When Enough Is Never Enough | Money Part 1

Well, good evening and welcome to Crowd Church.

My name's Matt.

Sorry about the technical glitch.

There we're a few minutes late, uh, but we seem to have resolved it at least.

I hope we have.

We were basically gonna hear aid twice, twice, and as much as I like

aid, I don't wanna hear him twice.

Um, so yeah, very warm.

Welcome to you.

Uh, it's great that you are with us.

Um, if you, this is your first time with us.

Uh, Crowd is an online church.

Uh, so we do church, but we do it online.

So towards the end of the service we're gonna have something

which we call live Lounge.

Uh, and so at about, I guess about 40 minutes or so, somewhere around there.

I'm just looking at the clock on my right.

Uh, we will go into Live Lounge, um, which is where we just

get together on Google Meet.

So, uh, if you're around, come say How's it?

Uh, it'd be great to see you.

It's just like a Zoom basically, but just on Google, Google Meet, the URL

is Go Crowd Church slash meet and hopefully my beautiful wife who's on the

comments, we'll put that in the comments.

Uh, go Crowd Church slash meet MEET.

Now to my left is the beautiful Dan, uh, Dan say, how's it?

Hello, Matthew.

Hello.

How you doing?

Uh, and joining us, uh, to also host with us is aid all the way from North Wales.

Uh, can we see aid.

How you doing aid?

Hello?

I'm okay, thank you.

Just the one of me

just, it is just one of you,

which we're all grateful for eight.

Uh, but it's good to have you join us.

So we are gonna be hosting Crowds Night there, three of us, which is great.

We've got Pete Farrington, uh, kicking off our series about

money, which is always a bit of a

mm,

a bit of a juicy topic.

Yeah, I'm loving this and it's, I was thinking about it, um, today.

It is for everyone, isn't it?

Yeah.

Who lives.

Doesn't matter if you've, you've got money.

You haven't got money, doesn't matter if you, I was thinking it doesn't matter

if you, you barter, you don't use cash.

It's the same thing.

It's where are your priorities?

How would you live?

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

What's first in your life?

You know, what rules your life.

Oh yeah.

I'm looking forward to Pete's talk.

Yeah, absolutely.

Me too.

So before we get started, let me give a shout.

Jody's in the comments.

Jody, how you doing?

How's little Beynon?

Hopefully you're doing well.

Uh, Sharon's in the comments.

Uh, Luna, also known as Roz is in the comments.

So, hey Roz, how you doing?

Um.

Lady Burke B is in the comments who happens to be AID'S wife.

So aid you best be on your best behavior son.

Um, so yeah, very warm.

Welcome to everybody joining us.

If you are also watching, you can join in, in the comments.

Um, and any questions you wanna ask, put 'em in the comments.

We'll try and get to those in Conversation Street after the talk.

Any of your own thoughts, any stories you wanna share?

Um, do let us know.

Put those in the comments.

Um, but yeah, aid, have I missed anything?

I don't think so.

Just put him on the spot there.

Yeah.

He's like,

what?

You just, you just say it's like international time delay.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Absolutely.

Well, listen, without further ado, let's get Pete Farrington on doing

the talk then Dan, and I'll be back for Conversation Street with aid.

So make sure you write your questions, et cetera in the comments.

We'd love to see you in there.

Um, but yeah, here's Pete.

Hello Crowd.

It's lovely to be with you today and welcome to week one of

our five part series on money.

Over the coming weeks, we're gonna be unpacking different aspects of money and

what the Bible has to say about it all.

But for today, I'm gonna try and give like a 30,000 foot view, if you like,

of the the who and the what money is for now, whether we realize it or not.

We all have a relationship with money.

But I think for many of us, we never really stopped to examine

what kind of relationship that is.

And if you've never read much of the Bible, you would be shocked

to discover just how much the Bible talks about this subject.

In fact, Jesus only spoke about three other subjects more than money.

And the Bible holds up a mirror to the human heart, and it's no

less effective or relevant than it was 2000 years ago, maybe.

I mean, maybe back then they were trading with camels and goats, and now, now we

do so with digits on a computer screen.

But in terms of the human heart, nothing's changed as it was 2000 years ago.

So it is today.

And Jesus knew then what a snare money can be, and it's the same today.

And it's interesting 'cause I was preparing this talk.

It only took me about two minutes to realize like we we're not

really talking about money.

Today we're talking about something far deeper than that.

We're talking about longing and desire and hope and safety and fear.

