Turning Leadership on its head | Origin Series #09

Matt Edmundson: Welcome to this week's Crowd Church service.

We are a digital church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps

us live a more meaningful life.

We are a community, a space to explore the Christian faith and a place where

you can contribute and grow Our service, uh, will last about an hour and in a few

seconds you'll meet our hosts, uh, for our service, who will introduce today's talk.

After the talk, we will have a time of worship and reflection after which we

head into Conversation Street, where we look at your stories and questions

that you've posted in the comments.

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And now the moment you've been waiting for is here.

Our online Church Service starts right now.

Well good afternoon, good evening.

Welcome to Crowd Online Church.

Great that you are with us here on Remembrance Sunday.

Uh, and I am with the beautiful and amazing.

Claire Glare.

Claire, thank you for joining us today.

How are we doing?

Claire Glare: Absolutely brilliant.

Thank you.

I love taking a moment there to remember and, and, uh, yeah.

Good to be with you all today.

Thanks for having me.

Matt Edmundson: No, it's great that you are here and I'm loving your poppy.

Claire Glare: I know.

Oh, wrong side.

Crochet.

Not done by me.

Matt Edmundson: Not done by you.

Okay.

Fair enough.

Uh, for those of you outside of the uk, rememberance Sunday is just a time

when we remember those who have, uh, fallen, who, who or who are in service,

uh, at the moment, uh, and have fought so bravely for us over the years in the

many battles that we've had to face.

And so, yeah, that's why we do it.

And do you know why we wear the poppies, Claire?

Claire Glare: Um, yeah.

Basically in, um, southern, well in France where people's bodies died, when

the poppy grows after disturbed ground.

And so it was what was growing on, you know, over people's, um,

bodies, the graveyards, really the of the fallen soldiers.

And, and I think, um, it was just a really stark reminder that

life comes after death, I think.

Um, Uh, you know?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

And there was that famous poem, wasn't there in Flanders

Fields, Uh, where Poppy's grow.

Yeah.

Which came from the, the war as well.

The Great War.

So, uh, yes.

Uh, it's always good to take time and just be grateful and thankful.

Uh, I'm reminded of the words by Churchill, never have, uh,

so many owed so much to so few.

Uh, and it's very true.

Uh, and so yes, uh, whether wars are just, or right or wrong or the morals of

that we can get into maybe another day.

But just for now, we say thank you and we are grateful.

Yeah.

So thank you for joining us on this Remembrance Sunday.

Uh, today we are carrying on our troll is maybe the wrong word.

Our, our journey.

Claire Glare: He was a fisherman.

I think that's

.. Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, let's go with Troll, uh, through the Gospel of John.

We're in a series called Origin, uh, and we have been, uh, on a whistle stop tour

through the Gospel of John, uh, looking at the life of Christ, getting ready to

dig into a book called Acts, which is this great book just sort of describes

the life of the early church and what happened right there at the beginning,

which we're really keen to get into.

Uh, but of course we can, we can just spend a little bit

of time here in John's gospel.

So my very good friend, uh, Mr.

Tony Uddin, who is a pastor of a church down in Tar Hamlets, is

gonna be sharing with us today.

Uh, after that we're gonna have a time of worship.

Um, and then after that we've got Conversation Street with myself

and Claire all in the context of Remembrance Sunday as well.

So we are gonna be carrying on that conversation.

But before we get into Tony's talk, Uh, Tony's talk.

Theres a lot of T in there, I've just realized it's Tony's talk.

Um, before we get into,

Claire Glare: So, uh, we, something Matt.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You should read something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, we are in John's Gospel chapter 13, I think.

Is it Claire?

You just read it out.

Claire Glare: Okay.

So it's John's Gospel 13 from the start of the chapter through to verse 16,

and it's called in, in, in this Bible.

It's Jesus washes the disciples' feet.

Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come,

that he should depart from the world to the father, having loved his own who

were in the world, he loved them to the end, and supper being ended, the devil

having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son to betray him.

Jesus knowing that the father had given all things into his hands and that he

had come from God and was going to God, rose from supper and laid aside his

garments, took a towel and girded himself.

After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash the

disciples feet and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.

Then he came to Simon Peter and Peter said to him, Lord, are you washing my feet?

Jesus answered and said to him, What I am doing, you do not understand

now, but you will know after this.

Peter said to him, You shall never wash my feet.

Jesus answered him.

If I do not wash you, you have no part with me.

Simon Peter said to him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

Jesus said to him, He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet

but is completely clean and you are clean, but not all of you.

For he knew who would betray him.

Therefore, he said, You are not all clean.

So when he had washed their feet, taken his garments and sat down

again, he said to them, Do you know what I have done to you?

You call me teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am.

If then your Lord and teacher have washed your feet, you also

ought to wash one another's feet.

