Your Faith Feels Like It Should Be More

Matt Edmundson: Hello and welcome to Crowd Church coming to you live

from Liverpool this Sunday night.

My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether this is your first time or whether

you've been part of our journey since the beginning, it's brilliant to be with you.

We are a community of people figuring out what it means to follow Jesus.

In real life, not the polished, perfect version, but you know, the

messy, genuine, brilliant reality of this whole thing called Christianity.

So let me give you a little roadmap of what's gonna be

happening over the next hour.

We'll have a talk last about 20 minutes looking at the topic of relationships,

which is the section of our series becoming whole, that we are looking

at exploring how Christ makes us whole across every domain of life.

After the talk, we've got conversation streets.

Oh yes.

This is where we dig into what you've just heard, and you get

to be part of that discussion.

So if you're with us live, jump into the comments, share your questions,

your thoughts, and your stories.

And of course, if you're watching on Catchup or listening to the podcast, then

thanks for being part of the crowd too.

Right?

Let's meet your hosts and let's get started.

Well, good evening.

Welcome to Crowd.

Apparently I am your host.

That was perfectly timed.

Let's meet your host, which is me.

Uh, very warm.

Welcome to you.

My name is Matt Beside me.

It is a very beautiful Anna, and I say hi.

Anna Kettle: Good evening everyone.

Nice to be here again.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's good.

Funny.

Yeah.

Good fun.

So very warm.

Welcome to you.

Uh, warm.

Welcome to Crowd.

Do say, like I said, do say hi in the comments.

Let us know where you're watching from.

Be great to see you.

Um, I see AIDS in the comments already.

Aid.

Good to see you, man.

I have to put my glasses on now to see the, 'cause.

The text on the YouTube comments, it's so small.

Anna Kettle: It's the text on YouTube.

It's not your eyes.

Matt Edmundson: That's exactly what it is.

Yes, it's YouTube's forward.

It's nothing to do with me or my age.

Um, but yes.

Uh, so, uh, great to be with you.

Uh, really great to be with you.

Actually really looking forward to this tonight.

We've got Mark Buchanan, in fact, mark, we can introduce Mark real quick.

Let's put Mark on the screen.

Uh, mark.

Say hi everybody.

Nice to meet

you all.

Yes, mark is actually, we're doing something new tonight.

Something different, something that we've not done for a while.

Um, normally we have the speaker next to us here in the church, don't we?

And, um, tonight, mark is speaking.

He's, he's spoken a Crowd before, but normally it's a prerecorded talk.

He's doing it live from his.

Somewhere in Yorkshire.

That's right, mark, isn't it?

You're in Yorkshire.

I'm right

in

North

Yorkshire.

Yeah.

North Yorkshire.

Yes.

And so Zoe's gonna be very busy on the tech desk flicking between, uh, all the

different screens that are going on.

Uh, but we're excited.

So Mark's joining us live, he's gonna be speaking to us, uh, and also

joining us for Conversation Street.

So, uh, yeah, this one's gonna be fun.

Have I missed anything?

Anna Kettle: I don't think so.

Just like bear with us if something goes wrong, because as you say, this is a

first and we're not totally confident, but hopefully it'll all go well.

Matt Edmundson: You know, I'm very confident, uh, I have to say.

Um, Louise is in the comments.

Hi Louise.

Great to see you.

Uh, thank you for joining in the live stream.

Anybody else just.

Say hi in the comments.

Um, as we go through the talk, any questions, any thoughts, any

ideas, all that sort of good stuff, do throw them into the comments.

Now what's gonna happen is after the talk, we go into Conversation

Street, where we go through some of the questions and comments.

We get to talk to Mark about his talk.

Um, we get to hold up scorecards like, you know how well he

did outta 10, is that right?

Anna Kettle: Well, you could do that if you want, if you wanna be mean about it.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I want Mark to come back.

I won't do that.

Um, and so, but anyway, we're gonna do Conversation Street, but after

Conversation Street, we are gonna go over to the Google meets room and Zoe hopefully

is gonna put the link in the comments.

Yeah, she's put it there, which is great.

Um, and so come join us in there after the talk.

Come meet us.

It's, it's great to see you in the comments.

We love the interaction and the comments do do that.

Um, but it's also great to meet you in the Google room afterwards.

So do come and say hi.

Um, if it's your first time, don't feel any pressure to put your camera

on or anything like that, but we'd love it to meet you, to chat with you.

Um, I'm gonna be in there.

Aid's gonna be in there afterwards.

Uh, I think, mark, you are gonna come say hello as well.

Yeah, yeah.

In the Google round drop, which is great.

Fantastic.

So, uh, that is gonna come up, uh, just giving you the pre-warning.

Is that right?

Yeah, that's right.

My English is failing me right now.

I'll just talk way too much today.

Um, so yeah, love to see you in there.

So that's coming up.

Uh, but without any further ado, I'll tell you what we should do.

Let's get Mark on.

Mark's gonna be talking to us about discipleship, and then Anna

and I will be back after the talk.

Uh, for those of you who don't know, mark, if this is your first

time, whether there's a Crowd or you've not heard him talk before,

Mark's a really good friend of mine.

And a really great guy, and I love, love, love hearing him speak.

What is, this is like your third or fourth time with us

now, mark, something like that.

Mark Buchannan: Uh, third, I think it is.

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we keep, we keep inviting him back and he keeps saying

yes, which is a beautiful thing.

Uh, and so you're gonna want to grab your notebooks, grab your pens, because

Mark is just full of wisdom and stories, uh, that I know you are gonna love.

So without further ado, let me hand over to Mr.

Mark Buchanan, the legend that is, is Mark.

Mark Buchannan: Thank you.

Well, what a buildup.

