Standing on the Truth of God's Word

Matt Edmundson: Welcome to this week's Crowd Church service.

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And now the moment you've been waiting for is here.

Our online church service starts.

Good evening and welcome to Online Church.

Beside me in a, with a very different background is the beautiful John Harding.

John, how are we doing this evening?

I'm doing

John Harding: very well, thank you, Matt, and it's always a pleasure to be able

to connect into Crowd and to chat to you and join with all the lovely Crowd

people, so good evening to you all.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, good evening, welcome.

Crowd is an online church.

If you're not sure or not been here before for your first time

with us, then welcome to you.

Great to have you.

Do say hi in the comments, let us know where you're watching from.

Be great to chat.

Be great to hear from you.

Now, it is fair to say, John, the last few months we have been doing.

The live stream from the studio, but alas, we are not doing that today for

for reasons which will probably become obvious the more people get to know you, I

John Harding: would have thought.

Indeed, we are as a family just in some temporary accommodation right in the

shadow of the Anfield Stadium whilst our house is having major building works.

So yeah, we've squashed into a little room.

I've got a mural on the wall of Virgil van Dijk and, I've got the dog sat on the left

of me, I've got my youngest lad sat on the right of me, so they're all engaged with

Crowd Church this evening in that way.

So yes, I'm not in the studio and I'm not in my usual sort of office where

I normally connect into, so hopefully everyone can forgive me for the chaotic

Matt Edmundson: background.

I'm sure and it's not usual to actually have a Virgil van Dijk

painting behind you either.

It's probably fair to say.

John Harding: No, this is the Virgil room, and if each room has got a

different mural on the wall, , they only close out the sort of supporters

that come the, that come, yeah.

Yeah.

To the game

Matt Edmundson: and the Airbnb.

Yeah.

And can you hear the stadium from where you areye?

Yes.

John Harding: Almost.

You could certainly like, wander down and get the sort of match day vibes.

So yeah, but we won't be here for too long, so those of you who are praying

people, pray that my electrician and plumber and builder all keep

cracking on with the work so we can get into our place in the not

Matt Edmundson: too distant future.

Yeah, or keep doing what they should be doing no, it's good that you're with us.

Now, welcome to those in the comments, I'm just looking down the comments

here, we've got Ashton in the comments.

Hi Ashton, hi Andy.

Andy's with us, Tobias is with us.

Hey Tobias, how are you guys doing?

Great to have you along with us.

Now, today we have Dave Conley chatting to us carrying on our journey through

the book of Acts and just short.

I was, John and I was talking about, it's a bit of a short talk, so

we're going to get straight into it.

And then John and I will be back for Conversation Street afterwards.

If you don't know the Book of Acts, we've been working our way through it.

It is a brand new, I say brand new series, it's entirely wrong.

It's not brand new at all.

We've been doing it for an inordinately long amount of time,

it feels we've been going through Acts, I think, since it was written.

It's probably the, it's the right thing to say but we are

coming to the end of it now.

The last few weeks, Dave's starting to bring it all in for us, we've got

Peter, oh, the guys are in from Spain.

How are you doing guys from Spain?

Warm welcome to you.

Great to have you.

I just noticed in that in the comments they normally join us on Facebook.

You've thrown me cause you're on YouTube tonight, it seems warm welcome to you.

But yes, Dave, he's going to be carrying on the journey through the Book of Acts.

The Acts is the Acts of the Apostles, the book is called, isn't it?

It's the official title, John, and it is, although

John Harding: I prefer to call it the Acts of the Holy Spirit, if you

want to be pedantic about it, because it's about the power of the Spirit

at work through the Apostles, you

Matt Edmundson: know.

Yeah, absolutely.

So it is.

And so we are working our way through that.

And then yeah, we will be back for Conversation Street.

So if you've got any questions, any thoughts, any comments.

Let's write them in the comments below, whatever platform you're watching this on.

If you're watching it live, if you're watching on YouTube, you

can write in the YouTube comments.

If you're watching on Facebook, you can write it in the Facebook

comments and we will see them.

John Harding: Questions, comments, reflections.

We'd love to engage with you, interact.

And I really encourage you, Dave Connolly is an absolute a legend, a man

of maximum integrity who really walks the walk, a real pastor to pastors.

So I'm looking forward to pressing into what Dave has to say.

So I'd really encourage everyone to just really have an open heart

to what Dave brings this evening.

Matt Edmundson: Absolutely.

Yep.

So we're going to get into that right now.

Like I say, John will be back.

John and I'll be back after this.

We'll see you in a few minutes.

Welcome,

Dave Connolly: lovely to be with you today.

Today we're going to be looking at Acts chapter 25, starting at verse 13.

Acts 25 · chapter mention

This portion of Scripture is entitled Paul before Agrippa.

It's a significant portion of Scripture we're going to look at today.

And we're just going to reference it.

I'd like to encourage you to take the time to read it for yourselves.

I just want to use my time to draw out some highlights.

Highlights that I believe can be of help to us.

We read that Paul is still in custody.

Paul makes his defense with Festus, a Roman official.

Festus goes into Jerusalem and he met with the chief priests

and the leading men of the Jews.

They were complaining to him about.

Paul and all that Paul had said and done.

