The Gift of Adversity: How to Turn Your Problems into Strength

Matt Edmundson: Welcome to this week's Crowd Church service.

We are a digital church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps

us live a more meaningful life.

We are a community, a space to explore the Christian faith, and a place

where you can contribute and grow.

Our service will last about an hour, and in a few seconds we will start

with a time of worship, after which you will meet our hosts for our service,

who will introduce today's guest.

After the talk, we head into Conversation Street, where we look at your stories

and questions that you've posted in the comments throughout the live stream.

I want to invite you to connect with us here at Crowd Church, and there are

a few ways that you can do just that.

Firstly, you can engage with Crowd from any device during our live

stream, and if you're up for it.

Why not invite a few friends over and experience the service together?

Church is all about connecting with God and connecting with others, and

one of the easiest ways for you to do that is to also join one of our

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more about the amazingness of Christ.

You can also subscribe to our podcast called What's It's the story where

we deep dive into stories of faith and courage from everyday people.

More information about all of these things that I've mentioned can

be found on our website at www.

crowd.

church or you can reach us on social media at crowdchurch.

If you're new to crowd or new to the Christian faith.

Faith and would like to know what your next steps to take are.

Why not?

Head over to our website, crowd Church slash Next for more details.

And now the moment you've been waiting for is here.

Our online church service starts.

Now, wow, good evening.

Welcome to Crowd Online Church.

My name is Matt Edmundson and beside me is absolutely no one.

Now, if you're a regular to Crowd, you know that there's normally

two of us side by side today.

But Anna, my Co host is MIA, so if anyone's seen Anna, just give her a

little nudge, tell her she's supposed to be here, she's not answering the

phone, so I hope everything's alright.

But that said, we will crack on.

How has your Sunday been?

Hopefully it's been good.

Let's see what we've got going on in the comments here.

You're going to have to join me and help me in the comments, folks, because

if I'm flying solo I'm going to, I'm going to need that conversation.

Do write, say hi in the comments.

Hi Miriam.

Miriam's in the comments.

Hey Miriam, how you doing?

Tobias, even in first time joining the live stream, but have been

enjoying the Alpha Series videos.

Tobias, great to have you, man.

Great that you're here with us.

Glad you've been enjoying the Alpha Course.

They're great, aren't they?

They're, not because we did them.

I just want to point that out.

They're great because they're great because it's Alpha.

Great to have you, Tobias.

Hi, Sarah.

Hi, Keith and Peter from Spain joining us again.

Great to have you.

Week number two, guys.

Welcome.

Great that you're joining us.

Whoop.

Here we go.

Yeah.

Mine has been really special.

According to Miriam, her Sunday has been good.

Just jot in the comments.

Let me know what you've been up to this Sunday.

It'd be great to hear about it.

I have been not that you really want to know, but I've been

busily installing a diesel heater.

For some strange reason, I decided that installing a diesel heater in my

kitchen would be a good Thing to do.

And test number one has worked pretty well.

I'm not gonna like pretty stoked but it may means my hands out.

You.

It's good job.

You can't smell my hands 'cause they do smell a little bit like diesel.

What have you guys been doing?

Enjoying your Sunday afternoon?

Hopefully Keith and Peter also enjoying the alpha course here.

You know what, this is great.

Let me just mention this.

If you are new to crowd.

And you're watching this.

So if you're new to the Christian faith, you want to know more about the Christian

faith, you've got questions, want to explore it, do check out the Alpha Course.

Now if you go to the website, I'm just going to check on

the URL here, it's crowd.

church, www.

crowd.

church.

org.

Let me put it up on the screen.

He says, I think it's that one there.

Yes, look at that.

If you go, who says I can't multitask.

If you go to crowd.

church and click on, there's various links to get to alpha, but the best way

to get to it, I think it's probably just to scroll to the bottom and the fourth

link down says alpha course online.

And then all the alpha series talks are there.

Things like, is there more to life than this?

Who is Jesus?

Why did Jesus die?

Why did we proclaim that as, Christians?

What's that all about?

How can I be sure of my faith?

What's prayer all about?

What's the Bible all about?

Does God guide us?

Who's the Holy Spirit?

Making the most life.

How do I resist evil?

Still one of the most popular talks.

And should we talk about our faith?

Excuse me.

Should we share it?

Should we do all of those things?

Does God heal today is a big question.

Anna, who is MIA, answers that question, and in fact, Anna's just texted me.

Shall we see what she has to say?

Put my glasses on.

Oh my gosh, so sorry, we went to Andy's Mums and I totally forgot I was on again.

Just seeing this now, okay, for those of you who know Anna, give

her some grief, because frankly, I think that's fair enough.

She's gone to her husband's, to her mother in law's and is her husband, by the way.

So hopefully they're all right over there.

But yes we'll crack on, shall we?

Today we have the talk by Dan Orange.

Dan is one of the regulars here at Crowding.

You can You can get your notepads ready.

This is actually his first talk, which I'm really excited about.

I've not heard it yet, and I'm really excited to hear it.