So yeah, we're gonna talk about discipleship, uh, this evening,

and, and I just thought I'd make a few points before we jump into the,

uh, the verses we're gonna look at.

It just struck me that when we say discipleship, certainly

you've been in church for a while, you must have heard that term.

And it is one of those words where everybody says, oh yeah,

discipleship, but it might mean different things in different

people.

Um, and yesterday I was thinking about this,

about the

difference between being a

pupil

and being a disciple.

So

you could say that a pupil attends an institution of some kind

in order to acquire knowledge.

While a disciple joins a community

to

acquire

character and specifically the character of Jesus, so pupils attend set times,

and they have holidays and break

time.

But disciples, it's an all day everyday thing that you're signing up for.

Pupils learn different things from different teachers, but disciples

learn everything from the one teacher.

Pupils select their school of choice, but rabbis or those who are discipling

choose their own disciples, particularly Jesus chooses who gets to be a disciple.

He makes the offer to us all,

but, but

he is looking for disciples before disciples are looking for him.

And then pupils acquire knowledge and then they're have to work out how to apply it.

Apply.

But disciples learn principles.

Principles, and the application from their Rabbi Jesus.

And the interesting thing is Jesus, if you think about his 12 disciples,

so he had many disciples, but there was the 12, he then commissioned to

be apostles of the the good news.

But he didn't call them based on their knowledge or their position.

He chose them based on who he knew they would become, because it's a

bit of a motley bunch, isn't it?

When you think about it, you've got somewhere between

four and seven fishermen.

We've got a tax collector, we've got a treasurer, and we've got

somebody who's called a zealot.

So part of a quasi paramilitary political organization.

Trying to reestablish a kingdom for the Jews by all means

necessary, including violence.

So that's a very strange collection.

And on the face of it, you think, well, I don't know if I would've chosen them.

You know, where are the great leaders?

Where's the rich people?

Where's the people with political influence or who

know how to do certain things?

But when Jesus was looking around or all those who were showing

interest in him, he could already see who those men could become.

And they themselves had no idea about that at all.

But he was already seeing the end product that they were gonna become,

the character that they were gonna have, and outta that character

would come the things that they did.

And when you think about it, those 12 shaped the history of the entire world.

So that was an amazing outcome, but incredible character judgment by Jesus.

Just looking at people think I know who you could be if you follow me.

And I find that encouraging 'cause I think we can dare to believe

that Jesus is looking at us and saying, I know who you can be.

I know what's in you.

I know that if you have my character, there are all sorts of

things that you will be able to do.

But the thing that he wants more than anything, and that's the

difference between being a pupil and a disciple, is relationship.

He is looking to spend time with us, not just so that there's times

for lessons and practice, but he's looking to spend time with us 'cause he

actually wants to spend time with us.

And I find that mind boggling to be quite honest.

But that's what scripture says and I think we just have to trust it.

So just gimme one second.

So I got on my screen there.

Yeah.

So let's have a look at Matthew chapter 28 verses 19 and 20.

Matthew 28:19

And then, funnily enough, um, my dad used to be, uh, the pastor

of Jubilee Drive City Mission.

So he is part of the Liverpool City mission.

So the church was on Jubilee Drive and I got baptized there

as a very, very, uh, young boy.

In those days, we had to choose a verse or baptism verse, and mine

was Matthew Chapter 28, verse 20.

Matthew 28:20

So it was a really special verse for me.

This, and in the NIV, it says, therefore, go and make disciples of

all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and

of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you.

And surely I'm with you always, even to the very end of the age.

So there's a few things there that we could just very quickly

pull out of that passage.

So it, it's called the Great Commission.

So if you read your Bible, it's probably got a little heading above it

saying The Great Commission, the great sending out the great giving of orders.

But it's interesting that the first thing that he tells the disciples

to do to people is to baptize them so that there's a clear line.

Before the line, I wasn't following Jesus.

After the line, I am following Jesus.

And baptism is us symbolically joining Jesus in his death so

that we can symbolically join him in that new resurrection life.

So there has to be a point at which you start being a disciple.

You don't fall into it.

It doesn't happen by accident.

You don't just get caught up and find out halfway through that you're a disciple.

You decide to be a disciple.

You decide to engage.

And then he's saying baptizing in the name of the Father,

the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So God is a relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

and we're joining into that relationship.

So being a disciple is not a lonely business.

Being a disciple means deep, intimate connection with God the Father, God, the

Son, Jesus, and with the Holy Spirit.

So we are definitely not gonna be doing it on our own.

And then he is telling them to teach them to obey everything

that he had commanded them.

So teaching and learning is part of discipleship.

So if you are not willing to be a pupil, you can't be a disciple.

But being a disciple is much more than just being a pupil,

if that makes any sense.

But there are things to learn.

There are things to understand.

There are things to study.

Then he's saying, teach them to be obedient to everything

that I've commanded you.

So there has to be a submission there where we choose to obey what we've

learned about the nature of Jesus, the character of Jesus, the wishes of Jesus.

And that requires significant submission.

'cause we're basically saying as a disciple, I don't get

to call the shots anymore.

I don't get to live life just exactly the way I think I should live it.

I'm going to live it along the lines of what Jesus is asking me to do.

And that's a bit of a big ask, isn't it?

You think, oh my word, this sounds kind of heavy.

But that's why the last bit of that verse, and surely I'm with you always

right to the very end of the age.

It's so reassuring, isn't it?

Because we're not gonna be on our own.

So Jesus is telling us, look, I want you to be disciples and then I want you to

make disciples, but I am gonna be with you all the way through that process.

So just a couple of other verses about discipleship.

So in March, chapter eight, verse 34, Jesus says, whoever wants to be

my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

So we have to deny ourselves.

We have to take up our cross and we have to follow him.

See, the thing about being a disciple is you are on a journey.

