See, Touch, Believe: The Reality of Easter's Miracle

Matt Edmundson: Welcome to this week's Crowd Church service.

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Hello and welcome to Crowd Online Church.

I am here with the beautiful, talented John Harding.

It's great to see you on this Easter Sunday.

John, how are you doing?

John Harding: I'm doing very well, thank you, Matt.

Thank you for that lovely introduction, as always.

Was it beautiful and talented this time?

It's normally something else, but a happy Easter to you, Matt.

Are you having a good

Matt Edmundson: Easter?

I am, man, I am.

We had a cracking service at Frontline this morning, not going to lie.

I enjoyed church this morning and I enjoyed Liverpool winning,

so we're top of the league.

It's been a cracking, and here I am with you doing Crowd, so it's a cracking day.

John Harding: Yeah, what a great, maybe an end to the day, I don't know, but yeah, a

day for celebrating all round and a happy Easter to everyone who's tuning in and a

happy Easter to everyone who's watching.

I pray that you have a real celebration today of the resurrection.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Easter is the day of the Christian calendar, isn't it?

It's the day we get to celebrate the resurrection of Christ.

I love that video, the little intro video that we have there.

And you, as you can see, I have earphones in.

So when I hear that video playing, it's like in surround sound, and you just get

immersed in it and you get the tingles and the goosebumps and yeah, just great

to celebrate the resurrection, which we're going to be talking about today.

In fact, you're going to be talking about today.

John Harding: Yeah, I'm gonna be speaking through the power of pre recording.

I've got an interesting little talk from an interesting little location.

It's it's gonna be different today, but it's that theme of resurrection

and I love proclaiming it and I love listening to it being proclaimed.

There's something so powerful and you said great video, but I'm just sat there.

Listen to that video thinking how exciting that the truth proclaimed that we

believe not just received but spoken out.

I love it.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

Now we're going to get into all of that.

So welcome to Crowd Church.

If this is your first time with us, a very warm welcome to you.

We just do church online.

We have some fun with it.

The way it works is we're going to have a talk, actually, as John just mentioned,

John is going to have an interesting talk from an interesting location.

Stay tuned to find out more and then John and I are going to get

into whole Conversation Street.

We're going to chat about some of the things that John said and some of

the things you write in the comments.

So if you've got any questions, any thoughts, any ideas, any stories you want

to share, do put them in the comments and we will hopefully get a chance to respond

to them, whether you're watching on YouTube or Facebook it'd be great to hear

from you and so let's see who we've got.

We've got Andy in the comments, we've got Peter in the comments, Peter, I

think you're in Spain, from memory.

I have no idea what Happy Easter is in Spanish, but whatever it is,

Happy Easter to you, my good friends.

We've got Lala over on Facebook, Miriam, Happy Easter, Matt, Happy Easter.

Very warm welcome to everybody that's joining us so far.

It's it's great to be with you on this very beautiful, joyous, celebratory

day in the Christian calendar.

So yeah, we're going to get into all of that.

So I think without further ado, John, should we get into the talk and then

we'll get into Conversation Street.

Let's get into it.

Let's get into it.

Like I say, here's John.

We're going to have a talk.

It's going to last about, I think, 11 and a half minutes from memory, which is

probably one of the shortest talks you've done for a while, John, I think, isn't it?

John Harding: You'll see from the location that I had to get it into

a little slot really, but can I also say, please interact everyone, put your

questions, your thoughts, your comments, your stories, your illustrations in.

We'd love to develop the ideas

Matt Edmundson: from the talk in Conversation Street.

Thanks Yeah, absolutely.

That's the bit after the talk where John and I just chat along,

like I say, to stuff that's brought up and in the comments.

So don't be afraid.

Whack them in.

It'll be good to see you in there.

We'll be back in a few minutes time.

But for now, here's John.

You go get changed, quickly go to the location and we'll see you there.

John Harding: Happy Easter everyone from sunny tonight in England.

India.

Happy Easter, or should I say Christ is risen?

Because that's the ancient traditional greeting on Easter Sunday morning

of Christians from around the world.

I say Christ is risen, you say He is risen indeed, and we both say Alleluia.

Christ is risen.

This is the foundation stone of the Christian faith.

Without the resurrection, there is no Christian faith.

Without the actual, literal, miraculous, bodily resurrection

of Jesus, there's no Christianity.

The Apostle Paul, he says of this in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, he says, If

1 Corinthians 15 · chapter mention

there is no resurrection, Your faith is futile, it is useless, it is pointless.

C.

S.

Lewis, the great author and Christian academic, he argued in his work called

Miracles, he argued that to preach Christ is to preach the Resurrection.

The Resurrection was a central theme of every sermon in the Book of Acts.

It's why C.

S.

Lewis wrote Narnia, it's why he had Aslan rise from the dead.

He wanted to explain that idea to children.

Christ is the Resurrection.

Risen.

It's not a metaphor, it's not a made up nice story with a moral meaning in it,

it's not a thing that was believed in the ancient world but irrelevant for today.

