When Your Parents Won't Let Go

Matt Edmundson: Hello and welcome to Crowd Church, coming to you live

from Liverpool this Sunday night.

My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether this is your first time or whether

you've been part of our journey since the beginning, it's brilliant to be with you.

We are a community of people figuring out what it means to follow Jesus in

real life, not the polished, perfect version, but you know, the messy,

genuine, brilliant reality of this whole thing called Christianity.

So let me give you a little roadmap of what's gonna be

happening over the next hour.

We'll have a talk last about 20 minutes looking at the topic of relationships,

which is the section of our series becoming whole, that we are looking

at exploring how Christ makes us whole across every domain of life.

After the talk, we've got conversation Streets.

Oh, yes.

This is where we dig into what you've just heard, and you get

to be part of that discussion.

So if you're with us live, jump into the comments, share your questions,

your thoughts, and your stories.

And of course, if you are watching on Catchup or listening to the podcast, then

thanks for being part of the Crowd too.

Right?

Let's meet your hosts and let's get started.

Well, good evening.

Welcome to Crowd Church.

Great to be with you online this evening, wherever you are watching in the world.

My name's Matt.

It's good to be with you.

Uh, yes, that was me in the video clip before wearing the Goon is t-shirt.

Um, and obviously the, I'm wearing a different outfit now, but anyways,

good to be with you, uh, on this very cold, wet evening here in Liverpool.

Beside me is the very talented and beautiful man, which is Dan Orange.

Good evening.

Dan Orange: How are you doing?

Good.

Yeah.

Good.

Yeah.

You sure?

I'm, it is grim, but it's nice.

It's nice in here.

Yeah, it is.

Very, very nice.

Nice and warm.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson: Now it's great to be with you.

Uh, let us know in the comments where you're watching from.

Do say hi.

It's always nice to connect with people in the comments if

you're watching live on YouTube.

Uh, but this evening we are talking about honoring your parents.

This most bizarre of biblical commands, um, which is loaded

with meaning, isn't it?

On ideology that we're gonna get into tonight.

What does it mean?

What does it look like?

Why should I actually care?

Uh, and to kick us into the conversation, uh, on my left, the beautiful.

Uh, Jen Mariner is here.

She's gonna be doing the talk.

Um, but yeah, uh, lemme just quickly check the comments actually,

'cause you are not doing anything.

I'll do it.

God, you can do everything.

Matt.

I'll just sit here.

Look at you.

You're just the eye candy.

Yeah.

Is that

Dan Orange: right?

Matt Edmundson: Uh, warm.

Welcome to you.

Uh, hey Heather.

Uh, great to, uh, thanks for commenting.

Uh, don't let Heather comment alone, just join, join in with us.

Um, but I'll be in there while Jen is talking.

Any questions, any thoughts, write them down in the comments.

Um, because after the talk, like I said in the intro talk, we've got

Conversation Street, uh, where we're gonna get into those questions.

And after Conversation Street, for those of you who like to stick around, we're

going to open up the Google Meet room.

Um, the URL Zoe is gonna put in the comments, uh, at some point,

uh, in the next few seconds.

Um, but that is go Crowd Church slash meat.

MEET.

Uh, so do not meat?

No, no, it's not barbecue.

See, you just have to spell it, don't you?

It's, uh, but it is what it is.

Uh, but yeah, come join us in the Google Meet.

It'd be great to see you.

Great to say.

How's it great to put a face to a name?

Uh, so that's gonna happen towards the end.

But without further ado, let's hand over to the amazing Jenny Mariner.

Jenny, over to you.

Jenny Mariner: Good evening.

It is an absolute pleasure to be here with you.

Um, I have been here Crowd a few times, but if you don't know me,

my name's Jenny, and I'm one of the leaders here at Frontline Church

where Crowd is based in Liverpool.

And it's always an absolute pleasure to be with you and as Matt said.

We are talking about honoring your parents about Biblical childhood as

part of the, uh, series that we've been doing here at Crowd about Relationships.

And there are two key verses that we're looking at today.

If you take notes at all, I wanna look them up.

The first is from Ephesians six.

It says, children obey your parents in the Lord for this is right.

And the second key verse we're gonna be looking at is from the 10 Commandments.

Matt's already referenced it.

It's Exodus 20, and it says, honor your father and mother so that

you may live long in the land.

The Lord your God is giving you.

So the overall key point I'm gonna make talking a nutshell is that obedience is

important in childhood and honor remains a permanent obligation throughout our lives.

And that is whatever the dynamics in your family, family dynamics

are difficult, aren't they?

And relationships can be difficult.

But we are called to honor our parents throughout the lives of our parents.

So we're gonna look, um, at three areas.

We're gonna look at biblical childhood, we're gonna look at what it means

to honor your parents as an adult.

And then we're gonna have a little look at the end, at a couple of kind of

modern dimensions and dynamics to that.

So starting with biblical childhood, as we just looked, the verse in

Ephesians, it says, children obey your parents in the Lord for that is right.

And that angle is consistent throughout scripture.

You know, one of the things, um, LOHs.

People advise about scriptures, you know, what does it say at various

different points in the Bible?

Does it change?

Is there nuance you need to wrestle with?

Not really.

There is nowhere in the Bible that says children do what you want.

It's consistent.

This thing of honor your parents and teaching a child to obey is

an interesting thing, isn't it?

I don't know how many of you have children or are close up to parenting in any way.

I have two children that are both under the age of 10, and so we're, you know, we

are teaching obedience, but it's funny, in this day and age, people talk about, well.

How is your child feeling?

Is your child neurodiverse?

What do they want to do?

What's their personality?

And even like the debate as to whether or not you should teach

your child to obey is quite an interesting one in this day and age.

To be honest, as a parent I wasn't really expecting.

And those are legitimate considerations.

You know, we do need to know our children.

That's really important.

But childhood is the time where we learn obedience and it's part of

learning our sense of place within our family and within our society.

I spent 12 years as a secondary school teacher in a boy's secondary

school in Liverpool, and there's one kid that particularly.

Just sticks in my mind who just did whatever he wanted, which means he

spent very little time in the classroom.

He spent a lot of time wandering around the school.

You know, he'd shout through doorways, he'd nick things off people, you

know, he was constantly supposed to be in an internal exclusion,

but he wouldn't go there either.

I can't remember why we didn't just expel him.

There was a complicated backstory, but I remember thinking like, this child is

not learning how to function in society.