They said it'd be best if Paul was brought to Jerusalem to stand trial because after

all, he'd violated their religious laws.

They were actually trying to set up an assassination attempt on Paul's life.

It's at this time Paul appeals.

to Caesar.

A little while later, King Agrippa and his sister Benice arrive and they're very

interested in what's been taking place.

They decide to see for themselves.

They bring Paul before them.

Paul must have been naturally fearful at this time.

Surely, he was thinking, What's going to happen to me?

Will God protect me again?

What happens if I'm found guilty?

I'm sure these were just a few of the questions that were swirling

round his mind at this time.

It must have been challenging for him, with all that was going on,

to put his trust in God's plan, to lay down his own anxiousness.

and Trust Jesus.

Have you noticed that when we're called to take faith steps, it's

not always easy to take those steps?

Choice is always required.

My friends, we may never be in Paul's exact situation or circumstance.

Only God knows that.

But here is what I do know.

We often feel on trial.

We often feel like we're being judged by others.

We feel misunderstood.

We feel persecuted.

When we take a stand for Jesus, we can feel like an outcast.

We feel isolated.

When we stand for the truth of God's Word over cultural ideology,

we are put down often, or mocked.

As I read through this story, I asked myself, What can I learn from Paul and the

way he handled himself in these verses?

What stood out was not to rush to defend myself, do what is right and

trust God with the consequences.

And we see that referenced in verses 1 to 12.

Paul did not put up an elaborate defence of why he was innocent.

He was honest and truthful.

But he didn't go on.

And on.

Will you read with me verse 10 and 12?

Paul answered, I am now standing before Caesar's court, where I ought to be tried.

I have not done any wrong to the Jews.

As you very well know, if, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving

death, I do not refuse to die.

But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, No one

has the right to hand me over to them.

I appeal to Caesar.

Paul says, if he's guilty, he would accept the consequences.

Paul did not waver in his words or his actions.

He stood in confidence because he trusted in the plan of God.

There is so much to learn from the life of Paul.

We can be confident in our stand for Jesus because it's Jesus we answer to.

Let's be clear on what we're standing for in verse 19.

It says this, They had some points of dispute with him, that's Paul, about

their own religion and about a dead man named Jesus, who Paul claimed to be alive.

When King Agrippa and Bernice's sister came there, there was no wondering

about what Paul was standing for.

They knew clearly, he was standing for Jesus.

He was not standing against their government.

He was not standing against their leadership.

He was standing for Jesus and he had said this with great clarity.

I'm sure you know that we are known for the things we stand

for and for what we're against.

When we take a stand for Jesus, do it with clarity.

It's my experience that when we stand well, It leads to open doors to share

Jesus, open doors to share our story of Jesus and how he has impacted our lives.

It did for Paul and we read that in chapter 6 verses 12 to 32.

My question for us today is, will we rise up to the challenge of taking a stand?

That means to take a stand with confidence, clarity.

Respect, honour, boldness, gentleness, kindness, love.

We will truly be shocked about how many doors open when we take a stand for Jesus.

Even though people will disagree passionately with us, there

is something about someone who takes a stand with these values.

Don't expect to be loved by everyone.

Jesus wasn't, so why should we?

But be true to Jesus and stand in his redeeming love.

Today, more than any time in history, God's people need to

take a stand on God's word.

And to take a stand in the power and the love of Jesus.

My prayer is that we would be prepared to rise to the challenge.

We are called to take a stand amongst all those people where God has placed us.

To take a stand with the message of Jesus, in the love of Jesus.

My friends, take your stand, wherever it is that God has placed you, with whom,

God has placed you and see the doors open for you to share his amazing love.

God bless you.

Matt Edmundson: Welcome back.

The thing about Dave is, John, he packs so much in such a short space of time.

Yeah.

There's so much to cover, so much to get on with.

John Harding: It's the challenge, isn't it?

It's not just a talk.

Think about if you really put that into practice.

Yeah, I'm just sad that I think it's a Dave Connolly ism, isn't it?

He says, if you can't say, amen, say, ouch.

Challenging, isn't it?

In today's world, in today's culture to have that, that call to us

Matt Edmundson: as well.

Yeah, no, it is.

It is.

There's a few things that he said, though, that I want to unpack a little

bit for those that might not be familiar, maybe with some of the terminology.

He uses this phrase, he used the phrase towards the end, didn't he,

we need to stand on God's word.

Just unpack that for us a little bit, John.

What does Dave mean, or what do we mean in church when we say,

take a stand on God's word?

I think

John Harding: the one thing you won't find in your Bible is your opinion.

Matt Edmundson: Such a good phrase, love that yeah.

John Harding: I've got to come to it recognising, I would just say to people,

you're either going to reject it, or you've got to believe it is what it

says of itself, which is revelation from the heart and mind of God.

And so when Dave says take a stand on God's word, you hear people

giving all sorts of perspectives, which they're entitled to.

All sorts of opinions, which they're entitled to but not all opinions are

equal and not all perspectives are equal.

I'm trying to measure people's opinions and perspectives against God's word, which

I believe is true in a unique way, in a way that does not have any other equal.

And I try to do that with myself and my own opinions and perspectives.

So when Dave says, stand on God's word, what he's saying is.

People over here may be telling me this.