Now, when John d Rockefeller, who was the world's first billionaire, was

asked How much money is enough, he famously replied just a little bit more.

And I think we can all relate with that.

Maybe not with being a billionaire, but I mean, maybe you do relate

with that, but, but we all know that feeling of like, oh, if I just had that

little bit more then I'd feel secure.

And, and so we all understand how easy it is to become a slave to money or a slave

to attaining or maintaining a certain, a certain lifestyle or standard of living or

that next thing we're hoping to acquire.

So let's go to a verse in the Sermon on the Mount, which is

where Jesus went to great lengths to to address internal motivations

and not just external behavior.

He said this in Matthew six verse 24.

No one can serve two masters for either he will hate the one and love

the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

You cannot serve God and money.

Now in most of our English bibles, we see the word money there, but in the

original language it's, it's this word mammon from the Greek Maas, which is

like treasure or riches or wealth.

So Jesus says we cannot serve God and mammon.

And what he's doing here is he's personifying wealth and then setting

him up as a rival master who is competing with God for our service

and our affections and our allegiance.

And this is of great significance because it means that money isn't neutral.

It's an excellent servant, but it's a terrible master.

Now, in, in Roman culture, at the time to be in debt was to be a

client or a servant to a patron.

And so the audience would've understood serving two masters

viscerally, they would've known like you literally could not belong to

two estate owners at the same time.

So this wasn't just a metaphor them, this was part of their experience.

And when it comes to money, I think Christians often go to one of two extremes

of viewing having much as evidence of God's blessing and favor or viewing

having little as some higher form of spirituality, and then arrogantly,

assuming the worst of people who have more than us, that there's a lot of that

around today, but neither pride in luxury.

Nor pride in lack is good.

They're both pride and they're both like a form of trying to save

yourself of ransoming your life.

And you don't have to be rich to serve mammon.

You just have to trust money more than God for your security.

'cause a poor person can serve mamon too by obsessing over getting it just

as easily as a rich person can serve.

Mammon by obsessing over keeping it.

So this isn't.

It's just about how much, it's not about how much you have.

This is about where you place your trust.

So is money your servant or your master.

It's so interesting that God speaks about himself and mammon as, as these

two contrasting masters, and it really begs the question, so in like in what

way does one serve money and what does our service of money reveal?

Uh, to us about how we should rightly serve God.

John Piper and Pax, these two questions like this, he says, serving money doesn't

mean doing things to meet money's need.

You serve money by calculating all your plans, your efforts to benefit

from what money promises you.

You calculate your whole life to benefit from what money promises you.

Your life revolves around trying to put yourself in the position of

the greatest benefit from money.

Now, that's also what it means to serve God.

He continues to say you serve God by calculating all your plans and

all your efforts to benefit from all that God promises to be for you.

Your life revolves around trying to put yourself under the waterfall of God's

greatest blessing, positioning yourself for the greatest benefit God has to give.

Namely himself.

I really do think that the truest form of worship is, is found in our

attending to whatever it is in which we find the most satisfaction is putting

our investment in the place which we believe will give us the greatest return.

So is money your servant or your master?

And here's another question.

What does your spending and your saving reveal about who or what you really trust?

Because I think a, a real Christian lives for profit and a true Christian lives

for gain, a Christian lives for wealth, and he will die in the pursuit of it too.

Now, you might hear me say that, whoa, whoa, I beat you.

Can't say that.

You can't say that.

But time after time in the Old Testament, God rebukes his people

for rejecting and forsaking him and turning away to, to lowercase gods.

Made by their own hands that can never profit them.

It uses that language over and over and over again.

In the Old Testament, a real Christian lives for profit, and I could prove

this just by going back a few verses in Matthew six from that passage.

In the Sermon on the Mount, it says in verse 19, do not lay up

for yourselves treasures on earth.

Where moths and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal.

Now a lot of us will just stop there and, okay, that's what I shouldn't do.

But he continues.

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor

rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in and steal for where

your treasure is there, your heart will be also a real Christian.

Piles up treasures for himself in heaven.

And this is why I believe that some of the most authentic worship actually

happens outside of church and outside of Christianity, where we don't

see the same pretense of leaving your hunger and thirst at the door.

Because this world is full of people who unashamedly declare with their actions.

I am trying to maximize my pleasure and comfort here in this life.

But a true Christian says, I am trying with all my life and even with my

money to maximize my pleasure and joy and comfort in God for all eternity.

That's what a true Christian does.

Let's go to one Timothy chapter six, verses six to 10, but godliness

with contentment is great gain.