That is what learning obedience when you are young is about, you know,

none of us get to do whatever we want all the time, actually, do we?

I did ask chat, GBT, has any society ever run with anarchy?

You know, anarchy being like, we're literally, there's no government,

there's no structure, there's no society.

You do what you want.

It has never worked apparently, according to.

That search that apparently, you know, it's been like a couple of

little, you know, a year in northern Spain, there was a little community

that was an anarchist community.

But at the end of the day, you need structure, you need leadership,

you need some kind of organization.

It's always needed.

The Bible teaches us that God created us in all our uniqueness,

and yet God is a God of order.

You read Genesis one and two, and actually the chaos of the waters, God pushes the

chaos back as he creates the land and creates all of the rest of creation that's

seen as a positive thing in that story.

And then humans, the role in that story is that humans rule

over the rest of creation.

There is order.

And so part of childhood, we are, we learn, we obey our parents

because it's God's command and it is teaching us about obedience.

It gives us that social stability, as I've already said, that reflecting

of God's divine design, sorry, tripping over my words there.

Divine design.

Um, we can't have anarchy.

We need to obey if we wanna function, if we wanna play our part in society.

It's also about our spiritual development.

When we are, um, children, we learn to that we can trust our parents.

Most of us, not all of us, but most of us learn.

We can trust our parents, and that helps us in terms of

learning about trusting God.

When I came to Crowd in February, I did a couple of talks about, um, obedience

and desire again in Genesis about how Adam and Eve wanted the fruit, but

God told them they couldn't have it.

And there's something about learning to trust and obey God, even when we

don't really understand his instruction.

That is really important and we're starting to learn

that by obeying our parents.

So it's about social stability, it's spiritual development,

and it's character formation.

Learning to submit to legitimate authority that dying to self, that humbling.

You know, when I was younger, I'll be honest, I didn't really

like the idea of respect.

It's a very out of fashion word, isn't it?

And I was that narky teenager that once I became a secondary school teacher,

I was like, oh, I really would not have liked me and I did not like.

I'm not saying he doesn't believe me, but honestly I did not like respecting

teachers until they'd earned my respect.

And you hear that quite a lot in this day and age.

Well, I'm not respecting someone they need to earn my respect.

But actually again, it doesn't work like that beyond a point in, um, in

one Peter two, Peter actually says, show proper respect to everyone.

Love the family of believers.

Fear God, honor the emperor.

You know, there's a sense of order.

You can't just be rude to someone until they've earned your respect.

And yeah, okay, you don't have to obey someone who's asking

you to do something terrible.

But that sense of having respect for people in society, government

teachers, healthcare workers, it helps us form our character.

It helps us learn.

It's not just about us and it helps us know where we fit.

And it all starts in childhood with that relationship with our parents.

We learn that obedience, you know, good parents teach us about respect.

And, and it's all forming our character and helping us to function.

In Colossians three, verse 20, it emphasizes this again, it says,

children obey your parents in everything because it pleases the Lord.

That's pretty comprehensive, and it shows us that this is something

fundamental that we need to learn.

Now, of course, as I've already kind of hinted at, there are limits to this.

Sometimes you don't obey your parents or anybody that's asking you to break

the law, or certainly no one that's asking you to go against God's will, but

that isn't the case most of the time.

Is it?

Those exceptions are not the case.

Most of the time.

You know, with my kids, I said, they're both under 10.

I'm at that stage of really needing them to learn, like, yeah, okay, there might

be a bit of a conversation about this, but ultimately you need to respect me as your

parent and you need to obey what I say.

I have the final decision, so that childhood obedience.

Biblical and is actually really important in terms of how we

grow and how we function well.

But then as we become older adolescents and become adults, we

need to figure out how we relate to our parents as an adult, don't we?

You get that sense, Don.

If you've heard people talk about you in an adult child relationship, an adult

adult relationship, we have to transition into relating to our parents as adults.

And I'm gonna bring us back to that verse from Exodus 20 that says,

honor your father and mother so that you may live long in the land,

the Lord your God is giving you.

That doesn't say only until you're 18 or only until you're grown up.

That is ongoing.

Proverbs 23, it says, listen to your father who gave you life

and do not despise your mother when she is, when she is old.

So those ideas of honoring and listening are not the same as obeying.

And so we need to grow in developing that sense of honoring even when

we are past needing to obey.

And it's interesting to note in Ephesians six, it says, honor your

parents in the Lord for this is right.

And then it goes on.

It says, honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment with a

promise so that it may go well with you and you may enjoy long life on the earth.

God is really making his point.

He makes it in Exodus.

He makes it when it's quoted again in Ephesians.

He's making a point.

This comes with a promise.

If you honor your parents, you may receive long life on the earth.

This is really important.

Knowing your place, honoring your family is important to God.

It comes with this blessing.

So for all of us, there's something we need to wrestle with here.

Whatever your circumstances.

You know, we can't stay like children.

We've all seen that, haven't we?

The adult child who's still a child and you know, maybe it's mum that

still dominates what's going on.

I mean, it's not a great look even when you're single, is it?

Let's be honest, we've all seen that like 25-year-old man, that's still a child.

But it really isn't good when you get married.

Like you can't still have your parents parenting when you get

married or you know, it's bad.

You just kind of slot into treating your spouse like your parent.

'cause you haven't learned to function like an adult.

So you need to figure that out.

But equally, you don't want the overbearing parent do you?

Who just won't give the child any space.

I mean, you get this a bit in the west I think, but you also get this,

you know, I've seen this in like comedy sketches from other cultures.

The like overbearing parent who still thinks they're in charge and

we've gotta wrestle, haven't we?

With how do you become an independent adult while honoring your parents?

You know, I said you get this in comedy sketches, but I think.

We, there's also a lot we can learn from other cultures.

I think there are many other cultures that are better at this

than we are here in the west.

Or another option is to throw your parents off entirely and say, I'm an adult now.

It's all about me.

You can't harm me back.

You have no wisdom.

I'm gonna do what I wanna do.

You know, that's probably where I was when I was 18.

My parents, they're both still alive and I wanna honor them, so I don't

wanna share too much about what my childhood was like growing up, but

my parents made a number of decisions and had stuff going on for them that.

I didn't think was great, and they got divorced when I was 18.

And my emotional kind of response for that was to be like, well,

I want nothing to do with you.

And, well, not in the sense that like I, I loved them.

I spent time with them.

I didn't cut off my relationship with them, but I didn't honor them.

