When Submission Feels Dangerous

Good evening and welcome to Crowd.

Um, it's lovely to be here tonight.

Um, we, that was hilarious.

We were just saying, how do we know when we come on?

And literally it is like, you're on now.

That was a great start.

Um, I'm joined tonight with Sharon.

Sharon, say hi.

Hi everybody.

Good to be with you tonight,

right?

So tell us what have we got going on tonight, Sharon?

Yeah, tonight we've got the fabulous Dave Connolly talking about a couple

of words, which I think in our culture we can find quite tricky.

So authority and submission brace yourselves, but it's gonna be great.

So

brilliant.

I'm looking forward to it and I feel like we don't really need to pat it out.

I'm gonna pass right over to Dave 'cause I know you've got

loads to share with us, Dave.

So over to you.

Great to be with you folks and um, the title given to me

was Submission to Authority.

And, um, let's start by like addressing the elephants in the room.

Um, when lots of people think of those two words, um, it conjuress up a whole lot

of thoughts and past experiences and, um.

Most of those things are, they stem from a deeply rooted, sometimes

unconscious need for autonomy.

It's a bit like me.

I, I will make those decisions on what I do and don't do.

And, um, and there's a background thought about equality and, um, we,

we were just having a brief talk before and we were saying that,

you know, that we hear so much.

About the misuse of these things, um, whether it be in marriage or

whether it be in the church realm.

Um, and if you're a Christian and you read anything on the internet, you

know, we're constantly hearing about these things being misused and, and

quite often by church leaders, sadly.

But, you know, if we dismiss.

Submission and authority and what the Bible says about it.

I honestly believe that we were robbed of something.

We're robbed of the blessing that biblical submission and authority

brings because it's there to be a blessing to us, not a case.

And um, so I would really encourage you, um, to maybe.

Just open up your heart and mind and see what God is saying to you.

Um, you know, it's important as Christians that we have what is so

often called today a biblical worldview.

Um, I really believe that, um, accountability in all areas, whether

you are a Christian or not, is vital.

I think we must be people if you have any measurable authority, that we have to

be accountable for what we do with that.

We need to have a system in place that is caring for the people

that we're trying to serve.

But there is, there's probably a, another stronger, um, thought that's out there.

I'm sure you will have experienced.

For me, it's really on helpful and it's the focus that we

have on this is my right.

And, and I, I keep hearing this, whether it's be in interviews, I hear

people saying things, it's my right.

And um, I found that really quite sad that we're focusing on what our rights are

rather than what are our responsibilities.

And, um, it is important that we are responsible, you know,

the Bible and people say, well, am I, am I my brother's keeper?

Well, if you're a Christian, yes you are.

Well, that's what the Bible says.

And, um, so I wanna talk about these two words, submission and,

um, and, and, and authority.

And I don't know what your experience of them are, but maybe we could

just look at them and maybe God by the power of his spiritual shapers.

For that to happen, we just have to have.

A humble heart.

We have to be willing to submit our experiences and our own

thoughts and put our trust in God.

And you know, when we have these two things in place, we will have a healthier

lifestyle, healthier relationships.

And I believe, honestly believe a healthier society.

And it what Fred Blogs is doing over here.

Whilst I wanna love them and care for them, I have to make sure that

I am doing what I am called to do according to the word of God, regardless

what somebody else has done to me.

So let's briefly, um, look at what the Bible says about authority.

It's a legitimate authority that stems from God who created the universe.

Um, and he gra delegated that, um, supreme authority.

We will just mention how he does that.

What does that look like?

I like to ask, well, what does that look like?

And just to help my understanding, you know, and our guide is the Bible, not my

experience, but the Bible, God appoints authorities according to the Bible.

And we see it in lots of places.

We see it with our parents.

Um, the Bible has so much to say about it.

And, um, and, and to kids and why they should live under the, um, the rule of

their parents so that they can be cared for and, um, and that the parents can

care for them well and love them well, you know, and the Bible just says there,

um, to, to children, you know, do these things and it will be good for you.

It will go well with you.

God appoints, um, authority to leaders, whether they be in church or in society.

To, or you know, people who are in governments, et cetera, and

the Bible gives a clear code.

I believe in all those things, and we'll maybe just comment on some

of them later if we have time.

You know, authority is there.

Authority is given to benefit us.

When we submit ourselves to live under that authority, it was given

to benefit us to care for us.

Sadly, I think we tend to think when we talk about submission or authority

that it's there to suppress us, and hopefully tonight we'll see that

that's not why it was given originally.

Jesus himself demonstrates authority by submitting to the father.

Showing authority is best exercise in service, not control and domination.

