. in predation

  1347. venomous animals

  1348. and animal death

  1349. generally

  1350. so this is one view

  1351. of how fallen

  1352. nature is

  1353. in contrast

  1354. another view

  1355. is that creation

  1356. as we have received it

  1357. is now

  1358. even now

  1359. still very good

  1360. as God declares

  1361. at the end of the creation account

  1362. they would say

  1363. that predation

  1364. animal death

  1365. even venomous animals

  1366. are a part

  1367. of this good creation

  1368. and that it is

  1369. the fallenness of men

  1370. that restricts us

  1371. from being able

  1372. to fully appreciate

  1373. the breadth

  1374. of God's works

  1375. among these proponents

  1376. would be

  1377. figures like

  1378. Augustine

  1379. Basil of Caesarea

  1380. Thomas Aquinas

  1381. William Paley

  1382. to name just a few

  1383. in fact

  1384. this is

  1385. if I had to

  1386. survey

  1387. church history

  1388. generally

  1389. this seems to be

  1390. the majority view

  1391. in the church

  1392. an excellent

  1393. modern proponent

  1394. of this view

  1395. would be

  1396. scientist

  1397. and Old Testament

  1398. scholar

  1399. Dr. C. John Collins

  1400. I'm a huge fan

  1401. love Dr. Collins

  1402. who in a chapter

  1403. in his book

  1404. Science and Faith

  1405. Friend or Foes

  1406. takes up this challenge

  1407. he points out

  1408. that when we look

  1409. at the supposed

  1410. prohibition

  1411. on predation

  1412. in Genesis 1

  1413. that there is

  1414. a curious omission

  1415. from the list

  1416. of animals

  1417. who are meant

  1418. to eat vegetation

  1419. did you guys catch it?

  1420. let's see

  1421. verse 30 says

  1422. and to every beast

  1423. of the earth

  1424. and every bird

  1425. of the heavens

  1426. and everything

  1427. that creeps

  1428. on the earth

  1429. everything that

  1430. has the breath

  1431. of life

  1432. I have given

  1433. every green plant

  1434. for food

  1435. you guys notice

  1436. there's no mention

  1437. of aquatic life

  1438. there?

