Is Marriage Actually Outdated or Just Misunderstood?

Matt Edmundson: Hello and welcome to Crowd Church coming to you live

from Liverpool this Sunday night.

My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether this is your first time or whether

you've been part of our journey since the beginning, it's brilliant to be with you.

We are a community of people figuring out what it means to follow Jesus.

In real life, not the polished, perfect version, but you know, the

messy, genuine, brilliant reality of this whole thing called Christianity.

So let me give you a little roadmap of what's gonna be

happening over the next hour.

We'll have a talk, lasts about 20 minutes looking at the topic of

relationships, which is the section of our series becoming whole, that we are

looking at exploring how Christ makes us whole across every domain of life.

After the talk, we've got conversation streets.

Oh yes.

This is where we dig into what you've just heard, and you get

to be part of that discussion.

So if you're with us live, jump into the comments, share your questions,

your thoughts, and your stories.

And of course, if you're watching on Catchup or listening to the podcast, then

thanks for being part of the Crowd too.

Right?

Let's meet your hosts and let's get started.

Sharon Edmundson: Well, hello and welcome to Crowd Church.

Uh, my name's Sharon and I'm hosting tonight along with the fabulous Dan.

Dan Orange: Hello.

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, it's great to be here.

Um, tonight we have, well.

We're part in a series to do with becoming whole, and we've been doing this for

many, many weeks and we're in a section about relationships at the moment.

And tonight we have the fabulous Matt, I can say that he's my husband.

Uh, he is actually gonna be talking about marriage.

So, um, yeah, Dan, yeah,

Dan Orange: this'll be good.

Will it?

I'm looking forward to the talk and I'm looking forward to

Conversation Street afterwards.

So ask all your questions.

We actually got someone talking about marriage and we've got the couple.

Here.

Yes, we do.

So we should get some good answers.

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's potentially a, a, a quite a tricky subject I think these days.

Um, but I've listened to the talk already.

Uh, well, I've, um, read the talk already and it's got some just

like really fabulous stuff in it.

So what's gonna happen is we're gonna have Matt do the talk now, and then

after that we are gonna, me and Dan are gonna chat about it and our thoughts.

Matt's gonna join in the conversation, but we also want

you to join in the conversation.

Do as he's talking, put your comments in the in the comment section and we will

try to pick up on those as we go along.

So I will hand over to Matt.

Matt Edmundson: Well, thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

It's great to be here.

And like Sharon said, uh, we are talking about marriage tonight and I'm

doing that my, whilst my wife is here, so I have to be on my best behavior.

Uh, and so, uh, a very, very warm welcome to you Crowd Church.

Great to be with you this evening.

Uh.

Is marriage outdated or is it just misunderstood?

That's the question that we are gonna be looking at tonight.

So let me start by asking you a simple question.

What makes marriage different from actually living together?

Good question.

Right now, early in my Christian walk.

I couldn't actually explain why a piece of paper and a religious ceremony

actually mattered other than to say it was something sacred before God.

That's probably about as far as I could get.

Right.

Uh, because deep down I thought maybe actually there wasn't that much difference

between marriage and just living together.

Maybe marriage is just a sort of an outdated institution.

I dunno what you think to, maybe it's something.

We clung to out of habit or maybe a sense of religious duty.

Now, my parents, uh, divorced when I was young.

I was about nine years old.

Dad moved out.

Uh, I saw him every weekend and on Tuesdays, and I love both my parents both.

Uh, yeah, they are.

Uh, wonderful people in so many ways, but neither was exactly

a poster child for successful relationships for me growing up.

Um, and that's okay.

You know, so when someone challenged me about marriage, part of me thought,

well, maybe marriage is actually just a really expensive party, you know, for

something that probably won't last anyway.

But looking back, I can see that the problem isn't, that

marriage itself is broken.

But my thinking about marriage was what was actually broken.

So spoiler alert, fast forwarding all the way to the end, I do not think,

uh, that marriage is outdated to answer the question in tonight's title.

Uh, but I do wonder if the problem is that we've forgotten what marriage actually is.

And to be fair, to my younger self, I wasn't the only one.

That thought the way that I did.

In 1970, which I appreciate is going back a long time.

Uh, seven out of 10 adults were married in the UK.

Today it's four out of 10, and it's predicted that by 2050, only three out

of 10 people will actually be married.

Right.

So what's happening?

Is it a case of we just don't like each other anymore?

Maybe that's what's going on.

I don't think it is.

Uh, I think the reality has been actually, there's been a shift from marriage

to cohabitation to living together without actually getting married.

And that.

Increased by 144% in the last 30 years.

I'm not gonna give you too many stats tonight, but I find

these stats quite interesting.

Uh, so we've substituted marriage with living together, thinking in essence

that they're probably the same thing, which is why the question, what makes

marriage different from living together?

A really, really interesting question for a Christian.

The cultural message, I think is pretty clear, right?

Marriage is outdated, it's unnecessary, and actually.

According to certain sectors of society, it's potentially harmful.

I mean, why would you tie yourself down legally when you can just live together?

Why make promises you might not be able to keep and living together first, right.

Makes all the sense in the world.

It's a bit like, if I can put it, so crudely, test driving a

car before you buy it, right?

And I get it.

I do.

Growing up, uh, marriage didn't look.

Like, uh, something you'd want to sign up for.

Like I said, my parents got divorced and it kind of taught me that marriage

ends and that people fall out of love and that promises get broken.

As a teenager, I have, I had no problem, uh, having more

than one girlfriend at a time.

It was, it was almost like a competition, if I'm honest with

you, between me and my mates.

Uh, another notch, another number.

You know, the conquest became more important than the person.

Not a great way to treat, uh, relationships.

I was unkind.

Never really given myself to the other person, didn't trust them, and I cheated

because that's what guys did, right?

At least.

