Who is Jesus to me | Origin Series #06

Matt Edmundson: Welcome to this week's Crowd Church service.

We are a digital church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps

us live a more meaningful life.

We are a community, a space to explore the Christian faith and a place

where you can contribute and grow.

Our service, uh, will last about an hour and in a few seconds you'll

meet our hosts, uh, for our service, who will introduce today's talk.

After the talk, we will have a time of worship and reflection after which we

head into Conversation Street, where we look at your stories and questions

that you've posted in the comments.

Now, we want to invite you to connect with us here at Crowd Church, and we've got a

few ways in which you can do just that.

Firstly, you can engage with crowd from any device during our live

stream, and if you're up for.

Why not invite a few friends over and experience the service together?

You see, church is all about connecting with God and connecting with others.

And one of the easiest ways for you to do that is join one of our

midweek groups where we meet online together to catch up and discover

more about the amazingness of Christ.

You can also subscribe to our fairly new podcast called What's the Story,

Uh, where we deep dive into stories of faith and courage from everyday people.

More information about all of these things can be found on our website,

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If you are new to Crowd or new to the Christian faith and would like

to know what your next steps to take are why not head over to our website

crowd.church/next for more details.

And now the moment you've been waiting for is here.

Our Online Church Service starts right now.

Well, good afternoon and welcome to Crowd Church.

Crowd Online Church.

I am here with the very right Reverend s p j, and I dunno how many other initials

we can give you John, John Harding.

Great to have you with us, bro.

John Harding: It's great to be with you Matt.

And uh, the less initials the better in my opinion..

Yeah, it's good to see you and it's good to be here.

Love what you guys are doing and it is always a joy to take up.

So thank you for having me.

Matt Edmundson: Oh no, it's great.

It's great.

We've just, um, we've just been eating some of Zoe's muffins, haven't we?

So it's, it's not a bad way to start.

John Harding: Zoe's Fantastic.

So if Zoe does watch it back, I've gotta say they were excellent.

Matt Edmundson: Matt's put in the comments here.

Where's my pistachio?

I, I have no idea what that's about.

John Harding: Lasagna.

And I'm, um, I'm on it.

Matt, I'll, I'll, I'll give it a go with this next week or so.

I've got some time off for half term.

Yeah.

And that's you.

Low cook.

You see, you've gotta give it plenty of time.

Matt Edmundson: Ah, very good.

Well, if you are just joining us, we are not a cooking channel.

Uh, we are in fact an online church.

Uh, and as, as you did tend to do with church, uh, you tend to

talk about food an awful lot.

Uh, church tends to revolve around food.

So, uh, yeah, we are an online church.

Good to see you.

Good that you are here.

If you are, uh, up for it to say hi in the comments, if you're watching on the live,

we're on Facebook, we are on YouTube.

Uh, always nice to meet you in the comments.

I'll be in there throughout the service.

George is, uh, also in the comments.

He's moderating, um, uh, he's moderating for crowd.

So when it says that crowd church needs to try this, this

is in fact George saying that.

Uh, so, uh, yeah.

And there's Matt Crew in the comments, so if you there say hi, be great to see.

This week we have in fact, John, why don't you say who we've got this week.

John Harding: Well, we have got James Sloan, who is the CEO of Imagine If Trust,

uh, charity based in Liverpool that are doing incredible transformative impact

work, working with marginalized people, um, doing work as far as Congo, DRC.

Uh, James is the real deal, is part of the, uh, senior leadership team

at Frontline Church, a good friend.

And, um, we are gonna really, really be blessed by James's

thoughts as he shares today.

I know that for sure.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely James.

What a legend he is.

Uh, and then after James' talk, we're gonna have a time of worship where you

can sing along and if you don't know the words, they'll be on the screen.

You can sing along if you're able to do so.

Or just think about the words as they come along.

And then after that, John and I will be back for Conversation Street,

where we will talk through your questions, um, and comments, Uh, and

we will love it and we'll get into it.

I'm very, very much looking forward to Conversation Street, John,

cuz we always have a good time chatting about things I think.

John Harding: We certainly do lots to chat about.

And, um, do, try and keep your mic muted when you are doing the singing.

People might not realize Matt, um, base voice, but, um, you, you hear it

on this screen, but fortunately mute setting, it doesn't go out publicly.

So

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I've not, I've not made that slip up yet where I've left

my mic on, uh, whilst doing worship.

Uh, Dion's in the comments.

Dion.

Hey, how you doing?

I hope you are feeling at least a little bit better.

Dion had covid bless her.

Um, and so hopefully you're, you are recovering Dion.

Uh, Sarah's in the comments.

High Sarah?

Uh, high double I on the high.

So Hi . Yes.

Uh, go.

Great to see you in there.

I do keep saying hi in the comments.

It'd be great to see.

, Right.

So what we're gonna do now, uh, we will jump straight into James' talk, which,

uh, John so masterfully, uh, introduced.

Uh, and then we'll have the worship where I definitely will be muting my microphone.

And then we'll be back for Coronation Street at Coronation Street.

We're not gonna do Coronation Street, it's gonna be Conversation Street.

Just so you know, um, uh, . I dunno why I said Coronation Street.

That's really mental.

Okay, so here's the talk . We'll be back after this.

Oh, why is that button stop working every week?

Here we go.

Let's try it again.

James Sloan: Today we're continuing our journey through the series called Origin.

We're looking at the book of John, the last of the four gospels, and very much

unlike Matthew, Mark, and Luke, in the way it describes the life and events of Jesus.

So today we're in chapter seven.

And we see the identity of Jesus called into question.

And I wanna look at a couple of points of the chapter and see what

we can learn from it together, but not as an academic exercise.

You know, as Christians, we believe the Bible to be, to be God's word to us, Uh,

not just a text or a historic account.

In fact, Nicky Gumbel, uh, a well known, uh, pastor of a church in

London says, uh, the Bible is the only book who's author is always present

with you every time you read it.