Jesus, when he called, uh, the disciples, we, we see him call six of them,

specifically in the different gospels.

And always he says, follow me.

And nearly always, he said, and I'm gonna make you fishers of men.

But follow me is the first thing Jesus said when he was assembling his disciples.

So follow me.

It means there's gonna be movement, there's gonna be a journey, and Jesus has

already decided where that journey is.

And funnily enough, he's not actually gonna ask me where he thinks we should

go or where I think we should go.

So being a disciple is about following without questioning,

and I find that very difficult.

Um, and it says we have to deny ourselves.

This is not about me getting my own way.

This is not about me calling the shots.

It's not me even about me necessarily having a say.

It's not a democracy.

And then if that isn't tough enough, he says, and we've gotta

take up our cross and follow him.

So the Bible uses different words.

Sometimes it's called our flesh or our sinful nature, but that bit of us that

always wants to do what's good for me.

That is what we have to put on the cross, and that has to be a daily process.

Because if we don't, there's always gonna be this tension between

what Jesus is asking of us and what our flesh is asking of us.

So being a disciple is to say, it's not my way, it's your way, just like Jesus

to say in the garden of Gethsemane.

So I don't think we should make light of being a disciple.

It's gonna pan out brilliantly, and we'll talk about that in a moment.

But there's a cost to being a disciple.

I can't be a disciple and get my own way all the time.

I can't be a disciple and find it convenient all the time.

I can't be a disciple and play it safe, and I certainly can't put

myself first because being a disciple is about putting the master first.

So he's asking a lot, but he's doing that because he knows the reward that will come

and the results that will come from that.

So the goal really is to yield every single aspect of my life to Jesus.

That's what taking up my cross means.

So if that's not my intent, I'm gonna struggle to be a disciple.

But if I start like that and I start being a disciple, it builds its own

momentum and the more I see that Jesus' way of doing things is always better.

That the results are always better and that there's actually joy in following

the master, then it can snowball and it becomes easier to be a disciple.

But at the beginning it can be a bit of a, a challenge.

And speaking of challenges, the verse that I really thought, oh, my word,

you know, when I was looking at this, is in John chapter 13, verse 35.

John 13:35

And Jesus says By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples

if you have love for one another.

Now, that's an interesting test, isn't it?

Well, why doesn't he say by this that everybody will know that you are my

disciples when you can cro 50 different scripture verses, or you've prayed for

the sick 15 times, or you know the 10 Commandments and could expound on them.

What an interesting acid test to apply to.

Are you a disciple?

It says the main test is if you love one another, everybody's gonna

know that you are my disciples.

So just think about that.

If you are sitting at home, you might be on your own, but if you are with anybody,

just turn to them and say, you know what?

Only Jesus could love somebody like you because that's really

what this verse is saying.

Be careful how you say that.

Don't, don't be sarcastic 'cause it could cause trouble, but.

The point being is only disciples of Jesus could love the other disciples

that they're taking this journey with.

And that's why he uses that as the final test is if we've absorbed Jesus

teaching, if we've looked at Jesus nature, if we've studied the things that

Jesus did and said, and we've allowed.

The, the Holy Spirit to make that real in our lives.

Then we're gonna find that we have an ability to love people that we

otherwise would not be able to love.

Because that's the other thing about the disciples, isn't it?

You know, there's the 12 and then there's the 70, and then there's the huge crowds.

But just think of the different characters and the different personalities, and some

people who were really lovable and some people who were really difficult to love.

That's a really motley crew, isn't it?

And yet, somehow, because they were all following the same Lord, they found

friendship, they found relationship, they found fellowship, and then

they found love amongst each other.

And that's what got the ancient world thinking to think, well,

these are strange people.

'cause look at them.

They're not who we would've picked.

And they're not people who look like they're the world changers of

this generation, and what is this love that they have for one another?

People found it strangely attractive.

So in those early days, people were coming to find out what was

happening and they just felt.

Safe they felt this is a group that I could be part of.

This is a group that I'd like to be part of.

These are people who I feel comfortable with, even though they're nothing like me.

And I think that's really what Jesus is looking for.

Everything else that comes outta that, like people getting saved and

people joining church and people getting healed and people getting

delivered, that is fantastic.

Jesus wants that.

But it's the love that comes from being a disciple that is the powerhouse.

And it's exciting, isn't it?

'cause every church has got people who it's easy to get on with and

people, it's not easy to get on with.

But when we are truly disciples, we will find in our heart a love

that we didn't know was there.

And that will apply to our fellow disciples and then the Lord

will start to point that out into the society where we are.

And that will be one of the main mechanisms that will draw people to Jesus.

And that's really exciting, isn't it?

So there's quite a lot of a price to pay for being a disciple.

And just because we're being going to church, that doesn't mean we are one.

Just because we said a Prayer of salvation 15 years ago,

that doesn't mean we are one.

Just because I've read the Bible now and then doesn't make me one.

So I think for all of us, and I'm looking at myself here as well, I

think that's the challenge, isn't it?

Is am I a church churchgoer?

Am I a good person with a layer of Christianity on top,

or am I a disciple of Jesus?

Am I a fully paid up, absolutely sold out, deeply committed disciple, or am I

doing it as and when I can spare the time?

So I think I just like to urge us to really dive into being disciples

to study the teaching of Jesus, particularly the Sermon on the mounts.

Let's listen to everything that we can about Jesus in God's word.

Let's ask the Holy Spirit to bring it alive for us, and then let's spend time

saying, Lord, that isn't how I think at the moment, but it is how I want to think.

That wouldn't be my natural behavior or my natural reactions to the things that

happen to me, but Lord, make me that kind of person and I submit to you, Lord

Jesus, I'm willing to buy into this.

I'm willing to do my part.

I just need your help to make it happen.