People over there may be telling me that.

I'm measuring it against what God's Word says.

Because that is truth.

That is truth.

That is the foundation.

That's why we can stand on it.

Jesus himself tells a little parable, Wise and Foolish Builders.

Whoever hears my words and puts my words into practice is a wise

builder, their house will not be shaken in the storms of life.

So we're standing on a foundation that's firm as opposed to a sinking

foundation when it's based on our own opinions and whims and perspectives.

Matt Edmundson: Very good.

Miriam's put here in the comments it doesn't mean to stand,

literally stand on the Bible.

She's put with a crying emoji.

In fact, I can put this on the screen.

I think, there we go.

It doesn't mean stand on a Bible, but to rise up when you read it

and make your own decision about if you want God in your life or not.

Which is, I think it's interesting terminology, isn't it?

And it is interesting how, yes, we can think, you hear things like standing

on God's word or stand on the Bible.

You literally stand on no, we're taking a stand on the basis of that.

And you're choosing to believe it.

As your ultimate source of truth, aren't you?

And Dave took that

John Harding: one step further, which is to put that into a voice.

And I think that we live in a very pluralistic word.

You do.

You I'll do me, you do your truth.

I'll do my truth.

And so it has become really quite unpopular.

The idea that you would say, I'm sorry, I don't agree with you.

I think you're wrong because what you're saying is different to God's word.

And in one sense, like I get that, but in another sense particularly because

Dave's speaking as a leader and a prophetic voice, I do agree with him.

I think we're called to make a stand in society saying,

we don't think that's right.

Yeah.

We don't, this is how the world should be.

Yeah, and call people into that.

Unfortunately, when you do you, yeah, when you do that, you run the risk of

ending up like Paul, rejected persecuted.

But I think, yeah, I think nonetheless we're called to

do that and speak that truth.

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't speak the truth in love.

And they get caught up in sorts of endless arguments and debates because they think

they're making a stand on God's Word.

And they want to use God's Word to correct other people, which is

not what it's there for, is it?

It's there as a mirror to look into, to call us into truth

first and to model that then to

Matt Edmundson: others.

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

Because an evening Nicola welcome to Nicola and John let me carry on

with this conversation, but don't let me forget to come back to Ashton's.

Question.

We've got a, there's a question that Ashton's asked that I need

to come back to about football.

So we'll come back to that one.

But it's interesting, isn't it?

Because you, there is this real tension then, isn't there?

For Christ, as Christians to go, I want to stand on God's word.

I want to hold fast to that.

I guess how do we how do we understand the boundaries?

Someone makes some kind of comment that's not popular in the modern

world, for example, and you go it could be even simpler, couldn't it?

It could be just like somebody is gossiping about somebody else in

the workplace, for example, right?

And I sit there and I hear it and I go I'm not going to get involved with that,

but should I speak up against that?

How do we know?

Where those lines lie.

John Harding: Yeah.

I mean it's very challenging, isn't it?

Because in one sense I don't think the church is very good when it's

pointing out to non-Christian.

Who do not have the Holy Spirit living within them to empower them to follow

God's Word, how they ought to be living.

We just undermine our witness in doing that.

Yeah.

So I think it needs us to be as wise as serpents, innocent as doves, to make sure

that all of our speech is grace and truth.

We were chatting a little bit earlier, weren't we, about my mum,

and she's 89 and a Yorkshire woman and very forthright and outspoken.

I think she can get away with it, in one sense, because it comes from

such a heart of love for people.

So if there's no cost to what you're saying, if it's not coming from a heart

of love And you probably should show up, you, you, like I am a pastor in

a, working in a church, you, your day to day job is in business, isn't it?

So you must find all the time that you are faced with choices where

you could go one way or another way.

And one of those ways may well be more aligned to God's truth and God's word,

how you use your finances, for example, how you treat clients, for example.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, totally.

We had and I may have used this example before on Crowd, but just one of those

things that's really stood out to me over the years is we, years ago, we were

When I had a bookkeeping, an accounting business, this is going back a little

while, I don't have this company anymore.

We were asked by an agency if I would do an interview.

There's this one guy who couldn't get a job.

And they're like, we don't understand what's going on.

Would you interview him for the role and give us feedback?

Would you let us know why he's not getting the role?

And I'm like, sure, totally, why not?

And we came in, we had him come in for an interview for a job that we had going.

And I sit there with a person and I go, listen I want you to

know this is my company, right?

And I am a Christian.

And whilst I don't expect you to have my beliefs, I expect you to

uphold my, the principles of those beliefs in this business, right?

So for example.

We don't lie to clients.

If something, if we do something wrong, we admit it.

If there's a mistake we've made we fess up to it.

We just don't lie.

We just, we come out with the truth and we do it well.

We don't, it's not like we do it uneffectively, but we do it well.

And the guy said to me, and I quote you word for word, and I can

still remember this conversation.

He said to me, he said okay, not a problem.

If you have trouble lying to people, Because you are a Christian.

No problem.

Just give me the phone.

I will lie to the clients for you and it'll all be fine.

And I was like, I think you've missed the point, bro.

I think you've missed the point.

And it is that case of, I think sometimes Trying to understand these

boundaries in which we operate, like where should I speak at?

What should I say?