No, Christ's resurrection is the whole hinge point for the Christian

faith and it's the thing that makes the difference today in our lives.

Here I am in Chennai, in India, the burial place of St.

Thomas, one of Jesus twelve apostles.

And there's a strong, compelling argument that in 72 AD, Thomas

was killed here on this site.

He was martyred, a spear was driven through him after 20

years of preaching the gospel and planting churches in this region.

Thomas had travelled from Israel to India.

To give this life proclaiming message of Jesus death and resurrection.

Think for a moment about Thomas reaction to Jesus, to the resurrection.

You can read about it in John chapter 20 verse 24 to 31.

John 20:24–31

It's a famous story.

It's so famous that when we think of Thomas, we think of doubt.

You might even describe someone as a doubting Thomas.

Let me recap the story.

What has happened is this.

Jesus had been crucified, killed, dead and buried for three days.

A fact, everyone knew it.

Thomas knew it.

Jesus was dead.

So for these disciples, their hopes, their dreams of Jesus becoming a new king in a

new kingdom, their dreams were crushed.

And now these disciples, because of their association with

Jesus, they were in hiding.

They were in fear for their lives.

Now, what they hadn't realized was that death could not hold Jesus.

The grave could not cling to Jesus.

Such was his power.

Such was His purity, that resurrection was inevitable.

So Jesus had been killed, he'd been buried.

Three days later, he'd raised a new life, and this resurrected Jesus

then appeared to Mary and Peter and John and then the other disciples.

They all believed that Jesus had been raised from the dead simply.

Because they'd seen Jesus, they'd seen the resurrection of Jesus with their own eyes.

They'd encountered the resurrected Jesus.

Yeah, it was a mind blowing impossible miracle, but they couldn't deny

it because they'd experienced it.

They'd seen it.

But for whatever reason, Thomas had missed out on all of that.

Thomas hadn't been with Mary or Peter or John or the other disciples when

they encountered the risen Jesus.

And so When those disciples said to Thomas, when they said Jesus

is alive, that he'd risen from the dead, I think, quite understandably,

Thomas simply did not believe that.

The disciples told Thomas Jesus is risen, and Thomas famously replies, he says

unless I see the nail marks in his hands Unless I touch the place where the spear

went into his side, I will not believe.

Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, unless I touch the place where the spear

went into his side, I will not believe.

In other words, Thomas was saying, unless I see him, unless I touch

him, unless I can empirically verify this for myself, I won't believe.

Anyway, the story continues.

John 20, 26.

It says that a week passes and Thomas is out with the other disciples

and when, who should walk into the room, but none other than the risen

Jesus, freshly raised from the dead.

And Jesus addresses Thomas, he says to Thomas, he says,

Look at my nail pierced hands.

Thomas, touch my side where the spear went in.

Jesus says to Thomas, stop doubting and believe.

And Thomas says these words to Jesus.

His response to Jesus in verse 28 is this.

He says, My Lord and my God.

And I want to make simple points, three simple points about Easter from

the resurrection of Jesus and from St.

Thomas today.

Firstly Like Thomas, it is okay to have doubts.

Doubt is normal.

Doubt is natural.

Doubt is understandable.

I don't know about you, but I don't think I would have been any different to Thomas.

The Christian faith hinges on a number of unbelievable,

miraculous, supernatural events.

The virgin birth, that God would take on flesh and blood.

The resurrection, that Jesus would be raised from the dead on third day.

The remarkable miraculous happenings.

If you've never questioned those events, if you've never had doubts about

those, you've probably never really thought about them in enough detail.

Thomas doubted, and it's okay to have doubts.

Number two, like Thomas, I think it's okay to ask for evidence.

Thomas asked for evidence.

Thomas had this clear criteria for what evidence he would need in order to believe

what the other disciples were claiming.

Thomas needed an encounter with Jesus in order to believe in Jesus.

That's exactly what Jesus gave him.

I think that is really important to note that for a number of reasons.

Firstly, if you are watching this and you're not a Christian, if you struggle

to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, and you think how on earth can

my normal, sane, intelligent, Christian friends believe in such nonsense?

The answer is most probably this.

They believe because they've encountered Jesus.

They believe because they've experienced Jesus.

That's why they believed.

Also, I think, Thomas, in asking for evidence, it's important for us because

it forces us to ask what evidence would you need for the resurrection?

And I think when we start to look into it, actually, we see there's

loads of compelling evidence for the resurrection of Jesus.

I don't have time to go into it all now, but you could Google people

like Lee Strobel and his book on the evidence for the resurrection.

But I want to point out one simple compelling piece of evidence that's

basically here all around me here at the place of St Thomas's resting place.

Jesus was crucified as a common criminal, the enemy of the

Jews, the enemy of the Romans.

Those two forces then combined to do everything in their power to crush the

new religion of Christianity, to wipe it out and to execute anyone who spread the

message of Jesus's death and resurrection.