You can read about that in Matthew 20 versus 25 to 28.

I'm gonna give, um, I'll give you numerous references this evening, um,

that we won't have time to look at them all, but we will reference them

what the Bible says about submission.

It's a choice.

Submission isn't like, you know, when you used to watch, um, the wrestling

on the tv and, um, I, I know that's quite sad to think about, but, um,

I remember taking my kids to see WWF not the World Life wildlife

fun thing, but the wrestling thing.

And, um, the highlight was, um, the, um, bush whackers or something like that came

down and I got kissed on the head by them.

My kids thought I was a star.

Um, you probably remember that more than anything else.

You know, when we think about wrestling, it's when somebody forces themself.

You know, they've got you in a head look or an arm look and a, you know, and

the only way out of it is if you submit that is not what the Bible talks about

when it's talking about submission.

It's when we willingly, freely choose to submit.

Or you could say to surrender and you know.

In society today.

I think sometimes we think when we talk about surrender in our lives,

Jesus, it's like some, somebody saying something that's de derogatory and

um, and that we'll lose something.

It's not.

So, James four, verse seven, one of my favorite verses.

And if you watch Crowd and you hear me speak, you say, you say, you

always say, that's your favorite face.

I've been around a long time.

I've got lots of favorite faces, and this is one of them.

And it says this, submit yourself then to God.

Resist the devil, honey.

He'll flee from you.

But you know, there's a process there, and that is firstly to

surrender your life to Christ.

And then we talk about in Hebrews 13 verse, um, 17, it talks about, um, in a

church context, oh, hello, was that me?

There was a voice and um, I hope it's not somebody heckling me, but, um,

there's a church, but, and it talk about how we, again, being part of

the church family, we choose to come and live and fellowship together.

And there's an element of submitting to one another in that.

And obviously there's the thing of submitting to authorities,

government authorities.

You read about that in Romans 13.

Base one to seven.

And um, that's always good to look at.

We know when we have crisis in our governments, regardless which, um, parties

in power or whether it's election time, there's lots of wonderful truth that we

can benefit from that, that we are to honor and to live under the authority.

Now, as soon as you say that, people say, well, what happens if it this or what

happens if that, and they talk as if we are living in some suppressed society and

things may not be totally wonderful, but things are not, you know, I don't believe

we're living in a day where we can go against what scripture says about praying

for, um, those who are in authority.

You may not have voted for them, but the Bible tells us we have to pray for

them and they really need our Prayer.

We're also called to submit to one another.

That means like honoring each other, not, um, being dominant with each other, but

lovingly and caring, um, with one another.

Ephesians 5 21 says, submit to one another.

Why?

It says this out of a reference for Christ.

And, um, it's really important that, um, this is a way that we express what

God is doing in our lives, in how we interact with each other, submitting,

you know, um, to each other, listening to each other, receiving from each other.

You know, to receive from somebody, you have to open up your life.

You have to open up your mind, you have to open up your heart and your ears.

And I, I suppose one of the most, oh, explosive, um, topics is, um,

marriage submission within marriage.

And, um, you know, I've been married a long time and, um, probably could write

a book on all the mistakes I've made.

And, um, but you know, when, what the Bible has to say about this, and

we'll reference it, uh, briefly and, and a little bit more in a minute.

It's about two people coming together as partners with completely different roles.

And you know, um, the Bible says about the wife submitting to a husband,

not him dominating.

And the husband's role is to love.

And you know, I believe our marriages would be protected.

A whole lot more would be a whole lot healthier if we were able to

understand this very simple point that men and women are different and

we are called to do different things.

And when it says about the wife submitting, it's not about

the husband dominating her, she's not like an appendage.

It's partnership, but with different roles.

And I think if you wanna do a study on that, I would really encourage

you and let it benefit your marriage.

The distinctions between authority and submission.

Authority is about, um, right, and power submission is about the

response to that, which is Right.

Okay.

Authority is about right, and power submission is about how we respond.

Submission isn't about being less valuable.

Than somebody else, but it's about aligning ourself to God and his purposes.

A worldly way of thinking about submission and authority is that they're just there

to suppress you, to take your freedom away from you, or that somebody will be,

if you submit to somebody, they will be greater or more significant than you.

It's just not true.

We start off by saying that things can be misused and we, we know that and we're

aware of that, but we should really, really shouldn't be putting down God,

what God says to protect ourselves.

We don't have to protect ourselves from God With regards to submission

and authority, there are many things within Christianity.

Our culture today, 21st century culture would applaud.

They would think it's good to be people with good character, to be honest, to

have deep relevance relationships and commitments to strengthen racial, um,

relationship, you know, boundaries to, you know, to take them down.