That's what I learned from the culture that was around me at the time.

This was my.

This was my broken thinking about marriage.

It was my broken thinking about relationships.

And when I first started going to church, I expected really to find more of the

same, you know, the same sort of broken relationships that I'd seen outside the

church, just with religious people, uh, pretending maybe that they were fine.

Um, and of course, what I found in the church wasn't perfect,

not by any stretch, but.

It was so very different, uh, from anything I'd seen before.

Not only was everybody, it seemed married, but actually most of them

seemed happy about it as well.

They enjoyed each other's company.

They laughed together, which just blew my mind.

They went on dates, who knew?

Right?

They held hands in public and everything.

Uh, and they were courteous to each other.

More than that, they invited you into their homes where you could see the real

life of their marriage and you would see how they did disputes and how they

did, you know, falling out and how they resolved that and how they supported

each other through difficult times.

So yes, they had arguments, but they remained respectful.

And the big one for me, which always spoke well to me.

Was actually, they always spoke well of their spouse.

Especially when their spouse wasn't there.

You'd never hear anyone bad mouth or tell dirty jokes.

So I started to see that marriage could be different, which is great, but to

get there, God had to fix my broken thinking about relationships and any

good place to start when you know you've got broken thinking is with the Bible.

Because it tells you what marriage is and what your responsibility as a

husband or as a wife is, which is one of the reasons maybe culture doesn't

like the idea of marriage because it actually carries this idea of

responsibility and not just responsibility on its own, but responsibility

before God, which I appreciate.

Neither of those things is a very popular idea.

But in Genesis writes, at the dawn of time, God gives us his

original blueprint for marriage.

It says in the book of Genesis, chapter two, verse 24.

Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his

wife, and they should become one flesh.

So in this tiny verse, we learn three very powerful things about

marriage, about biblical marriage and what it is that we should

really, really get our heads around.

And so the first one is this.

It says that they leave.

This isn't just about moving out of your parents' house,

although that's part of it.

Men listen up especially, uh, it's a fundamental shift where the

marriage bond takes priority over all other human relationships.

It is leaving your lifestyle of singleness.

It is leaving your way of doing things, and practically even it's about leaving.

Gifts or love letters from your ex as well.

It's about leaving this sort of unconscious expectation that you

have of your future spouse even.

Practical things.

I dunno if you had this done, how you do Christmas.

Yeah.

Um,

Dan Orange: that's a big one.

That's a big

Matt Edmundson: one, right?

How do you do Christmas?

Like with different traditions, uh, that you grew up with, your spouse grew

up with, everyone's got expectations about Christmas, you are leaving.

All of that behind.

And you are choosing to put your spouse first, above family,

friends, career, everything.

And I think this idea of leaving is a revelation in and of itself because

so many people that I know get married wanting to keep one foot, uh, in their

old way of living rather than leaving it.

If we get the revelation about leaving, I think it would change our

marriages, but it's not the only thing.

It is the first thing you leave, uh, but it's not the only thing.

So second.

Genesis talks about holding fast, hold fast to your wife.

The Hebrew word means to stick like glue, which I think is a really good thing

to bond permanently, like super glue, you know, like five minute epoxy resin.

Uh, for those of you who work in wood, uh, it's to just permanently bond, right?

Um, it's not.

It's not a, oh, let's see how it goes, or as long as we're happy.

It is a deep unbreak, unbreakable.

It's a deep unbreakable covenant connection, uh, that encompasses emotional

and spiritual and physical unity.

Um, if you hold fast, if you bond.

To your spouse.

You don't need to have an emotional affair with another person.

And men especially, listen, if you hold fast to your wife, you will not

need to look at another woman ever.

And if you do, if you catch yourself doing that, remind yourself hold

fast to your wife right now.

In the Old Testament, uh, there is a book written by a guy called Malachi, which is

one of the coolest names on the planet.

Uh, he was a prophet and he wrote, um, that the Lord was witness between you

and the wife of your youth, to whom?

You have been faithless though.

She's your companion and your wife by covenant.

Some really strong language, some really choice words.

God is a witness to how men listen.

God is a witness to how you treat your wife.

She's your partner and your companion by covenant.

And God doesn't just see this.

Uh, as a human agreement, like some kind of contract.

It's a sacred covenant with God, the creator of the universe, watching

and participating and witnessing, and you have to hold fast to that you've.

Got to be committed because this takes effort.

It takes intentionality.

You cannot be passive in your marriage because if you are, I think you're

gonna head for danger and you are gonna get there very, very quickly.

You have to hold fast to your spouse.

Genesis also tells us, uh, beyond holding fast, uh, beyond leaving,

it talks about becoming one flesh.

Now one flesh.

This is the mystery at the heart of marriage.

Two separate people becoming one unified whole in every aspect of life, especially.

But not solely in the area of sex, which we are gonna talk about a little

bit, uh, because this was a massive barrier, uh, to Christianity for me

personally, for a long time when I was 18 and driven by, well driven and fueled

by testosterone and cultural messaging, uh, the idea that sex before marriage

was wrong, seemed completely outdated.

Uh, I did not.

Enjoy it.

Did not think it was right to quote George Michael, that well-known sage of wisdom.

Uh, sex is natural.

Sex is good.

Not everybody does it, but everybody should.

And I was firmly in that school of thought, right?

I was there.

And so when I started going to church, when I was about 18 years

old, there was this silver head, uh, preacher, an older guy, and it felt

honestly like he talked about sex.

Every single week, he could not get off the topic it seemed.

And I remember sitting there in church thinking there was

something wrong with that dude.

Uh, because he would talk about it as though it was an evil thing,

as though something was wrong.

And I didn't listen to him for months.

I thought he was a bit of a nutter.

I'm not gonna lie, I thought.

I thought the gospel thing.

Okay.

And I remember praying in church probably for the first time

actually after hearing the gospel.