I've been friends with Dan for a very long time, so super keen

to hear what he's got to say.

Now, we have been working our way through the book of Acts, and for

you, if you're new, like to buy us with us, Acts is a book in the New

Testament, after the four Gospels.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, which chronicle the story of Jesus.

And then you have the Book of Acts which chronicles the sort

of the beginnings of the church.

What happened after Jesus goes to heaven?

What happens those sort of first few years in the church?

That's what we find out in the Book of Acts and we have been

busy working our way through it.

It has taken a very long time.

We were joking about this last week.

It seems to have taken us a bit of an age, but we are getting there, which is good.

But you know what?

Even though it has taken a long time, I have really positively enjoyed it.

It's been absolutely phenomenal.

I've got a lot out of this Alpha Series.

So Dan's going to do his talk on Alpha.

Write your questions, write your thoughts in the comments below.

And I will be back by myself because Anna's not joining me.

Matt, you're doing amazing.

You're doing amazing on your Todd.

Bless you.

Thanks, Miriam.

I will be back after the talk to do Conversation Street.

So yeah, do get right in the comments.

Do write your thoughts, write your questions, write your ideas.

Down.

It talks about 15 minutes I think, and then I will be back and we'll

carry on a conversation about it.

I'm just looking for the button on my notepad.

I think it's this one.

So I'm gonna push this.

Here's Dan I'll see you in just a few minutes.

Dan Orange: So on to Acts chapter 25.

Acts 25 · chapter mention

I thought I'd give a little recap of where things are up to in Paul's life so far.

So Paul has completed many journeys visiting the Scattered early church.

He's currently on his third missionary journey around the area of the

Mediterranean and Middle East, traveling miles by sea and foot.

Most scholars believe in his lifetime, he traveled and walked over 10, 000 miles.

So he sailed and walked 10, 000 miles, which is pretty impressive

even by today's standards.

He spent that time teaching, spending time with the new Christians,

the followers of the way that they were called at that time.

He's already been stoned.

He's been jailed.

Shaved his head for a vow, but seen many miracles and many come to hear

and know about this wonderful Jesus, the Messiah, the forgiver of sins.

He spends lots of time in the synagogues teaching, questioning and

preaching over many days each time.

He didn't just come along, preach and dash off, he dedicated time

and energy to the good news.

He's already written some of the letters that we have in the Bible, the letter

to the Galatians and Corinthians, and the letter to the Romans.

He's approximately 53 years old now, and he's under arrest again.

23 years after his dramatic conversion on the road to Damascus.

There's now a new Roman governor holding him.

Felix had held him for two years, hoping for a bribe to give him an excuse to

release him, and now Festus is in charge.

Do you feel that your life has ups and downs, Paul must have, been those

hard times, there, the times that, Often where God is teaching us, and

in Paul's case here, protecting him.

Let's read the first section, chapter 25.

Three days after arriving in the province, Festus went up from Caesarea

to Jerusalem, where the chief priests and the Jewish leaders appeared before him

and presented the charges against Paul.

They requested Festus as a favour to them, to have Paul transferred to

Jerusalem, for they were preparing an ambush to kill him along the way.

Festus answered, Paul is being held at Caesarea and I myself am going there soon.

Let some of your leaders come with me.

If the man has done anything wrong, they can press charges against him there.

After spending eight or ten days with them, Festus went down to Caesarea.

The next day he convened the court and ordered that Paul be brought before him.

Paul had been held in prison two years so far.

The Jewish leaders hadn't given up their petitions and desire to get rid of Paul.

I'd like to pick out two things here.

Paul has to be patient.

He's got no choice.

He simply can't do anything else, but he can choose how he is alone.

Paul was stuck under arrest and couldn't do much, but he could have just sat

and stewed in his own self pity.

But he didn't.

He spent his time listening to God, studying, and probably writing.

In his next prison situation he wrote Philippians, Ephesians, so I don't know.

He was just sat there doing nothing.

I know in the time that we live in, it's rare, there's nothing to do or look at.

I'm a dad, a husband, a business owner.

There's always something to do, and always something to distract.

Perhaps it's, Furtling on your phone, what a great word.

My father in law used this word a lot when he was alive.

What have you been doing, Roger?

That's my father in law.

Oh, just been furtling, reading an article on social media, playing online.

Playing online Scrabble, just furtling.

It can be good to keep our minds active but sometimes we need time

from distractions, time on our own, time where it's easier for God to

speak to us, less distractions.

Let's slow down, take five minutes when it's just you and God.

I'm speaking to you but also to myself.

Every time I'm alone with God I think, why don't I do more of this,

and I'm back in my life, and I've got to do this and got to do that.

Put some God space in your diary.

I have it now in my diary, it actually says God space.

Siri will pop up and say God space, just to encourage me to stop the

busyness of life taking over.

Jesus says in Luke's Gospel, by your patience possess your souls.

Let's not be so busy we miss out.

I need to learn more patience, more listening.

Second point is that these Jewish leaders had a grudge and they weren't giving up.