And that's the beginning of the really, really exciting discipleship

journey that God is calling us to.

So lots to think about there, but let me hand back to our hosts

and let's see what we do with it.

Well, thanks Mark.

Uh, sorry about the echo by the way, folks at the start.

Hopefully we've got that now resolved.

Thank you for writing in the comments.

What was going on?

Uh, rushing around a little bit there, making the tech work, but we

got it in the end, which was great.

Discipleship, um, is, it is always an interesting conversation, isn't it?

Discipleship, because, um.

It feels like, you know, a lot of the conversation is, uh, about becoming

a Christian, but actually what Mark was saying there, and the, you know,

what the Bible talks about is more about becoming a disciple, isn't it?

Anna Kettle: Mm-hmm.

And in a way, I think the two are the same thing, aren't they?

Like you can't be a Christian, like the word Christian, as I understand

it literally means fuller of Christ.

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: So the idea that you can be a Christian without following Christ.

Day by day, and I'm following his, like, it, it's a nonsense.

Like yeah, there's a lot of people who are cultural Christians, aren't they?

Yeah.

Like you see this more in the states, in the uk, I think, but it's a lot of people

who call themselves Christians by label.

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: But you look at their lives and you think, yeah, but

you're not following any of the principles that Jesus lived by.

Yeah.

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

And,

Anna Kettle: and for me, it's one and the same.

How can you.

Claims to be a Christian but not be really following Christ example.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, that's a challenge for us all, isn't it?

It's easier said than done.

Mark Buchannan: It is.

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

Because it's a, as you're talking, I'm thinking, well actually it's a

bit like an armchair football fan.

Isn't it to say I support a football club, um, but to actually be a

supporter of two different things.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And I think it's easy in this country and in the states to say, I'm a Christian

because of the cultural aspect of it.

Like you say, um, it's not easy to say I'm a disciple of Christ because, um, like you

were saying, mark, there's a cost, right?

There's a, there's a cost to discipleship, which makes it a bit tricky perhaps

to sort of get involved with.

Definitely, and it, it feels like to us here in the West, or let's say in the

uk, it feels like a choice, you know, which is why I am phrasing the way I am.

But it is interesting.

I, I follow a, uh, a podcast.

It's called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God.

It's been running a couple of years now talking about the sort of the

quiet revival and some other things.

But, um, they had a guest on a couple of weeks back from a

group called Elam Ministries.

Um, now I used to work a little bit with them years ago when I worked

for a guy called Derek Prince and they work with Persian Christians.

So back when I was doing my thing in the Middle East, we always used to

say there are 500 Christians in Iran.

Um, now there's a million Christians in Iran and it's quite possibly the

fastest growing church in the world, which is surprising because the

persecution is absolutely horrendous.

But the funny thing is, when being a Christian makes your life absolutely dire.

You wouldn't dare say you were a Christian unless you were gonna be a disciple.

'cause you wouldn't do it unless you'd really come to know that following

Jesus has to be taken seriously and is the right thing to do.

But here where you know you can be a Christian, we are getting some

persecution these days, aren't we?

But not really anything major on the scale of things.

So I think it's much easier to be what, you know, Anna was saying about

being a a, a cultural Christian.

That's an option here, but in most parts of the world, there is no

such thing as a cultural Christian.

You're either a Christian and your life is under threat or

you're not a Christian at all.

And for them, discipleship and being a Christian are the same thing, but

it's 'cause life is pretty easy for us.

It feels like it's possibly two different things.

That's a really interesting point, isn't it?

That, um, that yes.

I I, and it's interesting, isn't it?

How, like you say, where there's the greatest.

Persecution, the greatest trouble with being a Christian.

That's where you find, I suppose, those that are more committed

to Christ in many ways, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and it's, and sometimes quite often, you know, people ask, well,

why does God permit suffering and, and, and all this sort of stuff.

But it seems that where there's suffering there, there's people

who are more sold out to Jesus.

I'm not saying, you know, that that's what God uses it for, but

it's, it's interesting, isn't it?

There's a sort of an irony to it that in the West where life is easier.

Mm.

Um, we tend not to need in our own thinking God as much perhaps.

Anna Kettle: I think that's right.

Pos possibly.

It goes back to what Mark sort of started on the, almost the

first point he made on that talk.

That is that there's a difference between head knowledge and just

learning, being a learner who learns information about something.

And being a disciple, which is more about learning and practicing and

building character as you do it.

Yeah.

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: I think the two are linked, like where you've counted the

cost, you know, or this persecution, that's how character gras as well.

Yeah.

Like there's something in that I think like,

Mark Buchannan: yeah, there is.

Yeah.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

What do you think Mark?

Mark Buchannan: No, I, I'm with you.

I'm trying to remember that verse.

You know, about, uh, suffering causes persecution.

Yeah, that's right.

Character and character.

Brings hope, which is really interesting.

It's like a complete cycle, isn't it?

Um, so when it's Jesus or nothing, it you dig deep, you know, and it is

difficult and you do suffer persecution, but it builds Godly character and

then that gives you hope because the more godly your character is.

The more easily you trust that even if it's bad, God has got a really good

plan and that God can do anything and that God can redeem us and rescue us.

Um, whereas if we go in half-hearted and say, yeah, I'll shop up on a Sunday,

but I've got other priorities and you know, I don't want get too, you know, un

British about it, you never really see.

The results, and you never really have that vibrant relationship with Jesus.

So there's no momentum there.

So it's a paradox, but it seem to work.

Yeah.

Momentum's a good word.

I like that.

In this, in in that sense, have you ever been, um.

And it may be like that where you're just like, well, I just

can't be bothered right now.

Um, I mean, apart from the old Sunday where you're like,

I just wanna lie in, um,

Anna Kettle: that happens more often than it should.

Um, yeah.

In all honesty.