The disciples, so they went into hiding.

They were fearful for their lives.

They faced the real likelihood that they're going to be

captured, tortured and executed.

It seemed that Good Friday, Holy Saturday, it seemed like Jesus's mission had failed.

And so it was time to pack up shop, go home.

This is where the story should have ended for those disciples.

Only that's not what happened.

Christianity did not die out with the death of its founder.

On the contrary, those disciples told everyone that they met

about Jesus, his resurrection.

They preached it in the streets, they preached it in the marketplaces, they

went across the entire world proclaiming the risen Jesus despite it being illegal.

Despite the fact that many of them were killed for it, in fact all of the

apostles, apart from John, were executed because they proclaimed the risen Jesus.

Why would they do that?

Why would they risk everything, give everything, even their lives, for a lie?

How do you take a handful of fearful men, who felt like failures, and transform

them into men who change the world?

It just doesn't happen.

But we know what made the difference was three days later they encountered

and experienced the resurrected Jesus.

And even the Doubting Thomas was so convinced and so transformed by that

encounter, That he left his home and travelled 7, 000 kilometres through

modern day Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, down to the southern parts of

India, only to be killed, a spurge driven through him for proclaiming

the message of the risen Christ.

So it's okay to have doubts like Thomas.

It's okay to ask for evidence like Thomas.

Do that with an open mind and an open heart and you will see there's actually

compelling evidence for the resurrection.

But the final point is this.

Will you acknowledge Jesus like Thomas?

Will you respond to Jesus like Thomas?

Is your heart open enough?

Are you humble enough to say, Ask for that encounter, and when you get that

encounter, will your response be like that of Thomas, who said, My Lord, my God.

Thomas encountered the resurrected Jesus, and his response was to confess

that Jesus was his Lord and God.

His response was to worship.

So this Easter, let's move beyond seeing Easter as a nice made up

story, a nice metaphor, a fairy tale about death and new life.

Let's move beyond that into the real story, a real miracle, a

real encounter with a real person.

Let's move beyond it to Jesus, the one who is risen and the

one who changes the world.

Everything.

Amen.

Matt Edmundson: Amen, indeed.

John Harding: Sorry, I've just got off the

Matt Edmundson: plane.

As if by magic, and he's back.

Mate, that looked amazing.

It sounded noisy, it sounded like there was a lot going on, but it sounded like

an epic little trip you were on there.

John Harding: Oh, absolutely.

And India is overloads the sensors, but I normally do all my talks in

one take, but every time I started recording, someone would come

over and ask me what I was doing.

So I was like, between the sort of car horns and the aeroplanes going overhead

and people asking me what I was doing, I was like, I need to get this down.

That's why I'm speaking so quickly.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, well done.

Well done.

It's I always find it's fascinating when you try and do these things on location.

So I remember two years ago, trying to looking at the something that we did on

social media, we did on Instagram, asking the question, why did Jesus have to die?

And I happened to be at Alcatraz with my daughter at the time in San Francisco.

So we're like this is a great way to try and explain the whole concept of being a

slave to sin and all that sort of stuff and phrases we use in Christianity in us.

And I use the analogy that, Imagine if you were a prisoner and I could show

you some of the prisons in Alcatraz and we did some nice, what they call

B roll and all those sorts of stuff.

And we were doing this video imagine you're a prisoner and you're just

about to go into jail, you're going to serve live imprisonment.

And someone comes along and says, I'm going to take your place.

You get back on the boat and go back to the mainland.

This Jesus took our place on the cross.

And I said, and we use this as an analogy.

Anyway, the long and short of the story is, John, it took a lot of

takes to do a 30 second video.

Yeah,

John Harding: we don't always give credit to the team, the crowd

team who work behind the scenes, but once again, great production.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I wish I could take any form of credit for that, but

I genuinely can't Tanya and Sadaf and people like that, amazing, absolute

legends, love the bit, bones off them with all that video editing that's going on.

Andy's put here in the comments, bet the food was good in India.

John Harding: Yeah, I love it, what you don't realise when you travel

around India what I hadn't realised is that you do get spicy curry style

food, breakfast, lunch and dinner.

So by the time you've done like 12 days, you just want a spag bol,

Matt Edmundson: Was that your first meal when you got back from India?

That's awesome.

It was great timing in one sense.

So you were over in India, this place where the Apostle Thomas, the doubting

Thomas, the one we all hence the reason that the sort of the doubting Thomas

comes along, the sort of the place where history would more than likely

dictate was where he served out his final years and was martyred there.

And what was fascinating was the amount you were talking about

the amount of churches that sort of started as a result of him.

being over there, there's always been churches over there now in India.

What do they think to Thomas over there in Chennai?

I'm curious because obviously there's a big link to him being in the Gospels.

John Harding: I'm not sure I've ever said what do you think about him?