They'd already put pressure on the previous governor for two years and now

hassled the new guy for ten days straight.

Persistence is a good thing, working towards an outcome is a good thing, if

it's the right thing we're working for.

I'm from Liverpool and I love this city.

But in 1989 in Hillsborough, England, there was a horrific

disaster of a football match where 96 Liverpool supporters died.

The people of Liverpool, families and friends of those

who died, fought for justice.

There'd been incorrect allegations made, cover ups by the authorities,

and the people of Liverpool, especially Liverpool supporters, were put down

in the press and by the establishment.

But they persisted, and the truth was eventually told.

This took a long time, and a favourable outcome has now come.

They didn't give need to give.

They didn't give up.

We need to strive for what's right by keeping up, but by keeping

our focus on Him who is right, listening in the quiet times.

Jesus said this famously, come to me all you who labor and are heavy

laden and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I'm gentle and lowly in heart

and you will find rest for your souls.

For my yoke is easy.

And my burden is light.

Rest in him and take his yoke.

A little note from this is that we can give him our burdens, but we still

need to take a yoke, a light burden.

We don't walk around skipping with nothing to do, no work.

We are to do his work, whatever that may be for us where we're at.

We're not carrying around the things that are too heavy for our backs.

That's what we put on God's shoulders.

Not to do nothing, but we're to do his work.

This applied to Paul too, so we can see it's not always easy.

Jesus when he spoke those words was talking about all the oppressions

and laws that the people at the time had put on themselves.

We can put our own things on us that are not for us to bear.

Give your troubles, don't have things that aren't for you.

Some people can make it their life's work to take on the troubles of

others, the worries, disguising it as empathy or compassion.

We need to make sure we're just taking on what he's asked us to take on.

On to the next part of the story which reads like this.

When Paul came in, the Jews had come down from Jerusalem and stood around him.

They'd brought many serious charges against him, but

they could not prove them.

Then Paul made his defence.

I've done nothing wrong against the Jewish law, or against

the Temple, or against Caesar.

Fester, wishing to do the Jews a favour, said to Paul, Are you willing

to go up to Jerusalem and stand trial before me there on these charges?

Paul answered.

I'm now standing before Caesar's Court where I ought to be tried.

I've not done any wrong to the Jews, as you yourself know very well.

If however, I am guilty of doing anything disown death, I do not refuse to die.

But in the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true.

But if the charges brought against me by the, these Jews are not true, no one

has the right to hand me over to them.

I appeal to Caesar after Festus had confirmed with his counsel, he declared.

You have appealed to Caesar you will go.

Paul had to give God his troubles to trust him, but also to listen to God.

I believe God gave him wisdom on how to answer and when to answer.

He brought the law to his advantage so the Jewish leaders couldn't get to him.

It may have seemed that this just prolonged things, but God used that

time for Paul and for the church.

In our lives we need to bring our concerns and our trials

before God and ask for wisdom.

To ask for him to move mountains when necessary, but we need

to do what we can as well.

In my own life, my son is having a lot of trouble at school with his education,

and we're praying a lot about things, we're asking God for wisdom, asking

God to come to speak to us and to Luke.

And he has, and he's bringing his peace, and he's brought his peace

to him and to us, but we still have to push and strive in this world.

For the law says that Luke should have a good education

in the country that we live.

Me, my wife mainly, she's amazing, studying, petitioning, getting things

done, submitting formal complaints if we have to, works not done,

getting our counsel on board, etc.

But in all this, God has to be our focus still.

He's got to be the most important thing.

Otherwise, we can just go.

Off on a tangent and miss out, if God is our focus and we put our trust

in him, then we can look back at trials and problems and rest in the

decisions that were made, knowing that he has made, he has the best for us.

Romans 8, 28 which Paul wrote in a similar situation to he is now, and we

know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those

who are called according to his purpose.

Paul knew his rights on the earth.

He knew he was a Roman citizen and that this meant he should be tried in Rome.

This decision saved him.

It stopped that trip to Jerusalem where the leaders plotted to kill

him, but it also set off the chain of events that would cause him to be

incarcerated for another two years.

This is what I mean by knowing his word and resting in it.

In those two years.

Do you think Paul thought, why don't I stick to my guns, or why did I not just

go to Jerusalem, it probably would have been alright, it probably wouldn't have.

The last thing I want to mention is something that's not written here,

but it is implied, it's forgiveness.

I mentioned about fighting for the truth, for standing firm, in that we can

come up against others that are against us, others that can and do hurt us.

If we dwell on those things and deeds, they can occupy more than our noble goal.

The fight can become a grudge and can eat away at us.

This is where sometimes the hardest step has to happen.

We have to forgive those that have done wrong toward us.

Paul had plenty of people to forgive.

Those that stoned him, those that lied to put him away, those that

hurt and killed others around him.

I've had people that have hurt my son with their I have to forgive, and

it's hard when it's not even against you, it's against someone you love.

The people of Liverpool have seen justice for what was said about them

in the press and what I spoke about earlier, but without forgiveness

there can still just be hurt.