Yeah, definitely.

I, I think probably most Christians who say that's not

true are probably lying to you.

Um, yeah, I've had seasons of life where it's been very exciting and yeah.

Yeah, I've been passionate about my faith and seasons where I've been very

discouraged and life's been hard, and I'm like, oh, I don't really know if I

wanna do this or if I'm all in with this.

And it's usually, sometimes it's when those, those seasons are hard.

Then you sort of have to dig a bit deeper, but then the fruit of that

afterwards is, is good, I think.

Um,

Mark Buchannan: yeah.

Yeah.

Anna Kettle: But yeah, I also think sometimes you can just get a

bit passive when things are easy.

Yeah.

I think I've seen it where both ways in my life.

How about you?

Mark Buchannan: Yeah, I, I think it's easy to get passive when

things are easy, but it's easy to get passive when things are busy.

Um, and that's probably the thing that I've seen.

More in me and also in people around me where yeah, you know, life gets busy.

You know, you get married, you get kids, work starts, work gets

hard, work gets harder and harder.

You know, I, I run my own business is always an excuse to do something.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, and so then for me, discipleship becomes about prioritizing

and prioritizing not just.

Going to church on a Sunday, but actually my growth in Christ, right?

And, and my growth in the knowledge of scripture, my growth in my

understanding of God, my growth in my communion with God, my ability to

hear God and sense God and see God.

Um, so I, I'd probably say yes.

I, I think busyness is probably my biggest enemy.

Mark, I dunno about you.

Yeah.

Busyness is a absolute killer, isn't it?

For sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and it, it's interesting, I, I, I'm, I think on the upswing from a,

a re horrendously difficult season and sometimes you just because you

don't understand it and you can't make any sense of it, it shuts you down.

And there's a sort of natural tendency to just curl up into a ball and hide.

Um.

And yet it's in those times when for various, you know, reasons, God sends

people along with a word of encouragement or a word of exhalation, you know,

basically said, look, get up Don.

Um, and then it's surprising, isn't it?

You know, in the depth of your situations you find God and then he taps into the,

what you know of his character to say.

But, you know, I felt him almost audibly speaking to me a few.

Weeks ago saying, but based on what you know of me, do you really think I would

just leave you swinging in the wind?

I know it looks like that, but do you really think I would do that?

And I thought, no, I know you wouldn't.

And that was a bit of a turning point.

Um, so I think there's lots of things that shut us down.

You know, laziness, apathy, busyness, um, chasing.

Silly priorities, you know, that don't really matter is another one.

But fear, I suppose that's what I'm talking about, is, you

know, the paralysis of fear.

Like, oh, my circumstances are so bad, I just feel overwhelmed.

Um, but that's where, as a disciple, we have to say to us, yeah, but

I committed to this journey.

You know, I committed to following Jesus and the fact that he's walking

through a waging, a raging storm.

I have to follow him through it because that's what I said I was gonna do.

Um, and if I stand still, he'll keep on walking and then I've lost him.

So I think that's where we suddenly realized, oh, this discipleship thing

was a bit more scary than I thought.

But by then you think, well, I mean it now.

I'm, I just need to carry on.

Yeah.

It's, it's such a powerful point, isn't it?

I, I'm intrigued again by this.

No, it was something that you said actually mock, um, about

discipleship being a journey.

Right.

In the sense that, um.

At the start of the gospels, we read Jesus going to the fishermen, you know,

to the disciples going, come follow me.

Anna Kettle: Mm.

Mark Buchannan: Um, you, you, you sort of fast forward through the gospels

and that becomes, pick up your cross.

That's like come and die.

Right?

It doesn't start, Jesus doesn't start with that.

He leads with, come follow me.

And then as you go through the gospels, his, his sort of invitations and

discipleship draw you in deeper and deeper and they, they get a bit more involved.

Um, and I think this is perhaps one of the things I've noticed

about my, my discipleship life, if you like, is, is a journey.

And where you are now is not where you are gonna be and where you are gonna be.

Uh, tomorrow is not where you'll be in a few months time, right.

Or a few years time.

And that God sort of takes you deeper and deeper, the more you, you go along with

him, which is really important because I think if you're new to the Christian

faith, or if you're just starting out some of these sayings, some of these

ideas, you go, man, that's a bit intense.

And it's like, yeah, but you, you, you don't need to get there tomorrow.

Right.

Just let God take you on the journey and let him work some

of these things out with you.

Right?

It's like you don't have to, the day you become a Christian,

you don't have to go, right.

Well, I now need to get rid of all my sin and all my, you know, all of these

things just have to disappear overnight.

It's not how it works.

And, and, and he definitely takes you on a journey, um, uh, in these things.

And I guess, mark, that's what you found as well, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, you know, and God, yeah, I was thinking about, you know, Peter, you

know, he, I just don't think he would've ever imagined in his wildest dreams who

he would become, but Jesus knew from the very beginning who he was gonna become.

Um, so when he says, follow me, you know, a lot of that is.

Follow me into circumstances will that will strip away.

What's not helpful about the way you think and behave leaving?

Just the elements that God put in you at birth and Peter emerges despite

some real screw ups along the way emerges as an absolute powerhouse.

You know, you think it's hard to imagine that there would be the church

that we know today if it wasn't for Peter, but he's just a fisherman.

Who denies Jesus gets it wrong on multiple occasions, you know, causes

trouble in the garden of Gethsemane.

But all the time Jesus was looking at him saying, yeah, but you are the

man on whose confession of faith.

I will build this huge thing called the church.

And you think that is amazing?

Um, and I think that's the confidence we have, isn't it?

Is like I run out of confidence.

My own self, but Jesus never does, and he's confidence in himself and

he's confident in his ability to draw out of me things that he put inside

of me at the moment I was conceived, most of which I've got no idea about.