For, we brought nothing into the world and we cannot take anything outta the world.

But if we have food and clothing with these, we will be content.

But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare,

and into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin

and destruction for the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.

It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith.

And have pierced themselves with many pangs.

Now, note there that it doesn't say those who desire to own a business

so that they can produce jobs and wealth for others, or those who

desire to fund missionaries around the world, or those who desire to build

orphanages and hospitals and schools.

Now it's talking about those who desire to be rich.

I just want to be rich.

That's the type of person it's talking about here.

Lemme say it this way.

If you, if you love money, you will dash the system of your heart to pieces so that

all you have left are broken ards with which to scoop up sewage water that will

only poison and kill and never satisfy.

And all the while, the waterfall of God's love stands behind you

just waiting to quench your thirst.

That's what it's talking about when it says the love of money

is a root of all kinds of evils.

That's what it's talking about when it says the desire to be rich is talking

about those who put their trust and their faith in money to satisfy.

It also says in one Timothy six, as for the rich in this present age,

charge them not to be haughty nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty

of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

So money is an excellent servant, but it's a terrible master and mammon.

Makes countless promises in exchange for your soul and he can keep none of them.

Conversely, God is a, is a wonderful master and he makes countless

promises in exchange for all of your hunger, and he will keep

every single one of those promises

we read there that we brought nothing into the world and we can

take nothing out of the world.

So another question we, we really need to consider here is

whose world are we living in?

It says in Psalm 24 verse one, the Earth is the Lord's and everything in it.

Everything.

So here's the thing, theologically, we own nothing.

King David, towards the end of his life, had amassed a huge fortune,

which he was gonna pass down to his son Solomon, to build a temple for God.

And in this moment of his, his greatest financial contribution, this legacy

gift that he was giving to his son, he refuses to take credit for it.

He says this in one Chronicles 29.

But who am I and who are my people that we should be able

to give as generously as this?

Everything comes from you and we have only given you what comes from your hand.

And Deuteronomy eight, it says, beware lest you say in your heart,

my power and the might of my hand have God, me this wealth.

You shall remember the Lord your God for it is He who

gives you power to get wealth.

Even the, even the getting of your wealth, even your working

for it is a gift from God.

Nothing that we have here is, is truly ours.

And so we are to think of ourselves not as owners, but as stewards.

This is absolutely core.

Really to everything that we're gonna talk about over the coming weeks.

So how could your management of money more closely reflect

stewardship than ownership?

Like when you give, do you feel like you are losing something

or returning something?

And what would change?

How would, how would you manage your finances differently if you

genuinely believed that you were managing someone else's money?

Now, just as an example, and I'm not going to go into detail into this, uh, 'cause

there's just not the time for it today, but there's this mad thing that Christians

have done for millennia called tithing.

You, you might have heard of it, uh, but part of the, it, it's, it's where

Christians give 10% of their, their, their first and their best back to God.

And part of the meaning and purpose of tithing is a

recognition and acknowledgement that everything belongs to God.

Everything.

And if you've been a Christian for a while like me, if.

You, you, you probably have forgotten a bit about how counter-cultural

this is and how mad to the world this is, that like you give 10% and

then obviously your, your taxes is gonna go as well, and then whatever's

left, that's, you know, that's mine.

And it's easy.

It's easy if you've been a Christian while to think like that.

Like, God, this percent is yours and the rest is all mine.

And, you know, and it just goes out in a standing order or a direct debit and you

don't even really think about it much.

But it's not just that, that 10% is, is god's and and giving of that

giving of that tithe is, is worship.

But actually the other 90% is also part of our worship to

God and it's all his anyway.

But that's kind of what we like to do, isn't it?

We like to com compartmentalize our lives so that we can kind of

retain at least a part of it to be a lowercase guard of something.

Our own little, our own little domain.

But true worship of God is to, is to reject the sewage water of this world and

that lie that this is mine, true worship, is to arrange all of life, including

our money, so that we can stand beneath that waterfall of God's all satisfying

love with every ounce of our longing.

And our trust and to drink deeply there.

And the truth is that many of the people that we look up to in this world, so

many of the people that we are in awe of and even aspire to be according

to biblical standards, many of these people belong in the category of fools.

And so where we would.

Look and say, wow, what an accomplishment that is.

The Bible says What foolishness and where we would look and say,

wow, that's amazing success.

The Bible would say, what utter tragedy, and the Bible is just

replete with warnings about the perils of trusting in wealth.

Note that trusting in wealth, Proverbs 11 says, rich is.