These grudges and strivings can bring anger, they can limit our

life, they can occupy time, they can come in the way of our destiny.

God can and does forgive.

We need to take his example and we need to forgive.

We need to give our fights to God.

Don't let your grudge be your life.

God in Jesus came and died that we may know freedom from sin

and that we can be forgiven.

All the things that we have done that are worthy of death have been wiped away.

We've been forgiven much.

It's for us to know that eternal forgiveness and ask for God's

grace to enable us to forgive.

Maybe we need to forgive those that are close to us.

Paul, in his letter to the Romans, is speaking to some of the church

members about others that have done wrong and been punished.

Then he says, let's not add more sorrow to them that they can bear by holding

back our forgiveness toward them.

I've just read the autobiography of Bono from U2, and it's

a really interesting book.

And he has a Interesting and tricky relationship with his dad, Bob Hewson.

Even after he died, he realised he needed to forgive him and

to ask for his forgiveness.

Here's the passage in his own words.

Easter 2002, Ali and I visited the little chapel in Eze France, a fisherman's church

with a hilltop view that has seen it all.

From the baroque pulpit, a lone arm sticks out of the wall holding the cross, and

a fishing boat hangs from the ceiling.

After the service, sometimes improved I find if you don't speak the language that

well, I returned to the pews on my own.

I sat there and apologised to my father, Bob Hewson.

I had forgiven him for his own crimes of passion but I'd never

asked for his forgiveness for mine.

I'll never know if it was related to me asking for this forgiveness

in that little chapel, but after my father died something changed.

I felt I got an extra couple of notes on my range.

I felt I was becoming a real tenor as opposed to a pretend one.

I could ring those high notes like a church bell as

I had never hit them before.

Makes no scientific sense of course, but I've heard it said that when someone

close dies, they leave you a kind of passing gift, some invisible will

where you inherit a special blessing.

Bob Hewson's final gift to me was to enlarge the one he gave me long before.

I was now a true tenor, no longer a baritone, I only thought he was a tenor.

I thought it was a really interesting example of what forgiveness

can do for us in real life.

Sometimes the burden we're holding on to is unforgiveness and it

does literally hold us back.

Perhaps we need to come to him and cry out for his forgiveness.

And get that extra octave in our lives.

Matt Edmundson: Welcome back.

Thank you, Dan, for that great talk.

Loved it.

Dan's first talk, ladies and gentlemen.

I wish I had a button on my desk at home, which gives a round of applause.

Don't have it here.

But it's great.

I loved it.

Loved it.

Loved it.

So Dan's tour, what did you think?

What did you take away from it?

Hello to you if you've joined us during the talk.

If you've joined us live, my name is Matt Edmundson.

I'm the pastor here at Crowd Church, just in case you want to know, and normally

there would be somebody sat beside me.

We would normally be co hosting the online church, but Anna she just,

let's just put it, she just forgot.

She just forgot she was hosting.

It totally slipped her mind, as these things do.

And so she went and visited a mother in law.

Which is, probably one of those God things really.

But needless to say, I will be able to reminder of this every week for

the next probably year or two really.

So it's not a total loss.

But yeah, if you've just joined us, welcome to Online Church.

That was Dan speaking Keith and Peter.

Brilliant talk, Dan.

Very thought provoking.

Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, I loved it.

We're going to get into it.

What did you like about it?

Some of the thought provoking things.

We have Pastor Alexander in from the Congo on Facebook joining

us all the way from the Congo.

I love technology.

So people from Spain, people from the Congo, people from the

UK, just all over the world.

Welcome to you.

Great that you're with us Pastor Alexander.

I hope you guys are doing well.

If you haven't heard yet Pastor Alexander's talk on, I say talk, his

podcast we recorded on what's the story.

So what's the story?

If you don't know.

It's a podcast where either me or Anna when she turns up, you

can see where this is going.

And Sadaf we get guests onto the show and we just interview them about their story.

And Pastor Alexander was over from the Congo, which was amazing.

And so I got a chance to sit down with him for about an hour and

just listen to his story about.

How I became a Christian, what it's like running a church in the middle

of a war zone, the hospital that's being built over there, some amazing

stuff, real, really great stuff.

And so if you haven't done so already, check it out.

You can find out more information on the website which I'll put on the screen.

Just click the podcast link or if you just want to go straight to it,

just type in whatsthestorypodcast.

com and that will take you to that specific section of the site.

Now what I'm going to do, I'm going to press my button there, in the

comments I have added a temporary link.

So given that I'm flying solo and we've never tried this before.

Let me just point out to you what's going on with that link and then

we'll get into Conversation Street.

If you are so inclined, if you click that link it's a temporary

link, it only lasts about an hour.

Bless you BadgerDragons is writing some really nice stuff in the comments.

If you click that link, it will take you to a page where you can copy a

URL, which will actually get you to dial into our live stream, right?

Now, bear in mind, it's going to ask you To approve your microphone

and to approve your video.