No, actually, this is, what's wrong is wrong.

And I agree.

Yeah.

And I've got, I've

John Harding: got, I've got, I'm going to do the final talking acts on Acts 28.

You are.

I think it's first 13.

It just says from morning to evening, Paul talks about the

kingdom of God and who was Jesus.

And I think like, when it comes to what we talk about as Christians,

let's just keep it focused on Jesus, Ashton makes a really good comment

about the complexity of how different denominations interpret the scriptures.

I think it's worth saying the crowd is non denominational in the sense

that we connect to lots of churches.

You may have a denomination that says this is a particular teaching, or

that's a particular teaching, I think just read God's Word in community with

others, and humbly try your best to understand it and put it into practice.

That would be my advice to people, even if there's a cost to it or

Matt Edmundson: a fallout to it.

Yeah, absolutely.

If you want to know more about this and dig deeper into it, check out the

talk we did called "Grace and Truth" and it's a real interesting line we

have to walk as Christians, that we live a life of grace, but we also

live a life of truth and understanding how those two things function side

by side is really quite powerful.

John Harding: Hey Matt, Nicola wants to know if he ever got the job.

Yeah,

Matt Edmundson: No we I actually ended the interview right

there and I just said dude.

There's no point in carrying on, is there really?

And so we give the feedback to the company, but no, he didn't get the job.

I can tell you about another, it's nothing related to anything that we're

talking about, but as it's just popped into my head, I may as well share it.

We did this one job interview where.

We were advertising for a marketing role and to, when the way we do it,

when you apply for a job at our company, you have to fill out an application

form and the application form could care less about your education, but it

does care about your character, right?

And what you value.

And so we ask really bizarre questions where there's no right or wrong answer.

We just ask them to see how you answer them.

And One of the questions is, if you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?

We give them a little box to draw like a superhero costume and we've

had, everything from sort of stick men to full on, paintings in that

box when people have applied to jobs.

Anyway, we had one person apply for a job.

They sent their friend down with an application.

They made their friend dress up as Batman and came with a tray of cupcakes.

John Harding: I can weave that into a story that relates to what you

were just saying about speaking the truth, because back in the day when

I was a school teacher, 11 to 18 year olds, I looked after the the pupils

that struggled to be in school.

And access the curriculum because of their behavior.

And I was teaching a little bit this class about how to fill

in an application form in a cv.

And and there was a section that said over qualifications.

And so one of the girls said she would've been 16, she said, Hey, sir what'd

you put in this other qualification?

So I said to her, have you ever done anything that

you've got a certificate for?

She said, yes.

I passed, I had an anger management course, I said don't put it

on your CV, that you'll make me go on an anger management

Matt Edmundson: course, and I passed, yeah.

And I'd get that CV and I wouldn't know what that means, does that

mean you know how to be angry?

That's

John Harding: really funny.

Bringing it back onto the topic, I would love to know what you think about

Paul's appeal to Caesar, because, here's Paul as a thoroughbred Jew, a Jew of

the Jews, but somewhere along the line his father or grandfather must have

earned the right to be a Roman citizen.

So Paul is born as a Roman citizen, that means that some of the ways they've

treated him were actually illegal.

And so Paul, actually I noticed someone was on from Spain, saying hi from

Spain, Paul's intention is to get to Spain that's what he wants to do but

the Spirit has told him he'll end up in Rome, so he appeals to Caesar, the

highest authority in the world at that time, he has a right to have a trial

and an audience with Caesar and he uses it, he says I appeal to Caesar.

Yeah.

And I've often wondered what that feeds into in terms of Our rights and how

we use them or not, or insist on them or not as followers of Jesus I often

think around the importance of defending people's freedom of expression of

conscience, whether I agree with their perspective or not, because if that

gets eroded as it is being eroded at.

The ability to be able to talk about our Christian faith and we wouldn't

be able to do this sort of stuff and broadcast in this sort of way.

So I would not necessarily say, Oh, we should be street preachers with

megaphones preaching in the city centers.

But I think it's important to uphold people's right to do that because

it's the freedom of conscience that allows us to share Jesus freely as

opposed to a part of the world where.

There's persecution and people are not allowed to do that.

So just wondered what you thought about, some people say Paul shouldn't,

in fact, I think Festus and Agrippa are like, why did he do that?

We could have let him go if he had done that.

So did he do the right thing appealing to Caesar?

Maybe not.

I think you did, obviously.

But I wonder what you thought about that, Matt, what folks thought who were sort

Matt Edmundson: of tuning in.

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

Because you're right, there are times when I, if I look back over

my life, there are times where I have been wronged in some way.

Something was going on that should not have been going on.

And you're faced with a choice.

Do I take this to the Courts, for example.

Do I appeal to a higher part of authority in this land to try and

get this matter resolved, yes or no?

And it's not because I was persecuted as a Christian, I'll be totally straight.

This was maybe one of them was actually.

But it's one of those where you go.

Could I do that?

Yes or no?

And I don't know, John, if I've got a hard and fast rule that actually

sometimes I felt God say, yes, do that.

And I felt sometimes God say, no, you don't need to do that.

Now, I know in the news this last week, there was a guy.