They would have lots of positive things to say about Christianity

or non-Christian friends without a whole lot of, um, positive things to

say until you talk about submission.

It's a bit like you switch that, um, switch

and all tolerance drops outta the window.

We get a different response.

To submit to authority takes great humility.

And you know, God wants his people to be humble all through scripture.

You know, we hear about how God draws near to the humble.

You know, when we're humble and gracious with each other, we're, we're put, we're

putting our arms down, you know, um, our hearts are open, our lives are open.

We're not on the defensive, and that's what we do when, um, when there's

submission, we don't submit to each other, um, because somebody's greater than us.

It's not about that.

It's about we recognize something of God in this context and we want

to just to open up our lives to each other, to hear from each other, to

fellowship and live with each other.

It's really sad.

I find it really sad that when we start to talk about submission,

people close down.

People get themselves in a place where they become all isolated.

Especially in the area of marriage.

'cause people have been here and you know, we know that, you know, over

the years, you know, um, we work with people going through a whole host

of different marriage situations and they are real and they are painful and

we're dealing with, you know, broken people who've been here maybe misused

and abused, but all we can go back.

To them with this, this is the real purpose.

This is what it looks like when it's done right.

We can't change what God says about it, but we can repent and adjust.

It's not right, um, that people are broken.

But you know, for when people say, um, this didn't work for me.

I was, I, I was abused, I was damaged by all these things.

You know what?

My horse is right there with you.

And, um, you know, we hear in, in the news about, um.

Key church leaders both here in the UK and overseas.

And now they have fallen into whatever it is with whoever it is.

And um, and we are shocked and we're appalled.

And you know, personally I'm heartbroken and a little angry, if I'm honest.

There just seems to be a constant stream every week.

But I wanna say, and I really want you to hear that, that for each one

of those people who have bought shame.

To the Lord and upon the church there are thousands and thousands of men and

women who are leading churches across the nations who are doing their best,

and you don't hear of their faithfulness.

We just hear about the abuse and it is awful.

Hear me?

It is terrible.

And we as church need to do better.

Don't forget, for those people who serve, I mean, we've known decades

and decades who have served in big churches and little churches, and we

don't hear their story of faithfulness.

The news is taken up by people who have abused situations on abused trust.

We need to, and we really need to do better in addressing that, and we

need not be ashamed of answering the questions that people have on this topic.

We really owe it to them.

As I said before, the Bible is much to say, um, about submission

in James four, six, and seven.

It says this, where he gives us more grace.

That is why scripture says.

God opposes the proud for shows.

Favor to the humble.

Submit yourself down to God.

This is what we said before, and resist the devil and he will flee from you.

I don't want us to miss the great value, um, in knowing

what it is to have submission on authority in the right places.

We could mention as, um, again, about, um, politics.

You know, Bible's got so much to say.

Have you noticed our election time?

Sadly, not just election time, but it seems to be heightened.

You know, we don't really get to hear what people's policies are in

any great debt because they're too busy throwing mud at each other.

They're so busy slandering each other, and I know that puts

lots of people off from voting.

You know, I wanna say to you, when you hear politicians doing this,

ask them what the policies are.

Say stop slandering people and tell me what your policies are.

You know, and as Christians, we are called to pray.

Pray for those who are in authority, you know, and we must keep rules.

Can I just say, you know, I, I have no problem people going on marches

and doing X, Y, and z. And, um, but we still need to pray for the government

and for those who are in power

church leadership, I'm sure there are many stories or that people would talk

about, um, church leadership, um, not being good for them, and that's why

maybe they're no longer in church.

Hebrews 1317 says this, have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority

because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account, do this so that

their work will be a joy, not a burden for that would be of no benefit to you.

You know?

And as a, as a church leader, um, it always, I, I don't know, maybe you noticed

I was smiling as I was reading that.

Um, but I want to encourage you men and women who are in a position to

lead us, to save us, to walk with us.

Um, I'm sure we'll talk about this.

Maybe, you know, um, that there are good stories and we should have confidence

in our leaders and we should be willing to submit to their authority and

guidance because they do have a watch over us, not because you elected them.

That's what scripture says, that they will answer to God.

And if you are, um, really keen to be a church leader, I wanna encourage you

read that verse, Hebrews 13, verse 17.

Hebrews 13:17

When we lead, we are accountable and we will give an account for how

we've looked after God's people, because they are God's people.

Even though we have the privilege of caring for them.

And I love that it says that it should be a joy and sometimes it is a joy.

And sometimes you go home and weep, but we have the privilege in church

to walk with people, to celebrate with them, to mourn with them.