And I remember saying to God, and I can picture where I was when I

said this, God, I can believe all of this, this whole gospel thing,

that Jesus came and died for me.

Just do not ask me to stop having sex before marriage, um,

because I'm not gonna do it.

And it was a real barrier for me.

You know, how could something so natural be so wrong?

But eventually.

Um, it took a while, a little while, but eventually, uh, I came to a place of

surrender when God knocked, uh, on the door, um, of my heart, and that's where I

gave that part of my life to him as well.

Every part of it.

I didn't particularly enjoy the idea of doing that.

I didn't.

Didn't think it was right.

Um, I'm not gonna lie, uh, but I knew that God had a better plan in this and

I just had to find out what that was.

Now I know, uh, some of you watching this are navigating,

uh, complicated situations.

Maybe you've recently come to faith and you are living with someone you love.

Perhaps you've even bought a house together.

Maybe your partner is not yet a Christian, but you are.

They're still on their own faith journey, and I think there are real life

situations that don't have simple answers.

Right.

It's not as straightforward as me going, well, you should, should not

do that because I don't think that's actually right, and I'm not here

to add guilt or pressure to you to make a hasty decision that might not

make sense for you or your family.

What I want you to hear is that God's design for marriage and sexuality

isn't about limiting your life, though.

It's about showing you something beautiful and something that's worth moving toward.

When Jesus met people in complicated situations, he didn't condemn them.

He just kind of, he showed them a better way, didn't he?

And he gave them grace for the journey.

So if you are in one of those situations, let me encourage

you to do a couple of things.

One.

First, don't hide it from God.

He knows about it.

You can talk to him about it.

You can pray, uh, without feeling condemned.

He's not shocked by your circumstances.

And I think sometimes we, we think something's wrong, so we just lock that

away in our hearts, which is what I did for a little while, but actually talking

to God about it and bringing it to God.

I think is a, is a perfectly sensible thing to do.

The second thing, uh, I would probably go and have some honest conversations with

someone you know and trust and actually respect in the Lord, as in there are,

they are a good, solid Christian who've been a Christian for a while, um, and that

can help you navigate what's going on.

And third, remember that God's grace covers you whilst you

are figuring all of this out.

So if it's a complex situation, if you're in those situations, don't panic.

Don't worry.

It's okay.

Just enjoy the journey with God.

Now that said, if you are already a Christian or you were a Christian, a

Christ follower, and then you started to have sex outside of marriage, um, I

think that's a different situation, if I'm honest with you, and if I'm gonna

be totally straight 'cause of time.

I think that requires repentance because you are acting against

what you know to be true.

Right.

And I think that has complications on your marriage.

It really does.

And we'll, we'll come to that.

But why?

I mean, let's ask, let's be real, right?

Why uh, is this a problem?

What's it all about?

Because like I said, I had to definitely understand God.

God would not spoil my fun.

Surely.

It's okay if you love each other, right?

Well, remember Malachi said that she is your companion and your wife by covenants.

So marriage is a covenant, something we hold fast to, we leave everything else.

We hold fast and covenant to our spouse and we become one flesh.

And I think even our biology, uh, is geared towards that.

So we can see that sex is more than just phy physical pleasure.

It is the ultimate covenant act, uh, creating one flesh in

the most intimate way possible.

And I think when you understand that casual sex becomes impossible

because you're not just having fun.

You understand from scripture, you're making covenant promises to that

person with your body that maybe your heart isn't ready to keep.

And I think you're given away part of yourself that was designed to bind you

to one person, your spouse, uh, for life.

But why should I care?

Why should I care what an ancient book says about relationships?

Right?

Why should I leave?

Why should I hold fast?

Why should I hold the sacredness of becoming one flesh?

Honestly, I think you do that because the principles actually work.

Yes, you do.

Now, the research, uh, actually validates this idea.

This, uh, validates God's idea for marriage works in measurable ways.

Like you are gonna have two to three times higher satisfaction.

Um, if you are a sexually exclusive couple, 50% lower divorce rates.

For those who prioritize their relationships, more

marriages stay together.

If the.

Couples don't live together before they get married, which

is interesting, isn't it?

Perhaps you can dismiss the source.

Maybe you're not, you know, into God.

Maybe you think this is all a bit weird, Matt, I'm not gonna lie.

Uh, but you can't dismiss the outcomes, the principles of covenant marriage work.

If you want a good marriage, God's way is definitely the best.

So I don't think marriage is outdated.

I think it's timeless right now.

Early in my Christian walk, I had a tape series.

Shows you how long ago it was.

It was on tape.

Uh, a tape series.

If you dunno what a tape series is or if you dunno what a tape was,

uh, ask your parents and if they don't know, yeah, you're gonna

have to ask your grandparents.

Sorry.

Uh, it just is what it is now.

I had six of these things, six tapes, six hours of teaching on

the topic of covenants, right?

And I wore those tapes plumb out, how much I listened to that message.

I listened to it over and over again because I knew there was

something I had to get from my head.

To my heart, there was something that God had in there, so I

immersed myself in that topic.

Remember I had broken thinking, how do you resolve broken thinking?

You get into the Bible, and for me, I looked at this topic all

about covenant, and it was in that.

Study that I stopped dating.

I made this decision to stop dating, uh, in my Christian,

in my early Christian life.

I didn't put a time limit on it, but it ended up being a couple

of years, uh, which in itself is a bit of a miracle for me.

Not gonna lie.

Uh, I took time to study the scriptures, like I said, on covenant, on marriage,

on relationships, on this idea of sex.

I stood at it.

From cover to cover, and I wrote out all of these ideas that I

gained over that brief time, and I put them in a little mini book.

Um, the first thing that I ever wrote down, really, so you can take a look at

this for the cover Design, A Guide to Date and Sex and Marriage by Matthew Edmundson.