Who was a, who was arrested by the police, I think, and charged with hate crimes

as a street preacher and the Christian Institute came across his case, there

was no evidence, they appealed his case, they lost the appeal, and they took it

to the high court, and I think they won, and the police have had to pay, I don't

know, a shed load of money in damages And he's obviously gone to the High Court.

I don't know what's above the High Court.

I'm sure there's something, we could go to.

But the High Court is one of the highest courts in the land, isn't it?

So they felt it was right to take it that far as Christians.

And I think it's quite interesting because not everything I would

suggest has to go that far.

I don't know if that answers your question, but it's a really

interesting one, isn't it?

John Harding: It is and someone said about being led by the spirit

I think that's really important the discernment of the spirit.

I would say as a pastor the discernment of the spirit in

community It is really valuable.

Paul is making this decision to go to Rome, and if you remember the story of

Agabus, the prophet who takes the belt off and binds his hands as a prophetic symbol

of what will happen, there's that mutual discernment in community together, and

so you and I will meet up every so often for breakfast, talk about some of the big

decisions we're making in life, what do you think, so I would be nervous about

someone saying, oh, I just felt the Holy Spirit say to do this or not to do that.

We, the question I'd be asking is who are you mutually concerning

that with in community?

Romans 12, 1, we often know that verse, I urge you brothers and

sisters in view of God's mercy to present your bodies as living

sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God.

This is your spiritual acts of worship.

Rarely do we quote the next verse that says, then you will be able

to test and approve the good, perfect, pleasing will of God.

And so if someone's trying to work out something as big as, do I take to

court, do I appeal to Caesar, whatever version of that we have these days,

I'd be saying is it surrendered to God?

Yeah, have you got your own axe to grind here or is it like,

Lord, I'll do it or I won't do it.

It's entirely up to you and I'm not sure how you can really get to that point

of surrender if you're not bringing in a few trusted friends and mentors

and you could say, what do you think?

And do you think I'm doing this for the right reason and

Matt Edmundson: questions of each other?

Super powerful because I think for me, if I think about the instances

where I've faced those decisions.

I'm very emotional at this point, usually quite angry, because I usually feel like

there's a sense of injustice and so you the counsel and the wisdom, like Dave

Connolly has talked me out of going to court on a few occasions, because it's

actually Matt, I don't think you should on this occasion and just having that

with, that perspective has been super, super helpful, because, especially because

they're emotionally charged events, right?

Yeah,

John Harding: exactly.

The other thing with the illustration you used about the street preacher, I

think that we're just going to be careful that we don't, come back to standing

on God's truth for others opinions.

We're just going to be careful that we don't get the impression

from the world around us that we're not free to share our faith.

You really are, in this country, have massive amounts of laws.

The, it's enshrined in law that freedom to communicate your Christian faith.

Whether a police officer, does great job in societies

interpret that correctly or not.

Yeah.

Invariably those people will will be cleared, but no one can go through that.

But I think in the spiritual warfare that we're in, I think

it is intimidation really.

And I would encourage everyone to speak frequently of Jesus.

To the people around them and living away.

That doesn't annoy people, if doesn't upset people, don't be an idiot.

Don't be like, if you're going to speak about Jesus in the workplace and

you don't want people to get annoyed, make sure you're the best employee.

Yeah.

If you're going to speak about Jesus in a community, make sure

you're serving that community.

That's the way to avoid probably to avoid people that, that sort of,

that situation that Paul ended up in.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

Top advice.

Top ad vice.

So when Dave talks about then standing on God's Word, we understand a little

bit more about what that means.

And he also talked about taking it's, he said it's not easy to always take a step

of faith or to take the step of faith.

And I wrote that down and I just wondered, one, let's just dig into that a little

bit more and explain what taking a step of faith means, and probably let's throw

a few examples out there of what that has actually meant for you and for me as well.

John Harding: Yeah.

It's a christianism, isn't it?

It's a bit of jargon.

What it really mean.

I believe the phrase that leap of faith was coined by Sur

Kegar, the Danish philosopher.

And I think he talks about it quite effectively in terms of like logic, the

rational mind, but the following God requires us to do something beyond that.

Yeah.

You may well be standing on God's word, you may be knowing God's

words, you may be being obedient to God, but there are times where you

just have to take a bit of a risk.

You have to say, I think this is the right thing to do, I'm just going to have a go.

And Hebrews 11 is a really important way of defining what

faith actually looks like.

Faith is the substance of what is hoped for, the certainty of what is hoped

for, the substance of what is not seen.

And I'll Talk myself into examples in a moment, I'm sure, but the times, like

for example, where you look at your bank account, and you think that God is telling

you to be generous towards somebody, makes no rational sense whatsoever,

and It's impossible to give away money and not have less money initially.

That's very true.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's very true.

John Harding: That works so you will have less.

And yet you feel God's called you to do it.

And so you take a step of faith, you take a leap of faith.

You could think I'm going to do it because I know that God will catch me.

I know that God has got me.

I'm standing on God's promises to say I'm standing on his word.

I know that he'll provide for me.

Yeah.

We've had that in our lives over the years in all sorts of ways.

When I left teaching to lead a church, that was a step of faith because it

meant I went from a very stable job that had a very stable income, that had

a pay spine and pay scale that I could progress through over the years into

an environment that wasn't like that.