We have the privilege of leading people to Christ.

We have the privilege of praying with people for a vast array of things.

We conduct a wedding services their children's dedications.

And sadly they're funerals.

But that's a, there is a real sense of privilege in doing that.

But we are accountable and that's why I was saying we need to do

better in caring for people.

Again, within marriage we could say so much, but you know, we meet

somebody and we form madly in love and.

We do our best.

But it, it's a journey, isn't it?

You know?

And the, the ma, the Bibles so much to say about marriage.

But I would say, you know, too, it's key things.

Why submit yourselves?

Husbands love your wife as Christ love the church.

Wow.

I would always say the ladies get the best deal there.

Certainly the easier one.

Yeah.

You know, um, but it is a partnership, you know, and, and I

know things go wrong in marriage.

Uh, you know, we, we know that

generally

we just need to know what it is to love and care for each other when

we love and care for each other.

We do surrender, we submit, we open up our lives for people, um, to speak in.

I know lots of people, and they're not, they're not necessarily the church

leaders who share things with us.

And sometimes, you know, they're telling us where they are, but they

actually minister to us because we open up our hearts to what they're saying.

And just as start to draw this to a close, I wanna say this is really

quite a difficult subject because I know people have been here by this.

We want to be whole.

We want to be complete.

We wanna live in a safe environment.

We wanna, we want to just be able to be fruitful as we fellowship with one

another, as we live out our lives.

Well then we need to just hold onto what God says.

Sadly, I think sometimes I know my own experiences.

It's easier sometimes to hold onto hate than what it is to

hold onto what God has said.

And you know, the way that God isn't multiple choice, you can't take

this part and not another part.

Um, I know a lady, um, said to me last year, um, she came in and she was

speaking to me and she said, Dave, um.

I can't really do the God stuff anymore.

I really don't wanna do it anymore because it, it, it doesn't seem

to be going where I'm going.

So I said, oh, oh, have you ever thought about changing direction?

And she said, no.

And she literally came back to me a couple of weeks later and she

said, Dave, can you pray for me?

I said, why?

She said, I'm sick.

I said, I'm like, who do you want me to pray to?

What is it?

You want me to pray?

Because we cannot.

We really cannot pick and choose.

We cannot say, I deny this in scripture and then lay old another piece.

I dunno if that makes sense.

You know, she was de denying so many things about God and then, you know, some

of the hardest things on the healing.

Now she's saying, well, I need to believe this because this

is where I am over healing.

You know?

And God being, God is so gracious.

We pray with that lady and she got instantly healed.

I'm thinking, God, you are so cool.

'cause I'm not sure if I would've done that, you know, because I'm so fickle.

You know?

Um, let's close it by saying this,

Romans 13, verse 17.

Again, everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities.

For there is no authority except that which God has established.

The authorities that exist have been established by God, God as an order.

He just has an order of doing things and we don't always see how that works out.

But you know these, this thing on submission and authority as we

respond to it, it actually shows.

It shows where we are.

It, it actually reveals our heart.

And, um, I remember having a conversation with somebody before the last election

and um, and it was messy and I'd hear everybody slanging, everybody else off,

and I'm like, I don't know what to pray.

But I remember after the election, a, um, an MP ringing me and um, yeah.

And I thought, how can you be a Christian and be in that party?

And, um, and I, I, and I didn't know him, and I'm like, tell me your story.

And he told me a story and I'm telling me a story, how he met Jesus and how

he lives for Jesus, and how his mission field is as a, um, member of Parliament,

he started to tell me about the people who he prayed with almost every week.

And they were drawn from all well, labor party, conservative

park, and the liberals.

And I'm like, what?

And you know, sometimes we don't know what is happening and sometimes you

think, how can that actually happen?

But you know, God was doing something in them because

they submitted to one another.

They still at their different political beliefs, but they were able to put

that aside and their faith in Christ.

Supreme, but they made a choice to do that, and I pray that as and we

finish here, that you will know what it is to live under the authority of

God, the authority of his word, and that as we surrender our lives to him,

as we draw near to him, he will draw near to us and speak his life into us.

Thank you.

Thanks, Dave.

That was great.

There was like just so much in there, wasn't there?

Mm-hmm.

Um, the, the thing that struck me most actually as you were talking was

just that thing of like, submission and coming under God's authority is

for like our benefit and for really place of protection and safety.

And I, I hadn't really thought about it in that way before.

Mm. Sort of like God's God, so you have to come under his authority.

But hadn't thought about it as actually, like, also protection, like the way, you

know, parents would protect children.

Yeah.

Um, like to come under their authority and Yeah.

And it's just, yeah.

So much in there.