Notice how, how graphically the M turns into the e.

Awesome.

That's awesome.

I wrote this in 95.

I know that.

'cause it says Frontline Church on the bottom.

Um, and that's when I worked for Frontline.

So this is, this is what I did.

Um, the other day.

I got a, the other day, a couple weeks ago actually, I got a text

message from my friend guy called Tony Odin who's been on Crowd.

Um.

He just moved house, moved house a couple weeks ago, and when he moved house,

he sent me that photo that you just saw because he's found, I think, the

only copy of that thing in the world, which is promised to use as blackmail.

So, thanks, tone.

Um, in fact, he and Ian Dowsett, who's also been on Crowd, uh, were my best men.

And, uh, you'll see in this photo, uh, there's a copy of

the book cover in front of them.

They were using it in their best man's speech.

Uh, let me tell you, there was banter, there was laughter.

They ripped into me.

Uh, and quite rightly so, if I'm honest with you, 'cause I would've

done exactly the same if it was them.

But lemme tell you, it was such a formative time for me, um, because

I had to really seriously rewire.

My thinking, God had to do a work in me about relationships.

And that study, which lasted at least two years, that mini book

actually as cheese testic as that book probably is, I don't read it now.

Um, it actually changed my life.

So when Sharon and I met, um, the question wasn't whether I could marry her.

I knew pretty quickly actually that I could, um, the question was whether

I wanted to be in covenant with her.

You know, you think about that question differently because a covenant is a

laying down of your life for someone else.

And it took me a few weeks to make that decision, not because I

was uncertain about my feelings.

I was very certain about those, but because I understood the weight of

what I was committing to, we didn't live together before we got married.

We didn't have sex outside of marriage.

We did it God's way.

We did it the right.

Um, and I knew that I was entering into a covenant, not a contract, and I knew

that God had witnessed this whole thing.

He witnessed our marriage, he'd got involved and it was serious and

it was for the rest of our lives.

And lemme tell you, it was a great decision, right?

Yeah.

You sure

The best decision ever?

Oh, yes.

Uh, now I was not looking for a way out when we got married because I

understood what I was getting into, right?

It's really important you don't look for a way out when you know

what it is you're getting into.

And I learned that how you see marriage, how you see relationships, how you see

your spouse, how you see sex, all of that dictates very much how you approach it.

So my testimony is simply this, that God took someone like me with

broken thinking about marriage and about relationships and restored me.

And I cannot begin to tell you how grateful I am because after 27 years of

marriage just looking at you to check his 26, 27, uh, I can tell you that is

still a really, really wonderful thing.

And not many people can say that.

So it does not mean it is easy or perfect.

Uh, practicing Christians still have a divorce rate of about 20

to 25%, which is both sad and bad.

Um, it's not great, but couples who attend religious services

regularly are 50% likely to divorce.

Um.

There's something in this, isn't there?

So yes, there is still divorce in the church, but if you are active

in your faith, that divorce rate halves and there's a shift in culture

too, which I find quite fascinating.

So Gen Z or Gen Z, do you know what's the right way to say it?

Do you know?

I dunno.

Gen Z.

In Gen Z.

Okay.

Uh, actually once, uh, marriage, they wanna get married

more than millennials did.

So 75% of Gen Z want to get married compared to only 43% of millennials.

That's a big swing, isn't it?

It seems like the new generation are not rejecting marriage, but rather this sort

of broken version of marriage that maybe they've seen or tried to have been sold.

So, you know what?

My three kids have grown up in a stable home.

Uh, well stable as I can make more stable 'cause of you rather than me.

Probably, uh, they've seen a marriage, uh, that works not because

we're perfect, although, you know, you are obviously very close.

But, um, but because we understand covenant, which means men.

In the covenant, in marriage, there is no room for porn, none whatsoever,

because that breaks covenants.

I keep short accounts with Sharon.

We know our roles, our purpose, and our drive is to honor Christ

and build his kingdom together.

So marriage is not outdated.

It is.

Timeless.

The problem isn't the institution.

I think it's that.

Maybe it's, we've forgotten what it actually is.

And when marriage becomes a covenant and not a contract, everything changes.

Research even tells us that.

Tells us, you know, if you are married, you are literally, uh, gonna

live longer and healthier lives.

Uh, but that change starts with understanding that isn't just

about you or another person.

It's about reflecting the eternal love between Christ and his

church to a world that is maybe forgotten what real love looks like.

So the question then isn't whether marriage is outdated or whether

marriage actually is worth saving.

The question is maybe, are you ready to discover what it was always meant to be?

That's its.

Sharon Edmundson: Thank you for that.

Uh, can I just say I am very, very grateful for all the, the study that

you've done with about marriage before we got married, and I'm also really grateful

for the work that God done in did in my own life before we got together because

I think without that we would've been an absolute disaster together, uh, between us

and our stuff, but um, yes, we would've.

Yeah.

So I think.

The, the talk, although we've been married 27 years, I love

hearing about Covenant again.

Um, and I think in that talk there was lots of challenge and there

was also lots that was really bumping heads with our culture.

So, yeah.

Um, so I wanna start this with, um, Heather has Oh, hi to

everyone in the chat by the way.

We've got, um, Heather, Matt a.

Jan.

Hello everybody.

Uh, but Heather's put really good point here.

Uh, she said, are we differentiating between a Christian marriage

and church versus a civil marriage versus living together?

Um, the answer to that is yes, absolutely.

What we're talking about here is.

Christian marriage.

So it's marriage for those who want to follow Jesus and want to follow

the pattern that God has laid down.

We're not talking about those outside the church, although, um,

I do believe that a lot of the, the principles are good for everybody.

Yeah.

You got any thoughts on that?

Dan Orange: No, I, I, I read that question and, um, yeah, I thought, well,

that's, that's, that's an easy answer.

And then I thought.

Oh.