Now that's because I felt God clearly speaking to us about it,

but it was still a step of faith.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah,

John Harding: interestingly, when we're talking about faithful friends

and mentors, it was Dave who was like, do you know, are you certain?

How certain are you?

So people that ask those sorts of questions, but you must have had that many

times in life as well, where You're taking a step of faith because there's a risk

where it's either God comes through for me in this or it all goes, it all falls flat

Matt Edmundson: on it's face.

Yeah, absolutely, and I've always, the way I've always thought about this.

I don't know if it's entirely helpful in every situation.

So don't, please don't form a theology out of it, folks.

But it's one of those things where I've always believed that God can

handle my failure much more than he can handle my disobedience.

And so I'd rather fail at having a go.

Yeah.

Something.

As in, I think God has said this, I'm fairly sure, let's have a go, I'd

rather get it wrong and fail than I would be the kind of guy that just

sits there and goes I'd rather be Peter getting out of the boat than

the other eleven sitting in the boat.

Does that make sense?

. John Harding: Yeah.

I mean you, and again, sorry.

I met up with Dave earlier in the week, , for a catchup.

So I'm like quoting Dave all the time, but he's oh, John, why do these people

wanna keep putting a fleece out?

A fleece after a fleece?

You know that story, putting a fleece out.

Yeah.

Think if it's wet in the morning or whatever.

Dave says, put fleece out the end of being fleeced.

I would just say that if you want to actually really mature as a

Christian, start to look to be rapidly, instantly obedient in little things.

I think that when people say they can't hear the voice of God, often

it's because the little nudges of the spirit they've ignored.

Yeah.

Time after time.

So take a little, take a real little step this week where you, I'm sure

the Lord will say, go and say hi to that person, make that person a cup of

tea, give that person a phone call, or send them a message to encourage them.

You've got a choice in that moment to think, oh, I've probably just had too much

cheese the night before, that's not God Or, oh yeah, just do it and practicing

that little bit of obedience and stepping out and taking those little steps, I

think aligns us to take bigger steps and bigger risks in God, knowing that

he's absolutely always faithful to us.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's super, super good, it's super.

You're right, it's the little things.

He who is faithful in the little will also be faithful in the much, right?

And I think it's one of those things where I remember someone saying to

me about faith once, faith is like a muscle and it needs to be exercised.

Yeah.

And sometimes we feel like You come to Christianity, and it's I need

to have faith to raise the dead.

Do you know what I mean?

It's that kind of thing.

But there's this whole journey along the way.

And I remember years ago, the very first time this sort of clearly happened to me.

So I remember standing in my room at university where I had,

do you remember Walkmans, John?

This is how far back we're going over 30 years ago.

John Harding: I think this is a different generation

Matt Edmundson: to me, Matt.

Whatever.

So I had a Walkman and I had, and there was this teaching series, this tape

teaching series, because we used to have to put tapes in our Walkmans to listen to

people who couldn't stream it back then.

And I had these tapes and I really wanted to listen to them.

And they were on the topic of faith, but the, I got my Walkman out.

Ready the night before, and I was gonna put it in my ears

and I was gonna walk to uni.

It's a 45 minute walk.

I thought I can get a tape in before I get, before get to my lectures,

but the batteries were flat on my Walkman, so they stopped working.

And so I remember standing in my room going, this is

really interesting, isn't it?

Because I, I remember hit, I had this phrase in the back of

my head, about how Christians.

Want, they try and believe God for the raising of the dead, but they can't

believe God for a pair of new socks.

Do you know what I mean, it was that kind of ideology, and I thought, this is

interesting, so I remember praying, God, I would really like some new batteries

for this Walkman, just praying, just, a bizarre thing to do in a lot of ways.

And I just remember going, God I, I cast a carry this over onto you.

Didn't think about it.

Went to bed, woke up the next day, put the Walkman on my belt, put

the headphones around my neck as you did, and walked out my door.

And they're right on my, on the wall outside our house.

'cause we were in one of these terrorist houses in Liverpool where they had

you know, walls in front of the houses right on the wall outside my house was.

Two AA batteries, brand new, in the pack, there was a pack of four, they left

two, brand new, Duracell Plus, proper, not cheap, but proper AA batteries.

I just put them in my Walkman, listened to the tape, walking to university,

I was just praising God and I just remember thinking, it's the little

things, it's the simple little things and the delighting yourself in those as,

as much as it is the big things, right?

Absolutely.

John Harding: Absolutely.

Peter's put trusting.

God comes to mind and faith is really about that, isn't it?

People say forsaking all, I trust him.

F-A-I-T-H.

It's just saying, Lord, I look to you, I'm, I, you can try and meet your own

needs, make it happen for yourself.

We, we can't be passive in this Christian life, but.

Faith is about saying, God, I'll look to you to provide.

I'm going to take a step of faith, and that is how it always works in scriptures.

You think about the feeding of the 5, 000.

First of all, you've got a young lad who surrenders his packed lunch.

That's a step of faith, isn't it?

Yeah, you've got this, the miracle happens in the disciples and they've

got to break it and hand it out.

They'd have looked stupid at that point.

You think about the widow's oil that multiplied.

People have to You know, if you want to walk and walk, you've

got to get out of the boat.