For I have given you an example that you should do as I have done to you.

Most assuredly I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is he

who is sent greater than he who sent him.

Matt Edmundson: Very good.

So we are gonna let Tony carry on that conversation as we

talk about what that means.

And if you are new to the Christian faith or not heard that passage before, it's not

a bit weird, washing each other's feet?

Claire Glare: Girded was the word that I was amused by.

Matt Edmundson: Jesus was girded.

Uh, so, I'm looking forward to that conversation.

Let me tell you.

So here is Tony's talk, uh, related to that passage.

After that, like I said, there's gonna be some worship and then Claire back.

Claire and I will be back for Conversation Street.

So do add your questions, do add your comments.

Uh, in there I can see we've got some people in there already got Matt Crew,

we've got Elizabeth, uh, Miriam in there.

So I'm not reading the second name on the first name.

Sharon's in there.

We're all in the comments.

So do come and say hi.

It'd be great to see you.

Um, and yeah, we'll be back to Conversation Street

after worship after this.

Tony Uddin: Good afternoon.

It's great to be with you at Crowd Church today as you continue

your look through John's gospel.

We today at John chapter 13, and I want us to look at how Jesus sets

John 13 · chapter mention

an example of servant leadership.

In the, uh, chapters just before this, we see Jesus entry back into Jerusalem.

In one sense, warmly welcomed, but in another sense talking about the

fact that he would go to the cross.

And what I want us to see is that John's Gospel gives this tremendous detail of

the last few, uh, hours, particularly and of Jesus ministry before he was arrested.

As John's gospel moves towards its climax, we see that so much of it is focused on

the last couple of days of Jesus' life.

And here we see in John 13, Jesus is preparing to go to the cross and

in doing so, he sets the example of what it is to be a servant.

You know, it's interesting, isn't it?

Just how much, uh, leadership is such a contested topic.

Our world has high expectations of leadership, but generally

low expectations of leaders.

We want leaders, we want leadership that will be good,

that will look out for our best.

We want leadership that causes others to thrive.

But generally our experience is of leaders who use the power and authority

they have in self-serving ways.

That's certainly true in politics.

It's often true in business.

It's true in in so many areas, and unfortunately at times it's even

sometimes true of the church and Jesus is leaving and setting the

disciples a really powerful example of what servant leadership is.

So I want us to take a look a closer look at that.

Firstly, uh, the context.

Jesus' love is expressed through being with his disciples.

Jesus love is expressed through being with his disciples.

Verse one says, Jesus 'knew that the hour had come for him to leave

this world and to go to the Father.

The very last, uh, day of Jesus' public ministry, you know, Jesus

knew he was going to the cross.

And he was communicating something to his disciples simply by the fact that

he was with them and that he was giving them that his undivided attention.

It's a powerful thing, isn't it, that we show people honor and

respect through giving them time.

Sometimes it may even be easier to give someone money than it is to

give them our time, and what we see is Jesus is giving them time in the

last day or, uh, before his arrest, he wants to be with his disciples.

If you knew that your life was to end in a week's time, probably change

how you live your life, wouldn't it?

If you knew that your life was to end in a month's time or a year's time, I

think you'd probably live differently.

I'm, I certainly hope I would.

Jesus knew that within hours he would be arrested.

And yet he chose to be with his disciples.

By being with them, he was expressing what it is to be a servant leader.

But also we know that Jesus was preparing them for the fact that

they, that he would go to the cross.

He was building them up.

John includes in his gospel, his own reason for writing the gospel.

John chapter 20, verse 31.

John 20:31

But these things have been written so that you may believe Jesus is

the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

John wanted his readers, people like you and I, who would read

this gospel to believe in Jesus and through believing in Jesus.

Find life, real life, eternal life, life abundant.

And Jesus wanted his disciples to have that.

That is why he was willing to go to the cross.

In speaking about what was to happen in preparing his

disciples in being with them.

Jesus was expressing love through servanthood.

I want us just to contrast that with the disciples.

This same account, the account of the same thing in Luke 22, shows us that actually

there was a argument that developed between the disciples at this time.

In verse 24 of Luke 22, it says, A dispute also arose among them as to which of

them was to be considered the greatest.

Jesus said to them, The kings of the Gentiles lorded over them, and

those who exercise authority over them call themselves benefactors.

But you are not to be like that.

The greatest among you shall be the youngest.

And the one who rules will be the one who serves.

Jesus is preparing to go to the cross to die for your sin and

mine, to pay the ultimate price to show what it is to be a servant.

And the disciples are jostling for position.

They're saying, Jesus, am I gonna be the one that gets the best place when you go?

And in the midst of this, Jesus shows them what true servant hearted

leadership is like, not something that is just merely expressed in

words, but communicated in actions and Jesus actions of being with them.