Um, yeah, absolutely.

And I, I mean, I, I, I love the fact you talk about Peter, um, because

he gives me a lot of hope, Peter.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, he gives me an awful lot of hope.

Um, what's your journey been like, your discipleship journey?

Uh, with, with God.

'cause you, I think my background is, I became a Christian when I was 18.

It's very different to yours.

Where, and Mark, you're obviously the same as Anna in, in many ways.

'cause you both grew up pastors kids, right?

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

So I guess my discipleship journey is slightly different in that because I

grew up in Christianity, always going to church since probably I was a tiny baby.

Really.

Um, I grew up knowing a lot about Jesus before.

Adulthood and really understanding fully what that meant.

So for me, it was much more of a gradual figuring out what that

meant for my own life and really.

Not fully mentally consenting to become a disciple and understanding what that

meant and really counting that cost and wanting that for my own life until

early adulthood, like coming, you know, coming to university, finding

faith for myself rather than just that.

It goes back to that thing we were talking about, about it moving from head knowledge

and just know being around Christianity and knowing lots of the stories from

the Bible and growing up, going to youth groups and knowing a lot about Jesus.

But not necessarily having that personal relationship, which I think

sometimes can be a slow burner that if you've grown up through the church.

Um, yeah, that was my experience that really I had to make a

decision as a young adult.

Yeah.

That I actually wanted that for myself and I was gonna pursue it wholeheartedly.

And I think once I did it was really exciting and really.

Just a relationship that really came alive.

Yeah.

Um, and then there's been seasons where that's been up and down since.

Yeah.

And there's, there's definitely been seasons where it's been like, you know,

you talk about dying to yourself and I think a lot of that for me has been

dying to what I would want my life to look like sometimes, like be that.

Where I wanna be in my career or you know, like I've talked about this before

in space, but the journey like me and my husband went through around having a

family and not being able to have a family that we would've wanted to have, and

sort of dying to a lot of my own desires and trusting that God will take my life

and make it into what he wants it to be.

And that.

Just knowing that he loves me and that I can trust him with that.

'cause I think that's the thing.

For a long time I would be like, oh, but that sounds really scary and I agree.

But when you know that God is good and that he's for you and that he loves

you a hundred percent, then there's nothing to be scared of anymore.

Like it sounds like a scary leap, but the more that you come into relationship

with God and know that he's for you.

Then the less scary that is because you know you're safe with him.

And that for me has been a journey.

Really.

Yeah.

Mark Buchannan: It's a really, it is powerful what you're saying

because actually this idea of dying to self for you is meant letting go,

perhaps of an idea of what family was gonna look like for you and Andy.

Right.

Um, this, that, that's really.

Um, how can I put it?

It's not, it's not the message of the, of the, of culture is it, and, and

which is all about cumulation more, getting what you want, follow your

desires and all that sort of stuff.

Actually, what you guys have been through with the miscarriages, which

you have talked about on crowding.

Yeah.

You, you talked about quite in depth on quite a few podcasts

on the What's the Story podcast, if you wanna know more about it.

Um, that can't of been easy though.

To, to sort of, in Christian circles, we'd say, put in that on the altar.

Do I mean, just to, to, to relinquish.

Relinquish that.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying God wanted or intended that for my life, but I

think when things happen, like sickness or infertility or there's, there's a hundred

million things that can go wrong in our lives in this broken world aren't there?

That's just one of them.

I feel like although those things don't come from God, when you are walking with

God, he will use them to shape who you are and to shape that character that Mark

was talking about so that they're not wasted, um, so that they're not in vain.

Like I don't feel like our pain was for nothing.

Like I feel like I feel like I've grown and changed as a person.

Like I'm not the person I was before we went into that season

of life in, in many ways.

And I think Andy, my husband, would say the same.

Um.

That's not the same as saying, oh, I think God intended that.

Like, I don't think that miscarriage or death or disease ever comes from God.

Um, but I think he allows those things.

Yeah.

You know, for a season in order and, and, and if we walk with him, he's,

you know, he's willing to bring good out of even those awful things.

Yeah.

But I think the enemy, you know, intends the harm, not God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But he, he's just such a redeeming God, isn't he?

And Mark mentioned that as well, that he can redeem even the most broken

things and bring good out of them, because that's, that's what he does.

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

Yeah.

Can I ask you, Anna did, so you grew up in, in a.

Christian environment, did you reject it at some point and then come back to it?

Or was it just that once you came away to university you sort of grew into it?

Anna Kettle: Yeah, I think it, for me it was the latter.

I never, I never really liked, did a huge rebellious thing.

Um.

I just, yeah, I just think I took it deeper as an adult.

I think I was just around it, but I didn't really have to think about

whether I was Christian or not until I sort of moved out of my family home

and then it was like, oh, no one's just taking you to church on Sunday.

You don't have to go.

Do you want to go?

And if you do, what does that mean?

Like you are Yeah.

I, I think it just, it went deeper rather than ever, like, yeah.

I never really rejected it, although I know that's some people's path.

What about you, mark?

Mark Buchannan: Yeah, I, I was similar.

Um, yeah, because, because I, I became a Christian.

I, it's, it's a weird thing.

I was talking to somebody last week about this, but I got convicted of

sin, but I was only three and a half.

And you just think, trying to think now what, what it was

that I did that was so awful.

But I think it was just.

Spiritually, the Lord showed me my nature.

Um, and I just knew I needed to be right with him.

So I'd made that decision very, very early on.

And then I had a tremendous support network around me.

'cause you know, my father was a pastor and we had, we saw lots of

amazing things happen in the old days.

We used to call it living by Faith where he had no salary.

But you know, God would just miraculously provide so.

I had a phenomenal foundation phase.

So when I did leave home at 17 to get a job, um, and move to the

other side of the country, um, I had really good foundations.