So for me, every time I read the Bible, I look to reflect on what I feel God

might be saying to me through His word.

It helps me to grow my faith as I seek to, to share Jesus with those around me.

And this passage in John has loads that we can reflect on and learn

about in the person of Jesus.

So a Titled this short talk, who is Jesus to me?

For context, we pick up, uh, John's account as a debate.

Uh, rage is on about Jesus' testimony and his claims to be the son of God.

The people of Jerusalem.

Probably a small mob of devout Jews claim he cannot be the Christ

as they know where he's from.

This could be due to scriptures, um, from the Old Testament.

Um, in books like Malachi where it says that God's messenger will come suddenly

to the temple, it may have been a popular belief that Messiah would just appear

out of nowhere, almost as if he was waiting concealed, and someday were just

burst suddenly upon the world and no one would know where he had come from.

So let's look at Jesus' response to their accusations.

It says, Yes, you think you know me and where I'm from,

but that's not where I'm from.

My true origin is in the one who sent me.

And you don't know him at all.

I know that I come from him.

That's how I know him.

He sent me here.

That's the message translation of John 7:28.

John 7:28

They may have known Jesus came from Nazareth, but they didn't understand his

origin and his relationship to the Father.

If they knew God the Father, then they would know Christ

the Son as the two are one.

The crowd where perhaps confused about where the Messiah would come from, but

Jesus knew exactly where he came from.

His origin and his mission were from God.

I am from him and he sent me.

Now for me growing up, I heard a lot about Jesus and all the Bible stories,

but I didn't have any kind of sense of understanding what a relationship

with God looked or or even felt like.

It wasn't until later in life that I really felt the presence

of God and then all the stories and Bible verses made sense.

Cause it wasn't focused on following a religion, but living a life of faith.

Suddenly it felt like an adventure rather than a bunch of rules.

It was liberating.

It was life giving.

It was life shaping.

Recently I've been on a, on a parenting course, um, about raising

kids in, in church, and it talks about the difference between being

God smart and being God connected.

We can, we can teach our kids all the information from the Bible

and they can sing all the songs at church, but this doesn't mean

they'll feel connected to God.

It's a step of faith they had to take for themselves.

The crowds had seen and heard of his miracles, but they couldn't allow

themselves to believe that this carpenter from Nazareth was the Messiah, the one

they'd been waiting for, the one who could save them from Roman occupation,

and the one who could bring salvation.

They lacked faith.

Then it, it would appear in the passage that some time, um, passes

and then Jesus speaks on the last day of one of the Jewish feasts.

This would've gained serious attention as using the temple courts,

which was like, um, a busy area directly outside the temple itself.

Um, but also because it says that he stood up to speak.

Now, most teachers, rabbis, um, would've been, would've been sat down

when they taught from scriptures.

So in John verse 37, uh, John 7 37, Sorry.

It says, If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink.

He who believes in me, as the scripture said, out of his heart,

will flow rivers and living water.

But this, he spoke concerning the spirit whom those believing in him would receive

for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So, quick bit of religious context, the Feast of Tabernacles,

which lasted eight days.

All through the first seven days, water from this pool called the pool

of siloam, was carried in a, a golden pitcher and poured out the altar to

remind everyone of the water that God miraculously provided for a thirsty

Israelite people in the wilderness.

Jesus boldly called people to himself to drink and satisfy their deepest

thirst, their spiritual thirst.

This invitation was, was broad because it said if anyone from any

intelligent, race, gender, nationality, or political party, it's not limited.

However, the invitation was, was narrow because it said if anyone thirsts,

they must first see their need.

Thirst is not anything in itself.

It's a lack of something.

It's an emptiness, a crying need.

And Jesus is essentially saying to the crowd, there's no more

water at the temple, and in the rituals that you followed, I have

the water you're looking for.

To come to Jesus and to drink was essentially to put your faith in

him, to trust in, rely on and cling to Jesus for both time and eternity.

But Jesus didn't only speak of something coming into a person, but

something flowing out of them as well.

It was not only a, a blessing received, but, but a blessing

to others, a source of blessing.

And if you put your trust in Jesus and throwing him in your

life, in your heart, then life and abundance will flow out to others.

And this is where I find the joy of living as a Christian.

It's not a constant strive for self-improvement.

It's finding your place in God family and making your contribution

to serve those both with within, um, and outside of the church.

There's this passage I love in the book of Ezekiel, um, where it

talks about water flowing from the temple towards a, a dry desert land.

As it flows the water gets deeper and deeper, um, as it flows out towards

the sea and along the way you hear the, there are fresh fish in the water, the

fruit trees on its bank and everything it touches kind of springs into life.

And for me, that's a reminder of the potential of the church to bring life

into our communities as the people of God bless others through their

words and through their actions.

That's a church that I love and that I believe Jesus is coming back for.

Now after all these, um, accounts were given in John seven, we see

that there are a number of reactions and responses from the crowd.

Some say he was a prophet, some say he was the Christ, others

doubted and and wanted to kill him.

So what's your response to Jesus?

Have you put your trust in him?

Have you put your faith in him?

Are you God smart or God connected?

Maybe you're watching this and have never taken that step of faith as

it feels uncertain or or scary.

If that's the case, then I'd really encourage you to message a member

of the crowd team or reach out to your local church or me personally

since I made the decision to, to commit my life to following Jesus,

I've, I've never looked back.

It's given my life a sense of purpose.

It's given me a, a church family with whom I can journey through life with.

But it's also given me a sense of peace when the world is flipped upside down

like we've seen in previous years.

And it means I can trust in God, the one who never changes.

I'd love to share a little video with you, a lady called Anna.

Um, Anna came into our church building about eight years

ago, um, looking for help.

She was given food and connected with some volunteers from the church.

Uh, and fast forward to the present day, and she's now working with

the homeless, um, in Liverpool and leading a Polish church congregation.

You know, she, she encountered Jesus.

And since then, her life has been transformed and she's found her place

in, in a church family where she can serve and be a blessing to others,

just like we read in the passage today.