The phrase that's used there in verse one is he loved them to

the end by being with them, by preparing to give his life for them.

Jesus was showing that love is expressed and it's expressed in servant heartedness,

but also secondly, Jesus showed them that love is demonstrated and he demonstrated

it by washing the disciples feet.

In verse three, we read, Jesus knew that the Father had put all things

under his power and that he had come from God and was returning to God.

So he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing and

wrapped a towel around his waist.

After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his

disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

Jesus knew that he was going back to the Father.

He knew that he was, uh, preparing to face the cross and then would be

raised in return to God the father.

And in doing so, he sets the tone.

This idea that he got up, He says, This is what I have to leave you with.

I have to show you something that is so important.

And that was that he would wash his disciples feet.

The scandal of the greatest teacher, whoever was washing the feet of the

disciples, the scandal of God himself in human flesh, the one through whom

and for whom all things were made, humbling himself before human feet

in all of the squalor and filth.

It's a remarkable picture.

Isn't it.

This is the glory of God.

You wanna see the power and glory of God?

The power and glory of God is demonstrated in Jesus washing the disciple's feet.

You know, years ago I worked, uh, in homelessness and there was a podiatrist

I worked with, and her role was to go out on the streets and to find entrenched

rough sleepers and to really, people were resistant to help very often

with extremely poor personal hygiene.

And her role was to, uh, basically help them with their feet.

And I was struck time and time again how she would literally

deal with some of the worst, most unhygienic feet you could imagine.

And she'd do it with a smile on her face, treating people

with utter dignity and respect.

Whenever I think of her, I'm reminded of this passage.

This is a manifestation of the glory of God.

Here's the substance.

Here's what God looks like getting involved at the lowest possible level.

This is the power of God at work as Jesus washes the disciples feet.

You know, it was the job of the, in the context at the time of the lowest

servant in the house to wash the feet.

It wouldn't even have been a normal servant's job.

Really, If you were washing people's feet, you were the lowest of the low.

You were at the bottom of the pile.

You know, those of you maybe watched something like Downtown Abbey.

You'll have seen, you know, the, the butler.

He's quite prim and proper, isn't he?

And so much that he views as being beneath him.

He's risen to a different station in life.

And as you go through the different servants, they all

look down on the one below..

Well, the job of washing the feet in Jesus time was for the very lowest of the low.

And Jesus demonstrates humility.

Jesus demonstrates servanthood by washing their feet.

It's quite interesting as Jesus does this, they would've

been shocked and scandalized.

And I want us to see, uh, to contrast Peter's response with Jesus.

Jesus is demonstrating humility, but in one sense, Peter is demonstrating pride.

In verse eight, Peter says, No said Peter, you shall never wash my feet.

When Jesus wants to wash the disciples feet, Peter thinks he knows better

and his pride won't let Jesus do it.

And one of the things true humility means acknowledging and

understanding that God knows best.

Peter's pride is about to be humbled.

He's gonna come and we'll see this.

As these chapters go on, he's gonna come to the end of himself,

the end of his own self will.

You see, even though it was wrapped up in a kind of false humility,

Jesus, I'll never let you do that.

What we are experiencing there is pride and self will.

When Jesus reminds him of the need to have his feet washed, Peter

says, Then wash the whole of me.

Don't just stop at my feet.

Interesting how Jesus answers in verse 10.

Those who've had a bath and you don't need to wash the feet.

Their whole body is clean and you are clean.

You see, Jesus is gonna make them clean through the fact

that he would die on the cross.

He was about to give his life.

Jesus was going to die in their place, but in your place and mine, that on

the cross, Jesus was gonna take every sin, every wrongdoing, all of our

selfishness, all the junk from our hearts, and place them on himself so

that by having faith in him, we can be made new, forgiven, having a new start.

And Peter wants, uh, Jesus wants Peter to know that it's, that that will make him

clean, not just having his feet washed.

But Jesus wants to do this, uh, as a, as a demonstration, but also a

metaphor for what it is to lead.

That to lead involves servanthood and humility.

And that means, firstly, acknowledging that Jesus is Lord not us.

It means acknowledging that his way is best not ours.

It means acknowledging that we can no longer live in our own self will.

If Jesus was the ultimate servant, then to follow his example, we need to embrace

his humility and die to self will.

Watchman Nee famously said, Attempting to follow Jesus without denying the

self is the root of all failures.

Peter was about to fail.

He was about to deny Jesus.

He was about to come to the end of his pride.

Jesus was showing him and Jesus actions show us what true humility looked like.

Jesus demonstrates the role of servant leadership.

Wouldn't it be amazing if our politicians, if our business leaders, if as church

leaders, we lived in such a way that demonstrated that we are firstly servants.