So I think for me, I, I didn't have the sort of rebellious

phase at that point either.

But I think for me, the challenge was, it's all I'd ever known.

And I just assumed, well, it'll just be like this for the rest of my life, but

I know that God needed it to go deeper.

So then I encountered some very difficult things in life.

So I went into them as a Christian.

But I think being a disciple where it's that or nothing, that came

quite a lot later, really when I got into circumstances that I just.

Couldn't cope with on my own.

Um, and that made me really dig deeper into God.

Um, and then because, and again, it wasn't, I didn't choose this, but I

ended up sort of falling into a job where I was out in the Middle East and

I was smuggling Bibles and I was rubbing shoulders with nameless heroes, you

know, who were risking their lives every day, and it was life or death to them.

Then I realized, I thought, oh my word, you know, I'm.

Quite shallow actually as a Christian.

So I'm committed and I, I haven't swerved, but I haven't allowed

Jesus to penetrate the very depths of my being the way he wants to.

And I think that it was like changing two or three gears almost in one go

where I just thought, yeah, I, I, I just don't want anything trivial.

I, I need it to go deep.

Um.

But I was 30, 32 by then.

So you know, in a way I'd been a Christian already for what, 29 years.

And now you look back and you think, God, maybe I could have started that sooner.

But you know, God got me in the end, which I suppose is the main thing.

Anna Kettle: I think that's a really lovely thing about the

way God works though, isn't it?

You must said it before Matt, but it's, it's that thing of like,

God's not in a hurry, you know?

Like in the way he works in our lives.

He didn't, he never forces himself on us.

He, I dunno, you so gentle and so gracious and yeah, just kind of

works at the pace we we're willing to work at in a lot of ways.

Um, yeah, I think just, yeah, he's just.

He is not in a hurry, is he?

To kind of No.

Mark Buchannan: No, not at all.

I'm intrigued.

Uh, we've got a couple of minutes left.

Let me ask you both this question, uh, mark, we'll start with you.

Um, in the church when we talk about discipleship, now, quite

often we have this idea of somebody discipling us, right?

Who disciple do you disciple somebody?

Does somebody disciple you?

Um, I guess, what's your experience with that?

How important is it to have somebody maybe who's a bit further on in God who's a bit

older maybe, or a bit more experienced in some of these things to get alongside you?

What does discipleship look like for you?

Uh, I'm kind of curious.

Maybe you want to go first?

Yeah.

Um,

I'm a bit skeptical of.

Most church discipleship programs, um, it's like church

leadership programs as well.

They just throw information at you and you think, you know, and often that's from

people who've never led anything other than a, you know, a, a bit of a church.

So that, that sounds dismissive.

I don't mean it that way, but I think people opening up their

homes and letting you get really up close so that you would see.

The difference between what they say and what they do.

Uh, to me that's very exciting in a discipleship context.

Um, because you know, it, it's great to stand on a platform on a Sunday and,

and share what you've found in the word, and that's important, but I, I think it.

We, you know, if it's a scale where it's, it's knowledge up this end of the scale

and you know, experience trial and error, what we would call coaching in the secular

world, the church is way down this end of the scale, but I think real discipleship

actually lives up this end of the scale.

So I think those who've walked the walk for a long time.

Opening up their homes and their lives to people who are young in the faith.

That would really excite me.

And I think that would actually, you know, help people become

better disciples of Jesus.

And it's a, you know, for the disciples in the New Testament.

They got to hang out with the actual real Jesus in a way that we can't physically.

So our experience of Jesus is the word under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

But then the testimony of Christians who've been walking longer than

we have, and I think trans, um, transferring that knowledge and

experience across the generations.

You know, it's one of the Psalms, isn't it said, but talks about one generation.

Sharing the deeds of the Lord with the next generation.

That I think is the missing bit of discipleship, and it's

actually very easy to do.

We just need to give it a go and not overly organize it, but just say, well,

you know, here's what happened to me and here's how we handled it in our family.

So I think, yeah, we could do a much, much better job of discipleship in church.

I think.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, I, I was just trying to think.

I, I mean, I've certainly had seasons of life where I've had kind of one-to-one

discipleship where I've maybe just made a commitment to meet with someone who's

a bit, as Mark says, a bit of an old Christian, someone who's a bit further

on in a walk with God and just a.

Further on life stage as well, like maybe married with kids before I was,

um, and sort of just agreed to regularly meet up, pray, kind of chat about how

my life's going, anything I might be struggling with, with that person.

And, and so I've had, I've had seasons of life where I've had those

specific relationships in place.

That's been quite helpful.

Um.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily compulsory or needed.

You know, I don't have it right now.

It's, you know, I think in different seasons of life that can be helpful.

But equally, as you say, sometimes it's just that living with people day by

day, hanging out, you know, sometimes I think it can be much more peer to peer.

Yeah.

Like at the moment I'm part of a small group of women who are all.

Kind of in the same life stage as me right now.

Similar age, similar.

We're all quite mutual Christians, and we meet up every few weeks and just catch up,

pray together, share what's going on in our lives, and just kind of encourage each

other and push each other on a little bit.

Without anyone kind of leading another, we kind of lead one and,

you know, it's, it's peer led.

Um, I think there's lots of ways you can do it.

And you know, there's other, like, I think you and Sharon are really

good at it, Matt, like you just open your home a lot and just have

people over to hang out and just.

Be with you and see how you utilize.

And it's exactly what Mark said and I think that's amazing.

Um, so yeah, I think there's lots of different ways you can

do it and that maybe it depends on the season and what you need.

But yeah, I certainly think when you are a new Christian, it really helps

to regularly hang out with some people who can kind of invest in you and

encourage you and your faith and yeah.

What about you?