But if you do that, the computer here will ring and you will come up on my computer

and I can add you to The live stream.

That's in theory how it goes.

I have done this with other podcasts that we do and so I do know the technology

works, we've just never done it on crowd.

If you want to join me, if you've got something you want to share, if you've

got a question you want to pose, if you've got an idea you want to talk about

from Dan's talk, we would we'll try it.

We'll see how it goes.

I don't know how well it's going to work.

I genuinely don't.

I don't even know if any of you are actually that interested in dialing in.

But the link is in the comments if you want to join us.

Do so Dan's talk, what did you think of his talk?

I loved it.

One of the things that's been coming out of the Book of Acts is this sort of

theme and this theme is, It's very much a case of the Holy Spirit turns up, Jesus

goes, the Holy Spirit turns up and he starts doing some amazing things, right?

So as a Christian, we believe the Trinity exists, that God is three in

one, that he's God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The gospels were all about God, the Son and Acts is really all

about the God, the Holy Spirit telling everybody about God the Son.

And what we see happening a lot.

As we see the Holy Spirit coming down, there have been some quite significant

encounters with the Holy Spirit.

People's lives change.

And what happens is the Holy Spirit empowers ordinary people

to do extraordinary things.

Sometimes that's working a miracle, sometimes that's just telling the

story, sometimes that's just actually surviving and living, to be fair.

And so the Holy Spirit comes down and he enables and empowers people.

He, in effect, gives them a mission.

He gives them a plan.

He gives them a purpose, a reason to live.

And what we see and what we saw today in Dan's talk was, although there is

a divine call, although there is this sort of divine plan that God gives

us, doesn't always mean it's easy.

And life can be complex and hard, but in, because we I suppose in our

modern day thinking, we're like if God's real and God's going to give

me a plan to do, surely he's going to make it easy for me to do it.

And life will be fun and a ball of laughter along the way.

And apparently there's not quite how it turns out, but God is with

us throughout the whole thing.

And in the complexity and in the nuances and in the difficulties

in we learn to trust him.

We learn to understand what it is that God's actually doing

in the midst of everything.

And we see this over and over again in the book of Acts.

It's this sort of constant theme, which I find quite staggering.

It's probably one of my biggest takeaways is actually God does amazing

things, but it doesn't mean that my life is going to be amazingly

easy, but I do get to make a choice.

I get to determine whether I keep going after God or whether I shrink back.

And so that seems to be the sort of the main theme, the main feel,

or one of them that we take from the, there are obviously others.

So that said, Dan then obviously talked, I loved his, this phrase that he used.

I wrote it down here, how he talked about the noble goal.

And now we have this noble goal, this sort of noble goal from God, this

calling, this plan, this thing to do this.

Sense of purpose, sense of mission.

I love that phrase, noble goal, totally stealing it, Dan, not

going to lie, thought it was great.

What is your noble goal, do you think?

Do you have a noble goal?

What do you think God's saying about that?

What's a noble goal for you?

And one of the things that happened then is, Dan then immediately starts

talking about forgiveness and how the pursuit of a noble goal, and for him,

The noble goal he was talking about was the stuff with Luke, his son, and trying

to sort out with the educational system here in the UK, how to fix something

that's quite broken for them, right?

And God love them.

They've been through it Luke, Dan and Lisa, just a really incredible

story really, but it's, and it's not over, so do pray for them.

But in the midst of that, so his noble goal is obviously to get this

educational thing for his son sorted out to fight for that to do his thing.

I loved his comment about how his yoke is easy and his burden is

light, we come to God and we give him his things, but it doesn't mean

we don't have a yoke to pick up.

It doesn't mean we've not got anything to do that.

We just float around.

I think it was a phrase he used.

I thought it was great, pondering around, floating around.

And yeah, I thought the noble goal is then linked to forgiveness.

The thing that we have to do is linked to forgiveness.

And one of the comments here that Miriam wrote, sometimes I don't know

how to forgive friends when they do the same things over and over again,

but God will be with me, so it's okay.

It's a really powerful thing, isn't it?

And we've talked a lot on Crowd about forgiveness.

We've had quite a few talks about it from Sharon, my wife, she's

done a few talks on forgiveness.

We had one from Jenny Taylor.

She talked about forgiveness, remarkable story.

She's had to forgive a lot.

And they're definitely worth checking out if you do struggle with the

topic of forgiveness do go dig those out there in the archives.

Again, just head over to the website, crowd church, the links at the bottom.

You can go to the website and search for Jenny Taylor, search for

forgiveness and the talks will come up and go into it in an awful lot more

detail because I think Dan's right.

I think sometimes we pursue these noble goals these things that seem righteous,

these things that seem good and we can get quite angry in the process.

And we can get quite bitter.

I think Dan said don't let your grudge become your life.

That's an amazing quote, that, isn't it?

Don't let your grudge become your life.

So let's think about that, right?

If we have a noble goal, whatever that is at the moment, something

that we're fighting for, something that we're striving for, something

that we're praying for, something that we're believing God for.