I didn't respect them.

I didn't think they had a single thing to say that was of any use.

And I know that God has taken me on a journey around honoring them

because they are my parents now.

I don't have to agree with everything they said.

I don't have to obey them.

I don't have to look back on what happened and think that they were

right, but I can still honor them.

Honoring the Bible is about treating someone with proper respect and value.

It's about saying, you are my parent.

You birthed me, you raised me.

You did your best, even if actually your best was inadequate.

I dunno if there's anyone else who has to wrestle with that.

You know, even parents that have children taken away from them in really bad

circumstances have often done their best.

So how do you wrestle with honoring a parent?

'cause they're your parent and treating them with respect, even if there

is pain that you need to unpack and things that you need to deal with.

Honoring parents includes things like.

Verbally talking about them with respect as just saying,

treating them with dignity.

Even if, you know, I think lots of us with our parents will have things

we disagree with, things that we have to forgive, things we've had ended

up talking to a counselor about.

But you can still treat them with respect.

You can be careful about how you talk about them, where you talk about them

and honoring them for who they are.

You can seek wisdom from them and show them value by doing that.

You know, you don't, you don't need to obey them anymore as an adult,

but can you ask their opinion?

Can you include them in what you're doing?

You know, except for those extreme circumstances, most of us have areas

where our parents will have wisdom that they can give us, and it honors

them to give them the time and space to do that instead of rejecting them.

And again, like I said, I went through that season of rejecting them.

But there is something about learning, okay, when can I ask their opinion?

When can they speak into my life?

When is there something valuable that they've got to say?

It's about regular communication and you know, in our world that can look very

different depending on our circumstances.

Life can be quite busy or it might be really busy for you and it's

actually really quiet for your parents and, and being aware of that.

You know, my mum moved to Liverpool.

She wanted to be closer to us.

As I mentioned, she's on her own and that means that we get to

see her regularly if we want to.

But when she moved, I was really aware.

I was like, we might not see her.

Like life is really busy.

If we don't make a plan, then we won't see her.

So one day a week she picks the kids up from school and a different

day a week she comes for tea.

So we've got those two touch points just like built into our rhythm or, um.

My husband's family, they all live at a distance, and routines and diaries don't

line up very well for like regular phone calls, but we try and use technology.

We try and send videos and messages and we try and make sure

that we book seeing each other.

And again, you know, sometimes you can be like, oh, this is just inconvenient,

but actually she's our family.

She's my husband's mother.

We want to prioritize seeing her as part of honoring and part of

that communication with parents.

So it's speaking about them with respect, seeking wisdom, communicating well,

and then sometimes it's about emotional and practical support as parents age.

In one Timothy five it says, if anyone does not provide for his relatives

and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith

and is worse than an unbeliever.

That is pretty harsh, isn't it?

But you can see that sense of consistency in all the verses we've looked at,

that God is saying something about family and how it really matters.

Similar to God, talking about honoring your parents leading into long, long life.

There is something that God wants us to really think about here.

You know, even when Jesus was dying on the cross, John 19 talks about

him on, you know, he's literally on the cross and he looks at John and

he says, take care of my mother.

And I think again, in Western cultures, this is something we really need to think

about and mul on God's wisdom, I am.

One of the things I quite like is watching like real life documentaries.

My husband does not like this kind of thing at all, so I watch them on my own.

But I like that one, the ambulance one on B, B, C, right?

And all the paramedics doing this amazing stuff that I just

couldn't even imagine doing.

But it actually really breaks my heart watching that show how much time

paramedics spend with old, isolated people doing things that are actually

really simple, that you don't need a paramedic and an ambulance going to.

But that old person has dialed 9, 9, 9 because they've got nobody else.

And you know, I've watched this show enough times that I've thought I

do not want that to be my parents.

That's not what I want for them.

And I do joke with my parents 'cause they're both alive and like I said,

they got divorced, that I'm gonna need like a house with a granny annex on

one side and a granny annex on the other side and they can like come in

and not meet each other, you know?

But like, you know, you gotta take these things seriously.

You know, we need to consider our responsibilities for

our parents as they age.

We're not responsible for them.

And you know, sometimes we need to allow medical professionals to take over,

but I think in the West we still do need to wrestle with that, communicate

that question of how do we include them, how do we communicate with them?

How do we honor them even as they age and they're less able to function?

My mom always talks about the seven stages of life.

She says that stage four is in the middle and like your whole body

works and you can do everything.

But she talks about how you start unable to care for yourself and

potentially you might end life unable to care for yourself.

It like mirrors.

You know, the Bible teaches us that our worth and our value does not change.

We have value as a baby unable to feed ourselves and we have value

if we live till a 90-year-old that is unable to feed ourselves.

Even when we are less able to offer support to others, less able to

give back to society, we have value.

So how do we relate to our parents in those seasons?

We honor them for who they have been, even when they're a shadow of that person.

And again, I think this is a challenge for us, that is part

of our spiritual formation.

Those seasons of caring for someone else are often really difficult.

They're really like dying to self times when the Holy

Spirit meets us and shapes us.

Jesus muddled laying down his life for us, and that's part of how

we are formed into his likeness.

So, you know, I don't have all the answers on this one.

I haven't walked that yet.

My parents are not at that stage.

I have watched others do it and seen it's complicated.

But I know that the bi, the Bible model something to us that is still

relevant about what does it look like to engage with these questions.

What does it look like to honor and care for our parents in these seasons

and not just ignore them when they've become difficult or inconvenient?

And I would say a word to parents here on this one too, I'm learning as

I grow older that we never feel old.

So any parents watching this or you know, bear in mind, engage

with your children if they try and have this conversation with you.

You know, if they wanna talk about things like how can they help you?

Is your home still suitable for you?

Are you in a community or risk of isolation?

The number of people I know who are like, actually my elderly parent

won't have this conversation.

Like, let's help each other out and have these conversations.

Finally, as I draw to a close, I wanna touch on a couple of modern dynamics here.

And the first is that despite everything I've said about honor and communication

and respect and care, it is okay, it's biblical to have healthy boundaries.

So particularly once you get married and start a family, Genesis does talk

about you leaving your mother and father and being one flesh with your partner.

So as we've already said, you know, if your parents are overbearing, it is

okay to put a boundary up and say, I honor you, I respect you, I listen to

you, but I'm making the decision that is right for my family and my partner.

Your parents mustn't come between.

And same in terms of the time you spend with your parents.

The money you spend with your parent on your parents.