It's the example Jesus gave, but Jesus gave a uh, a demonstration

that was to be followed.

That's point number three, that Jesus actions are for us to follow.

Verse 12, when he had finished washing their feet, he put on his

clothes and returned to his place.

Do you understand what I've done for you?

He asked them, You call me teacher and Lord and rightly so for that is what I am.

Now that I the Lord and teacher have washed your feet, you should

also wash one another's feet.

I have set you an example and you should do as I've done for you.

Very truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor a messenger

greater than the one who sent him.

Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

So Jesus expresses his love for his disciples by being with them.

Jesus demonstrates his love for them by washing his feet, but he also

gives them a command to do likewise.

Leadership in the kingdom of God is ultimately about serving.

We have the example of Jesus.

Verse 13 there, You call me Lord and teacher, and rightly

so for that is what I am.

Now that I your Lord and teacher washed your feet, you should

also wash one another's feet.

If it was good enough for Jesus, then it's the example we should follow.

You know, think about the examples of servanthood and humility in your life.

You know, one of the things that strikes me is my father came as a migrant from

Bangladesh and when he came, he basically spent his life, uh, working all kinds of

jobs and worked hard because he wanted us to have a better life than he had.

He wanted us to have the opportunities that we, he never had.

He gave of himself because he wanted better for us.

That's what a good father does.

Now, sadly, a lot of fathers aren't that way, but Jesus set the example of what

it is to give, to give of ourself, to give of our very best in a selfless way.

I believe that in the kingdom of God, aspiring to be a

servant is an end in itself.

And I want to challenge you today.

If you want to be a follower of Jesus that involves using whatever

power, whatever influence, whatever responsibility you have, whatever

privilege you have in life, my challenge is for you today, will you use it for

yourself or will you use it for others?

Jesus set the example of the ultimate sacrifice.

We don't need to die in for anybody's sins.

Jesus has done it for us, but like him, we need to be willing

to come to the end of ourself.

In that sense, we need to live for him.

We need to act in humility and serve others.

So does that mean we should all go around and, uh, basically have a, a

service where we wash each other's feet?

Well, I don't think it's about that.

What it's about is the example of Jesus willing to take on the

lowest of tasks to serve others.

I want to ask you, what does that look like for you?

Are you willing to take on the lowest of tasks?

Maybe that means mowing someone's lawn.

Maybe it means letting others take the credit for the project at work.

Maybe it means putting somebody else in the spotlight, allowing

them to receive praise.

Maybe it means cleaning someone's toilet.

Maybe it might mean dropping someone else's kids off for them.

Even when you've got a busy day, you see servanthood as

the opposite of selfishness.

But also, maybe there's something more fundamental here.

Maybe even the fact that Jesus gave the disciples his time or

to speak to us about servanthood through giving others our time.

. Iknow for me it is very easy for me to be distracted.

I have a short attention span, and maybe being a servant in terms of our

leadership means giving the person in front of us our full attention.

Maybe it means not looking at our phones while they're speaking.

Maybe being a servant means being places on time, showing respect for others.

Maybe it means being willing to do the hard work, manual grunt work.

It might seem like to you, maybe it means like not asking people to do things that

we are not prepared to do ourselves.

You know, the church of Jesus is it's most beautiful when it is like him,

and that is a church of servants.

We don't really have time.

But there's a beautiful passage in Philippians two verses one to

11, which gives, which is in one sense a parallel passage to this.

It shows how Jesus got up in John.

It says, Jesus got up.

Philippians two says, Jesus left the glories of heaven, this Passage

John says, Jesus took off his robe.

Philippians says, Jesus emptied himself and came as a man.

John says, Jesus took up a towel.

Jesus said, Uh, Philippians says, Jesus came as a servant.

John shows us that Jesus poured water into a bowl.

Jesus' example is that he poured out his life.

Says in this passage in John, that when he finished washing

the disciples feet, he sat down.

Philippians tells us that Jesus, when God raised him, is

seated at the right hand of God.

I wanna ask you, are you willing to follow the example of Jesus, that

sacrificial love for God, sacrificial love for each other, and sacrificial

love for a hurting and dying world?

Jesus love, verse one told us, was loving till the end complete,

unending, not tokenistic, not convenient, but sacrificial.

And I want to ask you, what's your response to King Jesus,

the king who is a servant?

Are you prepared to live a life of service to God and service to others?

God bless you.

Claire Glare: Welcome back.

Matt Edmundson: Uh, Claire.

Welcome back to me.

I mean, no one else has gone anywhere.

We, we were the ones that left, I suppose.

Just thinking about it.

Uh, yes.

Love that song.

Uh, and we're gonna get into the words of that hymn actually,

cause hymn talked about sacrifice.

Tony talked a lot about sacrifice, uh, in his talk.