That faith is like taking an active step in God to demonstrate that trust in God.

And it's in that hope that God proves himself to be

Matt Edmundson: true to you.

Yeah, no it is, totally.

And it'll be in the small things and it'll be in the big things

and it's just the way life goes.

I've always I, it's a bit self helping in some ways, but I, it's a very, it's

a very simple truism, you always miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take.

And I think this is Michael Jordan that said that, and it's that kind of thing.

Is that

John Harding: on a poster in your office?

Matt Edmundson: It used to be, yeah.

It's true though.

It is totally true.

You always miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take and I

think that's what faith is about.

It's about going, God, I think I've heard you on this and I'm going to

take a shot and just see what happens.

God, I think I've heard

John Harding: you on this, so I'm going to stop striving.

I'll stop.

Do you know what I mean?

That sort of, I'm going to rest in you.

There's always an action.

I think you can look at the prophetic words of the Bible.

You can look at the prophetic actions of the Bible.

There's some way of stepping into it, and activating

Matt Edmundson: faith.

Yeah, absolutely.

If you're a small businessman, one of the hardest things to do is to actually stop

working, and maybe God's calling you to actually just have a Sabbath day, just

enjoy a day of rest every week, take a day

John Harding: of rest, trust and believe that in that simple act of

taking a day of rest, God will make the next six days more productive.

Yeah.

So it's faith.

It's a step of faith.

Yeah.

But what about work?

I won't get done exactly.

There's a risk.

You might get less work done.

Or by saying, Lord, I trust you.

I believe I'm being obedient to you.

I believe that's what your word says.

I'm going to rest.

Maybe God will be true to his promises and multiply your work in the rest of the

time, which I would not, maybe absolutely would, but that's the point, isn't it?

You don't know till

Matt Edmundson: you try.

Yeah, exactly.

And coming back to what you said earlier, same with finances.

I know we don't really talk an awful lot about.

Finances in some respects on crowd, but there is this, you and I would both

hold the belief that actually tithing and being generous or giving 10%, at

least 10 percent of your money to the gospel to your local church, to, giving

10 percent of your money, 10 percent of your income is a sensible thing to do.

Yeah.

God

John Harding: doesn't need your money.

Actually, the church doesn't need your money.

I as an individual need to give.

Because what it does is it breaks the power of consumerism over my

life and it helps me to, like it says in Malachi, it helps me to

prove God in that step of faith.

So I believe Lord, if I'm, I, as an, because you promised to provide

for me, I'm giving away this money.

Committed regularly, whether I feel I've got it or not, that's what I'm doing to be

obedient, because I believe that you will multiply, magnify the remainder of it.

That's the step of faith financially, which is a great.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

You've always told the story of of when you were a kid around that, haven't you,

where you saw that with, was it with food?

John Harding: Oh yeah, we were the poorest kids around.

My dad had died shortly after we were born.

We were in a mining town where there was no jobs.

My mum brought us up on her own.

We were the, everything we had was secondhand, but I, I remember

on two occasions distinctly like being no food in the house.

And we sat at the table.

My mum sat us at the table, which the way I think about it, the way I think is

exactly what we're talking about here.

She said we're going to pray, So we prayed and there was a knock on the

door, went to the door, there's a bag of food on the door, doorstep.

So in one sense, we all have different challenges as what faith steps are in.

Do you know what I mean?

There are different things that would, some people, for some people it's

money, for some people that's time and lots of different areas that God might

call you to take a risk and step out.

But for me, that's just That's yeah, God will provide.

He always has done.

He always will do.

Because he's a good father and he's

Matt Edmundson: promised to do yeah, absolutely.

But full disclosure, it doesn't, God doesn't always provide in the

way you think he's going to, right?

And it's and it's actually, I think faith is going, yes, God will bring

food to the door, but it's actually accepting that it might not be

how I think it's going to happen.

And I can still trust God with that, right?

I remember another

John Harding: occasion that, that happening and we had it was someone

doing a survey in the town centre saying, hi, we just opened up a new

we just changed a menu, a pub menu.

We're looking for some people who come and try the food and give us some feedback.

Would you like to come along?

Two very different, when I say two memories of God

doing that at a time where.

We didn't have that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so now we're like, yeah, we wanna have people around for food.

We wanna be generous with people.

, it's quite exciting putting cash in an envelope and sticking it through someone's

letter box and not letting them know Yeah.

I still enjoy doing that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's not that money's the main thing at all, but.

In today's world, they say the last part of a man to be sanctified is his wallet

and his right foot, the accelerator pedal on the car, so we do want to talk

about the challenging stuff as well, don't we, but I really want to bring

it back to Dave's point, which was, In all of this, there's also that risk,

that challenge of speaking about Jesus and the risk of saying to someone, Hey,

would you like to come to church with me?

Or, can I share with you how God has changed my life?

Or, can I give you this little flyer or can I give you a Bible or when you

said before about someone gossiping, I'll tell you for me, what I think is

a more challenging example for me when I was in the workplace, when someone's

saying they're sick and you think, Oh, I think the Lord might be saying.

Offer to pray for them.

So you're going to take that leap of faith and say, can I pray for you?

I believe that God still heals people today.

Would you mind if I prayed for you?

And let's see if God does something.