It's not for your own family to suffer, but you can put up boundaries as well.

If you have been in a situation that's been harmful or abusive,

which is a reality, isn't it?

You, you need to manage those risks while finding a way to still under your parents.

That's okay to do that.

And the last thing I wanna mention is that we don't all live in an

ancient near Eastern culture where our parents are probably in our

tent or in the ne tent next to us.

We are dealing with complexities of the 21st century, aren't we?

They, our parents might be at a distance or they might have really

complicated health issues that just wouldn't have been a thing in the past.

And it is okay to look for creative solutions.

I've already talked about, um, you know, using videos and messages to

keep in touch with my mother-in-law.

You know, there might be church community that need to help you

out, but the principle is the same.

What does it look like to honor your parents wherever they are?

Whatever's going on.

We can apply all these principles in the 21st century.

So in conclusion, I'm coming into land now.

The biblical role of being a child is about obedience, which is really

important 'cause it shapes all kinds of things for our adult life and

helps us function well in society.

But the instruction to honor doesn't end when you're a child.

It continues on into adulthood, and it's part of training us in all kinds of areas.

It teaches us, teaches us spiritual maturity and kingdom values, develops

our character, helps us build community.

It reflects God's divine order and it helps provide practical C care.

So the teaching from such a long time ago is still absolutely as relevant now as it

was then that we honor our parents in our childhood, we obey them, and we are formed

as we continue to honor and engage with our parents for the whole of their lives.

That's part of God's eternal purposes for, for his people.

Amen.

So, I am gonna hand back over now to Matt and to Dan.

Matt Edmundson: Uh, don't go anywhere though.

Jenny Mariner: I'm not going anywhere.

Matt Edmundson: That's the important thing.

Uh, great.

Welcome to Conversation Street.

So, uh, what stood out to you about Jen's talk?

Um, write that in the comments.

Um, and we're gonna start digging into this.

So, uh, Heather opened it up.

Uh, I like this.

Um.

She said I'll start the ball rolling with something a bit controversial.

So I thought we'll just jump straight in.

Jen, uh, I believe society has swung too far in the reverence of

youth and boundaries and respect for elders is no longer a thing.

Discuss.

I'm quite curious to know what you think about that.

Zoe.

Actually, my daughter is here, uh, just to put out which Zoe's

working, the tech, my daughter.

And she's like, what are we doing tonight?

And I said, oh, Jen's talking about honoring parents.

She's like, oh, that's why you want me to come.

Um, so I'm, I'm kind of curious, uh, agree or disagree.

Jenny Mariner: Yeah, I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't think that's gonna

be that controversial in this room.

I mean, that's probably what I meant with myself, that like, as

a teenager and a young adult, I wasn't terribly respectful of.

Others in authority older than me.

I do think it's a thing that can be liberating for young people, almost

that naivety of thinking that you know better, it can release kind of

all kinds of, um, what's the word?

Like creativity and all that kind of stuff.

But I don't think you're gonna get That's that controversial in this room, the fact

that we shouldn't write off the value of older people what they can bring.

Dan Orange: Yeah, there's, I think it all often gets into the argument that,

well, life is very, very different now.

Um, so therefore you don't know anything about the past.

But when you were, when you were talking, I was looking what, what the Bible

says sort of about the, the word honor.

And it apparently, it's literally means heavy.

It's like weighted.

And I thought that's really good that it, we should.

We should look, look and listen to our parents.

Yeah.

When, and weigh it.

Like it's a weighty thing.

They've, they've, they might not have had tech, but they

still had life, you know, years.

Yeah.

Just, just experiences.

Yeah.

It is, is amazing, isn't it?

And we, you can throw the baby out with the bath water so easily.

Matt Edmundson: That's a really important point.

I, I, when I was a teenager, I appreciate, that was a long time ago.

Uh, for Matt, Crew says it.

Um, but when I was a teenager, um, it was the same argument.

Yeah, right.

It was the same argument.

The the, the adults were saying, oh, you youth, you don't, the youth are today.

You dunno what you're doing.

Um, and we're like, oh, what do you know?

Generation just has got a clue about modern worlds.

And so it doesn't surprise me that the next generation's saying it.

So I, I remember I was sat in Ben's, Ben's a, a local

hairdresser and I was sat at Ben's.

And Ben was talking, telling a story, um, about one of his kids.

And I just looked at Ben and I said, Ben, why are you surprised?

Like his son's like 18, 19 years old.

And I'm like, when you were 18, 19 years old, did you

feel like you knew everything?

And he's like, yeah.

And I'm like, but somehow magically that's gonna just, that's just not gonna,

you know, affect your kids in any way.

Yeah.

Fair play.

So I think, I, I don't like you.

I, I dunno if it's controversial to say, uh, Heather, I do think

it is a repeated pattern though.

Um, and the respect for elders.

I, I remember hearing that all the time when I was a kid.

You know, respect your elders 'cause you don't do it.

Jenny Mariner: I wonder if maybe the slightly interesting

thing is almost more like.

Society's more accepting of it now than it ever used to be.

Mm-hmm.

So I don't know if young people are getting told as much as they were,

like, actually the older people might have something useful to say into this.

Mm-hmm.

I think in terms of, I can't remember the words you said, Heather quite used,

I don't have it, but almost the, that sense of, um, young people being the

best rather than we've all got our place.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, there's a bit of that going on, which I just don't think is that healthy.

Matt Edmundson: Mm.

Young people rule.

It's an interest.

No, but it is true, isn't it?

And I think

I, I, I, I quite like the arguments either way, you know?

And I, and I, and I, you know, do not let anyone despise you because of

your youth, is what the Bible says.

And I think, but there is this thing about respecting, like when I was a kid.

I remember getting a clip round the ear.

It's a good old British saying, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

A clip round the ear from a policeman for riding my bike the

wrong way down a one way road.

Do you know what scared me more about that?

Was telling my mum, because if my mum found out that a policeman, a

clip around the ear, I, I would have got another clip around the ear.

I would've got grounded.

All kinds of bad things would've happened.

Um, I think probably the shift that I see in society now is if the

policeman gives you a clip around the ear, the policeman's in trouble.

Right.

Yeah.

And I, I, I wonder if that maybe has gone too far the other way.

I don't know.

It's a bit political maybe.

Um, so let me bring it back.

Um.

To honoring your parents, what advice would the parents here give to those like

me who are adults, but are the kids in this scenario in terms of what they can,

what can they do to honor their parents?