  1439. aquatic

  1440. there's no mention

  1441. of aquatic life

  1442. so

  1443. at the very least

  1444. if this is a prohibition

  1445. on predation

  1446. it doesn't seem

  1447. to be a blanket

  1448. prohibition

  1449. of predation

  1450. because

  1451. it does not

  1452. encompass

  1453. the

  1454. aquatic animals

  1455. many of which

  1456. as you may know

  1457. eat other things

  1458. and the

  1459. ancient people

  1460. would know that too

  1461. and further

  1462. he points out

  1463. that the prophecy

  1464. in Isaiah 11

  1465. showing the lion

  1466. eating straw

  1467. like an ox

  1468. is actually

  1469. sandwiched

  1470. between two sections

  1471. discussing the turning

  1472. of all the Gentile

  1473. nations to Jesus

  1474. suggesting

  1475. it actually

  1476. might be

  1477. more properly

  1478. understood

  1479. to be a poetic

  1480. representation

  1481. of the peace

  1482. between Jew

  1483. and Gentile

  1484. a result

  1485. that would be

  1486. just as startling

  1487. as lions

  1488. and lambs

  1489. laying peacefully

  1490. together

  1491. more importantly

  1492. he points

  1493. to those passages

  1494. in scripture

  1495. like Psalm 104

  1496. that seem

  1497. to glorify God

  1498. for the predation

  1499. of his creatures

  1500. we read here

  1501. verse 19

  1502. he made the moon

  1503. to mark the seasons

  1504. the sun knows

  1505. it's time for setting

  1506. you make darkness

  1507. and it is night

  1508. when all the beasts

  1509. of the forest

  1510. creep about

  1511. the young lions

  1512. roar for their prey

  1513. seeking their food

  1514. from God

  1515. when the sun rises

  1516. they steal away

  1517. and lie down

  1518. in their dens

  1519. man goes out

  1520. to his work

  1521. and his labor

  1522. until the evening

  1523. oh Lord

  1524. how manifold

  1525. are your works

  1526. in wisdom

  1527. have you made them all

  1528. the earth

  1529. is full

  1530. of your creatures

  1531. so proponents

  1532. of this

  1533. we would say

  1534. we surely

  1535. have to include

  1536. these passages

  1537. into our view

  1538. of creation as well

  1539. so how do we

  1540. balance those

  1541. and as far as

  1542. the curse

  1543. in Genesis 3

  1544. is concerned

  1545. he would argue

  1546. that Dr. Collins

  1547. would say

  1548. that these are

  1549. properly understood

  1550. to be judgments

  1551. on man alone

  1552. and that thorns

  1553. and thistles

  1554. are going to be

  1555. God's means

  1556. for punishing Adam

  1557. not that

  1558. they are now

  1559. going to exist

  1560. for the first time

  1561. at all

  1562. similarly

  1563. the corruption

  1564. in Romans 8

  1565. on this view

  1566. is better understood

  1567. to be a lament

  1568. of creation

  1569. for man

  1570. to finally

  1571. take up

  1572. their role

  1573. of vice-regent

  1574. for the flourishing

  1575. of all of creation

  1576. not for the

  1577. that nature

  1578. of predation

  1579. and animal death

  1580. but that mankind

  1581. would finally come

  1582. and lead creation

  1583. the way it was meant to

  1584. to Christians

  1585. like Collins

  1586. this would also

  1587. make sense

  1588. of our intuition

  1589. of the amazing glory

  1590. and beauty

  1591. of these created beings

  1592. you know

  1593. the intricacy

  1594. of the spider's web

  1595. the astonishing speed

  1596. of the barracuda

  1597. and the superb design

  1598. of the eagle's eyes

  1599. and claws

  1600. Augustine thought

  1601. the same of the insects

  1602. saying

  1603. all things after all

  1604. have in them

  1605. a certain worth

  1606. or grace of nature

  1607. each of its own kind

  1608. so that in these

  1609. minute creatures

  1610. there is even more

  1611. for us to wonder at

  1612. as we observe them

  1613. and so praise

  1614. the almighty craftsman

  1615. for them

  1616. more rapturously

  1617. than ever

  1618. if we pay close attention

  1619. we are more amazed

  1620. at the agile flight

  1621. of a fly

  1622. than at the stamina

  1623. of the sturdy mule

  1624. on the march

  1625. and the cooperative

  1626. labors of tiny ants

  1627. strike us

  1628. as far more wonderful

  1629. than the colossal loads

  1630. that can be carried

  1631. by camels

  1632. ultimately

  1633. the proponents