Think it's more the sort of what would be the Episcopalian equivalent

of the Anglican Church, if the church in India that would and the

Catholic Church as well obviously with the veneration of the saints.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

John Harding: They would make a really big deal of it because you've

actually only got, I think it's the only, the third Basilica where you've

got one of the Apostles evidenced as buried there, so obviously St.

Peter in Rome.

I can't quite remember because my church history and Catholic tradition isn't that

strong, but it puts it right up there as maybe one of the third most important

sites if you look at it in that sense.

It's actually a cave, a grotto, where according to tradition, he

spent hours and hours just in prayer.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, amazing, really.

I remember when I was in Rome, and I walked into what was purported to be the

jail where the Apostle Paul was kept, when he was in Rome in jail, going into

the tiniest of rooms, it was tiny, and, no real natural daylight and thinking,

Oh, my goodness, you get a real sense of what these guys went through and I

think a sort of a new earned respect.

I dunno, is it, how do I word this question?

I wanna say, was it inspirational?

But not in a kind of weird way, but just to see it, just to experience it.

John Harding: Yeah.

What I would say, Matt, is obviously you and I, Sharon and

others, were meant to be last month

Matt Edmundson: in

John Harding: Israel and, that will be my fifth visit.

We've rescheduled because obviously we pray for peace in Jerusalem for

everyone who lives in that land.

We pray for peace.

But what I would say is that if you do the work and look into the

historicity of the texts, like the Gospels, they really stand up.

These are just such strong traditions and so one of the things that I love

is being around the world in all sorts of places and just seeing Christianity

in those places and just seeing the gospel bearing fruit in those places

and people who love Jesus and who know Jesus and who are serving Jesus often

with far less resources than us, whether it be parts of the world like Dias in

Congo, where we've served as a church for many years, or the students that

we take to Bulgaria and up to Roma.

Churches in the mountains in our part of the world, in our little part of history,

the UK 2024 that you could be forgiven for being sold being believing a narrative

which is Christianity is dying out.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

John Harding: And there are some sorts, some types of

churches that are struggling.

There's no doubt about that.

But that is not the truth globally.

Particularly in the Southern Hemisphere, Christianity continues

to grow at an incredibly rapid rate.

The power of the Gospel, this message that Jesus proclaimed, that then

his first followers proclaimed, hasn't lost any of its power.

People's lives are still transformed.

And I talked about evidence.

Obviously we can't prove the resurrection.

These things are beyond the scope of science to prove we believe it by faith.

We receive it by faith, but even this day, around the world,

people will get that revelation.

Some people will click, and they will go like Thomas from Doubting to Believing.

They might find it hard to explain why, but they will.

And like Thomas, they'd be willing to put their lives on the line for it.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah,

John Harding: that's how convinced they are.

So yeah, I suppose they're my ramblings in response to

connecting with a global church.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

It's interesting, isn't it?

I was standing in church this morning thinking about Easter, thinking that I

am one of millions of people around the world today celebrating the resurrection

of Christ, if not billions, right?

Two billion.

Yeah, billions.

Marking the most significant day.

And part of me, when I was thinking about the sheer size of that, and then

I was thinking, assuming that Jesus died 2000 years ago, or maybe 2012

years ago, whatever the exact number is, 2024, we don't, I don't know,

but, it was a while ago that I have participated in Easter for 30 of those

2000 years, I've had the real privilege of participating in Easter services as

a Christian for 30, some of those years.

And I thought that's a real privilege, that's being part of history.

And then I was thinking about the size of the Christians around the

world thinking, man, I'm in one sense, I'm a very small part in a very big

kingdom, but I'm known by the king.

In this massive kingdom and there's this real massive tension.

And so I was just thinking about that this morning, actually in church and

just being super, super grateful,

John Harding: yeah.

That's a lovely thought, Matt.

Matt Edmundson: It's just really interesting, isn't it?

You're just like, yeah, we're in this kingdom.

We have a king.

We are known by the king, but the kingdom is not small and it is not

powerless in any form or another.

And I have the favour of that king.

Are you mad?

Why would I not want any part of this?

John Harding: Sons and daughters of that king.

It reminds me of that quote Timothy Candler, he says, who would dare to wake

a king at 3am to ask for a glass of water?

Who would dare to go into a king's chamber and do that?

And he goes and say, a son and a daughter, that's who.

And so we have the king of the universe.

And what he does is he gives us access to him.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

John Harding: It's amazing.

Changes everything.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, it changes your whole life in so many ways, in so many ways.

One of the questions in the comments, is Easter a pagan service

that Christians have hijacked?

John Harding: No, not at all.

Really we're talking about a Jewish Passover.

And I've seen all the videos about that and all the rest of it.

Easter and the Paganism I'll say two things.

First of all, I'll say the whole of Easter is best understood in the fulfillment of

the Passover Festival of the Jewish faith.

Jesus as a Jew, the True Messiah effectively re enacting the second exodus.

So it is the fulfillment of the Passover.

I think that one of the reasons why some people think, oh, Christianity in the

UK, let's just remember how many times this celebration piece, peace act had

been celebrated by followers of Jesus before Christianity came to England.