So what, I mean, you've touched on this a little bit.

Um, Jen, like, uh, adult kids honoring their parents looks different

to obedient kids, doesn't it?

Jenny Mariner: Yeah.

So I think, like we were saying, there's still that thing of are

you still listening to them?

Are you giving them time?

You know, one of the things my mum has said to me is like, you are always in

such a rush to have time to hear me.

And actually letting her know, I think I do better than that, than I used

to because I've tried to be really intentional and be like, actually I

value her and I want her to know that.

So if it costs a little bit for me to slow down a little bit to

listen to her, then that's okay.

I think, um, if.

As you said, making time for them, you know, not just allowing it

to be a really long time Yeah.

Since you last spoke to them, because actually your life is really busy.

Yeah.

You know, trying to make sure that you see them and there, you know, there

are all those things that we can do before, you know, we also talked about

when your parents need you, kind of physically maybe, but before you get

to that stage when you're just living your adult life, it's remembering that

your parents are still there and they're not just there when you need them.

Yeah.

But actually it's just nice and kind to keep a good relationship with them.

Yeah.

Maybe they need you.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Text them, call 'em.

What do do with your parents?

'cause your parents

Dan Orange: are Liverpool based, are they?

No.

No.

So they, they live about two hours away, but they're actually, um, they're actually

moving back to Liverpool for Yeah.

For the reason that they realize they're getting, they're getting a bit older.

Um.

We, we need them in different ways.

We've got kids, it's great if they can be around more, but then

also if they, if they get ill, um, it's a long way, um, for them.

So it is great to have parents that have actually thought, you know,

thought about that as, as well.

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Have you had either of you the difficult conversation

with your parents, which is in the event of your death or in the event

of, um, you becoming, uh, quite ill?

Um, what do we wanna do?

Or is it like when that happens we'll wing it kind of a thing?

Jenny Mariner: Do you, do you mean more when you get quite ill?

'cause you said in the event of death that that's

Matt Edmundson: like Yeah.

I mean, you know, I think about my parents, uh, and Sharon's parents,

it's like obviously they're aging.

At some point they will go to meet their maker.

Mm-hmm.

Um, uh, hopefully it's not too soon.

Uh, or you know, what happens?

Um, like in, in the comments, uh, and Dan, I mean obviously you

can talk to this because I think you've had a recent case of this.

Yeah.

Uh, my mum has, uh, Alzheimer's and we now have moved into a

very different set of roles.

Um, it's hard to take on the role of carer from someone who always looked after me.

Neither us, neither of us are comfortable with it.

And this comes to that question did, isn't it really like when kids become

the full-time carers of their parents?

Um, and what that is and what that looks

Dan Orange: like.

Yeah, it does change very, very quickly as well.

So, yeah, like Matt said, we, my, my mother-in-law two months

ago was very, very ill, you know, just hours really away from dying.

And so it has changed the last two months and, and Lisa's role has been

so much more, um, looking after her.

Life has changed a lot.

Um, she's doing amazingly well.

Now she's ran as fatigue, which we wouldn't have thought would've

even happened a few weeks ago.

Um, but it was, it was just, we had, we had to go into that role.

You know, I think it's different if, if potentially it's a

lot, lot longer, period.

I know with my parents, my grandparents were, um, I mean like 101 and

98, they'd had very good Oh wow.

Very good lives.

But, um, grandma, um, got out Alzheimer's, so really didn't that Relationship's gone,

you know, you can honor, honor them as a, as a person, but they, they didn't really

even know who, who grandma, who mum was.

So it's just commitment.

Yeah.

Jenny Mariner: And I think those scenarios, I mean, I haven't

walked it myself, but I think.

Knowing when you need the medical care with things like that, you know, you

hear really difficult stories of people trying to care at home for someone

actually that's beyond, yeah, yeah.

You know, so it's knowing when you need the medical care, when someone does

need to go into a home or a hospital or whatever, but still knowing what

honoring them looks like through that.

Treating them with respect.

Yeah.

Communicating well, and the other thing I heard recently that just

really made me think was that we, um, we like our dignity, don't we?

It was actually around the whole euthanasia debate, which don't

particularly wanna get into, but someone was saying, you know, I, I.

Of I would want to have euthanasia myself because I don't wanna lose my dignity.

And the other person was like, maybe we just need to accept

that we lose our dignity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's just an interesting thing, isn't it?

Like, so when my mum was saying about, you know, you start with someone wiping your

butt and you end with someone wiping your butt, like maybe there is something there.

Yeah.

That's, yes.

It's extremely difficult.

I can see the comments from Heather and my heart, you know, goes out to you Heather.

It's extremely difficult, isn't it, to get your head round the person who wiped

your butt that now you need to care for.

Yeah.

But I wonder if it is part of life.

Yeah.

You know, the beauty of life that God's made.

I don dunno what you think.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I, I, I think it's a really important question and I,

I think actually in the West it's not something that we talk about enough.

Um, I think our culture.

It is different from a lot of cultures around the world, isn't it?

Where this sort of gener, intergenerational care happens

auto automatically, not so much in the UK or in the west.

Um, and there's very much a route which is, you know, you live as long as you

can and on your own, and then, then you're gonna go live in a home and

then, you know, then you know, you, we might come and visit, yeah, we'll come

visit like once a week or whatever.

I remember growing up, my grandmother, she lived in a, um, what do they call it now?

Assisted living, um, residential care type place.

Um, and we went to visit her once a month and she seemed, you know,

like, like she quite enjoyed it.

Um, she tried living with my uncle and I think after a while it just

became evident that wasn't gonna work.

So, um, I mean, I dunno, the fall was in fallen and outs,

but I think as a, as a society.

Yeah, we don't, this is what I was talking about.

Have you had these conversations yet?

Because we don't talk about it and it's like all of a sudden we're now

faced with this scenario that I, I don't actually know how to deal with it

'cause we've not had the conversation.

Um, and so it's, it's a complex one, isn't it?

And I, I would just encourage people to have the conversation one ahead of time.

Um, just, it's a lot easier to deal with these things ahead of time.

And also, I don't think honoring means actually becoming

someone's full-time carer.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but in some instances it might.

Um, I, I think, I think these things are unique.

Dan Orange: Um.

I think like, like Jenny said about boundaries, and it could be that you

are a carer for a period, but if you've got family and mm, um, other things

going on, you, you also have to look after, after them, and yeah, yourself,

so that there does have to, you know, majorly hard decisions, but there

does have to be, yeah, it does those

Matt Edmundson: boundaries as well.