So I pray today that you would experience this living water of Jesus Christ in

your life and it would fill you to overflowing to bless those around you.

This is Anna's story.

Anna Dzugala: I was born in Poland when I spent 20 years of my life.

I moved to England and I met my partner.

Then when I was 20, I spent with him eight years, which were not

very healthy at most of the times.

I've got two children with him.

During to arguments and different lifestyle, we separated and

not very pleasant situation.

I didn't know where to look for support.

I've been given a voucher for food bank as I need some supplies

for me and the children, and I ended up in Frontline Church.

I walked through the door and I was greeted with the most kind smile

and a welcoming presence of Estelle.

Estelle spoken to me like nobody before about this fantastic and amazing

person who loves me no matter what I've done and what I've been through.

And she just told me that he wants me to be with him and that he will

give me everything I need and care for me and that his name is Jesus.

But the first nine months of social care help, we've been giving a place

in domestic violence refuge, which was very good, but we didn't have any

money as our claim didn't go through.

So we need the support.

It is very difficult to ask for food when you have nothing and to children,

it's a very humbling experience.

I didn't have to go through very painful roads because of people from frontline.

They just, they just got the money together, brought food now and

then treated me always with respect and dignity, and they always pray.

I had.

I had so many friends then, but the best feeling was that, that people pray for

me that there is this Jesus, this amazing person who looks after me and my children,

and that, that I don't have to be worried anymore because he will provide for every

single thing that I need, and he did that when I was on my own and children asleep.

I had nobody to turn into.

Then on one Sunday when I came in, I was just greeted with this big family in here.

Lots of people.

Nobody asked who I am, where I'm from.

They just accepted me how I am with my children, and they

just love me for who I was.

The community here allowed me to blossom, to feel good about myself, to put the

past behind me and learn new things about what is amazing God, that is our father.

I've managed to meet Ben with his community.

That is Bible heritage.

I've managed to explore even more about Bible and find out about Jesus

and live by what he wanted me to live by, and that's amazing to know that

she, for every single day, you blessed with a God present and you're doing

everything best to please him, and he's gonna be happy for you no matter what.

It was just the best thing I knew and I knew from that particular

moment that there is nothing else I can give to my children.

I'm not rich.

I won't have many things to give to them, but I can show them God.

I can introduce them to Jesus.

If they manage to build that connection with God, then my job is done.

I am.

I am ticked my, My parenting has been proven to be good.

Today I work in a Catholic school.

I work in a primary school where Jesus is celebrity.

He's celebrated every day with the prayer.

The children know who he is.

They can ask and speak freely about Jesus love to them and to others.

The Catholic school allowed me to meet other people, to speak to

other parents and use my talents to languages to translate and to just let

everybody know how much God loves them.

And it is amazing how just simple sentence make can make so

much difference in people life.

Just to know that you know what, I know it's difficult, but

there is Jesus and he loves you.

And that's put smile on people face.

Matt Edmundson: Okay.

Only in you Jesus.

I love that track by Greg and Martha.

I, And you have to play it loud I think, for it to to make sense really.

John Harding: Yeah.

Yeah.

I could hear you singing from the garden.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

But at least, it's on mute for everybody else.

I was double checking and rechecking and doing all that kind of

checking, but yes, so welcome back.

So James, thank you for doing that talk.

Anna, thank you for sharing your story.

Love Anna.

She is such an alleged, Anna's one of these people that when you

meet her, you can never forget her because she just has this.

aura of loveliness around her, doesn't she?

Uh, and absolutely.

She's just amazing.

Uh, just amazing.

So, um, thank you for sharing, uh, Dion's, put in the comments.

Uh, you also have to harmonize and sing hashtag Sing With the Angels.

Um, if you've just joined us, uh, John was maybe alluding to the fact

that when I sing it's, it's not very musical before we went to the, uh,

to the, to the talk, but that's okay.

That's okay.

So we're just carrying on that conversation

John Harding: Go from those to the Lord Matt.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Yeah.

And it is a noise, bro.

John Harding: And I completely agree with you because, I mean, I just

loved listening to James share and I loved listening to Anna Chshareer

because I, I know them, and they're explaining effectively the source

of their joy of their life that.

The difference that they make in people's lives.

They are great people to be around.

James is great fun to be around.

Anna just gives you a big hug and is making such a massive difference, uh, for,

uh, particularly Polish, Polish and other people, Liverpool, homeless people, and

they just really explain in some of the source of where that comes from in Jesus.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, they were, and they did a great job, eh, And um, I

and Anne is one of those people that I would love to dig into a story a

lot more than just like a few minutes.

Do you know what I mean?

And, um, we have this new podcast, Shameless plug.

We have this new podcast called What's the Story where we do

deep dive into people's stories.

We just launched one this week.

The latest one is with Malcolm, Trish Morgan, um, talking about higher heights

and deeper seas, which was a phenomenal, uh, conversation with those guys.

And in fact, they, they contacted me the next day.

They emailed me the next day saying, Oh, we've just been talking to somebody

in Boise, Idaho who got a, you know, they heard, heard the podcast amazing.

And they said, It's just great how the sort of the world

shrunk for them a little bit.

But yeah.

John Harding: And that's of course the name of Trish's book, which

is just out, I read it last week.

So encouraging.

Yeah.

It is just story after story of Trish and Malc's life and how

they've just taken a risk, said yes to God and a very, That's yeah.

Really encouraging book of it.

It's not, you don't read it and think, Wow, Trish is amazing, even

though they're amazing stories.

You read it thinking God is amazing.

Yeah.

And wants to lead us into an adventure.

So I, You can get it on Amazon um, I'd seen that recently.

It's really worth a good recommend for half term.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it is a very, very good book.

Can definitely check it out.

Check out the podcast if you're not subscribed to what's the story?

Do Check it out.