But one of the things that missionaries do is that they use the language and the

culture of a place, a little bit like you being in Alcatraz, to communicate a truth

to people who don't understand that truth.

And so first missionaries that came to the UK, they took what was an

existing pagan festival, and some of the language and words around that,

to effectively help the missionary propagation and Christianization of it

to override it with a greater truth.

And I think that's just an effective evangelistic missionary strategy.

It's the idea that somehow that Christians have got confused about what they

believe and are somehow just reenacting or rehashing some pagan druid type

of activities from Western Europe is, it just doesn't stand up to any type

Matt Edmundson: of questioning.

No, I'm totally with you, because you get asked that question

about Easter, you get asked that question about Christmas as well.

That's the other one that I think is quite popular.

One of the one of the conversations that I mean, one of the things that

you alluded to, let's talk about Thomas, because I want to get into

Thomas a little bit, because you alluded to things about Thomas.

One, it was okay to have doubts and two, it's okay to ask

questions and ask for evidence.

And I absolutely love that.

And I was just thinking, when sometimes when I talk to people about their, if

they have a faith or where their Christian faith is at, quite a lot of people don't

actually know what it is they think.

Christians in some respects, as well as those that, you maybe don't go to church.

So I have some kind of idea like we're talking today with someone about how

maybe science they're more of a scientific worldview rather than a faith worldview.

And I thought, that's interesting.

Why do you feel like those are two opposing worldviews, right?

So there's an assumption that if I think this, I can't think that

without really thinking it through.

I'm intrigued by your connection with Thomas here because he had doubts and I

think he recognised his doubts, didn't he?

And I think that's really the first starting point is

to recognise what you think.

John Harding: Yeah, I think you've got to be honest with God and

express your doubts to him.

That in the Psalms.

I think it was Soren Kierkegaard I know it was Soren Kierkegaard, who invented

the phrase, the leap of faith, and to go from where you are to perhaps as someone

who doesn't believe, or has questions, and perhaps has always thought that

science explains everything, which is a faith position really, to believing in

the resurrection requires a leap and the reason I was talking about Thomas and

using that as an illustration is because if you actually do the work and look

at the evidence for the resurrection, it's just not the sort of leap of

faith that perhaps people think it is.

And so I think it's helpful in today's modern Western worldview paradigm,

which is a tiny blip in the history of the world, let's be honest.

The Thomas takes and represents a little bit more of the scientific mind,

questioning, doubting, he wants empirical verification, he doesn't just want to

see, he wants to touch, he wants to see it for himself and verify it for himself.

That is the scientific world view and but the thing is, Thomas is a good scientist.

because he's willing to change what he thinks, based on the evidence that he

receives, rather than just some sort of confirmation bias or something like that.

He's willing, humble enough to accept the outcome of his

request and to change his mind.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I think, and that's really powerful, isn't it?

Because as again, chatting today, what fascinates me about the book, The Case

for Christ, because I read that early on in my Christian sort of exploration.

It was very powerful, very helpful book for me, and I

highly recommend people read it.

There's another one called Evidence That Demands a Verdict,

which was a similar thing.

Josh

John Harding: McDowell, superb series of books and videos,

you've got all of them on

Matt Edmundson: video on YouTube.

Yeah, super, super helpful.

People looking at the evidence of the resurrection.

There's a guy called J.

Warner Wallace, I think, who wrote Cold-Case Christianity.

Another interesting chap, he's a detective for a police department

in the States, I think he's still an acting detective as well.

And, for years has solved some of the hardest cold-case murders, which are

out there using his detectiving skills.

And again, started out, not as a Christian, not as a believer, was

going to go and investigate the resurrection, more or less, disprove it.

Like Lee Strabel, who was a journalist, he wanted to look at the evidence for

the resurrection, was going to disprove it, because I think, was it a girlfriend

or somebody had become a Christian and he wasn't that happy with it?

So he went away and looked The Evidence, the same with Josh McDowell

in Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

And the outcome of all of that is they all looked at it and went, Oh the

evidence is compelling, isn't it, really?

And so they all had a massive change of position and have consequently gone on

to become quite significant apologists, I think, for the Christian faith, people

who will defend the Christian faith.

John Harding: Yeah, and it's just not true to say that you can't have a scientific

mind or be a highly scientific qualified person and not believe and I was looking

around as I was preaching about the resurrection looking at people with all

sorts of PhDs in biology And that sort of stuff in the frontline community

And there are far greater minds than anyone I've ever met that uphold the

basic tenets of the Christian faith, and believe these things to be true.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

I can't remember the chap's name, there's a guy that head

up the Human Genome Project.

He was a guy that started out as an atheist, wasn't he, when

he started the actual project?

What's his name?

yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

It'll come back to me.

Somebody will put it in the comments, but he basically, he set out the human

genome project and then became a Christian as he was going through it, because

he was looking actually at scientific information and data going, there

has to be something more behind this.