And, and I think there's, there's been a lot of chat as you've been

talking on, on the feed, so I think we'll unpack some of that in a minute.

But lots of people saying they find it a difficult issue.

Um, quite difficult to submit and other people saying they're quite

prone to just doing what they're told and going with the flee.

So I think people on bay sides of the fence, but what did you think Sharon?

As I was listening, I was kind of, my brain was forming like these

broad categories, and I think Dave was both speaking about God's ideal,

like how he set the world up to be and that if we live that, so if

you've got, um, so the leadership is meant to be servant leadership.

So if you've got leaders who are serving people and you've got people submitting to

that, I mean, how amazing would that be?

Hmm.

If you think about that in terms of your workplace, like if your boss is.

Just there, like to serve the people and to help them do a good job and

to look out for them, as well as obviously doing the, the work or

in school or in our government.

I imagine what that would look like.

Mm. That would be amazing.

Yeah.

And that is amazing.

Yeah.

But.

On the other, that other side of that we've, we live in this world, which is

not the perfect way that God set it up.

So it's kind of my brain's in these two little, the ideal, but then how

does that work in the non-ideal?

Yeah.

But then I think Dave again gave us quite a few verses on examples of how

we live that out in the non-ideal world.

Mm. I think Jesus was a great example of how to do that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's really good.

So yeah, there's loads of little.

I've got lots of thoughts.

Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's, it's hard, isn't it, because exactly

that Sharon, like we live in this broken world where you have lots

of poor examples of leadership.

Yeah.

Like politics, you know, Dave was just talking about it and you know, there's

lots of examples of leaders who harm people, who abuse people's trust.

We see it every day in the news.

Don't read from our own politicians.

Um, lots of good examples too, but it, I think people's trust in leaders.

In every sphere.

It's like really eroded in our culture and Yeah.

You know, for the church too.

Yeah.

I, I, I think lots of church leaders who've harm people and, you know,

you touched on that as well, Dave.

Yeah.

But I guess it's that thing of, um, yeah.

Kind of coming under their leadership, but ultimately you're

under the authority of God.

Yeah.

And, and him.

And that's, that's what allows you to, if you're under God's protection,

under his leadership and authority, that allows you to kind of, um.

Yeah, just, just find that grace for imperfect leaders as well.

I, I guess a little bit,

and I think sadly even in church, that we have created things

like celebrity leaders mm-hmm.

And celebrity worship leaders and everybody's celebrity.

And, you know, when church starts off, seldom is it like that, it's usually.

Built out a relationship and um, and, and, and, and closeness.

And as it grows and grows, people say, well, you know,

how would you maintain that?

Well, hopefully you've modeled something, you know, and, and when, when you,

you guys were talking then I was thinking, um, I'm sure we're all big.

We don't have a pec family, but you know, we start off, we get married

and we're madly in love and you know, we have our children and we

set some structure in our homes.

That we believe to be right and beneficial.

Mm-hmm.

And, and for our children, it is a safe place.

And, and we, and we do things we might not always communi, communicate it well.

We might be sometimes even too rigid on it, but those things are there for

the wellbeing of that family unit.

And, um, that's what this submission and authority in all these different,

it's, it's there for, for the benefit and yet it's almost soon as you talk

submission or there's, there's a kickback, you know, and we're talking obviously

as Christians, so I would have to say if we are getting a kickback, they're

still broken us sins and the Bible actually calls it, sorry, rebellion.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, so we have to deal with our rebellious hall, or it could simply

be saying that we're hate and, and people, we love haters, don't they?

People we love let us down and some of it is even is, is quite sinister

obviously, and people are abused and, um, and, and that is a very real situation.

Mm-hmm.

There's a couple of comments I quite like to pick up on.

Yeah.

So we've got Lady Beby, uh, who said submitting is easier

when you're surrounded by love.

My husband is incredibly loving, and I know he always

has my best interests at heart.

It makes it easier to submit to him, and I think that's an example

of how when we, when things are the way God set them up to be.

Absolutely.

Because if you have got, um, a husband who loves you, like

Christ loved the church mm-hmm.

Basically laying down his life, washing your feet, doing all that.

It makes like submission is just like we said earlier, it's a breeze, isn't it?

And that that, isn't that the thing that um, real leadership

should be servant leadership.

Yeah.

So that was the example Jesus gave us.

He was the servant king.

He was the servant leader.

So actually that's our perfect model.

You know, we talk about church leaders, but actually.

Should be the big, the church.

Absolutely.

Pastor should be the biggest, you know, servant of all.

Mm-hmm.

They're serving the whole congregation with their lives.

Right.

Yeah.