If we have a noble goal, is there an element of anger or bitterness or

resentment or something that could creep in and derail you in the pursuit of that?

It's a powerful question, isn't it?

And so then thinking that through and what that means and analyzing that, journaling

about it, God, what are you saying here?

I think is a, is really powerful because It can you can be trying

to do the right thing, but we can be doing it in the wrong way.

And unforgiveness, unfortunately, is one of those things that is trying to

do the right thing in the wrong way.

Okay, Keith and Peter, we've had mega problems.

Okay, not just problems, but mega problems in our church here in

Spain, causing anger and pain.

But we have all forgiven and moved on and think we're all stronger for it.

On Facebook there.

In fact, let me put that on there.

I can do this, can't I?

You can all read it as well.

There we go.

In fact, let me let me do that.

There we go.

'cause Anna's not here.

So yeah, so there's what Keith and Peter have said, we've had mega

problems in our church here in Spain, interestingly, isn't it?

If you've been around church for a while.

If you've been a Christian for a while, when we read about Paul's

story, his grief came from the Romans.

Felix Festus, throwing him in jail, trying to get bribes, trying to

get money, trying to win favour.

The Romans weren't doing him any solids.

But why, the Romans were the Romans, why would they, this is the

way that they thought about life.

What's interesting is a lot of what we read, a lot of the grief that Paul

was experiencing was from his own people, it was from the Jewish people.

Now that's not to, obviously, blame the Jews because I think that's just wrong.

But what tends to happen is the most hurt comes from people that we know, it comes

from our tribe, it comes from those around us, those that we're supposed to, press

into and those that we're supposed to trust and love and all that sort of stuff.

And it tends to be our tribe, though, our community that can

cause the most pain, the most harm.

And church is a classic example of this, I think.

It's one of those where those who are hurting, those who are wounded,

even those who are just living life, the church can actually

cause more problems than it solves.

And let's be real, I'm a big fan of the church.

I'm a big believer in the local church, especially, and I'm a big believer in

church being the hope of the world.

And I think church is marvelous and wonderful.

And I've 30 years while we do crowd, right?

But let me tell you, church is not perfect.

Because it's made up of imperfect people.

And actually, in church, we tend to find a lot of broken people as well.

And broken people and hurt people can hurt.

And it's just the way it works, unfortunately.

And so I tend to find if I go back throughout my own life, and Keith and

Peter, I don't know if you're, if this is what happened, I'm not saying this

will happen with your church at all.

But I'm just saying for me, the most hurt that I've experienced has come

from People in my tribe has come from Christians, close friends who are

Christians from church Christians.

And the, in some respects, they're the hardest people to forgive,

because they should know better.

And this was my thinking for a little while.

And they read the same Bible I do, they pray to the same God that I pray to you.

So how do they see things so differently?

How do they think this behavior is okay?

And of course, in that I have to go to God and go, maybe my behavior is not okay,

I have to be open to that possibility, which is, humbling to say the least.

And so yeah, how do you do that?

How do you deal with that?

And I think you can only deal with that through the grace of God.

And walking in the light of that and that forgiveness and understanding

actually that is a, that is what happens in church sometimes.

And I see a lot of people deconstructing faith actually as

a result of that, that they've got hurt from the church in some way.

And so walk away from their faith, which I heard a quote the other

day, which I thought was really fascinating on this whole thing.

They said that, walking away from church because of the way some Christians

behaved is like, You decide to stop supporting your football team because of

the way some of the supporters behaved.

Doesn't make sense, right?

I'm a big Liverpool Football Club fan because why would I not be?

But I am a big Liverpool Football Club fan, but I'm not a big

fan of all the supporters.

They do some insane things and and quite rightly have been

punished as a result of it.

But it doesn't mean I stop supporting Liverpool Football Club.

And the church is the same, it's got broken people in it

who do some insane things.

But it doesn't mean that the church actually That I should walk away from

that or that I should walk away from God.

It just does not make sense to me in any way, shape or form.

So hopefully that's helpful to somebody.

And thank you, Keith and Peter, for sharing about the problems

with your church in Spain, praying that it works out.

It's great that you've moved on great that you're stronger for it.

And it's one of those things I find in those periods.

I don't know about you guys, but for me, I come through it more and more.

aware of my own need of forgiveness just, and I'm very grateful

for God's forgiveness for me.

So I come through these things more aware of that and the grace

of God and the graciousness of God.

But I also sit down and try and understand, what can I learn

from what I've been through?

So if I go back to your question, Miriam, earlier about I don't know

how to forgive friends when they do the same things over and over again.

And again, friends, your tribe, right?

The people close to you, the people who should know better, surely, doing

the same things over and over again.

I think we just have to, but I think also at the same time, it makes

sense to put in place boundaries.

And boundaries aren't a bad thing.

If people are constantly hurting us, boundaries can actually

be quite a helpful thing.

It's one of those things where, there's a great book.

If you've not read it, there's a great book by Henry, oh, what's his name?

It'll come back to me.

It's actually called Boundaries by Henry, oh, come on, brain work.