  1634. of this view

  1635. would say

  1636. that the parts

  1637. of creation

  1638. that we are

  1639. uncomfortable with

  1640. is a result

  1641. of our inability

  1642. to fully appreciate

  1643. the whole of creation

  1644. and see

  1645. just like

  1646. the dark spots

  1647. in a painting

  1648. the greater glory

  1649. that is produced

  1650. in the completed project

  1651. Augustine exhorts us

  1652. some things you see

  1653. abide by soaring

  1654. over the whole

  1655. rolling wheel

  1656. of time

  1657. in the widest range

  1658. of holiness

  1659. under God

  1660. while other things

  1661. do so according

  1662. to the limits

  1663. of their time

  1664. and thus it is

  1665. through things

  1666. giving way to

  1667. and taking the place

  1668. of one another

  1669. that a beautiful

  1670. tapestry

  1671. of the ages

  1672. is woven

  1673. they would say

  1674. just like

  1675. sore eyes

  1676. make the light

  1677. hateful to us

  1678. our fallen

  1679. attitudes

  1680. make us unable

  1681. to properly

  1682. appreciate

  1683. the temporal

  1684. beauty

  1685. of some aspects

  1686. of the world

  1687. and even

  1688. for those parts

  1689. that we can't

  1690. fully understand

  1691. their purpose

  1692. John Chrysostom

  1693. would say

  1694. from the creation

  1695. learn to admire

  1696. the Lord

  1697. and if any of

  1698. the things

  1699. which you see

  1700. exceed your

  1701. comprehension

  1702. and you're not

  1703. able to find

  1704. the reason

  1705. for its existence

  1706. then for this

  1707. reason

  1708. glorify the

  1709. creator

  1710. that the wisdom

  1711. of his works

  1712. surpasses your

  1713. own understanding

  1714. these views

  1715. were espoused

  1716. well before

  1717. the theory of

  1718. evolution

  1719. was proposed

  1720. so they can't

  1721. actually be

  1722. considered a

  1723. capitulation

  1724. to the current

  1725. scientific theory

  1726. but it has

  1727. not been lost

  1728. on modern

  1729. proponents of

  1730. this view

  1731. that it would

  1732. certainly make

  1733. acceptance of

  1734. some kind

  1735. of development

  1736. and creation

  1737. more plausible

  1738. given the

  1739. animal death

  1740. and predation

  1741. in the fossil

  1742. record that

  1743. seems to

  1744. predate humans

  1745. okay

  1746. so

  1747. are those

  1748. the only

  1749. options we

  1750. have left

  1751. to us

  1752. I have to

  1753. say

  1754. I lean

  1755. towards the

  1756. second view

  1757. with its

  1758. insistence

  1759. on the

  1760. goodness

  1761. of creation

  1762. here and

  1763. now

  1764. but I'm

  1765. still

  1766. not fully

  1767. satisfied

  1768. with the

  1769. arguments

  1770. against our

  1771. perception

  1772. of some

  1773. kind of

  1774. natural

  1775. evil

  1776. I feel

  1777. like the

  1778. virtues

  1779. of the

  1780. first

  1781. view

  1782. are that

  1783. it gels

  1784. with that

  1785. intuition

  1786. that we

  1787. have

  1788. that there

  1789. is

  1790. something

  1791. wrong

  1792. there's just

  1793. something

  1794. off

  1795. about

  1796. creation

  1797. something

  1798. that's just

  1799. not quite

  1800. right

  1801. still beautiful

  1802. but still

  1803. I don't know

  1804. it's hard to put

  1805. words on it

  1806. and I feel

  1807. like the

  1808. virtue of

  1809. the second

  1810. view

  1811. is that

  1812. it helps us

  1813. to appreciate

  1814. creation as

  1815. we have it

  1816. now

  1817. receive

  1818. the world

  1819. that we go

  1820. out right

  1821. now and

  1822. see

  1823. and appreciate

  1824. and glorify

  1825. God for it

  1826. there are

  1827. pros and

  1828. cons

  1829. to each

  1830. of them

  1831. I feel

  1832. like one

  1833. of the

  1834. cons

  1835. of the

  1836. first view

  1837. is it

  1838. does seem

  1839. to kind

  1840. of require

  1841. us

  1842. to posit

  1843. some kind

  1844. of like

  1845. post-creation

  1846. creation

  1847. right

  1848. so pre-fall

  1849. there wouldn't

  1850. be predators

  1851. or

  1852. you know

  1853. decomposers

  1854. or all these

  1855. different aspects

  1856. of creation

  1857. that seem

  1858. to be designed

  1859. to work

  1860. with animal

  1861. death

  1862. and