And so it's really interesting listening to his story.

So yeah I totally get it.

That actually the mindset is to go look at this, look at the story, look

at the evidence for yourself, do the research, understand what it is you think.

But then actually be open to make a decision based on that evidence.

John Harding: And I would say to anyone, put God to the test in this.

And the Bible says, do not test the Lord your God, but other

times we're allowed to test him.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

John Harding: In the sense that.

If you're really searching, ask God.

Say, God, if you are real, help me.

If you're real, reveal yourself to me.

If you're real, take me on that journey of discovering you.

I would honestly put God's reputation on the line in doing that.

I believe it's something that actually Jesus delights in responding to.

So all of these people we've mentioned, they've had open, searching, inquisitive

hearts, and in that search, It's the Lord Jesus that has been leading

them towards himself, and I think the Lord Jesus would do that for

anyone who is searching and asking.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I totally agree.

I totally agree.

I think the only thing that I would say is just be a little bit careful.

I've come across quite a few people that have gone, God, if you're real,

then make this happen in my life.

Like it's a conditional type thing.

And I think perhaps a better prayer is, God, if you're real, reveal yourself

to me and then just be aware of unexpected ways that he will do that.

John Harding: Yeah, or let me know your love.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

John Harding: Yeah.

One of our obstacles for humanity and you're absolutely right, Matt.

And I think that's why it's good to have a conversation

and clarify each other's ideas.

I think one of our obstacles to really knowing God is a reality in his

presence is our human sinfulness, the fact we are not holy as God is holy.

And so another powerful prayer is to really seek God and say, God cleanse

me of my sin, purify me because of the work of Jesus on the cross.

And it is incredible when, and we often use the four points,

don't we, to talk about that.

And you can just Google the four points.

Sin might seem like an old fashioned word.

We're not going around telling people they're sinners.

We're just saying all humans, have fallen short of God's perfect standard and a

holy God does not associate with sin.

And so when we invite him to come and cleanse us, when we invite him to

come and purify us, the religious word for that we might use is repentance.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

John Harding: It is in those moments, let me tell you that we most

powerfully encounter his presence.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And it's amazing stuff, isn't it?

And this is what Easter is all about.

You sit there at Easter and you're just like, the Resurrection, I think it was

the Apostle Paul said, and we've talked about this before on Crowd, but the

Apostle Paul said, if the resurrection is not real, then our preaching is in vain.

In fact, your whole faith is futile.

And the resurrection then is the central point, isn't it, to Christianity.

If there's no resurrection, there's no Christianity.

And I read this great I can't remember who said it, but I've used it many times.

So I'd love to give them credit, but it's this question, there's no doubt in the

minds of many scholars that Jesus lived.

In fact, most people would now agree that Jesus lived.

There are very few people that will look at the evidence and

go that Jesus was not real.

We know that Jesus lived and therefore we know that he died.

The question is not whether Jesus lived and died, the question is

whether Jesus died then lived, right?

And it all comes down to the Resurrection.

Was the Resurrection real?

Because if it isn't, then the whole Christian faith is futile.

And actually the Bible talks about that, doesn't it?

John Harding: Absolutely.

It's, and I think that we've, if you're a follower of Jesus, I'd

really encourage you we've got to force the issue more in society.

We're not just a bunch of nice people who believe a nice story of a set

of religious rules and regulations.

That is not what Christianity is.

It really isn't, and Jesus and the Gospel certainly leave no scope

for that of the New Testament.

We believe in some outrageous claims.

We believe that God came to Earth, like we're saying in the talk, and we

believe that He died for us, and we believe He rose again on the third day.

These are we believe things that are unbelievable.

But we believe by faith, we have that conviction and that living

reality because of our experience of Jesus, our encounter with Jesus.

His story becomes our story and that's why we believe.

We're not just believing like a series of like plausible ideas.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

The Apostle Paul put it this way, didn't he?

He said, I pray that you would know the length, breadth, depth, height of the love

of God, which surpasses all understanding.

And when he talks about knowing the love of God, it's knowing not

just here, but here, isn't it?

It's an experiential type thing.

It's a head knowledge.

It's a heart knowledge.

You could know that your parents love you but that doesn't mean that to

know that means to experience that.

Otherwise it's all, it doesn't make any kind of sense, does it?

If you don't experience the love, it doesn't really work out.

So I think you're totally right.

There is this experience when you come to God, which you experience the love of God.

And I think praying that prayer, if you're not in church, if you're not a

Christian yet, and you're searching.

You're looking for the evidence as you're searching to say God, I pray

that I experience, show me, help me experience the love of God in some way.

I think it's really powerful stuff.

So yeah, I think in fact, let me just check in the comments.

Miriam says here, oh, she says, by the way, she loves I love you, John

Harding and Matt Edmundson so much.

Bless you, Miriam.

That's super cute.

I love that.

Yeah.

She's an absolute legend.