And today is Remembrance Sunday, where we remember the sacrifice of many people.

Yeah.

Uh, and so we're gonna get into all of that.

Claire, It's been a while since you have heard from Tony.

Uh, you were talking about this before we went online, weren't you?

That it's been a wee while, Right.

But what did you, what did you think to that talk?

Claire Glare: I, you know, I just think, you know, their example down,

they work down in London, don't they?

In the church.

I know that they do amazing things in their community.

Just very practical, loving, um, kind serving stuff.

Um, Tony and his wife and their team down there.

So yeah, just brilliant.

I think just to, there was something that really struck me.

You know, I think it's often the simplest things, you know, giving time and

attention to people, you know, actually paying real attention to people doing.

See the phrase, the song that was going through my head a little bit

was not when I survey the Wondrous Cross, but um, How low can you go?

Do you remember that one?

Sorry I've completely gone off, off piece here, but just I think

almost not a competition cause it isn't a competition, but trying

to kind of outdo each other Yeah.

As servant hearted and as love has given to do the lowest job, the

job that nobody else wants to do.

And I think that that is a real challenge, isn't it, to us just, um,

Because there's always something more exciting or more fun to do, isn't there?

Matt Edmundson: Um, there's always something that's more selfish to do.

Yeah.

And there's, I dunno about you, Claire, but I find there's never a

shortage of, uh, selfish things to do.

Uh, there's just an abundance of them.

Uh, and so it's a really interesting one.

I think I wanna get into some of the things that Tony said

and one of the questions that Mims, Miriam's put in the post.

I think it's a really interesting question cuz Tony.

It sort of ends this sort of, uh, talk with, will you be more Christ like,

will you, you know, will you do this?

Will you, uh, become more servant minded?

Which I think is a great question.

And, you know, we talked about why that is, uh, but it's just

a really interesting question.

Is it in terms of balance?

How do you do that?

Uh, what is the balance between, uh, what's the fancy phrase everyone loves

at the moment, which really winds me up?

Self care.

That's it.

Self love, self care.

And you're just like, I'm do you know what I mean?

It's like, no, no, no, I've got, this is what I mean.

There's not a, there's not a, a shyness in terms of selfishness

in the world at the moment.

And so I guess for a question for you, Claire, is how do

you bring that balance, right?

Because you've, you've done the missionary thing, you've given up your life and

gone into distant, far away lands.

You're a, a beautiful lady.

You're a beautiful mum, you're a wife, you're doing all these things, uh,

for work, serving, helping people.

Go.

How do you do balance?

Go.

Claire Glare: Not quite sure there was a real question in

that, but I'll do my best.

Um, I think, can I read this bit from Philippians that I found and

go for it and Tony mentioned it, but, um, yeah, I'm reading from

the message from your bookshelf.

Bookshelf, actually Matt.

Um, but it was talking about, um, uh, if you've got anything out of

all of, of being following Christ.

If his love has made any difference in, in our lives.

I'm paraphrasing.

If being in a community of the spirit means anything to us, if we have a

heart, if we care, then do me a favor.

And I think it's Paul writing to the Philippians, isn't it?

Yeah.

Agree with each other.

Love each other.

Be deep spirited friends.

Don't push your way to the front.

Don't sweet talk your way to the top.

I love that.

And put yourself aside and help others get ahead.

Don't be obsessed with getting your own advantage.

Forget yourselves long enough to lend a helping hand.

And I just thought that that really, uh, you know, Tony wanted

to sort of read it, but there's only so much time, isn't there?

I think, you know, it's not about forgetting yourself in all of that.

It's not about, you know, burning the candle at both ends and being so exhausted

that you're, you know, you can't Yeah.

get up on time.

It's not about that.

It's about.

Um, I think it's about, for me, it's trying to listen to the voice of the

Holy Spirit, um, uh, to, um, that little nudge, um, to, to say, Oh,

there's a, just stop and just listen to that person for a bit longer.

Um, or there's a, you know, just trying to find those moments to, to

connect and to love people, I think.

And, you know, in, in whatever way that might be.

Whether it's, you know, giving something to somebody on the street or so, a

stranger or, I think the challenge is even more with your family because

they see the rough edges, don't they?

Yeah, they do.

And I'm particularly grumpy at night and that's when they need me

Most I'm like, Just go bed, . I don't wanna read a story to you now.

Matt Edmundson: Well, we best roll on with the live stream then.

That's all I'm saying.

That's not everyone.

No, I think it's very true.

Uh, it's it's fascinating, isn't it?

It's not all about, uh, give, give, give.

But it's not all about take, take, take.

And there seems to be a balance, doesn't there?

And Sharon's put here in the comments, do you think there's a place for

self care in the Christian life?

Cuz I appreciate that by a comment.

We may have just ticked everybody off that thinks self care is important.