  1863. deal with

  1864. those issues

  1865. and so

  1866. I guess

  1867. in this view

  1868. the idea

  1869. would be

  1870. at the

  1871. cursing

  1872. of creation

  1873. you have

  1874. this moment

  1875. where there

  1876. are suddenly

  1877. lions who

  1878. have like

  1879. big teeth

  1880. now

  1881. and claws

  1882. and digestive

  1883. systems that

  1884. work on

  1885. eating animals

  1886. and you

  1887. know

  1888. venomous snakes

  1889. suddenly have

  1890. to get glands

  1891. that inject

  1892. venom

  1893. you see

  1894. what I'm

  1895. saying

  1896. there seems

  1897. to be

  1898. some sort

  1899. of

  1900. there would

  1901. have to

  1902. be

  1903. some sort

  1904. of like

  1905. second

  1906. creation

  1907. event

  1908. sort of

  1909. although we

  1910. don't really

  1911. see something

  1912. like that

  1913. in scripture

  1914. and again

  1915. I think

  1916. one of the

  1917. greatest

  1918. cons of

  1919. this second

  1920. view

  1921. is just

  1922. that

  1923. I feel

  1924. like it

  1925. asks us

  1926. to

  1927. pretend

  1928. like we

  1929. don't see

  1930. what we

  1931. see

  1932. you know

  1933. that we

  1934. don't

  1935. that when

  1936. we watch

  1937. the nature

  1938. documentary

  1939. we honestly

  1940. don't

  1941. root

  1942. for the

  1943. squirrel

  1944. right

  1945. that's being

  1946. chased by

  1947. the fox

  1948. we're like

  1949. get away

  1950. squirrel

  1951. go

  1952. what is

  1953. that

  1954. I don't

  1955. know

  1956. so

  1957. I say

  1958. surely

  1959. we have

  1960. modern

  1961. glasses

  1962. so we

  1963. have to

  1964. come at

  1965. this with

  1966. a little

  1967. bit of

  1968. humility

  1969. right

  1970. because

  1971. we

  1972. probably

  1973. have

  1974. modern

  1975. glasses

  1976. that make

  1977. us

  1978. more apt

  1979. to

  1980. anthropomorphize

  1981. animals

  1982. their

  1983. animals

  1984. the

  1985. suffering

  1986. and death

  1987. of animals

  1988. and

  1989. it could

  1990. be

  1991. let's

  1992. be honest

  1993. most

  1994. of us

  1995. are not

  1996. spending

  1997. tons

  1998. and tons

  1999. of time

  2000. connected

  2001. to nature

  2002. most of

  2003. us

  2004. if we

  2005. have

  2006. animals

  2007. and stuff

  2008. they're

  2009. pets

  2010. and

  2011. the

  2012. death

  2013. of a

  2014. pet

  2015. is a

  2016. huge

  2017. tragedy

  2018. and we

  2019. all

  2020. feel

  2021. pain

  2022. so

  2023. maybe

  2024. we

  2025. are

  2026. projecting

  2027. that

  2028. feeling

  2029. onto

  2030. nature

  2031. broadly

  2032. but

  2033. if

  2034. you

  2035. talk

  2036. to

  2037. a

  2038. farmer

  2039. they

  2040. probably

  2041. would

  2042. have

  2043. a

  2044. very

  2045. different

  2046. intuition

  2047. about

  2048. these

  2049. things

  2050. right

  2051. farmers

  2052. are hard

  2053. to find

  2054. you have

  2055. to find

  2056. a farm

  2057. first

  2058. no

  2059. but

  2060. at the

  2061. same

  2062. time

  2063. I don't

  2064. think

  2065. I can

  2066. really

  2067. ignore

  2068. my

  2069. sense

  2070. that

  2071. there

  2072. is

  2073. gratuitous

  2074. suffering

  2075. in the

  2076. animal

  2077. world

  2078. almost

  2079. like

  2080. something

  2081. has

  2082. attempted

  2083. to

  2084. mar

  2085. God's

  2086. good

  2087. creation

  2088. but

  2089. ultimately

  2090. failed

  2091. so

  2092. this

  2093. is

  2094. actually

  2095. a

  2096. minority

  2097. view

  2098. in the

  2099. church

  2100. however

  2101. there

  2102. are

  2103. a few

  2104. people

  2105. in our

  2106. history

  2107. that

  2108. have

  2109. affirmed

  2110. the

  2111. basic

  2112. goodness

  2113. of the

  2114. created

  2115. world

  2116. as we

  2117. receive

  2118. it

  2119. including

  2120. things

  2121. like

  2122. predation

  2123. and

  2124. animal

  2125. death

  2126. but

  2127. that

  2128. this

  2129. basic

  2130. reflection

  2131. of

  2132. God

  2133. has

  2134. been

  2135. disordered

  2136. post

  2137. fall

  2138. to

  2139. show

  2140. more

  2141. cruelty

  2142. fear

  2143. and

  2144. ferocity

  2145. so

  2146. in this

  2147. view

  2148. the

  2149. general