Mark Buchannan: Yeah, I, I think it's an interesting one, isn't it?

I, but like I said, 'cause I became a Christian when I was 18, so I, I

had that, um, discipleship program and, and like you Mark, I'm a little

bit skeptical of church programs on discipleship, you know, like, um.

But at the same time, uh, we're gonna be talking about community

next week, the week after that we're gonna be talking about spiritual

fathers and spiritual mothers.

And all of this is sort of connected in, they're not mutually exclusive topics.

They're all connected.

I think it's really good to have, um.

Regular connection with somebody who is older in the Lord than

you, um, and who can speak into your life and challenge you.

Um, I have that with Dave Connolly.

Dave Cony and I get together quite a lot.

Most of the time he tells me off of something stupid that I've done.

Um, he's, he's great, Dave.

Love the bones off him, but I'm talk more about that in a couple weeks.

Um, but like you say, I think it's also important.

It's, it's incumbent on me.

I've been a Christian 30 years, I've learned a few things, so I need to

open up my home and invite people who are younger in their faith.

Um, and we do that in community as well.

So we, we run a community.

If you, by the way, if you're watching and you wanna get involved with our

communities, do drop me line, let me know.

Um, get involved with communities, a lot of young Christians

in those, which is great.

Um, encouraging them on in the Lord.

And I think that's incumbent upon me to not only be a disciple, but to

help somebody else in their journey.

And I think that's one of the, the amazing things about Christianity

is it's, it's about giving, but it's also about receiving, isn't it?

And, and the two sort of phases.

And you look at the.

The relationship between Timothy and Paul, for example.

Uh, would be a good one.

You know, like, um, they sort of have this really interesting relationship in

the Bible and in terms of how they relate to one another and therefore how Timothy

learns to relate to, to other people.

Um, and so, yeah, I'd.

Discipleship is definitely not a program.

Um, Jesus did not have the, as far as I'm aware, Jesus, correct me if I'm wrong, he

did not have the book, you know, 101 ways to disciple your, uh, your friends here.

I think he just did life with them.

And so for me, discipleship is about doing life with people.

Um, that have this common belief in Christ, like you say, who will spur

you on, whether that's with your girlfriends, whether that's in a church

community, whatever that looks like.

I think that's just super, super important.

So, uh, I think, uh, mark, have you got anything notes

you wanna throw in there, bud?

No.

It just urge everybody go as radical as you dare and then push a bit harder.

Um, it's.

It's scary, but it's phenomenal.

And you think Yeah.

And if we don't do it, we will never really understand what

the Lord has in store for us.

So I think yeah, it's, let's treat it as if it's not optional.

So true.

So true.

That goes radical as you dare them push a bit harder.

Um, might be the title of the talk.

Anna Kettle: It's a good one.

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

Good title.

Anything else from you, Ms.

Anna?

Anna Kettle: No, I think we've probably covered it all, but I guess I just

finished by encouraging everyone to, you know, if you want to go a bit

deeper in your faith and some of what we've said, spoke or resonates with

you, then I think seek people out, whether that's through Crowd Church

or people you know, kind of in your own community or friends, whatever.

Just someone that you respect and you think, wow, I really.

I really love their faith, or I really respect them as like, I see something

in them that I would like to learn more about, like seek these people out

and just, you know, say, can I go for a coffee or, you know, come over for

dinner one day or just, you know, like.

Yeah, just try and seek those people out and yeah, I don't, I

don't think discipleship was ever meant to be, and following Jesus

was ever meant to be a solo sport.

You know, it's not, I don't think it's coincidence that Jesus disciple had 12

disciples, like they did it as a group.

They were like a team.

It wasn't a solo sport.

So yeah, I'd say just seek people out.

Yeah.

Mark Buchannan: Go for it.

Um, I would exactly that, right?

The one of the things that's really impressed me recently is a couple of

guys from the States actually who have reached out to me, um, and said, listen,

I need to talk to you on a regular basis.

Can we, can we do that?

Um, over Zoom?

There's some things they want to go through Christian guys.

And I'm like, sure, let's do it.

Um, and it's been great and I, I've enjoyed it.

Hopefully they get some stuff outta it.

It's been quite challenging, um, because we, you know, we talk quite

straight, which is quite helpful.

But do seek people out.

They, they're just, and if you can't think of who to seek out, pray and

God will definitely open those doors.

But listen, thank you for joining us next week.

Like I say, we are talking about coin Onia.

This Greek word, uh, which gets translated as community or fellowship,

but it's so much more than that.

Um, we're gonna look at what happened in the book of Acts that

radically changed the face of history, uh, with this whole topic.

So really looking forward to that.

I think you're back next week.

Anna Kettle: I think I am.

Yeah, I haven't actually checked the diary for next week yet.

Yeah, you are.

But I think I am.

Mark Buchannan: You are.

'cause I was talking to Sharon about it earlier 'cause she's on next week as well.

So do come join us.

Do come join us uh, next week for that.

Uh, Zoe, can you put in the comments again?

The link to the Google meet.

We will see you in there, uh, in a couple of minutes.

But Mark, my friend, thank you so much for doing this.

Uh, it's been an interesting tech journey, that's for sure.

Uh, it's been great having you, uh, join us.

Live.

Um, how's it been for you, by the way?

Yeah, really, really good.

Yeah.

Uh, technology's amazing, isn't it?

But yeah, and just good to chat it through with the two of you as

well, and, uh, share life together.

So yeah, thanks ever so much for having me.

I've loved it.

That's great.

We'll see you next term, uh, and we'll see you next week.

I'll see you next week as well.

Uh, if I don't see you in the Google meets, have a phenomenal

week wherever you are in the world.

Um, but for Anna, from me, from Mark, have a beautiful week, a phenomenal

week, wherever you are in the world.

We'll see you next time.

Bye for now.