One comment, uh, which I quite like this phrase, how you treat.

Your aging parents teaches your kids how to treat you when you are old.

Mm-hmm.

That's quite a scary thought, isn't it?

Just ignore everything Zoe.

Uh, just ignore everything that that will be, that will be useful.

Um, so let's switch tack slightly, um, because maybe one of the obvious

questions, and I think something that I've seen a lot actually over the years,

we talk about it in Christian circles.

I mean, you mentioned earlier about when you get married, you leave, uh, the

Bible talks about you leave your mother and father and, um, that is you still

honor them, but you, there is this sense of leaving their way of doing life and

you are creating your new way of life.

So the obvious example will be Christmas traditions, right?

Uh, you leave those and you create a new sense of Christmas tradition.

Um, but.

I've seen quite a few marriages where mum's not left.

Mum's still involved a little bit either with the daughter or with the son.

Um, you know, with the mum where she's never quite convinced that,

that the wife is looking after her son quite like how she ought to, um,

or whether the mum is just always interfering with the daughter somehow.

Um, have you guys experienced that?

Any thoughts on this?

Jenny Mariner: I, um, we caught up with some friends just last week actually, who.

Were really good at this with her parents who just, they didn't as a couple, they

didn't earn very much money, but they knew that that was around certain choices

that they'd made and her parents kept trying to give them money, but then

like the money came with influence.

Yeah.

And you know, and they were really good actually at standing up to them.

And, you know, they've got a really good relationship with them.

I would say they did this with honor and with respect, but saying

actually these are the choices we're making for our family, and

you clearly don't agree with us.

You're making that quite evident that these are the choices we're

making for our family and actually we're not having your money.

Yeah.

Um, I, I reflected on that over the years of, I think they did that really

well as a couple and they demonstrated also talking about that as a couple.

Um, it was her parents, but she was very sensitive to when

it wound him up, you know?

And I think being careful if you're, that your own parents don't come in between you

and your partner, if that makes any sense.

Mm-hmm.

Like if you ever find yourself taking the side of your parent against the

side of your spouse, I think that's

worth.

Having a think.

Yeah.

Yes.

At that point.

Yes.

And, and it does

Dan Orange: from experience.

It does, it does come up and it comes up from different sides.

You think?

Well, my parents, I know.

I think what they did was right.

Um, but then you're putting down your Yeah.

But going, going back to the last few weeks we've talked about, um, motherhood

and parenthood and uh, and fatherhood.

And when you grow up, those roles change.

So I think someone mentioned that as being a affect, often like a mother,

sometimes we got this whole thing of, we, we want to be friends with our kids.

Mm-hmm.

And you lose the fact that you are, you, you know, you are the parent.

But as you grow older, then there is, roles do change.

There is a friendship.

But if that friendship then has that, that boundary's completely

gone, then yeah, it does lose.

Especially if you're married, there's.

A whole sort of issues that can come in there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I

Jenny Mariner: guess the reality is in a marriage, your spouse

has to be your primary person.

Yeah.

And it can't be anybody else.

Yeah.

Whether that's a sibling or a parent, or a colleague or somebody you met in

the pub, or, you know, I mean, like,

Matt Edmundson: yeah.

I, I, yes and no.

Right now I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna swing slightly the other way

here because, um, I, I do wonder,

let me, lemme just preface this.

I think I agree with everything that everyone said, right?

That actually, if I take the example of my mum, I think has been a legend.

It's not interfered in our marriage, not had any, um,

expectations upon me and Sharon.

And as a result.

Her and Sharon got really well.

They talk more than me and mum.

In fact, my mum likes her more than she likes me.

I know I am like bottom of the pecking order right now.

There's the grandkids, there's Sharon, and then there's me just right down there.

That's okay.

But I'm also aware that I am married to Sharon and her dad is called Brian.

Now, I would fully expect Brian if I wasn't treating his daughter well

or right to take me aside and say, sort yourself out, son, because you

need to, do you see what I mean?

So I think on one hand parents won't get involved, but I think

at some you, you, I don't know.

I think if it was one of my kids, I would step in and go, this needs to change.

Jenny Mariner: But I guess even in that, I guess you're talking

about doing it in a healthy way, like him coming and talking to you.

Like, imagine how unhealthy it would be if someone was in Sharon's ear.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's not treating you very well.

Yeah.

I guess there's healthy ways aren't there of.

Yeah.

But no, I would completely agree with you.

There's a, there's a space for things like that.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Yeah,

Jenny Mariner: absolutely.

Matt Edmundson: So it says here, my mum isn't abusive, but she's really difficult.

Constantly critical boundary crossing makes everything about her.

Uh, I avoid her because every conversation leaves me exhausted

and feeling bad about myself.

Um, it's interesting, isn't it?

Am I being selfish?

And how does this connect with honoring your parents?

Um, and I think it's, it's worth saying actually on that, that honor

doesn't mean unlimited access to you or letting someone repeatedly hurt you.

I think sometimes honoring is actually establishing really good boundaries,

um, and, and sticking with them.

Um, but it's, I, I, I.

I think, here's the thing, right?

I think hurt people hurt not all the time, but I think if there is a reason

your mum is being like that, I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but that hurt.

People hurt, right?

So there's something which is driving that, um, that needs to be dealt with.

And I think as a Christian, our response in that situation is to forgive, but it is

also to establish quite firm boundaries.

And I think like your friends with the money, I think that's great.

These are the boundaries, right?

This is where we, we do not cross.

Um, which is ironic because when we raise our kids, we're in effect

establishing boundaries, aren't they?

And here the kids are establishing boundaries with the parents.

Jenny Mariner: Yeah.

I mean, I don't wanna say.

Too much of trying to honor my own parents.

But I would say my personal experience is the more I've dealt with stuff like

that myself, like with therapists, with friends, the more I've been

able to then, um, not have to put such a strict boundary all the time.

Like you might find you have to put a really strict boundary in one season, but

the more you can access your own healing for what's happened in your childhood

or in your past or even now, I think you can, I would say my own testimony

is then being able to find a way of navigating things of a similar elk, you

know, of like, okay, I can handle this.

This is the boundary, but I can handle this because

actually I've dealt with that.

Dan Orange: Yeah,

Matt Edmundson: yeah.