It strikes me that that whole idea of submission is about laying down your life.

Yes.

So, Christ laid us life down for us, and then we lay down our lives for each other.

And for me, that's like every time, and you know, I'm quite a

strong-minded, opinionated woman.

Right.

And I, I find submission hard in my marriage.

To, you know, and what does that mean when we're like, we

both work, everything's 50, 50.

Mm. Like, what does that look like in the modern world that we actually live in now?

And you know, I think actually just serving each other's needs and preferring

each other's needs, that's a, that's a lot of it for me anyway, like

absolutely keep coming back to that.

Like, how am I serving my husband and how is he serving me?

And how are we both serving our family?

Yeah.

And it's challenging, isn't it?

But I think that's a great model and a great kind of point to come

back to that Sonia has just made.

Yeah.

Can I just say, I, I think what Anna's just said then, um, I

think there, that's a great way.

Um, you may wanna play it back if, if, if, um, the recording.

I think it's a great way to see.

Safe proof your marriage, you know?

And, um, there's just some real key gems in that, you know?

And I said, you know, she, you know, you think you have an opinion,

you know, submission doesn't mean that you become a robo.

Um,

or that you always agree then

Absolutely.

And you can agree to disagree.

Yeah.

And sometimes things just get worked out, don't they?

But safe proofing your marriage comes out of preferring somebody else's need.

And sometimes that, you know, say, you know what, we're gonna go with that.

It's, it's not my first choice, but you said it and I trust you.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Can I pick up on some comments from the opposite end of the spectrum?

Yeah, I do.

So we've got, Deon says, um, what do we do when leaders are asking for

submission but they're harming people?

The Crown Prosecution service today share about a Liverpool pastor convicted of

17 sex offenses against girls and women.

Yes.

I know that case very, very well.

Um, first of all, I would be saying, you know, I would

never join a church overnight.

I would want to get to know the leaders, and I would want them to be, again, as

Anna said, I would want to recognize real servant leadership in them.

And, um, you know, um.

People get all hung up about judging.

We have to see the fruit in somebody's life.

Mm-hmm.

Anybody can stand up.

Do a talk like, like a TED talk, you know, um, on a Sunday morning, and

they can have whatever title they have, but you have a personal responsibility

to weigh what they are saying.

And if you, if you are there saying, well, that's judging, well, I

would say read through Corinthians.

'cause it tells you, you ought to judge saying what is being said.

You know, but again, it's heart wrenching.

When I hear about these people being hurt and broken, I rere.

It really upsets me.

And you know, God help those people.

I pray that they're in a setting where people can care for them.

But I do want to say as, as though that is real and true, we will know

hundreds and thousands of ordinary men and women who faithfully serve.

Their churches or their small groups, whether, whether they meet in front

rooms or in cathedrals, you know?

So I would say, um, don't let these terrible, terrible stories

rob you from being in fellowship.

Mm-hmm.

I think also Jesus had his harshest words for the religious leaders mm-hmm.

Who were oppressing people and like outwardly looking.

And

spiritual.

Yeah.

But actually in, in their hearts they were, they weren't great.

So yeah, I can imagine that as well.

God's not gonna be for these situations.

Yeah.

And we are told to, like, if we see a brother in sin,

uh, to challenge that we see

absolutely

don't just go talking to anybody, but we're not just meant to

go along with these things.

And also there are situations in the Bible where I think.

Um, people submit as far as they can, but I think there is

a, a cut of point sometimes.

So like, for example, there's a guy called Daniel in the Old

Testament, and the king said, mm-hmm.

Uh, everyone has to bow down and worship me.

But he knew that was against God's law.

Yeah.

So although he could submit to other parts of what the king was saying mm-hmm.

For that, he was like, no, I can't do that.

Because that goes against what God's saying and there's, yeah.

There are many other examples of people who were trying to be submissive,

submissive to the authority.

But you can do that only as far as, it doesn't clash with what God's saying.

You know, if you, if they're asking you to do something that's wrong or

collude with something that's wrong, then that will be a no, I would say.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think, yeah, it needs saying explicitly, I think that if you.

If you are in a church or any kind of community workplace where you feel

like you're being asked or expected to submit to people who aren't safe places,

like you don't have to stay there.

God doesn't want you to stay there.

Absolutely.

Like that's not good.

You can, it's okay to walk away.

Yeah.

But just don't walk away and go nowhere.

Yeah.

Go walk, walk away and find another good, godly, healthy

Christian community to be part of.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, I don't think God wants us to submit to things that are unsafe.

Ungodly, yeah.

Um, put us, us or others at harm.

And I think if we see that stuff, we Yeah.

We have to call it out.