  2150. structure

  2151. of

  2152. creation

  2153. with

  2154. there

  2155. being

  2156. carnivores

  2157. and

  2158. producers

  2159. and

  2160. decomposers

  2161. this is

  2162. all part

  2163. of

  2164. God's

  2165. good

  2166. creation

  2167. but

  2168. there's

  2169. something

  2170. about

  2171. it

  2172. on

  2173. the

  2174. edges

  2175. that

  2176. has

  2177. been

  2178. corrupted

  2179. or

  2180. disordered

  2181. or

  2182. twinsed

  2183. by the

  2184. fall

  2185. proponents

  2186. of

  2187. this

  2188. view

  2189. would

  2190. include

  2191. Gregory

  2192. of

  2193. Nazianzus

  2194. John

  2195. of

  2196. Damascus

  2197. Ephraim

  2198. the

  2199. Syrian

  2200. Hugh

  2201. of

  2202. Saint

  2203. Victor

  2204. and

  2205. Bonaventure

  2206. in the

  2207. modern

  2208. period

  2209. people

  2210. like

  2211. John

  2212. Wesley

  2213. C.S.

  2214. Lewis

  2215. J.R.

  2216. Tolkien

  2217. Alvin

  2218. Plantinga

  2219. and

  2220. Gavin

  2221. Ortland

  2222. now

  2223. that's

  2224. not

  2225. a

  2226. among

  2227. others

  2228. list

  2229. that is

  2230. as far

  2231. as I

  2232. know

  2233. the

  2234. entire

  2235. list

  2236. so

  2237. when I

  2238. say

  2239. it's

  2240. a

  2241. minority

  2242. view

  2243. it

  2244. is

  2245. a

  2246. minority

  2247. view

  2248. okay

  2249. and

  2250. depending

  2251. on

  2252. which

  2253. one

  2254. of

  2255. these

  2256. figures

  2257. you're

  2258. looking

  2259. at

  2260. they

  2261. actually

  2262. might

  2263. fault

  2264. the

  2265. angelic

  2266. or

  2267. human

  2268. fall

  2269. with

  2270. this

  2271. disorder

  2272. that

  2273. we

  2274. see

  2275. and

  2276. but

  2277. I

  2278. will

  2279. remain

  2280. brief

  2281. here

  2282. because

  2283. honestly

  2284. this

  2285. view

  2286. is

  2287. basically

  2288. a

  2289. blending

  2290. of

  2291. the

  2292. intuitions

  2293. of

  2294. the

  2295. first

  2296. two

  2297. views

  2298. and

  2299. will

  2300. rely

  2301. on

  2302. their

  2303. arguments

  2304. at

  2305. different

  2306. places

  2307. so

  2308. a

  2309. proponent

  2310. of

  2311. this

  2312. view

  2313. might

  2314. say

  2315. I

  2316. agree

  2317. with

  2318. Dr.

  2319. Collins

  2320. that

  2321. Isaiah

  2322. 11

  2323. is

  2324. really

  2325. primarily

  2326. talking

  2327. about

  2328. the

  2329. relationship

  2330. of

  2331. Jew

  2332. and

  2333. Gentile

  2334. in

  2335. the

  2336. new

  2337. covenant

  2338. that

  2339. this

  2340. is

  2341. a

  2342. new

  2343. harmony

  2344. between

  2345. previously

  2346. warring

  2347. factions

  2348. but

  2349. they

  2350. also

  2351. might

  2352. say

  2353. but

  2354. I

  2355. don't

  2356. really

  2357. agree

  2358. with

  2359. Dr.

  2360. Collins

  2361. that

  2362. Genesis

  2363. 1

  2364. is

  2365. not

  2366. talking

  2367. about

  2368. prohibiting

  2369. predation

  2370. or

  2371. at least

  2372. something

  2373. about

  2374. the way

  2375. that

  2376. land

  2377. animals

  2378. work

  2379. is

  2380. different

  2381. now

  2382. than

  2383. it

  2384. used

  2385. to

  2386. be

  2387. you

  2388. know

  2389. so

  2390. it would

  2391. be

  2392. kind

  2393. of

  2394. pedantic

  2395. for me

  2396. to

  2397. go

  2398. and

  2399. say

  2400. here

  2401. are

  2402. all

  2403. the

  2404. possible

  2405. combinations

  2406. of

  2407. all

  2408. the

  2409. different

  2410. two

  2411. views

  2412. so

  2413. I'm

  2414. not

  2415. going

  2416. to

  2417. spend

  2418. time

  2419. doing

  2420. that

  2421. yeah

  2422. Richard

  2423. so

  2424. one of

  2425. the things

  2426. I've

  2427. learned

  2428. from

  2429. listening

  2430. to

  2431. Christian

  2432. teachers

  2433. and reading

  2434. my

  2435. Bible

  2436. is

  2437. that

  2438. we

  2439. hold

  2440. certain

  2441. truths

  2442. in

  2443. tension

  2444. with

  2445. each

  2446. other

  2447. and

  2448. really

  2449. Christians

  2450. have

  2451. gotten

  2452. really

  2453. good

  2454. at

  2455. doing

  2456. that

  2457. and

  2458. it's

  2459. a

  2460. shame

  2461. that

  2462. only

  2463. a

  2464. minority

  2465. that

  2466. you