Dan Orange: Jesus was quite, um, sort of, his comments are never really that

gray are, they're quite definite, but right at the beginning of his life

when he was in the temple, he was 13 and his parents were looking for him.

They'd lost him and he.

Well, don't you know, I should be about my father's business.

And that was to his parents, you know, it was respect, but it was

like, well, this, this, my, my calling is my, my father in heaven.

And then, but then as you mentioned, when he died, it was like,

John, look after my, my mother.

He didn't, he didn't dis disregard them, put 'em out the way they were evident.

They were, they were, he was, they were respected.

Yeah.

But his, his calling from God was, was higher and that those boundaries came in.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

No, that's totally true.

And another question then to ask around this is, um, what about abusive parents?

Um, so sometimes we have dysfunctional relationships with our parents

and sometimes that dysfunction actually turns into abuse.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I mean, the Bible being the book that it is, is just full of

examples of dysfunctional parents.

So I think immediately of David who, um, son.

Rapes, Tamar is it?

Tamar gets raped and then Absalom, um, is like fuming that David doesn't

do anything about it and ends up the kingdom, ends up getting split.

I mean, you talk about crazy dysfunctional stuff going on.

It's all in the Bible.

Um, you see it right from the beginning.

Cain and Abel, the first kids one ends up killing the other.

I mean, it's not, it's not what you'd call happy families, is it?

And so, but I think there's some real dysfunction there

that we have to be aware of.

So the Bible talks about honoring your parents in the midst of also

providing all these examples.

Um, like you mentioned, Jesus, Jesus was honoring to his parents,

but Mary thought he was crazy.

Halfway through his ministry, she goes, you're nuts lat.

Do you know what I mean?

You need to be committed.

Maybe the message translation puts it that way, but in essence,

that's just what he was saying.

Um, but it's, it's one of those where.

There are these dysfunctional relationships, but in the midst of

it, it does talk about honoring.

So we have to be, like you say, clear on what honoring

means and what it doesn't mean.

What's your thoughts on abusive parent relationships?

Jenny Mariner: Well, I mean, you definitely have to keep yourself safe.

Hmm.

And I think there isn't anything that would suggest otherwise in scripture.

I, I would say, so you need to figure out what that boundary is.

And I think, you know, worst case scenario would be no contact at all.

And then looking at what, what even contact could you have

sending a Christmas card, you know?

But that's pretty worst case scenario.

But I think you, we do have to protect ourselves and we do have to figure out

what in those situations we can do.

I would still say that there's something, you know, when I was talking about how you

speak about your parents, I would probably say even in those scenarios, to not be

blurting it out everywhere all the time.

Yeah.

But thinking about where you share it and where you talk about it, um.

Not saying we should keep secrets, but I think that is part of

respect even in those scenarios.

But I think it's okay to put boundaries in and really harsh ones.

If actually you've been in an abusive situation, there needs to

be a harsh boundary, then there needs to be a harsh boundary.

Would you agree?

Dan Orange: Yeah, absolutely.

It's not a, the commandments are still the commandments, aren't they?

You know, they his, yeah, his word is Yeah.

Yeah.

Is ultimate.

And we can't, it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean ignore, and

it doesn't mean ignore, yeah.

Abuse.

And it's

like there is still some, there's some respect.

There's your, your chances of rep repairing a relationship are greatly

increased if you are not blurting about everything that's happened.

But yeah.

Um, there's got to be, yeah, got absolutely got to be two boundaries there.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

I think.

I think, and this is where I think understanding the topic of forgiveness and

honoring is really important because that doesn't mean letting people off the hook.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And I think sometimes there has to be consequence.

Yeah.

Um, and there, you know, with abuse especially, I think things have to

be reported because it has to stop.

Yeah.

Um, and so I've not had abuse from my parents far from it, but there have

been times where I've been subject to abuse and it's not a forgiveness issue.

Um, but I did feel the need to report it because it needed to

stop in case it wasn't just me.

Um, so letting them off the hook is, is not forgiveness.

Mm.

It's not honoring.

Um, but I, like you say, I think in the midst of all of that, I can't choose

or you can't choose what your parents did or did not do, but you can choose

your response as a result of that.

Yeah.

And I think.

That's where the power lies.

Um, I, I think that would be my, my observation is too often I see

people become victims, rightly so, but they stay there because of

something that happened to them.

And so the, the, the abuser still has the power.

Mm-hmm.

And I think where Christianity and the gospel comes into play

is actually through forgiveness, through, um, through scripture.

You realize actually God has redeemed that and can, and, and

can give you that power back.

Um, and I think that's super, super important.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Uh, last, last, I'm aware of time, so let's get into the last one.

Uh, absent parents.

Now this is an interesting one, isn't it?

How do you honor an absent parent?

Because if you look at all the stats, um.

You'll realize quite quickly that absent fathers especially are

the, are connected to just about everything that's wrong with society.

Um, you know, most of the people in prison have got absent fathers.

Most of the men that commit violent crimes, absent fathers, adult

Hitler, s Starling, all of these people grow up without a father.

Do you know what I mean?

It's just, it's crazy how, when you look at the stats, how the impact that

absent father has on the family unit.

Now we've talked about what it means to be a dad, um, but there's a,

there's a question that isn't there In the midst of that, how can you be

honoring to someone who was absent?

Now, I, I know your dad.

He was, he was not absent.

No.

Um, I dunno, your dad.

Um, I, so I, I've, no, I have no idea, Jim, but I, I think it's a

really interesting one, isn't it?

Like Q my parents divorced when I was young, so I was nine years old.

I saw my dad once, twice a week.

Um, so he wasn't absent, but he wasn't permanently there.

Um, and I, I see the impact that that has.

So how do we, how do we honor in that kind of environment do you think?

Asking all the hard questions tonight.

Hey, glad you came.

Jenny Mariner: Yeah, no, um, I think, yeah, that's what I was thinking.

There's different kinds of absence as well, aren't there?

Or isn't there?

You know, there's being physically absent as being physically

present, but emotionally absent.

I think, um, what you are already saying about your own heart in

all of it is really important.

You know, I did actually have a friend whose father had completely disappeared

and had no contact with him for about 20 years and then reappeared on the scene.

And it was interesting that he had just done enough forgiving that he was able to

handle his dad reappearing on the scene.

Yeah.

And I'm not wanting to paint hope of everybody.

Your dad's gonna reappear.

But it was interesting that like he'd done the business.

To deal with that rather than just sitting in the resentment.

Mm-hmm.