What about when, if you, you've been married, let's say, whether it was a

church marriage or a civil marriage, then you both become Christians.

You, you might have said those vows before God or before someone that, you

know, there's not a sort of religious or Christian is, is there a decision there

that, that perhaps you should say to God?

We didn't know quite what we were going into then.

This is what we're going to do now.

Perhaps it was legal back then.

Yeah.

And now it's, now it's covenant.

Now it's, it's got something more than the the legal tick.

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, that's an interesting point.

I think that kind of touches on where Matt says that life

actually is quite messy, isn't it?

And yeah, I think there is that hole.

Okay.

We've.

We've committed to this marriage on one set of understanding, but actually,

um, now that we are Christians, our understanding is changing and

broadening or, you know, deepening with what God intended it to be.

And yeah, I think it's an exciting journey potentially.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Yeah, I think so.

And I, I think perhaps that's for me, one of the, apart from, let's

take, let's take God out of it.

Oh, you see what I mean?

In a minute?

Good luck with that.

Yeah.

The, the, the big thing with.

Cohabiting and, um, like living together and marriage is, there's

often not been a decision.

There's been lots of little, oh, you know, I like you.

Come back to mind, da, da, da.

Oh, stay over.

Oh, my toothpaste is with you.

You know, and, and you've got to that stage.

You're together.

You might have kids, but you've never perhaps looked at each other and said.

If we started this again, would I be with you?

Would this decision be for life?

Yeah.

Um, and then we can put God back in and see what is, you know, that he,

that it's a good idea what he's done.

That we have to make that decision.

And I think when you, when you come to Christ, it might be that decision to

make between each other and, well, not, perhaps not a decision because you're not

gonna break it, but to say to each other.

This happened, but now let's, let's take it forward into, into more, yeah,

Sharon Edmundson: yeah, definitely.

Um, I just wanna backtrack a little bit if that's okay.

So Matt started off by talking about how his, um, experience growing up

with his parents' divorce shaped his view of what marriage should be.

I just wondered if you've got any thoughts on that for yourself.

Dan Orange: Sorry, I was just.

I'm just reading my notes.

Distracted.

Okay.

Sharon Edmundson: So, um, yeah, how, how was your upbringing?

How did your upbringing Yeah.

Affect your view of marriage?

Dan Orange: Um, I had a really good upbringing.

Upbringing, so I've had been in sort of surroundings of, of

marriage, a stable marriage.

My dad was the pastor of church.

Those around him.

I, I don't know if when I actually came across someone that had been divorced,

you know, just even in that circle of friends, so it wasn't something that

I ever thought would, would happen.

Um, so that, that definitely affected my, um, uh, what what I see.

And I've had to have tricky conversations just recently with my,

my kids because around us they've seen marriages that aren't working.

And I had to say to 'em, do you know marriages don't

just, they don't just fail.

It's, it's like Matt said, you can't be passive in a, in a marriage.

You got to be active that something's got to happen for it to fail and,

and happen for it to succ succeed.

So I wanted to pass that on to, so they didn't see a round.

That, that mine and Lisa's marriage was what they saw as, as stable,

not what was going on around.

Matt Edmundson: It's a really interesting point.

There's, there's a, a parable in the Bible.

It's called the parable of the Sower, right?

And this is, it talks about seed being so, and it talks about.

The seed being God's word and how it bears fruit in our lives.

And in that it talks about how the deceitfulness of riches, the

cares of this world and the desire for other things come in and choke

the word and make 'em fruitful.

And the analogy it gives is like weeds growing up around

something that's fruitful.

And so both are growing together and eventually the weeds overcome it.

That's a process.

Right.

It's not like it just was really strong and fruitful and

then the next day it wasn't.

There's a process, there's a choking, and I think that's true

of so many failed marriages.

There's a process, like you say, and there's a process to

successful marriages and there's a process to marriages that fail.

It's not an instant thing.

So I think it's a really good point.

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

I just wanna say here as well that if you are someone who's divorced, please

do not, um, take this as condemnation in any way that we will stand here as people

saved by God's grace and that, you know.

All of us have got stuff and, um, but that God is able to redeem situations

and to bring good out of yeah.

Situations that might been really painful for you.

Um, so yeah, so please don't.

Take that as condemnation.

Um,

Dan Orange: yeah, absolutely.

We're not, not perfect.

And, and, and I, I would say if, if your marriage is struggling or even if it's

just, you know, doing fine, get, get to know other solid married couples and,

and chat with them and, and communicate.

We, um.

We had a tricky time in our marriage, probably about 10 years ago, and

Dave Cony was speaking last week.

We got him and his wife on the phone.

We said, you need to come over.

We were cleaning the oven.

We were cleaning the oven.

That's, that's what tipped it over.

Cleaning the oven.

Yeah.

I can't even remember all the details now, but we.

We are like for, for this day on.

We just, we get someone to clean our oven.

Now it's like, that's a well worth expense.

It might.

Marriage

Matt Edmundson: tip there.

Ladies and gentlemen.

Uh, you wanna stay married longer, get someone in to clean your oven.

Um, the trip now is to try and find a Bible verse.

Dan Orange: Yeah, I'll just say, that was just for us.

It was something that just tipped us over the edge and we thought, yeah,

we got a good solid married couple to come over and we just chatted

through things and the byproduct was.

Yeah, we move on.

But yeah.

Yeah.

Someone else squeezes our oven,

Sharon Edmundson: I think.

'cause that is the thing, isn't it?

Like God's plan for marriage is a fabulous one, but actually in reality,

sometimes it can be really difficult.

And I think most marriages hit these really tricky patches that sometimes

you, you need extra help to be able to.

Get through them.

Not just to survive, but to actually deal with the issues going on so that

you come out better, not so that you're just hanging onto a bad marriage for the

sake of it, but so that you can thrive and actually have a fabulous marriage.