Uh, where you do hear people's stories about how Jesus has actually transformed

their lives, which is something I actually, John, you were talking

about this morning, um, you know, this sort, this transformation effect

of Christ that actually, um, we got a comment, uh, on YouTube from Gary.

I wanna say, um, I, I noticed the other day, uh, who, who it was basically

saying, you know, this, the whole Jesus thing was a big fairy tale and a big

myth, but how do you actually know?

And, um, I thought actually that tied in really well with what you were saying

this morning that actually, you know, because Jesus transformed you, right?

He, he just, that's what.

. John Harding: Totally.

That's the point, isn't it?

There are lots of people who may go to churches and be religious that

haven't had the encounter with Jesus.

Mm.

For sure.

But when you've encountered Jesus, it changes your life.

Mm-hmm.

, uh, and that's what we're all about.

And I know you've had that Matt.

I've had that that's what we were saying before about James, about

Anna and James did say that quote from Nicky Gumbel, God is present

with you when you read the Bible.

I am yet to find, um, somebody who's followed a fairy tale, whose life

has been radically transformed.

You know, it, it just doesn't happen.

There is a power in this.

Uh, and, and in this story that becomes a life transforming reality.

And so effectively we read ourselves into the story, um, and same way when you read

John's gospel, you see people encountering Jesus, having their lives transformed,

all sorts of different types of people.

And then you think, Well, could you do that for me Jesus?

And that simple invitation.

So yeah, that, that's, we are all about transformation.

Um, and that came across so well in talk, I thought.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Dionne's put in here in the comments, you know, when you've

met someone touched by Jesus.

Fact.

Uh, do you would you agree?

I mean, you just put it in the comments, but Yeah.

John Harding: Undoubtedly, and the point is it's not a off thing, is it?

No, that's the point.

And I mean, are invited to encounter Jesus again and again.

And I think it's in that place of encounter that we are

more and more transformed for those who want a theological

framework 2 Corinthians 3 18,19.

As we gaze at Jesus, as we look into his face, we are

transformed into his likeness.

That's how transformation takes place for Christians.

It's not religious rule keeping.

It's not, it, it's not about that.

It's about relationship.

And so, um, yeah, there are times over the years where you meet people who've walked

very closely with Jesus and are living in that place of encounter with Jesus.

And they radiate peace and they radiate joy.

And I think you said before about Anna, she radiates joy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she does sometimes I've gotta say, um, I like to pop into the Polish church or

into the Iranian church because you gotta have Pastor John and everyone's like.

Yeah.

And, um, and that's what we're about and such.

Sure.

We have up days and down days, don't we?

Mm.

And uh, that we, we have the whole spectrum of human emotion, but actually,

um, there is you, you know, when some one spends time with Jesus, uh,

because it, it radiates from them.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, you do.

Uh, and like John said, you know, it, uh, fact, it is, and I, I totally agree.

I to and I like you.

I love going to see the, the guys at the Polish church, you know, you spoke there,

I've spoke there, had such a great time, uh, with, with the group and just, they

all, that's just the thing about church.

So Miriam put here, um, that where's it gone?

I go to church to encounter Jesus and to love others.

That's what she wrote in the, in the comments.

And I think actually that's a very, I love the simplicity of that.

Why do you go to church?

Well, I go to church to encounter Jesus first and foremost, right?

To encounter God and I, and I know John, you wouldn't be sat where you are.

And I wouldn't be sat where I am doing what we're doing on a Sunday night

if that encounter had not been real.

John Harding: A hundred percent.

And so the metaphor, the picture that James used from John seven today to

give a reason for why he does his work with imagine if trust and, and

he could earn a, he is a bright guy.

Mm.

You know, um, masters in psychology from Liverpool University.

He could earn a lot more doing something else somewhere else.

You know?

Why is he doing what he's doing?

Why are we doing what we're doing?

Matt, you give a huge amount of voluntary time to run Crowd Church.

You know, you must be mad, but it's, the picture that used

is you drink living water.

Yeah.

Jesus is like living water.

And as you get into his presence and as you receive that and you come and

you're filled again and again, it's a bit like, I mean, I've got a glass here.

It's like you start filling that glass, at some point something will happen.

It'll start to overflow.

Mm.

It will start to pour out into the lives of others.

And, and that's very much, um, what I heard from what James and

Anna was saying, the reason why they're doing what they're doing.

I would want, I would hope people would know.

That's why I do what I'm doing.

It's because when you receive Jesus, when you're transformed by

him, it sort of overflows out into the life of others and refreshers

others and has an impact on others.

And again, put a whole bunch of people together like that.

We'd call that a church.

Yep.

And that uses sort of link in Ezekiel and that water flowing out

from the temple and bringing life and refreshing to all around them.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

That's the great thing, isn't it?

This, um, uh, about this, this whole Christian, one of the things

that James touched on was this scripture from, uh, from John.

Um, uh, you, you think, you know me, uh, was the statement that he read.

And I thought this was a really interesting thing.

So I quickly googled misconceptions about Jesus, common misconceptions

people have about Jesus.

Um, Before I go through what I've written down here, uh, what are some of

the common misconceptions that you come across inside the church and outside

the church that people have about Jesus?

John Harding: Yeah, good question.

I mean, it instantly makes me think of, um, that, um, that will feral

film where the, um, the of Ricky Bobby don't watch it, it's not

appropriate, but the like, like the saying grace around the dinner table.

And one of the kids goes, You know, I like to think Jesus is like

ninja and I like to think of Jesus.

One of 'em goes, Dear, dear, dear, little nine pounds, six sounds, baby Jesus.

So cute.

It's like, um, it's all well and good being like, Well, I think of Jesus like

this, or I think of Jesus like that.

I mean, let's look at the gospels and let's look at who Jesus really,

uh was and who he claimed to be.

And he is undoubtedly, consistently.

Um, uh, revealing that he is unique and God, but, um, that,

that's the point, isn't it?

Generally people are that there is no academic historical

doubt that Jesus existed.

Mm.

That is not the same for other religious leaders.

Um, historical religion founders, which we won't go into.