  2467. speak

  2468. about

  2469. have

  2470. even

  2471. attempted

  2472. to

  2473. hold

  2474. these

  2475. ideas

  2476. in

  2477. tension

  2478. with

  2479. one

  2480. another

  2481. yeah

  2482. I

  2483. mean

  2484. it

  2485. could

  2486. be

  2487. maybe

  2488. a

  2489. better

  2490. way

  2491. of

  2492. saying

  2493. instead

  2494. of

  2495. saying

  2496. we

  2497. have

  2498. black

  2499. hats

  2500. over

  2501. here

  2502. white

  2503. hats

  2504. over

  2505. here

  2506. and

  2507. the

  2508. few

  2509. gray

  2510. hats

  2511. in

  2512. the

  2513. middle

  2514. it

  2515. might

  2516. actually

  2517. be

  2518. more

  2519. appropriate

  2520. to

  2521. think

  2522. of

  2523. it

  2524. as

  2525. a

  2526. spectrum

  2527. and

  2528. that

  2529. there

  2530. are

  2531. definable

  2532. groups

  2533. within

  2534. the

  2535. spectrum

  2536. but

  2537. each

  2538. of

  2539. these

  2540. different

  2541. views

  2542. probably

  2543. is

  2544. trying

  2545. to

  2546. get

  2547. at

  2548. that

  2549. tension

  2550. but

  2551. maybe

  2552. they

  2553. are

  2554. waiting

  2555. one

  2556. side

  2557. over

  2558. the

  2559. other

  2560. right

  2561. so

  2562. and

  2563. I'll

  2564. finish

  2565. up

  2566. by

  2567. I

  2568. don't

  2569. I

  2570. really

  2571. want

  2572. to

  2573. make

  2574. sure

  2575. I

  2576. make

  2577. clear

  2578. that

  2579. proponents

  2580. of the

  2581. first

  2582. view

  2583. don't

  2584. think

  2585. that you

  2586. should

  2587. hate

  2588. nature

  2589. proponents

  2590. of the

  2591. second

  2592. view

  2593. don't

  2594. believe

  2595. that

  2596. everything

  2597. is

  2598. perfectly

  2599. great

  2600. all the

  2601. time

  2602. and

  2603. that

  2604. you

  2605. should

  2606. just

  2607. you

  2608. know

  2609. life

  2610. is

  2611. awesome

  2612. and

  2613. that

  2614. human

  2615. sin

  2616. hasn't

  2617. affected

  2618. nature

  2619. in

  2620. any

  2621. way

  2622. right

  2623. but

  2624. they

  2625. would

  2626. lean

  2627. they

  2628. would

  2629. lean

  2630. in

  2631. their

  2632. perception

  2633. on

  2634. one

  2635. end

  2636. of

  2637. weighing

  2638. those

  2639. two

  2640. things

  2641. the

  2642. goodness

  2643. of

  2644. creation

  2645. and

  2646. the

  2647. fallenness

  2648. of

  2649. nature

  2650. and

  2651. this

  2652. middle

  2653. group

  2654. is

  2655. sort

  2656. of

  2657. those

  2658. people

  2659. who

  2660. are

  2661. like

  2662. I

  2663. kind

  2664. of

  2665. want

  2666. to

  2667. hold

  2668. them

  2669. together

  2670. really

  2671. tight

  2672. somehow

  2673. you

  2674. know

  2675. can

  2676. I

  2677. ask

  2678. you

  2679. a

  2680. question

  2681. about

  2682. Dr.

  2683. Collins

  2684. yeah

  2685. so

  2686. he

  2687. thinks

  2688. that

  2689. the

  2690. present

  2691. state

  2692. of

  2693. the

  2694. world

  2695. of

  2696. nature

  2697. okay

  2698. is

  2699. as

  2700. God

  2701. pronounced

  2702. it

  2703. very

  2704. good

  2705. yep

  2706. so

  2707. he

  2708. doesn't

  2709. think

  2710. that

  2711. it's

  2712. merely

  2713. good

  2714. no

  2715. he

  2716. thinks

  2717. it's

  2718. very

  2719. good

  2720. I

  2721. can't

  2722. go

  2723. that

  2724. far

  2725. yeah

  2726. yeah

  2727. and

  2728. that's

  2729. right

  2730. that's

  2731. the

  2732. that's

  2733. the

  2734. hard

  2735. part

  2736. it's

  2737. like

  2738. oh

  2739. how

  2740. do

  2741. we

  2742. how

  2743. do

  2744. we

  2745. deal

  2746. with

  2747. that

  2748. you

  2749. know

  2750. yeah

  2751. right

  2752. and

  2753. so

  2754. yeah

  2755. it's

  2756. it's

  2757. a

  2758. it's

  2759. a

  2760. hard

  2761. problem

  2762. now

  2763. for

  2764. this

  2765. third

  2766. view

  2767. the

  2768. sort

  2769. of

  2770. middle

  2771. view

  2772. Jared

  2773. Tolkien

  2774. seems

  2775. to be

  2776. trading

  2777. on

  2778. this

  2779. when

  2780. he

  2781. depicts

  2782. his

  2783. creation

  2784. account

  2785. in

  2786. the

  2787. Silmarillion

  2788. I

  2789. don't

  2790. know

  2791. if

  2792. any

  2793. of

  2794. you

  2795. !