Anyway, if you Google boundaries The book, it will come up, great book on boundaries

actually, super helpful, Christian guy, and a psychologist, very helpful to

understand about this idea of boundaries and what we should do and shouldn't

do where boundaries are concerned.

But like you say Miriam, God's with us, and so we just have to keep giving.

70 times 7, right?

Just keep going for it.

But I do have to be aware that I'm not putting myself in the same position

with them over and over again.

It, it makes a lot of sense.

So Keith and Peter here, because of the problems we encountered, we have

taken on the warden's job to try and bring change and bring us together.

See, I love that.

That is so cool because fundamentally, I think there are two responses.

It's interesting how we've gotten to this whole conversation about

church, but I think fundamentally there are two responses when

it comes to problems in church.

Response number one is to go, I'm out.

I've had enough.

I don't want to be here.

This is not what I signed up for.

And sometimes that's the right response.

But I often wonder if it's the easy response to walk away, to

just to, go and sit, I'm out.

The other response, what you guys have done, which I absolutely love is to go.

How can I make a difference now?

How can I get involved?

How can I help?

And so I remember we were talking about this yesterday, actually, my wife and

I are sorting through some Sharon, I say I, I can't really take that much

of the credit if I'm honest with you.

Sharon is, she is sorting out, hi Nicola, oops, sorry, just woke up.

Hopefully not from me or Dan's talk, just the way it is.

But yeah, Sharon, my wife, is sorting out the attic she's sorting out the

loft at her house, and that means all kinds of stuff is coming down.

And one of the boxes I had to sort through is, we call them memory boxes

in our house and it's just full of stuff that contains some kind of

memories and one of those memories was a t shirt and on that t shirt is was

a symbol of a hawk and it said Hawks.

And Hawks was was a kid's kind of church that we did.

My the problem was my kids were going to church every Sunday, which I wanted

them to do, but they weren't engaging.

They're about, about 10, 11, somewhere around there.

And they found church really boring.

So there's a problem.

There's a disconnect there.

And there, so I can look at the problem, I can go I just need to go

find a church where they can engage.

Or I can go what can I do to make a difference?

Which is what we did.

And so we set up Hawks, which was like a cross between, it was a cross between

army cadets and scouts and boys church and we did church for boys called Hawks

and Zoya and the other guys did something called Cookies, which was for the girls.

And honestly we dress them up in camouflage, give them Hawks t shirts,

rang them, we ran them ragged.

But what happened was they absolutely love church.

And even now people, and we're talking this was 10, 12 years ago, people

every now and again will still mention it, still had an impact on them.

And I guess the reason I'm saying this is not because I

think you need to set up Hawks.

The reason I'm saying this is because I love what Keith and Peter did here.

It's because of the problems, let's take on some roles here.

And then let's bring change that's going to bring us together.

Super powerful.

Love that attitude.

How can I solve the problem versus, and how can I get involved, rather than how

can I just either leave or complain?

Henry Cloud!

God bless you, Nicola.

That's it, the book by Boundaries Henry Cloud do check out that by Dr.

Henry Cloud.

That's the book.

Nicola, you're a legend for sorting that out.

So yeah, do check that out.

So hopefully Miriam, that's also helped on forgiving of your friends.

Like I say, if you want to know more, do check out the talks on forgiveness.

There's an awful lot more in there.

So yes, very good.

So I think what I'm gonna do is, I'm just gonna go through my notes.

I'm gonna put my glasses on because I can't actually see what I've written

without them because I'm an old man now.

Excuse me, I'll have a little drink.

Like I say, for those of you just joining us, my name is Matt, I'm

part of the team here at Crowd.

And like I say, normally there is another person with us, but Anna is not

here today, simply because she forgot.

I went to her mother in law's instead.

So if you see her, give her grief, because frankly, I think you can.

So just going through my notes here.

This idea that Dan, this phrase that Dan used, partnership, I thought was

interesting, seeing life as a partnership with God versus seeing life as a slot

machine with God, that if I just pull the right levers in the right order,

I'm going to get the right outcome, I'm going to hit the three cherries

or whatever it is and get my jackpot.

But rather seeing it more as a relationship, seeing it as a partnership,

Seeing it as something you do together, irrespective of whether life is,

whether you're mountain high or valley low, God is still king, isn't he?

He's still on the throne.

That was a really interesting phrase.

And I don't know how you view God.

I don't know how you see him, whether you are in church, whether you're enjoying

church, when you're enjoying your relationship with God, whether you talk

to him on a daily basis or whether you've never actually talked to him before.

Nicholas says, let me put this in the comments.

Or whether, like Nicola, you try and be a legend.

She is an absolute legend.

It's interesting how you view God.

Someone who is with you, someone who is a partner in life with you,

someone who is committed to you.

Versus someone who is absent, maybe, or a God that doesn't care.

Or a God that's not actually that interested in what's going on.

And I think the whole partnership thing, just throws a really, it's just

something worth thinking about actually.

Yeah how's that going?

How's the relationship with God going?