Uh, but there's no academic doubt that Jesus existed.

Um, so people wanna say, Well, Jesus was some sort of, um, rabbi

guru type of person, a teacher.

Um, some people might even say, um, a prophet.

Um, and really Jesus leaves no space for that.

And CS Lewis, the author of, uh, the Chronicles of Narnia wrote far more about,

um, Jesus and his life than anything else.

And I think he talks about madman, liar.

Lunatic.

Yeah.

They are your three options.

Either Jesus is the son of God.

Unique God in human form, or he is a mad man, a liar or a lunatic.

I think he says he unequivalent of someone who claims to be a poached

egg, I think is the exact quote.

Don't, don't quote me, you know, Jesus left.

Generally that is what people, they, Oh, you know, you know, we, we have

like the nice inoffensive baby Jesus.

We can cope with that cause we get Christmas presents or we like the

Jesus that says nice things like love your neighbor and, um, turn

the other cheek, Jesus, the guru.

But actually Jesus, in this passage that James read was polarizing

people you either humble yourself and that knowledge that he is Messiah.

James used that word, The Christ, the long awaited promised Savior God

in human form on earth to saver us.

You've gotta humble yourself.

You've gotta, you've gotta say, I might not be right.

I might not be king of my life.

Um, and, and that, that takes humility.

It takes revelation actually.

Yeah.

Um, you've, you've gotta do that.

Or people will write, write him off, but you can't write him off because

2000 years later, look at his impact.

Yeah.

In the world.

He's still changing lives.

He's still transforming people.

He's still doing everything.

He said that he said it would, You know, I just think Matthew 28, he

said that he would never leave you.

And I know for a fact, Matt, that you and I have experienced that.

Yeah.

When we received Jesus, we have known his presence with us.

And I'm sure the folks watching that know Jesus will have had a similar experience.

He's true to his promises.

Yes.

So, sorry for getting a little bit excited now.

No, you crack on.

my favorite topic.

Matt Edmundson: No, I think, I think it's totally true though.

I, I wrote down some stats here from Barna Research.

Right.

Which I know you've come across before.

Mm.

So 29% of people surveyed think that Jesus is a prophet.

Um, 22% feel like he's, uh, said that he was a myth or a fictional character.

Um, and this was, I mean, let's get, get onto that myth that's deepen because

obviously all the historical evidence that we've got, he wasn't a myth.

We actually know that he did come and live.

John Harding: Josephus Tacitus, for example.

The writing about Jesus outside of, outside of the Gospels is massive.

You can't get away from it.

Yeah.

You know, people, people writing historically to say, um, he, he was

a man who claimed to work miracles.

Do you know what I mean?

That sort of claims of God, um, that you can't get away from

the historical figure of Jesus.

Yeah.

There's more historical evidence for Jesus than Julius.

Matt Edmundson: That's one of my favorite quotes actually.

I think that was quite fun.

Um, and in fact, Jesus makes reference to Caesar.

So, uh, do you know what I mean?

, But it's, um, so yeah, you got 22% think he's a myth or a fictional

character and 9% don't know who he is.

29% think he's a prophet.

And I just wanna come, I wanna circle back to this point,

because you mentioned CS Lewis.

You either accept that Jesus is a son of God, or he is a madman or a liar.

Why did CS Lewis say that?

And why do we in the church put that out there as something actually think about

this guys, Because, you know, if Jesus, Jesus wasn't a nice guy, he was either the

son of God or he was a complete lunatic, why, why do we give that polarization?

John Harding: Well, some of the things get lost in two, the

year 2000 and um, 22 in English.

Some of the things that Jesus is saying.

That clearly, really angered the religious Jewish leaders of the day

Get lost a little bit in translation.

Uh, Jesus is clearly to claiming to be God in at numerous times.

I mean, we're going through John's gospel, the seven I am sayings.

He's claiming to forgive sins, and that's really important because

who on earth can forgive sins apart from God and wipe that slate clean?

Um, he's claiming that if you believe in him, and we get onto this in John's

gospel, I'm the resurrection of the life.

He's claiming that if you believe in him, even though you die, you'll be raised to

new life and spent eternity in heaven.

These, these are claims that if a person makes, you'd say they're

mad unless they can back them up.

That particular one, he backs up both by raising Lazarus from the dead and

also through his own resurrection.

Everything in Christianity hinges on the resurrection, the

death and resurrection of Jesus.

And so, um, that's why, yeah, he was a prophet, but more than a

prophet, he was a sinless savior.

And, um, that's why he, he claim the claims he make.

You have to say he was either absolute nonsense or of utter first significance

for all people, for all time.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, totally agree.

And that's why I think when you, when you understand about Jesus, when you

learn about Christ, you are faced with this point where you go either what he

said is true or the man is a lunatic and he can't be something in the mi,

he can't be a nice guy in the middle, a holy guy because a nice guy, a holy guy

wouldn't make the claims that he did.

He was either completely lying and therefore totally untrustworthy

or what he said was true.

And you kind of have to get your, get your head around that.

Uh, d I'm right here in the comment.

My Jesus, uh, in fact, I can add this.

Let me do this.

I think we have the technology.

Yes.

My Jesus flipped tables and wash dirty feet.

He, he, uh, and, and, and that's the interesting thing about Jesus, isn't it?

He's, he does flip the tables and he does wash people's feet.

John Harding: Well, I mean, it's interesting that when Jesus flips the

tables, he says, Because my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.

Yeah.

Is just called the temple, where historically the presence of God

on earth dwell is called my house.

Yeah.

So that's just, it's literally on every page.

Yeah, you can, We got in human form and of course the point was in the Old Testament,

hundreds of years before God promised a time when he would come in human form.

Mm-hmm.

, it'd be Immanuel.

God with us.

So, yeah.

Um, and, and, and, and he had the confidence to serve.

And I think that's the point.

When you encounter Jesus, you get the confidence to serve when you know that you

are so loved by him and so transformed by him that you, you can do the, the things

that he did because you're not looking for status or recognition or fame or fortune.