Dan Orange: And do you know that that time has it helped our marriage because

our communication was on a level which was okay, but, but sometimes we,

both of us couldn't really talk about tricky things, so it didn't have that.

Yeah, capability now it's got that capability to go right to the treaty stuff

because we know we can talk through it.

So it was, it was a hard time, but it was, that's a really good

Matt Edmundson: point because you.

The resilience, I think in marriage comes from dealing with the

complicated situations well, um, well maybe the wrong word, but actually

determining to get through them Yeah.

Uh, in a, in a good way.

And working through those builds.

Resilience in your marriage.

So communicating about the tricky stuff in a way that is, I mean,

you're talking about conflict, aren't you, in a couple weeks.

Yeah.

Did you know this?

I did know that.

Yeah.

Yes.

So in a couple weeks we're gonna get into conflict and marriage and had, I would

if that oven story might come up again.

Uh, so yeah, we've got that in a couple weeks.

Um, basically Dan's gonna tell you how to argue Well, uh,

is, is what's gonna happen.

And to win No.

And to win.

Yeah.

Not if you're the husband.

Uh, that's not the goal.

But, um, but no, and I, I think that like, it's a really good point.

Resilience is a really important thing, and so if you are facing stuff

which is difficult or hard, it's not pleasant, but God will redeem that and

can redeem that so that you come out of it together as a couple much stronger.

Right.

I'm thinking of Stephen who was on the What's the Story podcast, and if

you've not listened to What's the story?

It's a podcast we've got on the Crowd Church website where

we get people in just to.

We just talked to 'em about what their story is, you know,

about their Christian journey.

Uh, and Steven came on and he talked about how when his wife had an affair,

um, they were young Christian couple and his wife had an affair, and he talks

about God's redemption through that.

Um, and it's a remarkable story and one I would strongly

encourage you to go and listen to.

Um.

I, I just remember doing that interview with him and thinking, man alive, the

grace of God is so strong because they had one of the worst situations you

face in marriage without any doubt.

And.

Yeah, they work through it.

That resilience is now built a much stronger marriage and he, he tells

you all about it in the story.

So definitely check it out.

Sharon Edmundson: We've also got, um, I'm trying to remember his name.

He's done talks for us, um, who's also been on, what's the story?

Who?

Mark Buchanan.

Yeah, Mark Buchanan.

And he talks about how his marriage actually fell apart

completely and didn't recover.

So, um, I think there's lots of different stories that.

Thought.

Well, just, I kind of encourage people whatever situation you're going through

right now in terms of marriage, um, yeah.

There, there's something on there in what's the story?

Yeah.

Um, absolutely.

Just going back to my original question, we've gone all that

like this, which is great.

Um, which was to do with our own experience.

I've said this before on Crowd, but um, when I first came to Liverpool,

um, I think I was 24 at the time.

Um, I remember coming into church and seeing.

A couple who were roughly the same age as me, but they'd been married for a year

and they looked like they still liked each other, and I was absolutely shocked.

And, um, I hadn't realized until that point that my expectation of

marriage was that you found someone, you fell in love, you got married,

and then you gradually hated.

Each other more and more each year.

Like if you had actually asked me what I'd thought about marriage, I would've

said something completely different.

But, uh, I would've said, you know, the biblically correct kind of stuff,

but actually what was in my heart, what had crept in without me even knowing

it was something completely different.

And, uh, I think, yeah, that was just a, that particular year God

just highlighted so much to me of what was actually in my heart.

And, um.

Yeah, it's just quite an interesting, well, I'm glad, I'm

Matt Edmundson: glad that changed Me too.

Yeah.

Because, you know, it was important that it changed.

Uh, yeah.

I think, and actually, let me, uh, just one other thing I want, I wanna

say actually, if you are a younger person watching this, um, and you

are not yet married, um, and you are entering into a, that sort of phase of

life where you're gonna start dating, um, or maybe you are already dating.

We have had a spate recently, um, of couples getting divorced, separating

who probably shouldn't have got married in the first place right now.

There's all kinds of things that we can talk about here,

but just being totally real.

What happened at the start of their relationship was that.

Neither of them had the courage to break it off because at the time there was very

much this belief that if you're dating more than six months as a Christian,

you probably ought to get married.

And I don't think that's a particularly helpful way to think.

Now, when we decided to get married, we decided to get married

Within, inside, what, five months?

Yeah, it was five months.

So I, I did the exact opposite of what I've just said in many ways.

And that's okay.

I mean, we knew that.

We knew.

I think what I'm saying to you is, um, marriage is a covenant.

It is life long, and I think in Christian circles, there can be a pressure to get

married young if you date for a while.

I want you to be aware of that pressure.

'cause sometimes the hardest thing you can do is to break off that

relationship if it's not right before God and you go forward and you get

married and at that point it's too late.

Um, because I don't think you can, I don't think you can go to your

spouse and go, ah, we should never got married in the first place.

I'm off.

I don't think that washes with God.

I think once you're in, you're in, you, you make that marriage work.

And we've had plenty of stories like that.

Um.

But I think early on in your, in your dating, I was gonna say dating career,

but actually it's, it's the wrong phrase, uh, in your, in your dating

life, I think just be really clear about what God is saying to you and what is

pressure and from an outside culture, um.

Because like I say, sometimes the most courageous thing you

can do is end the relationship.

Uh, and your 40-year-old self will thank you for that.

Um, but like I say, once you're in, you are in now there are some

instances for divorce and separation, which is worth highlighting.

The scripture talks about, we've mentioned this before on Crowd,

um, there's abuse, there's a adultery and there's abandonment.

The three A's.

Abuse is an obvious one.

And when I say abuse, I mean genuine abuse.

Not like, oh, you didn't cook me my favorite fish and chips tonight, I'm off.

Um, abandonment, you know, is obviously clear and adultery is clear.