And I think, I think it links to a lot of the other things you were

saying of like, processing that pain.

Like honoring your parents does not mean failing to acknowledge the pain

you might have from your childhood.

Yeah.

You've gotta hold those two things, intention and still find out how,

what can you do to honor them?

What does honoring look like?

It might be not very much.

Yeah.

I think it's okay if it's not very much.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It's um, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

I, I would agree.

Um, I think what is God telling you to do if you're a Christian?

That would be my counsel.

What, what do you feel like the spirit of God is leading you to

do when it comes to your parents?

Um, and honoring your parents?

I think that's like super, super critical.

And I think the other thing that I would say in, in all of this is, um.

I didn't really understand what mom and dad went through as

parents until I became a parent.

Right.

I knew what it was like to be a kid 'cause I'd, I'd grown up in there,

but I didn't know what it was like to see it from their point of view.

Mm.

Because why would I, I was a, I don't even, I was too busy

thinking about myself, you know?

It's not until you're in your mid thirties, you stop

really doing that, isn't it?

But it's like,

when I became a parent, I saw things quite differently.

I was a lot more empathetic to some of the situations they faced.

You know, like money, stress, and worries and the impact that that

has on family and, and all the stuff you've got to deal with.

And I think my respect and my admiration for my parents grew

when I became a parent myself.

I dunno if you found that.

Oh yeah,

Dan Orange: absolutely.

Yeah.

You think before your parent that, that, that you are tired.

That you have lots of things to do and then you become a parent,

you go, no, I wasn't tired and I had, you know, nothing to do.

I had nothing to do.

Yeah.

I mean, it's that stark.

Yeah.

So did have a lot more respect.

Matt Edmundson: Parents send all your emails and comments to Dan, uh, on that

last statement, but No, that's fine.

Any thoughts on this?

Jenny Mariner: Um, I can't remember where we, did we start on absent parents?

Is that where it was?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

We were just talking about how our respect for parents grew when we became parents.

Jenny Mariner: Yes.

Sorry, I just got distracted by thinking

how much I agreed with what Dan said, so you can send all

your complaints to me as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I guess the other thing, one thing I've just reflected myself.

Again, not wanting to share detail, but me and my sister have different approaches to

some things in our family that my sister just desperately wants it to change.

And she's always like, well, what about this?

And what if we confront this and what if we say this and I have learned some peace,

which I feel is God-given peace from accepting my parents' limits and being

like, they're not beyond change, but it's unlikely and I can have more peace if I

say like, this is how they currently are.

How do I honor and respect them and deal with them?

And what are the healthy boundaries and what can I do within the current

scenario rather than rallying against it to change all the time?

Um, yeah, that would be my final thought.

Dan Orange: I've got, I've got one sort of question for, for you two is what about,

um, effectively not your earthly parents, but say if you've got, um, stepparents

or you've, you've grown up with people that pretty much have been your.

Your mom and dad, but they're not your real mom and dad.

What, where does, where does the Bible stand away?

Do you, you stand on on that, especially stepparents.

'cause it must be very, very hard not in that situation to

do you still have to honor them?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I would say so.

Yeah.

Uh, just maybe in a slightly different way.

Yeah.

But yes, I think, I mean, having had stepmom's, um, was I honoring of them?

You'd have to ask them.

Probably not.

I was a snotty nose teenager.

Um, but looking back, um, I, I don't, I wouldn't honor them necessarily as my mum.

Um, but I would definitely honor them in the role that they had.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and I, I think.

But that comes back to what you were saying earlier about, you

know, you don't give respect to anyone until they've earned it.

I think respect is something actually you should probably just give to everyone.

Dan Orange: You lose it rather than

Matt Edmundson: have to gain it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And I think a bit like that, uh, experiment they did where the, the

science professor gave everyone an a in the class and said, you've all got an A,

uh, now you can only go backwards, right.

Depending on how much work you're doing.

It worked really well, apparently, because I need to keep my a And so I

think, um, I think given respect to people, regardless of who they are in the

family is, is just like super critical.

Jenny Mariner: Yeah.

Yeah.

I guess the only count, it's not even a counter, but probably an additional

thought would just be around again, it's okay to have some boundaries around that.

Mm-hmm.

So I think that can be confusing.

Yeah.

Um, and you can even end up with the opposite scenario.

I think I know a couple of situations where the stepparent is probably

the closer parent who is easier to respect and honor, and the one that.

Isn't there, you know?

So I think there's a lot of complications around that, that I

think it's okay to wrestle with.

I a, going back to what Matt said a little while ago, ask God what he's saying to you

about this situation, about this person.

Thrash it out with him.

Mm-hmm.

See how it applies to you.

Matt Edmundson: Very good.

Okay.

Well, that was a good Conversation.

Street.

I feel like we're just getting warmed up.

Any final comments from you, Dan?

Um, no.

No.

I think that was, that was really good on it.

Yeah.

Jen?

Uh, Jen?

Jen?

Jenny Mariner: Uh, no.

I think other than what we're just saying, figure this out for you.

It's not about, um, it's.

Applying some rules from thousands of years ago, but it does apply.

There is a 21st century relevance to this, so figure it out for you.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, very good.

And I think I would just throw into that, remember, your parents aren't perfect.

Yeah.

But we expect them to be.

And so Grace for that, I think is really important.

Now, uh, we are gonna close down the live stream in just a few minutes.

If you would like to come join us in the conversation, uh, we're just gonna

meet, hang out, um, in the Google meets.

The link is in the comments, uh, go Doc Crowd Church slash meet.

Um, is the url.

It's in the comments.

So come join us in that.

Uh, we would love to say hi to you.

Um, next week I'm searching the deep recesses.

It is Mike Hart.

How did you know that?

Just new, uh, Mike car is talking to us about brothers and

sisters, uh, and what that means.

I think you're hosting that as well.

He's got four of them, so Yeah, he's, he's definitely got a few, few

brothers and sisters, doesn't he?

He is like, I think he's, he's beating us.

I've got three,

Dan Orange: three sisters and a brother.

I think he's got even more.

Matt Edmundson: Yes.

So, uh, Mike Caras, um, is gonna be teaching on that next week.

It's gonna be great.

Uh, how do we do the whole brother sister thing in this whole topic of

wholeness and having whole relationships.

So hope you got a lot outta this one tonight.

I think that's it from all of us.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Hopefully see you in the Google Meet room in just a few short minutes.

Uh, but if not, have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world.

We'll see you next time.

Bye for now.