You only want him to be famous.

And um, and that's what Jesus says when he washed the dirty feet.

He said, Uh, now that I have done that, that's what you should do to others.

Matt Edmundson: It was the greatest, uh, lesson in leadership, wasn't it?

This washing of the dirty feet.

It was just unbelievable, uh, that, that whole side of things.

Now John, we have used this word transformed quite a lot, right?

That Jesus transforms us.

Um, and I just wanna take a step back here.

And ask the question, and let's dig into it a little bit.

If you are not yet a Christ follower, if you are outside the church or

if you, you're kind of new to the Christian message, what does that mean?

How does God, Transform us?

Yeah.

Well

John Harding: I think there's two ways of answering it.

First, and we mainly major this, so far it's, it's just an observational thing.

You, you were in the service I was in and speaking it this morning.

I was saying when I look over my shoulder over my life, over the past

10, 20 years, I can see that God has been working my life changing

me, making me more like Jesus.

Um, I can say that confidently because it's the Holy Spirit's work, not my work.

I've just cooperated and surrendered to what the Spirit wants to do,

and I've got a long way to go.

Um, so, so let me give you some concrete examples of that.

there are things that were fears for me.

Yeah.

And as I brought those to Jesus and asked for his help, he's helped me

to overcome those fears, things that would trouble me and make me anxious.

And as I've brought them to him, because he promises that, um, he

will bear our burdens and that he will fill us with his peace.

And so, so every morning I come to and say, Jesus, you are the prince of peace.

Um, I ask you to fill my life of your peace.

You promise to fill my heart and in mind with peace.

And, and so my life is more characterized by his peace

than, um, it, it, it was before.

And I'm growing in more and more of that.

And I think this, that has true so many areas of our life.

Mm.

Um, it's not just making us better people, it's things like, um.

I know there are things that I've done in the past that I'm ashamed about, but as

I've brought them to God, I've experienced his forgiveness and I've experienced

his cleansing, and I've experienced him freeing me from that shame and that

guilt and that sense of, of condemnation.

That's what we mean by transformation.

Mm.

That's what we mean.

Uh, I've gone from being a very, very self-centered, egotistical

person to a less self centered, less egotistical person.

And the Lord is, um, doing a, work in my life.

Let me give you a really vulnerable, um, example.

Um, this morning I was up at seven to do my morning devotions as I always

do, and I've been a little bit tired.

I've had huge amounts of additional stuff on.

I felt I had no energy and no life.

And I was like just listening a bit like you had that song from Greg and Martha.

Before I was listening to worship music, I was just saying, Jesus,

you are promised to be my strength.

You are promised to strengthen me when I am weak.

And I, if I'm honest, I was a little bit tearful.

I was like, Jesus, I feel I've got nothing to give.

Hmm, I've got nothing to give.

And I spent, you know, a bit of time, I'm a pastor, so I I, you would expect

me to be able to prioritize that time.

Not, not all church leaders do.

It's so important to do that.

Just to just, again, like James Sloan said, just to Dr.

Imagine it just to drink that water, just to receive.

And I felt by the time I'd left the house, it house, in fact I took a

little bit of bread and wine just to have communion with the Lord.

I felt that's what he said to do and I just felt I received from him.

And I was strengthened by him and I was able to then go out as a church leader

and be involved in the church service and hopefully bless lots of people

and encourage lots of people, not in my own strength, but in his strength.

So that would be perhaps a more concrete example of this invitation

to be transformed, uh, that the Holy Spirit wants to do in our lives.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

That's brilliant.

And that's, I mean, like you say, that's a real concrete one, isn't it?

And there are times when, um, I will have the same story, you know, where you don't

feel like you've got anything to give, but God, God usually does something right,

And he brings that transformation.

So I think there's transformation in many different ways, isn't there?

There's transformation where he transforms our character, he trans

and, and as a result, our habits change, our thought patterns change.

Uh, you know, he, he transforms our thinking.

Uh, you know, the Bible talks about that, doesn't it, in Romans 12,

about getting your mind transformed.

Uh, and that normally happens for me when I read the Bible, or, you know, listening

to great sermons by your good self ofs.

Um, but it's that, and, and that brings that sort of, and like you

say, you look back over years and go, Man, God, I I was not easy.

I'm still not, but cheap as, man, that's amazing, you know, what's gone on there?

And then like, there's the, the, the more instant transformation.

So you've, uh, feeling empty this morning.

We've known people, um, instantly get healed.

We've known people actually not get instantly healed, but we know

a lot of people that have done.

Um, and there's that, that transformation there isn't there where it's sort of

where God just sort of gets involved.

So how do we, I mean, you talked, I suppose there's a clue

in what you've already said.

If I think it through John, you know, when you're talking about how this

morning you were just praying, you're doing your daily devotionals, is it

as simple as, as that to experience this transformation, uh, of, of God?

John Harding: I mean, I'm really, So we wrote a book, didn't I?

Called reflex.

You did try.

I just wanna do that every time you book titles mentioned.

Indeed.

Yeah.

Um, and I try to unpack this dynamic of transformation with

the Christian in detail because we rarely unpack the mechanism of.

One of the things I say in the book is that, um, for the Christian

transformation is a not automatic.

Mm.

It doesn't happen from being passive.

If it did, the world would be full of transformed world changing Christians.

Um, you've gotta engage in the process.

Um, and so the way I talk about it a bit like a reflex, um, input

stimulus and outcome response.

So I'd say if I poke you in the eye, you blink, you don't think about it.

It's automatic.

If the got to use on those hammers and taps you on the knee with

one of those a reflex hammers, your knee swings if you're alive.

So it's about getting the right inputs.

That's why the passage from John seven works so well for this.

Yeah, it's the right.

You've gotta, you've gotta drink it in to use the particular metaphor

that's used in today's passage.

So I would say, um, it's about encountering Jesus.