Claire Glare: I, I think we've, I think we're, I think there's

a pendulum, isn't there?

And I think a pendulum swing and I.

I, I totally think that you have to look after yourself, you know, and you, um,

you, you know, the love one another, you know, as yourself kind thing, you know?

That is, that is a, that is a quote, isn't it?

From the Jesus said it, so it's fine.

He said it.

You know, sometimes we, we quote Jesus and we, we get it wrong

sometimes, but that is real one.

And I think it, so, you know, you have to take care of yourself, don't you?

You know, otherwise, you, But I, I think we are just, I think we are just

reacting to the word self-care, aren't we?

That we, Western world, it's been banded around a lot, and I think it is, I think

sometimes it is an excuse for selfishness or, but I, you know, nine times outta

10, it's, you know, you, you know your body tells you, you just need to stop.

You know, even if it's half an hour, you know, get a little nap.

I'm, I'm all about the daytime naps.

Matt Edmundson: The day the power naps.

Dun dun.

No, I agree, Claire.

I think you're right.

I think, um, regardless of what you want to call it, uh, and the

reason why self-care winds me up is because it becomes an excuse not

to do anything for anybody else.

Uh, and that's, I think why I've struggled with it as much as I have.

Yeah.

But the principles are still there.

Like you say, love one another as you love yourself, you know, treat others

as you would want to be treated.

There is this sort of, do not think of yourself more highly than you should.

Doesn't mean to think of yourself lowly, It's just not more highly than you should

help others get along, prefer others.

Do, you know what I mean?

It's that kind of, I think it's a really interesting thing, isn't it?

That actually there is this balance that we, that we have to fight.

Uh, but as Christians actually the emphasis is more on servant.

And I think the whole concept of leadership being servant leadership is

something without getting too political, that our political leaders, Oh, can we not

our political leaders should definitely, Well, I'm quite happy to get political.

Uh, but it's, it's, it's one of those things, isn't it?

It's like Rishi Sunak who is the now prime Minister of the of Britain.

What's my best advice for him?

Be a servant, right?

Yes.

It's that kind of servant leadership is the best form of leadership.

And I think self-serving leadership is always just caught out, isn't it?

And we struggle with it.

Um, and so yeah, it's one of those where I think, I think if you are in some form

of leadership, Mm, asking yourself the question like, how, how do I, how well

am I doing in the servant leader role?

Is not a bad question to ask yourself.

And how can I improve in that?

Right?

How can I, I do that.

Tim Keller quoted.

Claire Glare: Wait.

I've got a absolutely brilliant manager at work and, um, I've been

so impressed with how she has set.

Um, she just really recognizes like, when our team needs a bit of a break,

and she, one time she did a bit of self care with us, but it was lovely.

She bought us little chocolates.

She bought us some hankies.

She bought us a few little things like that, but she, she

also spent time thinking about.

The individual qualities that we all brought to the team.

And she just, it was just so thoughtful and from her heart, and I was just

like, you're a brilliant manager.

You know, you, you know, as far as I know, doesn't, doesn't know, uh, Jesus.

Um, but, you know, it was really modeled great leadership to me.

Yeah.

Um, and I I love that.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

No, I, I think you're totally right.

Um, Dionne's, putting the comments here, what do you think about servanthood

being an attitude rather than an action?

So it's more about our motivation rather than how much actual servant we do.

I quite, I like the idea.

Um, and I, I'm very anti the, uh, the measurement grade Do You know what I mean?

I've done 14 hours of, of serving this week, so therefore I've

checked that off in my checkbox.

I don't, I'm not a big fan of that.

Uh, and so I, I would agree that it starts with attitude.

Dunno about you Claire.

Claire Glare: Mm.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I do, but I, I think also kind of the proof

of the puddings in the eating.

I think if you don't, if you say stuff, you know, you talk, you talk the talk, but

you don't walk the walk, you know, Again, it's that balance, isn't it of Yeah.

It's good.

You've, um, you, I think actions in a sense, speak louder for me.

Um, I'm a bit of an activist.

Matt Edmundson: No, really, really, Claire.

Claire Glare: Not so much of a thinker.

Um, and so I, you know, Do think, do ponder and then do it.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

But I think, I think, I think Dion's right?

I think it's gotta come out, out of a right attitude.

You know, Paul, Paul talks about this, isn't he?

And he's like, If I do this, if I give away this and do that and do

all these amazing things, but have a lot, not, don't have love, Yeah.

Then I've become as a resounding gong or whatever the King James

says, which is a great phrase.

Um, and so yes, we don't, we don't wanti resounding gongs, we just, we don't want

that hot air nonsense and dion's put here actually, our faith and works go

hand in hand, which is totally right.

Uh, and you know, you've, you've, you've gotta have both.