I'm just going to scroll through the comments here.

If there's any other questions or any other thoughts that you've got, please

fire them in the comments now, and I'll do my level best to try and answer them.

It's been really interesting doing this solo actually.

Normally when I do these kind of things like podcasts, normally

there's always people with me.

So doing it solo is always interesting.

So I actually quite enjoy the challenge if I'm honest with you.

What's Nicola put here?

I like not using God as a slot machine, but as someone who wants to walk with you.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm with you.

It's I think it's easy to fall into the default to forget God exists

until you need a prayer answered.

Rather than seeing him who wants to someone who wants to walk with you on a

daily basis who is constantly with you and understanding what that looks like

and feels like and seems can be quite tricky because I don't know about you,

for me, I can, I've run my own company, I run this church, but also I've got my

own business, we have two businesses, which I won't bore you with, Because it's

definitely not a sales pitch, just saying.

But I've got two companies.

It can take a lot to run them, right?

And you can get your head down.

And you just, you, my wife will often call me and go, do you realize what time it is?

And I'll have been doing some and I've got in the zone, in the flow, as they call it.

And eight hours can go by in a blink of an eye for me, just can.

And I'm just like, I get my head up and go, wow, that was incredible.

Where did that time go?

But not once during that time would I have thought about God, would I have

gone, God, what are you saying here?

Have you got any thoughts about this?

And actually just, I find that if I can somehow break myself from the

drive that is in me and just take a few seconds every now and again,

just to go, God, What's going on?

Or, what do you think?

Or, thanks for being with me, or just super grateful for this job, or super

grateful for this client, or just acknowledging that God is there makes

a massive difference when I do it.

Question, of course, is why do I not do it all the time?

If I knew the answer to that, I would let you know, write a book about it,

make a fortune, I'm not going to lie.

But yeah.

Oh, bless you.

You have certainly raised the challenge, well done.

Thank you, Keith and Pete, I really appreciate that.

So let me tell you what is coming up next week, because normally I

would talk about this beforehand with whoever I'm hosting with, but

of course, not with Anna right now.

Let's have a look.

So next week, we are carrying on our conversation in acts.

We have, oh, here we go.

Yes.

I'm hosting again.

Yes.

Three in a row.

Good skills.

So you've got me again next week, hopefully with John Harding, who's

one of the pastors of the church here.

What a legend that guy is.

He's just moved house.

So hopefully he won't have too much dust on his face and all will be good.

And when he's not, oh I love that.

So well done Nicola.

When he's not walking with you, he's often carrying you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Get that.

That's like that poem isn't it?

Footprints in the sand.

So yeah, John and I will be back next week to host.

We have got Dave Connolly speaking about Acts 25.

We're carrying on with Acts 25.

So yeah, we've got Dave Connolly, just to let you know what's

coming up in the weeks to follow.

We've got Pete Farrington sharing with us, Will Sopwith love, Will Sopwith.

And then in one, two, three, four weeks time, we've got John Harding rounding

off our story and journey through Acts.

So yeah, four weeks to go until we finish Acts.

John's going to be rounding that off, which would be great.

And then, like I said, in the last week, next.

The next series we're kicking off is Becoming Whole.

It's all about becoming whole, which I'm really looking forward to.

I've been really enjoying doing the study on this and getting

all the teaching notes prepped.

Me and Sadaf, we've been talking a lot about it, which has been great.

Yeah, we've got that series coming up, Becoming Whole, so

do make sure you stay with us.

And I'll just close out the Acts series.

Hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have.

If you've caught the tail end of it and you've just joined us,

a bit like Tobias did earlier.

Rewind.

They're all online.

You know what we have?

I'm always amazed, actually, how many people contact me and just say, Oh,

Matt, I was listening to the podcast.

Loved it, decided to go back to episode one.

And we're like 300, however many episodes into them or whatever.

I don't know what the exact number is.

And they just work through it one at a time.

I'm like, wow, that takes some dedication, but God bless you.

If that's you.

That's incredible, really.

So yes, make sure you do subscribe to the Crowd channel wherever you get it

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just helps to ensure you don't miss anything that's going on.

Thank you so much for joining us today, thank you for all the comments and all

your thoughts, thank you for bearing with me, and yeah, welcome to Crowd Church,

where things, if technology don't always work out, the people might not always

do what they're supposed to as well.

Oh, I tell you what you can do just write in the comments as we close.

If you've got like the perfect one liner for Anna.

Kettle would love to hear it because I'm definitely going to be thinking

of a few just when I see it.

In forgiveness, obviously, there's, there's not a forgiveness issue

given what we're talking about, but there is a banter issue and taking

the opportunity to create banter.

Oh, bless you guys.

Listen, have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world, whether you're

in Spain, whether you're in the Congo, whether you're in the UK

or wherever you are in the world.

Thank you so much for joining me.

Have a fantastic week wherever you are.

I will see you with John next week along with Dave Connolly.

God bless you.

Bye for now.

Have a great week.

Thank you so much for joining us here on Crowd Church.

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Bye for now.