That doesn't mean that they instantly create divorce, but you could argue

that there is scriptural grounds for divorce in that, that like God has

said, Hmm, okay, we can talk about this.

Um.

So I think that's worth understanding because I appreciate that divorce

does happen in church and it does happen for a number of reasons.

Um, and like Sharon said, we don't want to condemn anybody here because God can

redeem a whole great deal of things.

Um, so yeah, whether you are in marriage and it's difficult, God can redeem that.

Whether you're in a marriage and it's great, God can still

do some cool stuff with that.

Go and build God's kingdom together.

If you're divorced, God can redeem that if you're single.

Great.

God can be in that.

Uh, we're gonna talk about singleness, I think in the new year.

Uh, from memory, I can't remember it's coming up.

I can't remember the exact schedule.

Um, but whatever state you find yourself in whatever situation, I think God, uh,

can be with you and God can redeem it.

And, sorry.

Oh,

Dan Orange: it's alright.

The, um, and we talked earlier about having, you know, how you come.

Where you are in your life with God and, and in that relationship.

And, um, I always remember friends of my parents in Birmingham and

they had, um, an arranged marriage.

So Indian had an arranged marriage and they became Christians and

they'd, there'd been no dating, there'd be nothing like that.

They just, they were there because they.

You know, they were told to be, and they had kids and, um, they both

became Christians and the husband really prayed and said, God, I need

to find love for my wife, because that's not why I was together.

And he restored, he restored that and well, or created it.

And it's just a great story that, uh, I love to, I love to tell because I think

it's brilliant how God sees marriage and then, and then helps you, you know.

Work it.

Work it out.

Yeah.

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

I think in whatever situation it there is that just being

honest before God isn't there and saying, God, this is where I'm at.

I need your help.

What, how, you know, what do I do?

Um, yeah.

Um, just thinking about Matt's advice to people who are maybe dating or ever,

I've got, got my own one as well to add.

Just I think just because we have seen, like over the years, different marriages

fall apart and obviously we don't know the ins and outs of all of it, but there

are little trends that we kind of see.

One of them, Matt's already mentioned, I think another is where people.

Are not communicating like, um, what, what the issues are.

So maybe they're upset by their spouse or they're upset about something,

but they, they keep it to themselves and they don't talk about it.

Yeah.

They don't, um, resolve the issue and then the issue just gets bigger and bigger

and they hold onto the unforgiveness and then everything just gets seen.

In that light, and then it just becomes this massive thing.

So I think.

Uh, I think I've seen God, uh, God can overcome in us any issue if we are

actually willing to put them out on the table to say, God, this is the way

it is, to be honest, to repent of our own stuff, to forgive the other person.

But if we're not actually willing to do that, if you're with someone

who's not willing to talk about that stuff, it's probably not gonna work.

You need someone who's, um, yeah, where both of you.

You, you're gonna talk about stuff as it comes up.

Yeah.

And not hang onto to it.

Dan Orange: Yeah, absolutely.

Sharon Edmundson: Okay.

I've got another question.

Okay.

I've got a whole list here.

I'm just, uh, working through, just checking on the time.

Yeah.

We're okay.

So, um, what things about Christian faith in particular would you

say help a marriage thrive?

Matt Edmundson: Oh, that's a good question.

Who would like to say that one?

Forgiveness would be the obvious one.

Yeah.

Um, not that I ever need to give you of anything, sweetheart, but I feel like

it's gonna be the other way around a lot.

Like, you know, the, so I think practicing forgiveness

is a, is a big thing, isn't it?

You can't hold onto stuff.

You've gotta, you have to, as we, we joke about this, don't we,

in that, um, quite early on in our marriage, we read the book.

Uh, men are from Mars, women are from Venus.

Sharon Edmundson: I think we read a page.

It's not particularly a Christian book, it's not part,

but it has some useful stuff.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It does have some useful stuff, doesn't it?

And it's, the concept of the book was basically men and

women speak different languages.

Um, and so, uh, men speak Martian.

Women speak Uchin, I guess, I dunno what you speak in, in Venus.

Um, and so you speak different languages and so you end up doing this a lot.

And it, the, the most useful page in that entire book was a, a table

which says, this is what a woman says.

This is what a woman means, and this is what a man hears.

And all of them were different.

Right?

And it was the same the other way around.

This is what a man says.

This is what a man means.

This is what the woman hears, right?

They were all different.

And so.

Quite early on in our marriage, you, we would often do this thing where you

would say something and I would just go quiet and Sharon would just look at me

and go, are you translating right now?

Because I'm trying to take what I, what I heard and I'm, I'm, I'm trying to

go through this thinking which goes, ah, this is actually what she meant.

And it's different to what I heard.

And I think when you walk in that attitude of forgiveness, when you walk

in that attitude of this person is my life partner and I've gotten, you know,

I think nothing but the best of them.

And they've got my highest best at heart.

They might not communicate it in that instance.

So therefore what I've heard might not be what was intentionally communicated.

Uh, and I think that really helped us.

Sharon Edmundson: It really, really did.

Yeah.

Um, we did a lot of translating, I think in the early days.

I remember, um, after having several of these incidences where.

I would say something and Matt would like, it was just like the wall had

gone up and I'd be like, oh, I've obviously not said, I've not communicated

well, what I mean, because that wasn't the reaction I was expecting.

I remember just spending time before I then said like in future occasions

if I was upset about something.

I would just take myself off for a while and go, okay, this is how I'm feeling.

How can I communicate this in a way that he's actually gonna understand it?

And it did take quite a long of practice, didn't it?

Just to, um, try and communicate in a way that we would understand and wouldn't just

get each other's backs up all the time.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Being there too.

And also the tone of how you say something.

Still learning that one, I'm getting a bit better.

Sharon Edmundson: And I think that's relevant.

Not just to marriage, is it?