So here's a question that I came across, um, when I quickly googled

questions people have about servant leadership while Tony was doing his talk.

And I thought this was a great question.

Who do you serve who cannot repay you in any way?

Yeah.

Do, you know what I mean?

That's a really fascinating question, isn't it?

Claire Glare: Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I think, and I was thinking about the same sort of thing while

Tony was speaking, that, that actually, if you are, and I think it's that

sweet talk in your way to success.

If we're, if we're, if we're doing things to people that we know can somehow,

you know, scratch you, scratch my back and I'll scratch yours or the other

way around, or whatever, you know, that's, that's not really serving is it?

No.

You know, But if you're doing things.

What is it to the least of these?

Yeah.

Then you, you're doing it onto Jesus, you know, and I think I've

actually had a couple of amazing examples of washing people's feet.

Shall I tell you very briefly about them?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

I'm curious now.

Yeah, go for it.

Claire Glare: I, it's actually one of my things that I really like to

do, and I'm gonna slightly tweak it.

I'm gonna call it a pedicure rather than washing your feet because, and,

but people are very, um, people don't like generally other strangers touching

their feet or, you know, but I've had some beautiful opportunities.

Um, it was one time in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

And another time in Kyrgystan, where I lived for a few years.

And, um, I've just, and, and those were countries where people

didn't have great footwear.

So a bit like Jesus's, uh, time, you know, dodgy sandals and, you know,

muddy floors and all the rest of that.

But, and these women were just working so hard.

Nobody ever gave them any time or, you know, they never would

normally go for a pedicure.

It wasn't that, those kind of places, they didn't have that sort of money.

Um, you know, and, um, and it was just such a treat, you know, They were, they

were embarrassed at the start, but then were just like, Oh, this is really lovely.

Thank you.

You know, And, uh, you know, and, and it's more blessed to give

than it is to receive, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

, you know, I think they have a good time, but actually I was having a better time.

Um, you know, so, but I think it's trying to find those other ways, isn't it?

Like Tony said, it's not actually about us all, you know, grabbing

the towel around our waist.

Can I wash your feet?

Matt Edmundson: Knocking on your neighbor's door with

a bucket, uh, and a sponge.

No, it's not gonna work.

Claire Glare: Is it Maundy Thursday today?

Maundy Thursday.

That's a great one, isn't it?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

And I, and I think the question right, was, you know, don't ask people to do

things that you personally wouldn't do.

And I think everyone around you needs help.

And it's understanding where you can help and you know where you, where that shape

is or where that hole is that you can fill and be God's hands in that situation.

I think it's interesting.

So Matt's put here, he regularly works with those who need, um, Dionne's

put, she volunteers for domestic abuse charity, which is amazing.

And I think it's one of the, I just wanna give a shout out to my

Christian brothers and sisters here.

I'm gonna get the figures wrong.

Sharon's gonna shout at me, but you know what, I'm gonna do it anyway

and I'll face it to it later.

I think Sharon was telling me she was in listening to a guy

talk about the third sector.

So the charity sector here in the uk and the Christian

population apparently is about 2%.

Uh, in the UK it's not huge.

We would say, I, I would, you know, England in effect is a Christian country,

but those who would be professing, uh, active Christians who would some have some

kind of active faith rather than as being Christian by sort of a natural response

or, you know, heritage, it's about 2%.

So it's a small part of the population.

Uh, but Christians make up around, I think it was 60% of the workforce in

the third sector, in the charity sector.

Um, and so, you know, the church for all its faults and problems, Yeah.

Is just full of people who wanna serve and help.

Yeah.

Uh, and so big up to my Christian brothers and sisters.

If you do work in the third sector, it's amazing.

And I think we should keep doing that, uh, and keep serving.

Uh, and it's important, uh, it's the highest form of leadership and I think

it has a big impact on the nation.

Claire Glare: So, and, and it really does.

I think we really, the, the church does really punch above its weight in.

Um, metaphorically, but I think also there's that challenge to all of

us, to not kind of be Jesus or be the savior, be the one with all the

answers, but to actually ask people, Well actually how can I serve you?

And humility to think, Oh yeah, um, well I think that they might need

this, but actually let me talk to them and maybe they maybe might need that.

Um, or something else.

Or maybe I'm not the person who can help them, but either I can pray or I can give

financially or I can suggest to somebody else, Oh, you're really good at this.

Could you do this?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, we don't, you know, working together as the church is, is brilliant in that.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

And that's what we should be doing, right?

That's what we should be doing in, in community.

And so, ah, love the conversation.

It's, um, , this, this whole thing.

You know, why do we do it?

Why do we do the certain thing?

And Tony talked about it, you know, Jesus modeled it, didn't he?

This was his whole deal.

And in that song we sang all the vain things that show me most.

I sacrificed them to his blood.