  2796. you

  2797. the

  2798. creation

  2799. account

  2800. because

  2801. it was

  2802. the

  2803. very

  2804. first

  2805. page

  2806. and

  2807. it

  2808. was

  2809. I

  2810. think

  2811. it's

  2812. only

  2813. one

  2814. page

  2815. so

  2816. if

  2817. you

  2818. got

  2819. through

  2820. one

  2821. page

  2822. of

  2823. the

  2824. Silmarillion

  2825. you

  2826. read

  2827. this

  2828. part

  2829. but

  2830. basically

  2831. in

  2832. this

  2833. story

  2834. Iluvatar

  2835. who is

  2836. sort

  2837. of

  2838. the

  2839. god

  2840. figure

  2841. is

  2842. leading

  2843. the

  2844. god

  2845. like

  2846. Ainur

  2847. who are

  2848. kind

  2849. of

  2850. like

  2851. angels

  2852. in

  2853. this

  2854. song

  2855. of

  2856. creation

  2857. and

  2858. Melkor

  2859. who is

  2860. the

  2861. devil

  2862. figure

  2863. is

  2864. constantly

  2865. ringing

  2866. a

  2867. discordant

  2868. note

  2869. in

  2870. this

  2871. song

  2872. of

  2873. creation

  2874. but

  2875. Iluvatar

  2876. is

  2877. always

  2878. taking

  2879. that

  2880. discordant

  2881. note

  2882. and

  2883. harmonizing

  2884. it

  2885. and

  2886. bringing

  2887. it

  2888. back

  2889. into

  2890. the

  2891. story

  2892. and

  2893. harmonizing

  2894. it

  2895. and

  2896. this

  2897. sort

  2898. of

  2899. gets

  2900. kind

  2901. of

  2902. brings

  2903. an

  2904. imaginative

  2905. expression

  2906. of the

  2907. possibility

  2908. of

  2909. god's

  2910. self

  2911. revelation

  2912. in

  2913. nature

  2914. but

  2915. that

  2916. is

  2917. disordered

  2918. at the

  2919. margins

  2920. but

  2921. reworked

  2922. finally

  2923. into

  2924. the

  2925. whole

  2926. as

  2927. very

  2928. good

  2929. so

  2930. how do

  2931. we end

  2932. oh

  2933. go ahead

  2934. that is

  2935. you Matt

  2936. sorry

  2937. has

  2938. anybody

  2939. tried

  2940. to

  2941. look

  2942. at

  2943. these

  2944. issues

  2945. through

  2946. the

  2947. lens

  2948. of

  2949. the

  2950. garden

  2951. god

  2952. planted

  2953. and

  2954. a

  2955. man

  2956. ruling

  2957. first

  2958. in the

  2959. garden

  2960. and

  2961. then

  2962. with

  2963. the

  2964. worldwide

  2965. commission

  2966. of

  2967. Genesis

  2968. 1

  2969. to go

  2970. out

  2971. and have

  2972. to be

  2973. all the

  2974. world

  2975. yeah

  2976. a lot

  2977. of

  2978. times

  2979. people

  2980. who

  2981. take

  2982. the

  2983. second

  2984. view

  2985. actually

  2986. would

  2987. say

  2988. that

  2989. the

  2990. garden

  2991. of

  2992. Eden

  2993. was

  2994. sort

  2995. of

  2996. the

  2997. landing

  2998. zone

  2999. of

  3000. humanity's

  3001. rule

  3002. over

  3003. creation

  3004. vice

  3005. regency

  3006. over

  3007. creation

  3008. you could

  3009. say

  3010. and that

  3011. the

  3012. commission

  3013. was to

  3014. go out

  3015. and spread

  3016. the bliss

  3017. of Eden

  3018. across the

  3019. whole

  3020. world

  3021. and that

  3022. when

  3023. Adam and

  3024. Eve are

  3025. kicked out

  3026. of the

  3027. garden

  3028. you know

  3029. there are

  3030. no squatters

  3031. in the

  3032. garden

  3033. they are

  3034. now going

  3035. to encounter

  3036. thorns and

  3037. thistles for

  3038. the first

  3039. time

  3040. so it's

  3041. not that

  3042. they didn't

  3043. exist

  3044. but that

  3045. they

  3046. would

  3047. not have

  3048. experienced

  3049. them the

  3050. way they

  3051. would have

  3052. had they

  3053. been growing

  3054. Eden

  3055. out

  3056. as opposed

  3057. to being

  3058. kicked

  3059. out of

  3060. Eden

  3061. and working

  3062. with creation

  3063. in its

  3064. most

  3065. difficult

  3066. harsh

  3067. form

  3068. so that's

  3069. actually a

  3070. pretty common

  3071. view

  3072. among the

  3073. second

  3074. people

  3075. the first

  3076. people of the

  3077. first view

  3078. would say

  3079. that Eden

  3080. was the

  3081. entire

  3082. world

  3083. the entire

  3084. world

  3085. was a

  3086. garden

  3087. of Eden

  3088. usually

  3089. so how

  3090. do we

  3091. finish

  3092. how do we

  3093. conclude

  3094. well

  3095. as usual

  3096. for this

  3097. class

  3098. what's the

  3099. point of

  3100. this

  3101. class

  3102. the point

  3103. of this

  3104. class

  3105. is

  3106. to receive

  3107. creation

  3108. as a gift

  3109. from God

  3110. and to

  3111. glorify him

  3112. for it

  3113. okay

  3114. and so

  3115. no matter

  3116. which of

  3117. the views

  3118. you find

  3119. compelling

  3120. in light

  3121. of the

  3122. fact

  3123. that

  3124. creation

  3125. is God's

  3126. self-revelation

  3127. of his

  3128. being

  3129. from his

  3130. divine

  3131. ideas

  3132. we are

  3133. given

  3134. no warrant

  3135. !