Yeah.

But just to any relationship because all of us, we've, we

all come from different places.

We all think slightly differently.

So it's like communicate it.

I mean, the, the scope for miscommunication is quite huge.

Yeah.

So we need to work on it.

Dan Orange: And I think sometimes.

Marriage can be looked at.

Like, it's just, it's just a challenge because there's two

different types of people, two types of people, different people.

And on some levels it is, but it's also amazing because I can do things that Lisa

can't and Lisa can do things that I can't.

And together we can do things that we couldn't do on our own.

And it, and it's great that that's, that's what a marriage is.

It's something that.

We, we've both got different, um, skills and, and traits.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Dan Orange: That too often.

It is, isn't it?

Like, oh, it's two people.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Dan Orange: Don't, don't get on together or they're trying to do things different.

They're trying to pull

Matt Edmundson: away.

Yeah.

If

Dan Orange: you pull to together, it's, it's great.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Like, I, I love that.

It's not a challenge.

You have to, to over, I mean, there are challenging times.

Yeah.

But it's not like.

It's not.

It's not.

When Paul said, I've got a thorn in my flesh, he wasn't referring to his wife.

Right?

It's just, it's not that kind of thing.

And I think when you look back at the dawn of time, God said, it's

not good for man to be alone, as in everything was good, right?

This was paradise.

And God went, I can take this up a notch.

I'm gonna give my wife.

And I think actually that is the understanding that you have

that life can be good here.

And if God calls you to singleness, that's perfect.

That's brilliant.

But if he calls you into marriage, that's gonna make you much, it's gonna

take you from good to very good, right?

It's, it's that kind of, it's that kind of thing, isn't it?

Where especially men, it's not good that men are alone.

Men spending time on their own for long periods of time.

I don't care what anyone says.

98% of the time, it's not good.

Genuinely speaking.

And if you are, if you are doing that, if you are spending all your time on computer

games by yourself, yeah, I think you need to get out to community because there's

gonna, you're gonna be watching porn, not all of you, but Do you know what I mean?

There's all kinds of stuff going on there and it's just not good to be

alone getting community get out there.

Um, if you're, even if you're not dating, even if you're not

married, just go and be with people.

'cause it's not good for men to be alone.

Mm.

Dan Orange: And when, sorry, just just on that topic, within we finish

one of the great things about that, um, marriage and being different,

and then marriage often has kids and you've got to have that different role.

Is that it?

It spills over Yeah.

Into life, doesn't it?

It, it has equipped me better to deal with people I work with to,

to deal with customers, you know, 'cause they're different to me.

They don't understand the.

You know what I, what I'm saying?

I have to convey it, and I've learned that through, through, through

marriage and through those situations.

It's not something that just, it's just standalone.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Sharon Edmundson: I was just going back to the question about how Christian faith

can help build good marriages, and I think Covenant is a massive one for me.

Um, probably don't have, I mean, Matt did talk about it, but don't

have masses of time To properly get into that, there's a great

Matt Edmundson: talk on the Crowd Church archive about Covenant.

Great Talk.

One of the best you'll ever.

Sharon Edmundson: Matt did that a few weeks ago.

Um, but there's this whole thing for me, um, I'm trying to find,

I've got all these notes written.

I'm just trying to find the bit now, um, where Paul in Ephesians.

5 31 to 32, I think it is.

Quotes back to Genesis, um, talking about marriage, but, and then

says this is referring to the mystery of Christ and the church.

And, um, the Bible opens with the marriage of Adam and Eve and it finishes with

the marriage, which is talking about, um, the marriage of, between Jesus

and his bride, the church and it, it's got loads of our marriage all in it.

And part of the reason for marriage is.

As a reflection of this relationship between Jesus and his church of that

whole, um, like mutually serving each other, that commitment for life, that

laying down your life for each other.

And I think that, uh, that whole image of, um, marriage being an, an, an image

of something higher, um, I think that.

That just helps me as well.

It's not just like this little institution down on earth, but it is

pointing to a deeper spiritual truth.

Yeah.

And, and a calling and, yeah.

I can't get all my words out.

It's big.

It's, and I think that having that something beyond just

what you are and the help.

God, the Holy Spirit.

Um, that just makes a massive difference.

I'm aware we are really running out of time now.

Um, have either if you got anything just quickly to add before we finish.

Dan Orange: I think if you, if you are in a marriage and you are thinking,

ca, can I, can I do this?

What is my responsibility?

Go and listen to that talk of Matts.

Because just that, that, um, legal and covenant legal, we can think we

just need a lawyer to get out of it.

Or what can I, what caveat or what clause can I, can I use Covenant is is

very different and it gives you that.

Let's work at this.

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

And, uh, I mean, we could talk about this for hours and in fact we're gonna talk

about it next week and the week after.

Um, so let me give a quick plug for next week.

We are talking about perhaps some of the most controversial

aspects of marriage next week.

Uh, roles.

Um, so we're getting into headship and submission.

What the, what is that all about?

Does the Bible really talk about that?

Um, so we are gonna get into that next week, which I'm really looking forward to.

Uh, 'cause I love the controversial topics.

I'm not gonna lie, this, why isn't that good fun?

Uh, so we're gonna get into that next week, and then, like I say, the

week after, we've got Dan talking about conflict and resolution.

So we've got the little mini marriage course, I suppose, uh,

in the whole relationship series.

Um.

So, yeah, that's my plug over.

Sharon Edmundson: Lovely.

Well, I think we will finish it there for tonight then.

Uh, hope to see you next week.

Um, oh yeah, we, if you want to connect with us now straight after this.

We are.

Where are we meeting?

It's coming up on the screen.

Google meets, uh, you can join us there just for a quick chat.

Say hi.

Um, other than that, if you could join us next week, that would be fabulous.

Uh, hope that you have an amazing week.

Goodbye.