I've heard so many people say that we need to ask God who he is rather

than do this or do that for me.

Which I think is a fair comment, isn't it?

It's like God reveals who you are.

John Harding: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

God is love.

Exactly.

And I think that's really, some really good learning for us, isn't it?

We seek his face first, not his hand.

And if you're just like in a desperate situation saying, God, get me out of this.

Maybe not, but really he's looking for relationship.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

That's what he's looking for.

Yeah, absolutely.

Matt's put, I love that Jesus chooses to connect with us through the brokenness.

Amen.

Yeah, what do you think he means by that?

John Harding: You would have to ask him, but I do agree with it.

That's what I'm saying.

Amen.

I think, Jesus himself said, it's not the health you need a doctor.

And really what I've learned in life is it is my own flaws and failures

and weaknesses and shortcomings, it's in those spaces where I recognize

that I encounter most of God's presence and most of God's love.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

Such a powerful point.

Such a powerful point.

It's interesting, isn't it, when you're the church pastor, you're the

church leader, and you're in the run up to Easter, you're thinking about

all kinds of different things, right?

Because Easter is like I say, the most significant, we love

Christmas, we love Easter, the two things that Christians really like.

And you're, you're running up to Easter with your church leaders hat on.

But that aside, John, as you're approaching Easter, what's

your personal meditation?

What's your personal prayer?

What are some of the things that you're thinking about?

John Harding: Like we are from a church tradition that might

be considered quite modern.

Might be considered evangelical, might be considered charismatic,

we don't do tradition very well.

This deal with my family and my wife that I can't get up that early

with my resurrection playlist.

Like I am just up at the crack of dawn on Easter Sunday because everything in

me is so excited and so joyful at the reality that I've experienced in my own

personal resurrection from death to life.

Yeah.

One of the things I love about the traditional church and the

liturgical church is that the church calendar through Lent, that 40 day

period of mourning, prepares us for the celebration of Easter Sunday.

And often when we don't go through that, I've been in church services on Easter

Sunday where we felt like we have to tell the whole story and sing about

the cross and Good Friday, for example, which I'm not saying we shouldn't do.

I'm just saying.

We have these moments that are punctuated that allow us to celebrate

the different parts of the story.

Yeah.

I try to do that in various ways we went to the Cathedral for

Communion on Friday, Good Friday,

Matt Edmundson: yeah,

John Harding: to serve celebrate communion together.

Holy Saturday for me, honestly, the Saturday between Good Friday, the death

of Jesus and Easter Sunday is so important because all of our lives are lived,

as it were, in a Holy Saturday moment.

You've got the tragedy of the cross, the brokenness of the

cross, where everyone genuinely thought that the story had ended.

It was hope had gone, it was like, this is it, this is all, and then you've got this

Easter Sunday celebration, but they didn't know that it was coming, and so most of

life is in the space between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, we're at that point of

waiting for the promise to be fulfilled, and so I like to engage with that.

Over that weekend, I like to have a more quiet, reflective type of day on that day.

Full disclosure we're doing a full house renovation, so I was up at

the crack of dawn on Saturday, shifting bricks and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stuff you've gotta do with the

Matt Edmundson: renovation, stuff you've gotta do,

John Harding: but I do think Lend takes us on that journey of longing and waiting.

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: For the breakthrough.

Yeah.

And that's super powerful , you're living in that tension between Friday and Sunday.

And if there's anything, the thing I love about the resurrection is, and we see this

in the life of Thomas and you drew to that is here was a man that went from doubting.

to utter transformation, to the point where he was willing

to die and be martyred for his faith, along with all the others.

If it was a hoax, he would have caught, why would you die for a hoax?

You just wouldn't, would you?

I just, I don't see.

John Harding: You'd recant.

You'd recant.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely.

And he didn't, and his life was transformed.

And that's, for me, one of the most compelling things.

And I sit back at Easter and I thank God for the resurrection of Christ, I do, and

I thank God that my life is transformed.

I'm not where I need to be, but my life is definitely transformed, and the

power of transformation is incredible.

John Harding: If you think about it, Matt a person's biggest issue is

not that they are sinful and need to be not sinful or bad and need to be

good or broken and need to be fixed.

I think the Bible's quite helpful in understanding the

fundamental nature of humans.

Our biggest issue without Jesus is that we're spiritually dead.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah,

John Harding: in need of a spiritual resurrection.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah,

John Harding: and so in that sense Jesus becomes the first fruits

the Old Testament prophesies.

It'll be the first fruits of resurrection and so when we receive Christ what happens

is the resurrected Christ resurrects us.

Baptism is a reenactment retelling of that.

It shows that we've come out of a grave and our souls, our very spirits

have been made alive in Christ.

And so we're talking from a different perspective here.

We're talking about people whose spirits have been woken up into a new reality

to be able to relate to the living God.

And so why wouldn't we be excited and want the

Matt Edmundson: world to know that?

Yeah, absolutely.

Paul said it best, I have been crucified with Christ.