Um, we encountering through his word, just reading his word daily, not again

academically like James said, but reading it to really see Jesus and gaze

at Jesus and asking him, Jesus, what are you wanting to say to me today?

Uh, how you revealing yourself to me today?

Prayer.

Just talking to Jesus in more recent years, listening to Jesus.

So I've really tried to build the habit of, um, and discipline of silence and

just sitting in silence, um, for extended periods to hear Jesus speak to me.

Um, and again, it's not an audible voice, it's just that

sense of his spirit within me.

Um, worship.

But I think that, Community, whatever sense online or in person meeting with

others and accountability in that as well.

So, um, I, I would say if you wanted to experience radical transformation as

a Christian, probably one of the most significant things you could do today

is find a couple of other Christians that you trust that you can be open

with, that you can be vulnerable with.

Yeah.

That you can talk challenges with.

You can pray together.

We were in a group, were we for years?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We were, but we were very honest with each other confidentially about our

challenges, our struggles in life.

That was transformational.

Yeah.

It was over and it was a drip feed effect, wasn't it?

It wasn't like a, an instant thing.

It's like you look back over a six or seven year period, you're like, Wow,

Matt, God has done something in my life.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

So one of the things that James said that I, I think we should

probably just, um, touch on real quick cause I'm aware of time.

He talked about how this is not self-improvement, it's

not like the self-help thing.

This is, this is not what you're talking about.

Is it, It's not that kind of, you know, self-help rah rah kind of transformation.

Yeah,

John Harding: yeah.

I mean, we, we, we call the message of Jesus good news.

Mm-hmm.

, which is, you know, the word gospel comes from the word good

news as opposed to good advice.

And that is the point, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

and, you know, the, the Christian life will help you and impact your

life in all sorts of remarkable ways.

But fundamentally, um, it, it starts like this.

It starts with the message that God deeply loves you, God deeply

desires relationship with you.

Um, all of us have done wrong things, all of us.

Sinned to use that old fashioned word.

You know, Um, all of us have fallen short of God's standards and um, and so

God comes into our world and he becomes like us and takes on flesh and blood and

human fog over that flesh and blood can be broken and poured out on the cross so

that all of your sin and all of my sin and all of your shame, and all of my shame,

and all of our brokenness and all of our condemnation and all of our guilt and

all of our sickness is placed on Jesus.

On the cross is a substitute, is is a sacrificial lamb for us.

The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and we

get his life and his freedom.

And so really it's not about good advice or about self-help, it's about recognizing

our deep, profound need for Jesus.

Yeah.

And his forgiveness and asking for that.

And he comes and he cleanses us, and he makes his home in our hearts.

That is the Christian message.

Mm-hmm.

, that is the good news, that we can be forgiven and set free in our

relationship with Jesus restored.

So we have good news people and we want the world to know that.

Matt Edmundson: That's such a good saying.

And I, I've, I mean the, it's, it's funny isn't it?

You know, the visualizing your goals and saying it out loud every day and you know,

tell the universe that's what you want.

This is the, the Christian message, The power of it doesn't come from

you, it comes from him and it comes from Christ in you, you know.

The God of the universe that lives inside you, which is still one of the most

miraculous things I've got to drink.

Get my head around every day.

Right.

That he makes his home in us.

Uh, in fact, I wrote that in my notes earlier, John, as you were talking, I just

wrote, he makes our home in us brackets and once he moves in, he likes to give

it a bit of a clean closed brackets.

John Harding: He does, he does.

Yeah.

That's the point.

Yeah.

We belong to him and he belongs to us.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Yeah, that's totally true.

So it's not self-help.

This is not you trying to do something in your own strength.

This is, this is, uh, the gospel.

One last thing, John, Uh, totally a lit a little bit off piece, but related

to what Anna said, and Dion actually put this, I've marked it down here.

Um, so Anna starts off her story by talking about how she went to

food bank and met Estelle, right?

Who is also one of God's choice people.

Right.

She is just such a lovely, lovely lady.

Yes.

And so Dionne wrote here, always good to hear about the power of a good welcome.

Yeah.

And there's, there's something quite magical about that, isn't there?

I mean, you've seen it in church and I've seen it in church.

It actually, the, the welcome that you get when you, when you go into church, I think

can often make or break what you, how you feel about that whole thing, right?

Yeah.

Um, and I just want any thoughts on that?

Cause I just, we've been talking about you.

I just thought I'd, I'd mention that.

Cause I thought it's such a good point.

John Harding: Well, let me just say, first of all, um, I'm sat looking at a computer

screen with a camera in front of me.

I can see a few comments coming up.

There's some names on those.

Some names I don't know.

I mean, thank you for joining us.

Yeah.

I mean, we, we are so blessed that you have joined us and given some of your

time and I hope it really blesses you.

And I hope you, you connect in.

So whatever I can say to welcome.

You guys, um, welcome.

It's just brilliant having you.

Part of what's going on here and being part of it.

I, I remember I went to a church in, um, in, in Singapore a number

of years ago, and, um, I was a little bit tired and weary in

life and we were welcomed so well.

Mm.

We were made to feel so special that it was like, like

the best bit of the service.

Mm.

It was like, it was, it was in itself almost like transformational, you know,

it's, um, xenophobia xenophilia, the, um, the, the sort of love of the stranger.

It's just to sort of make people feel like they're part of the family.

And I just think that's so much what Jesus is doing in the gospels.

Jesus is there's the push and the pull of Jesus for those who think they know

best, the arrogant, the religious, and the, there is a push, there's a challenge.

But for the who, whoevers for the lonely, for the outcasts, for

the isolated, for the excluded, there is a welcome from Jesus.

Yeah.

And uh, I suppose this is representatives on earth, his followers, we need to

get much more better, uh, welcoming and receiving people like, like Jesus

did because he was the master of it.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I totally agree.

And it goes without saying, Regardless of who you are or where you are,

what you believe or what you don't believe, you're always welcome.

Uh, always.

Welcome at Crowd.

Always welcome at Frontline here in Liverpool.