And so I think Dave rooted it in that idea of Paul being a witness for Jesus.

And I feel like that's a good place to bring it back to that, that idea of taking

that risk to share Jesus with people.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

No, that's very good.

Very good to bring it back to that John.

And a good place to, to bring Conversation Street to a close.

I feel.

I do want to answer this one question of Ashton, though that came up.

And it goes like this.

How does Liver, how does, or how do Liverpool people decide whether

to support Liverpool or Everton?

I always wondered as my city has only one great team in New Castle.

John Harding: Both Matt and I would say, I'm not the only Eskimo

in a great team, but he is an

Matt Edmundson: Evertonian, he is, bless him, no one's perfect though, John, right?

John Harding: Yeah, no one's perfect, you just have to go with how the Lord

leads you, but I do believe he has led Matt and I into all truth absolutely.

Matt Edmundson: Absolutely.

It's one of those things where I think Ashton, I would answer that question.

It depends how much depression you want in your life, really.

It's one of those, there's some evidence.

In fact, there's one lady, in fact she's been on crowd actually.

If you get, if you listen to her story, what's the story, Jenny Oliver,

she did a story on the podcast.

Lovely lady.

She was a Liverpool fan, married an Everton fan, and then had to convert

to save her marriage form for better expression, so she's now an Everton fan.

And she's actually probably the biggest, strongest, raven Everton fan in.

in the office.

And there's a few of, a few Everton fans in our office.

I think the Liverpool fans have now become the minority, which is a bit of a shame.

But but yeah I genuinely, I think a lot of my experience, Ashton, with Liverpool

is a lot of it is down to family.

And then if you come into Liverpool, which both John and I did, we're

imports I came to Liverpool because of the football team because I was

always a lifelong Liverpool fan.

Yeah.

John Harding: I grew up mad about the rugby and a little bit ambivalent

about the football, if I may say so.

Rugby and cricket were my sports growing up and it was my

boys that dragged me into it.

So I've had one of them here watching the Liverpool game whilst we've

been enjoying the four I probably shouldn't say, but enjoying the goals.

Matt Edmundson: It's too late now.

And to be fair, full disclosure.

I may have had it, I shouldn't actually put the, we don't publicise betting

companies here on Crowd because betting is just nonsense, but yes, I've been watching

the football, which is why I've been occasionally glancing down, just looking

at the score, so well done Liverpool, that's why we support Liverpool,

because we like to win, but yes.

What's

John Harding: happening next

Matt Edmundson: week, Matt?

Very good question I don't actually know I am gonna, I'm gonna pull

it up and I'm gonna find out.

We're hoping,

John Harding: It's great to have everyone join us this evening.

I've really enjoyed seeing the comments.

I can't quite type back in the comments, but thank you everyone.

You could see some new names as well.

Yeah, we hope that we're gonna keep joining, keep connecting in,

particularly off the back of what we talked about how you discern what God's

saying to you, the value of community to do that and others to do that.

So yeah, thank you everyone for joining us.

Absolutely.

Matt Edmundson: And on that note, let me just put that on the screen, www.

crowd.

church or on social media at crowdchurch.

You can connect with us you haven't done so already, subscribe to the email.

We'll send you an email out every week letting you know what's going on.

If you want to know more about the midweek community groups and getting

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even if you're not what you profess to be a Christian, that's fine.

Come join us.

We'd love to meet you.

We'd love to connect.

Then we do those on a Wednesday night via Zoom.

If Wednesday nights don't work for you, let us know.

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Get in touch with us and we will let you know all about those groups.

Now, coming up next week, we have Dan and Ruth Orange hosting Crowd.

That'll be back in the studio with the legendary Pete Farrington, who is talking

about Acts 27 versus one through four.

And if Pete.

It's gonna be good because Pete is just a legend.

Love the bones off that man.

And so yeah, come join Dan and Ruth.

Brother and sister, Dan and Ruth Orange.

Come and join them next week.

They're just awesome together, actually.

Really funny.

Ruth just gives Dan loads of grief, which I think is just probably deserved

as well, if I'm honest with you.

Haha, so yes.

Awesome.

John, anything from you in closing, bro?

John Harding: Guys, everyone watching, just pray that the Lord will bless you

and pray that you will press in deeper into Jesus and his word over this coming

Matt Edmundson: week.

Yeah, absolutely.

Very good.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks for joining John and myself.

Have a very amazing week.

Just hope you hear God's voice.

If you are new to the Christian faith, or if you're wanting to understand it a

little bit more, again, any questions, any prayer requests to send them to

us through the website or through WhatsApp, the WhatsApp numbers on the

website, we would love to hear from you.

And there is an alpha course.

An online alpha course, which we have on the website, which you can work through.

And we know many people work through that as well.

So a lot of questions answered there, but honestly, any questions we would love

to hear from you and we'll try our level best to help you get to grips with it.

Because Jesus really is worth it.

Really does help us live a meaningful life, as we'd like to say here on crowd.

One is full of meaning and lots of laughter along the way.

Awesome.

That's it from me, that's it from John, God bless you, bye for now.

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It has been Awesome to connect with you and you are awesome.

It's just a burden you have to bear and hopefully we'll see you next time.

That's it from us.

God bless you.

Bye for now.