  3136. to dismiss

  3137. the created

  3138. world

  3139. and scripture

  3140. gives us

  3141. a universal

  3142. example

  3143. of undiluted

  3144. praise to God

  3145. as creator

  3146. to that end

  3147. I will finish

  3148. our talk

  3149. today

  3150. with quotes

  3151. from proponents

  3152. of each

  3153. of the

  3154. different

  3155. views

  3156. addressed

  3157. above

  3158. on the

  3159. existing

  3160. majesty

  3161. of God's

  3162. handiwork

  3163. I actually

  3164. chose

  3165. Dr.

  3166. Wilson

  3167. as a

  3168. proponent

  3169. of the

  3170. first view

  3171. because

  3172. I just

  3173. love

  3174. his obvious

  3175. love

  3176. of the

  3177. created

  3178. world

  3179. as we

  3180. have it

  3181. now

  3182. he says

  3183. though

  3184. other

  3185. animals

  3186. too

  3187. have been

  3188. affected

  3189. by the

  3190. curse

  3191. in various

  3192. ways

  3193. their

  3194. evident

  3195. beauty

  3196. grace

  3197. symmetry

  3198. coordination

  3199. and complexity

  3200. are reminders

  3201. of a

  3202. glorious

  3203. creation

  3204. once

  3205. untainted

  3206. by the

  3207. curse

  3208. they

  3209. and even

  3210. the

  3211. gnarliest

  3212. creatures

  3213. reveal

  3214. the ingenious

  3215. artistry

  3216. and engineering

  3217. of our

  3218. creator

  3219. so that

  3220. everyone

  3221. is without

  3222. excuse

  3223. and

  3224. Basil of

  3225. Caesarea

  3226. for the

  3227. second view

  3228. can double

  3229. down on that

  3230. sentiment

  3231. he says

  3232. I want

  3233. creation

  3234. to penetrate

  3235. you

  3236. with so

  3237. much

  3238. admiration

  3239. that

  3240. everywhere

  3241. wherever

  3242. you may

  3243. be

  3244. the

  3245. least

  3246. plant

  3247. may

  3248. bring

  3249. to you

  3250. the

  3251. clear

  3252. remembrance

  3253. of the

  3254. creator

  3255. and

  3256. finally

  3257. John of

  3258. Damascus

  3259. explains

  3260. how

  3261. creation

  3262. points us

  3263. to God

  3264. he says

  3265. the whole

  3266. earth

  3267. is a

  3268. living

  3269. icon

  3270. of the

  3271. face

  3272. of

  3273. God

  3274. I

  3275. do

  3276. not

  3277. worship

  3278. matter

  3279. I

  3280. worship

  3281. the

  3282. creator

  3283. of

  3284. matter

  3285. who

  3286. became

  3287. matter

  3288. for

  3289. my

  3290. sake

  3291. who

  3292. willed

  3293. to

  3294. take

  3295. his

  3296. abode

  3297. in

  3298. matter

  3299. who

  3300. worked

  3301. out

  3302. my

  3303. salvation

  3304. through

  3305. matter

  3306. never

  3307. will

  3308. I

  3309. cease

  3310. honoring

  3311. the

  3312. matter

  3313. which

  3314. wrought

  3315. my

  3316. salvation

  3317. I

  3318. honor

  3319. it

  3320. but not

  3321. as

  3322. God

  3323. because

  3324. of

  3325. this

  3326. I

  3327. salute

  3328. all

  3329. remaining

  3330. matter

  3331. with

  3332. reverence

  3333. because

  3334. God

  3335. has

  3336. filled

  3337. it

  3338. with

  3339. his

  3340. grace

  3341. and

  3342. power

  3343. and

  3344. through

  3345. it

  3346. my

  3347. salvation

  3348. has

  3349. come

  3350. to

  3351. me

  3352. so

  3353. let me

  3354. finish

  3355. by reading

  3356. Psalm

  3357. 148

  3358. which I

  3359. think is

  3360. just

  3361. this is

  3362. giving us

  3363. an example

  3364. of how

  3365. we should

  3366. respond

  3367. to the

  3368. natural

  3369. world

  3370. praise

  3371. the Lord

  3372. praise the

  3373. Lord from

  3374. the heavens

  3375. praise him

  3376. in the

  3377. heights

  3378. praise him

  3379. all angels

  3380. praise him

  3381. all his

  3382. hosts

  3383. praise him

  3384. sun and

  3385. moon

  3386. praise him

  3387. all you

  3388. shining

  3389. stars

  3390. praise him

  3391. you highest

  3392. heavens and

  3393. you waters

  3394. above the

  3395. heavens

  3396. let them

  3397. praise the

  3398. name of

  3399. the

  3400. Lord

  3401. for he

  3402. commanded

  3403. and they

  3404. were

  3405. created

  3406. and he

  3407. established

  3408. them

  3409. forever

  3410. and ever

  3411. he gave

  3412. a decree

  3413. and it

  3414. shall not

  3415. pass away

  3416. praise the

  3417. Lord from

  3418. the earth

  3419. you great

  3420. sea creatures

  3421. and all

  3422. deeps

  3423. fire and

  3424. hail

  3425. snow and

  3426. mist

  3427. stormy

  3428. wind

  3429. fulfilling

  3430. his

  3431. word

  3432. mountains

  3433. and all

  3434. hills

  3435. fruit trees

  3436. and all

  3437. cedars

  3438. beasts

  3439. and all

  3440. livestock

  3441. creeping

  3442. things

  3443. and flying

  3444. birds

  3445. kings

  3446. of the

  3447. earth

  3448. and all

  3449. peoples

  3450. princes

  3451. and all

  3452. rulers

  3453. of the

  3454. earth

  3455. young

  3456. men

  3457. and maidens

  3458. together

  3459. old

  3460. men

  3461. and

  3462. children

  3463. let them

  3464. praise the

  3465. name of

  3466. the Lord

  3467. for his

  3468. name alone

  3469. is exalted

  3470. his majesty

  3471. is above

  3472. earth and

  3473. heaven

  3474. he has

  3475. raised up

  3476. a horn

  3477. for his

  3478. people

  3479. praise for

  3480. all his

  3481. saints

  3482. for the

  3483. people of

  3484. Israel

  3485. who are

  3486. near to

  3487. him

  3488. praise the

  3489. Lord

  3490. amen

  3491. all right

  3492. guys

  3493. that's it

  3494. that's all

  3495. I have

  3496. any

  3497. questions

  3498. we have

  3499. five minutes

  3500. for questions

  3501. if not

  3502. we have

  3503. five minutes

  3504. extra to go

  3505. downstairs and

  3506. get ready for

  3507. worship

  3508. thanks Ed

  3509. I can't

  3510. believe our

  3511. conversation

  3512. yesterday

  3513. I know

  3514. isn't that

  3515. crazy

  3516. yeah

  3517. it's just

  3518. on my

  3519. mind

  3520. yeah

  3521. and I

  3522. loved it

  3523. I think

  3524. I told

  3525. you hit

  3526. 100%

  3527. yeah

  3528. right

  3529. thanks

  3530. dad

  3531. yeah

  3532. right

  3533. right

  3534. right

  3535. yeah

  3536. exactly

  3537. yeah

  3538. good to

  3539. see you

  3540. sorry

  3541. neighbor

  3542. Tyler

  3543. yeah

  3544. exactly

  3545. yeah

  3546. very often

  3547. yeah

  3548. those are

  3549. the images

  3550. used to

  3551. describe

  3552. those nations

  3553. right

  3554. right

  3555. exactly

  3556. yeah

  3557. and the

  3558. snake

  3559. you know

  3560. the snake

  3561. of the west

  3562. right

  3563. exactly

  3564. yeah

  3565. exactly

  3566. yeah

  3567. so I'm

  3568. good

  3569. coming

  3570. out

  3571. of

  3572. fruition

  3573. I

  3574. really

  3575. like

  3576. like

  3577. you

  3578. like

  3579. you

  3580. you