If you're in the city, we would love to see you.

We would love to meet you , uh, it's, um, yeah, it's one of those big

challenges, like you say, to always be kind of that welcoming, isn't it?

Oh, brilliant.

So, John, let me just, uh, bring up this comment here cuz Matt Crew, who

always reminds me of the things that I should or shouldn't say, uh, bless him.

He's put here in the comments.

Um, where's it gone here?

Don't forget everyone, the clocks change.

In fact, let me put it on, uh, the clocks change.

Uh, next Sunday morning.

Join us at six pm GMT next Sunday.

Matt Edmundson announces this at the end of the live stream.

So, thank you, uh, Matt for that public service announcement announcement there.

John, we get another hour in bed, don't we?

Uh, is that We do, don't we?

We get another hour in bed next weekend, which is, uh, which is i, I have to be

honest, I just think they need to get rid of this clock changing nonsense.

But, you know, I don't wanna get too political here on Crowd Church, but come

on, government, uh, you know, fix it.

We don't need it.

John Harding: Even changing your way happens on my birthday weekend.

So for as long as I can remember, I've had a a a, I've lost an hour.

I've had to get up, like we've lost an hour on my birthday and birthday weekend.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, that's not a good, that's not a good

association to have, is it really Just you need to get rid of that.

Uh, so yes, let's petition, uh, the new, whoever they are, whoever comes in power.

God bless you.

Um, I saw, actually, can we get a little bit political?

I saw.

Justin Wellby wrote on Twitter that he had been praying for Liz Truss

after she resigned, uh, and said, uh, you know, regardless of political

opinion, you've been a public servant.

Uh, thank you for your service and, um, praying for you.

Well, the backlash, um, from people over that level.

What about praying for the poor?

What about this?

What about that?

And I'm like, Yeah, I don't think that means Justin's not doing that.

Uh, no, You know, I, I think it's all in there.

Um, so regardless of your political stance, do be praying for England.

Uh, at the moment in this political climate, which we now face ourselves,

John Harding: uh, we, I'm gonna say that, and I know you and I agree on

this from over the years, but if you're a follower of Jesus, let's not use

social media to say things that are rude and offensive and argumentative

and disrespectful, that undermine our witness to the world, uh, about people.

Because whatever you think of that person or that from that political party

or whatever, God loves them deeply.

Mm-hmm.

and God longs to bring his grace and his mercy to them.

They're just a broken human, just like you and I, who needs

God's love and God's grace.

So yeah, let's love them.

Matt Edmundson: Let's pray for them that could not have said that better myself.

Absolutely.

Uh, let's do that.

And actually, um, I often think when I read some of those social media comments

by Christians, um, it undermines their, it, it undermines the wrong phrase.

It shows me that their faith is in the government rather than in the God of

the government, if that makes sense.

Uh, and um, I think it's just in times like this, we don't have to be afraid.

We don't have to panic cuz Jesus is still on the throne.

Uh, and he's still,

John Harding: whose life has been transformed by Jesus.

Because when you realize how real he is in your life, it gives you a

confidence when all the energy bills are going up and when, who knows who's

gonna be in government for how long and who knows what Russia's gonna do.

And yeah.

Our confidence is not in any of those things.

Mm-hmm.

, It's in the living relationship that we have withJjesus.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, totally.

Totally.

And that's the hope we have one of the many, uh, uh, that we can hold

onto in this political crazy time.

Yes, I'm keen.

Yes, I'm interested.

Yes, I care.

But fundamentally my hope is built on him.

Uh, and he's the anchor of my soul.

So, uh, we can trust in that.

But obviously, You know, pray for our government and, um, and our leaders at

this time, and that Gods will be done in terms of, you know, what happens next.

Really?

England needs a little bit of, uh, That's very true.

Uh, Dion, I'm just, sorry.

Glance over at YouTube.

Neither trust nor Boris nor Richie, I suppose, uh, nor Penny Morton

or any of the other consent to contends, uh, have the power to

stop the plans or power of Jesus.

Amen.

Very true.

John, thank you so much for joining us, buddy.

Uh, it's been great to see you, uh, always love hosting with you.

Always love conversation street.

Yeah.

I always love throwing you the tricky questions.

Cause you, you quite happily answer them.

If you ask some other people, they tend to throw 'em back at you.

And I'm just like, No, no.

I'm just gonna give to on these.

That's fine.

John Harding: I didn't even know that was an option.

Next time,

Matt Edmundson: it's for you mate.

It's not.

Uh, next week we have Esther Richards speaking, talk about transformation.

Esther has a phenomenal story, which is on the What's the Story podcast, how God

brought her through insane depression, um, and almost on the verge of suicide.

And if you want to hear that story, it's on What's the Story.

It's the very first one.

Anna Kettle and Dan Orange will be hosting.

I'll be back in a couple of weeks with Phil Watson, uh,

which will just be hysterical.

Um, just the way it's gonna be, uh, but brilliant at the

same time cuz that's just Phil.

Uh, so we are gonna end Crowd Church right there.

Do, come join us next week, 6:00 PM if you would like to join in our weekly, uh, Live

Weekly Life is not a weekly, uh, midweek prayer meeting is what I'm trying to say.

If you'd like to come join us on Zoom midweek in our community group slash

prayer meeting slash get together slash whatever's gonna happen happens.

Uh, we would love to see you.

Just get in touch with us.

We will send you the details for that.

It was great.

Miriam joined us this week, so, uh, great to see Miriam.

Uh, thank you so much, uh, as John said for joining us.

Thanks for giving up your time and joining the comment.

It's good to see so many people in the comments.

Uh, so Sarah, uh, no worries, thanks.

She says, thanks for such a great stream.

Um, Matt Crew says, Thanks to the Ancient ones for hosting tonight.

I think he's talking about you, John.

Brilliant.

God bless you.

Everyone.

Have a fantastic week.

Uh, we'll be back again next week, uh, from John and myself.

God bless you, everyone.

Um,