Um,

yeah, yeah,

yeah.

So also made another good point, which is that home and family

isn't a safe place for everyone.

When raised in spaces like this, it's imperative that leaders also

have grace for parishioners who may struggle with submission.

It's not always rebellion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's I think where relationship comes in, isn't it?

And over time.

Yeah.

And yeah.

Um, yeah.

Walking through with somebody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've got so many good points here today.

I've got loads more as well.

Um, keep going.

Yeah.

I just, you carry on while I look for some more on here.

Um,

yeah, but we, we've been round, uh, you know, over the years and haven't we,

and you know, as, as you know, being a big church, we've people from lots of

different types of families, you know, some people from Christian families and

the good, and people from other, from Christian families are not so good.

And.

For me, I'm, I'm quite aware of people's experience, but we have a responsibility

to model, you know, not, we're not perfect and we, you know, we wanna

be real and authentic with people.

So somebody may have had a terrible home.

Like all we can do is welcome them in to our families, to our table, you know,

and, and, and be authentic with them.

And in the hope that as they see.

Something moral them that they will get healing.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I know we've had many people live with us and they've come from lots

of different situations and I think as you live with people and you see people

living in freedom, not perfection, but in know freedom, it just stays hope in you.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Catherine said that she's a bit opposite to some of the views, you

know, as some views are saying.

Um, it's.

Difficult to submit to authority.

She was the other end.

And, um, often too scared not to do what I'm told.

So end up feeling less of a person.

Yeah.

Which, yeah, I can, I can relate to that from, I think years ago when I

was just used to being controlled.

And then, um, yeah.

But I, I think to have a full view of the Bible, like Jesus

is a great example of this.

I think because he was both somebody, um.

Like people said that they could tell he spoke with authority.

Mm-hmm.

So he, obviously we as Christians, we believe that he was God,

so he's got the authority.

Mm-hmm.

But at the same time he submitted himself Yeah.

As a servant to people.

Yeah.

But he also wasn't a walkover.

Yeah.

Because he knew who he was.

Yeah.

And I think that's a, a good thing that as we get to know who God says we are,

that we can hold those things in tension.

That we can be strong.

Not just cave into

Yeah.

Any whim or Do you know what I mean?

But also have the strength to be able to submit.

Mm-hmm.

So, yeah, I think it's a journey that we go on, isn't it?

And we all, and

it's come

from different

points.

Yeah, that's right.

And I, and I think, um, a lot of it, it's really about

submitting to the Holy Spirit.

Yes.

And to, to really listen and know God's voice in your own life.

Because strikes me that a perfect example of.

Authority is God, right?

God is love.

God is perfect.

Mm-hmm.

So there's absolute safety in.

Being

Yes.

In in God's presence.

Yeah.

You know, where God dwells having him as the Lord of your life.

Yeah.

That that is the safe place.

And you know, you're talking about like, oh, it can be a bit of a

scary thing to submit sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

And I think, but perfect love drives out all fear.

Yeah.

That's what the Bible says.

So for me, that's the perfect example.

And all of the human examples we've got like marriages, workplaces, churches.

They can be good or bad, you know, lesser degrees of good and bad, but

none of them are absolutely perfect.

Yeah.

Um, but I feel like ultimately, you know, I work in an imperfect workplace.

I have a good family, but it's not perfect.

You know, I go to a good church, but again, it's not perfect.

And for me it's like that constant listening to God.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Like.

Helps me to know, like they've said, how to dis discern good fruit,

bad fruit, what's right, what's wrong, what I should yield to.

'cause ultimately we're called to submit to God, aren't we?

Yeah.

First and Foremostly.

Um,

yeah.

So that can be, yeah, that's really key for me.

Like if you can be really clear on.

Listening to God's voice and knowing that, you know, you're

sort of fully submitted to him.

Mm-hmm.

And knowing that he is the perfect one to submit to, 'cause he's all of yes,

totally safe, then that should help with other areas of submission in life and

what is or isn't a good place to be in.

And.

Rights to submit to.

Some things aren't right to submit to, are they Dave?

That's

right.

Yeah.

And I, and I

think we

shouldn't just jump in.

Mm-hmm.

I think we, we, we should be discern about social discern, but

there is a cost in, in submission and there's a cost not, you know?

Um, and I just love the thing about, you know, when we have a humble, regardless

of what, um, where we are on the scale, you know, and wherever we are, but,

you know, if we have a humble heart and we're, we're, we're like, I just wanna be.

You want me to be, I wanna do what you want me to do.

Um, you know, God knows our horse and Holy Spirit key, he leads us,

you know, and he doesn't always place us with perfect people, you know?