It's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives within me.

And I think that's the power of it is that it's the wonder, the marvel

that the resurrected King now lives inside each and every one of us.

Talk about transformation, right?

It's just a powerful thing to meditate and think about.

Miriam says that what was it she said here?

So she was up at five this morning for a walk with her

friends to watch the sunrise.

They did a sunrise service near her house, which is a great idea.

Peter in Spain, we had the foot washing on Maundy Thursday and a Eucharist service.

Also a service on Friday.

Then a celebration service this morning, the gathering of

our three churches together.

It was awesome.

Pastor Alexander's in the comments.

Happy Easter to Pastors John and Matt and all the brothers.

And so happy Easter to you, Pastor Alexander.

It's great to see you.

Happy Easter, Pastor Alexander.

Yeah, it's great that you're here.

Yeah, whatever you do to celebrate Easter, celebrate it,

because it is a celebratory day.

Christ has risen.

He has risen indeed.

And that has amazing impact on you, and it has amazing impact on me.

And if you've yet to experience the resurrection of Christ, obviously

we invite you to, as we've been talking about all day, just to go

have a look, figure it out, check out the evidence, see for yourself.

And if you've got any questions, feel free to reach out to either

John or myself here at Crowd Church.

We would love to talk to you.

In fact, I'll put that on the screen now.

You can reach us at www.

crowd.

church or on the social media platforms Instagram and Facebook at crowd church.

I think we're also on TikTok.

In fact, I know we're on TikTok because did I tell you this, John,

that Stormzy reposted Dan Orange's?

Sorry about that.

I'm getting a bit carried away, but yeah, Stormzy reposted.

So we know, I know we're on TikTok.

So yes.

I did not know

John Harding: that.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Dan Orange did a little chat on prayer and, we take little

clips from the talk, so there'd be a clip from your Easter talk.

And we put it out on social media and stuff.

And yeah, Stormzy, he reposted Dan Orange's chat on prayer.

Dan Orange walked about a foot taller for about a week, as he went viral

a little bit, which was amazing.

But yeah.

No, that's cool.

So reach out to us on social media at Crowd Church.

We would love to hear from you if you've got any questions whatsoever.

And of course, let me just also tell you that if you'd like to join us during the

week, we would love to hear from you.

We have midweek groups that you can join us on Zoom community groups.

And if you are exploring Christianity, and you want to know more about it we are

running an online alpha course, which it is not too late for you to come and join.

If you would like to do that, just head over to crowd.

church forward slash alpha, and you'll find out more information about that.

We're on week four be great.

No, week three, actually, we're going to do, Why Did Jesus Die?

Great time to come and join us if you want to find out more about the

Christian faith as we go through that.

That's on a Wednesday evening, 8.

30pm UK time.

We are running that online now, so that'd be great.

See, I think there's 8, 10 people registered for that, so

if you want to come join us.

We'd love to see you in there.

Absolutely.

What is coming up next week?

I'm being reminded to tell you.

What did I say it was, John?

Do you remember?

Oh, it's Dave Connolly.

Dave

John Harding: Connolly.

Dave Connolly's speaking as part of the wholeness series.

And when you said that, I thought he's bringing such a wealth of experience

and wisdom to talk about wholeness.

So I'm looking forward to that.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, he's going to be with us.

And so do make sure you join us for that.

Make sure you like and subscribe to Crowd Church wherever you're watching this from,

listening to on the podcast, wherever it is, just stay connected with us.

It'll be great to stay connected with you.

Oh, I've just been reminded there is no midweek Zoom prayer meeting Zoom

this week because it's the Easter holidays, but Alpha is happening.

That's a fair point, actually.

Thanks, Matt, for the reminder.

I get it all wrong, John, all the time.

I get it.

I don't know why they give these to me, I do, cause I'm going to get it wrong.

Ah, that's awesome.

John, anything else from you, man, on this Easter Sunday?

John Harding: Only to say, have a blessed Easter.

And if you've got Bank Holiday Monday off, use it to draw

close to Jesus a little bit.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's a really good idea.

For those of you in the UK, if you're outside of the UK, you have

no idea what we're talking about, basically, we get tomorrow off.

It's like a national holiday, isn't it?

Easter Monday.

It's a long weekend.

I don't know if we have any other long weekends, but we get Good Fridayand

then Easter Monday off as well.

So yeah, just relax to Sabbath a little bit and just think about

the resurrection of Christ and Christ in you, your hope of glory.

Be great to think about that.

Absolutely.

Good point, John.

Thank you so much for joining me, brother.

It's been fantastic as always.

You are an absolute legend and thank you for going all the way to

India just to do that talk for us.

It was really you.

Always a pleasure.

Alright boys and girls, have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

I'll see you next week.

Happy Easter.

He is risen.

He is risen indeed.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Bless you.

Bye for now.

Thank you so much for joining us here on Crowd Church.

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It has been awesome to connect with you and you are awesome.

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God bless you.

Bye for now.