In other words, let me lay down selfishness.

That's my sacrifice.

And let me take up, uh, the call of Christ, which is servanthood.

Mm-hmm..

I'm not, don't get me wrong, I'm not brilliant at this.

I am getting better.

Um, I am, you are.

I am getting better over the years.

Um, so yes.

Uh, servanthood.

So I think we will end that conversation there cuz looking at time, I, if we,

if I don't, we're just gonna carry on.

We'll say you just looking at time.

Don't.

Brilliant.

Uh, so servant leadership, I hope you got something out of this today.

One, can I get a little bit political?

Would that be right?

And without taking up too much time,

Claire Glare: You know me,

Matt Edmundson: Let's do it.

So if you don't know, uh, Claire was a labor counselor, so you've

definitely got political in your, in your time, haven't you?

One of the things that I saw just in Wellsby, who is the Archbishop

of Canterbury, who in theory is the senior, most senior person in the

Church of England, in the uk, in the world, I think in the world.

Is he the top bloke?

We've met him a couple of times.

Have you met him?

Met him a couple of times.

Uh, lovely chap.

Liz May, No, not Liz May, Liz Truss, uh, our shortest ever prime minister, uh,

who didn't have a particularly, uh, good time in office, let's put it that way.

It was fraud, uh, to say, to say the least.

So she resigns.

Justin writes on Twitter, just paying for Liz, uh, praying for Liz.

Right.

Good man.

Well, you should see the comments that came out of that.

Yeah.

There was a lot of hatred and anger towards that very comment.

Why would you pray for her?

She's caused all this chaos.

What about praying for those that are poor or needy and just absolutely having

a go at Justin because he said she served.

Therefore, I'm gonna pray.

And that's not his exact words.

You'll have to read what he said on Twitter, um, himself.

And it was quite, you know, it wasn't, I thought it was

lovely actually what he said.

And I thought, actually this is a really interesting point.

Regardless of your political affiliation, especially in times like this as

Christians, before you have an opinion about the party politics, you have to

be praying for that political leader.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

And you still have to remember, uh, that these people are serving,

maybe it's out of selfish ambition.

Claire Glare: Maybe it's family.

She's got teenage daughters who must be going to school and everyone's

going, Eh, look at your mom.

You know, all of that is tough in it and absolutely need to pray for our leaders.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

And be thankful for those that, um, are in public office.

So there we go.

Politics over.

I saw that and just thought, I can't believe people are responding like this.

It's a really odd way to respond, but still, it may be the mood

of the nation in some respects.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Um, so Claire, what's coming up next week?

I did tell you, I wanna know if you remembered.

Claire Glare: Whether I was listening . So Sharon is gonna be continuing in John.

We dunno what passage it is.

It it is, Sorry, that sounded like a swear word there.

I'm sorry about that.

I'm sure it'll be amazing cuz Sharon's fabulous.

And then, and Rachel Marshall is, Oh, am I meant to name, names, Surname?

I don't know.

Sure.

Uh, we put it on the screen, so.

Oh, right, okay.

Um, she's gonna be hosting with you or by herself?

Is she doing it or by herself?

Matt Edmundson: Uh, probably me, Uh, maybe somebody else.

We're looking at rotas at the moment, so I'm not entirely sure,

but we know that Rachel is on it.

So you'll be in safe hands.

Well, so yes.

Uh, the Power Twins, uh, Rach and Sharon next week.

Oh yes.

You're not gonna want to miss it.

So do join us.

If you haven't done this already, head over to the website.

Sign up for the newsletter, um, and we will email you, uh, every week with

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We didn't actually manage to get that podcast out this week, but it will be out.

Uh, next week as in starting tomorrow, uh, Monday we've got a guy called Brett Curry.

His story is gonna be released then Mark Mitchell, uh, from

the, uh, Mitchell Mazda fame.

So yes, he's gonna be on the podcast here.

Yeah, All amazing people.

So they're coming to What's the story.

All that information is on the website www.crowd.church.

I can put it on the screen.

There you go.

Or you can connect with us via social media.

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We will keep you updated on that.

All things get, Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, uh, things are gonna be getting better hopefully.

So.

Uh, yes.

Fantastic.

I'm just looking down the comments cuz Matt Crew normally reminds

me of stuff that I've forgotten.

Right.

He's awesome at that.

Uh, so I think I've told them, Matt, tell me if I've missed anything because,

uh, I don't think that I have right now.

Uh, so yeah, Dionne have a great week.

Everyone's in there saying, Have a great week.

Uh, so thank you everybody for joining us comments.

Claire, thank you for hosting with me.

It's been the first time you and I have hosted.

We should have to do it again sometime.

Fantastic.

All right folks, have a fantastic week.

God bless you, and we will see you next week.

Bye for now.