And what we all a bit smarter now than what we were like 10, 15, 20 years ago.

You know?

And, and, and also we're, we're 20 years deeper into that walk.

Mm-hmm.

And, and for me.

I honestly believe you know, this topic, it just, when if you have

a conversation with somebody, it shows you where their heart is

and that's not a judgmental thing.

Mm-hmm.

You know, but to move forward it takes humility and a trust in God.

Mm-hmm.

And I would say don't trust in God through a story somebody else has told you.

Trusting God through what His way tells you.

So again, one of my favorite verse is he says, I'll never leave you or abandon you.

Yeah.

And you can stand on that, so absolutely solid regardless

what you're going through.

But that takes submission.

'cause you have to align yourself to that.

And I think this is a process, isn't it?

Like I think of all the things in my life where.

There's a lot of mess and, um, it, it's like a journey with God and

being surrounded by people like we've talked about, that mixture of the Holy

Spirit and people alongside us Yeah.

Who can just help us, that we gradually grow into those things.

Mm-hmm.

It's rarely like an instant, oh, I can just switch into this now.

Yeah.

Pretend that none of that hurt.

Whatever's happened.

I think the Holy Spirit's very gentle, isn't he?

And he leads us, and yeah, he leads us into that place of wholeness over time.

Yeah.

Sean, I, I just think it's really quite important to say that, you know, if people

who are watching or, or listening to this, um, if you are in a situation and you are

being, we could say abused or controlled.

Or manipulated, reach out to somebody, reach out to a friend.

Reach out to somebody.

Do not stay in a place that is not safe for you.

That is not God's desire.

Mm-hmm.

To do that.

Yeah.

And we really do write in, write into Crowd and somebody will connect

with you and just share with you.

Um, because we don't want you in an unsafe place.

There's no benefit for somebody to stay in a dangerous place.

A hundred percent.

A hundred percent.

I, yeah, totally agree with that.

Um, I'm aware that time is ticking on.

Um, and yeah, so I just kind of wanted to say there any final comments

coming through Sharon, or any last points that you wanna pick up on?

Um, Dave, what will come to you While she's having quite back,

I'm just glad that for all that churches and all it's different.

Forms, et cetera.

You know, in the good times I was, I'm glad that over the many years I've been a

Christian, I've got, had the privilege of walking through the good times and the bad

times with people and, and, and it is, I, I, I really value that I, and receiving

such amazing treasures from people.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I just think my final takeaway really from tonight is just that.

Submission is a gift.

Mm-hmm.

And it's meant to benefit our lives.

Yes, absolutely.

And enrich, enrich our lives and take us into places of safety.

Yeah.

And security and wholeness and

yeah.

That's my big takeaway.

Yeah.

Like, it's so easy to think, oh, submission's like trying to control

me, coerce me, hold me down.

Yeah.

Make me less.

Yeah.

And actually when it's done well and in love,

absolutely.

It will make you more.

Absolutely.

And that that's the thing that is, yeah.

Really key for me.

Mm-hmm.

What about you, Sharon?

Any last takeaways?

Um.

I guess I could finish with another, another.

Message from Dion who says, good church leaders can be a great

source of healing for people like me who've had trust broken in the past.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, I totally agree.

Not necessarily just leaders, but just Christian people who maybe walk

through that or just know the presence of God in their lives and Yeah,

we, we need each other, don't we?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So yeah.

Holy Spirit and other people.

Yeah.

Great mixture.

Yeah.

This Walk of Faith is not meant to be done as a solo.

Absolutely.

It doesn't work on your own very well.

No,

absolutely not.

So yeah, I'm so grateful for community like this and Crowd

Church and others that we know.

Yeah.

Um, so wrapping up then, Sharon, do you know what's happening next week?

Yeah, I do.

Tell us about, 'cause I'm speaking next week and it's about the dating

courtship kind of relationships, but it will be, um, relevant if

you are past that stage and you.

Married.

But yeah.

So yeah, come along.

Dating, courtship relationships.

Yeah.

The whole lot.

Yep.

Awesome.

Sounds good to me.

I'll be tuning in.

Um, Dave, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

It's lovely.

Always good to hear your wisdom.

I think we

have live lounge now,

don't we?

Yeah, yeah, we do.

We have live lounge.

So do find the link in the, in the, um, feed if you want to join us

Yeah.

Uh, in a more intimate one-to-one chat.

So for those of you who don't know yet, we will stick around now and you can

join us and actually like chat with us.

There's any of your questions there, or just come and meet us.

Just

say

hello.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So come and join us with that.

Great.

And otherwise, we'll see you next Sunday for more Crowd.

Goodbye.