Do not profit.

There's that language.

Again, riches do not profit in the day of wrath, but

righteousness delivers from death.

It goes on to say, when the wicked dies, his hope will perish and the

expectation of wealth perishes too.

Further on in verse 20, then verse 28, whoever trusts in his riches

will fall, but the righteous will flourish like a green leaf.

I. Okay.

There's a story in the New Testament where, uh, a young rich man goes to

Jesus and, and he says to him, what, what must I do to inherit eternal life?

And Jesus replies by saying, oh, you know the commandments.

Do not murder.

Do not commit adultery.

Do not steal.

Do not bear false witness.

Do not defraud honor your father and mother.

And the guy replies by saying, but I've, I've done all these things from my youth.

And then Jesus responds by saying, you lack one thing.

Go sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have

treasure in heaven and come follow me.

Now, the man's issue was not that he had great possessions.

His problem was that he was unwilling to give them up.

And why was that?

It is because he viewed them as a surer source of satisfaction than Jesus.

And on almost every page in the gospels in the New Testament, Jesus is trying

to turn people's thoughts to eternity.

He actually didn't even scold this man for desiring.

In fact, he appealed to that man's desire.

Verse 21, he said, you lack one thing.

Sell all that you have and give to the poor.

Now, he could have stopped there, right?

But he didn't.

He continued.

Sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you

will have treasure in heaven.

We've heard that before, haven't we?

Now, the reality is that too many of us are preparing for

retirement, but not for eternity.

So.

As we draw this to a close, I'm going to, uh, leave you with a psalm.

It's a, it's a sobering psalm, but it's really powerful.

Psalm 49 says this, hear this all peoples give ear, all inhabitants of the world,

both low and high, rich and poor together.

Verse verse five, it continues.

Why should I fear in times of trouble when the iniquity of

those who cheat me surrounds me?

Those who trust in their wealth and boast in the abundance of their riches, truly

no man can ransom another or give to God.

The price of his life for the ransom of their life is costly and can never

suffice, that he should live on forever.

Never see the pit.

For he sees that even the wise die, the fool and the stupid alike must perish

and leave their wealth to others, their graves or their homes forever.

They're dwelling places to all generations.

Though they're called lands by their own names, man in his pomp will not remain.

He is like the beasts, the perish.

This is the path of those who have foolish confidence.

Yet after them, people approve of their boasts like sheep.

They are appointed for sheel.

Death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule

over them in the morning.

The form shall be consumed in Sheel with no place to dwell.

But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheel, for he will receive me.

Be not afraid.

When a man becomes rich, when the glory of his house increases for when

he dies, he will carry nothing away.

His glory will not go down after him.

For though while he lives, he counts himself.

Blessed, and though you get praise when you do well for yourself.

His soul will go to the generation of his fathers, who will never again see

light man in his PO is yet without understanding man in his pomp.

Yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish to live

with understanding is to trust in a God who will keep his promises.

So today, do not trust, do not serve a master who makes promises he can't keep.

But serve God.

He's a good master and he will keep every promise to the end.

Thanks very much.

Wow.

Where do, where do you even start, right, because

thanks Pete.

What a legend you are.

And I, I just love when I, I could listen to Pete like all day.

The, the man is so rich in what he says.

Um.

So, uh, yeah, thanks for that aid.

I want to go to you straight away, man.

Uh, what did you get from that talk?

I, uh.

I think the, the ownership versus stewardship comes,

comes through really well here.

I mean, talking about we come into this world with nothing.

We leave this world with nothing.

Yeah.

And, uh, you know, very true.

Yet you think about it, you, you know, you go and buy a house.

Your name is on made deed.

It's an asset.

You buy a car, your name's on the bit of paper.

It's an asset.

And we think about this as our asset, but ultimately the assets that we acquire.

Gonna be passed on to someone else or end up in landfill or whatever,

because we can't take them with us.

Yeah.

And therefore it brings it back to, you know, money really is

something that we, we have for a short duration of time that we are

stewards of, just like everything else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

It's an interesting idea, isn't it, Dan?

This idea of stewardship role and ownership.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's why I wrote down that comment that you put, um, how would you think of.

Of money if it was someone else's and you were just stewarding it.

Yeah.

It'd be very different, wouldn't it?

Like at work, you've got to, if you got, if you've got to buy something,

you've gotta justify it, haven't you?

You can't just go way nearly just spending that money.

You, you think about it a bit more.

Yeah.

And I, I really like that.

Yeah.

That way of thinking.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah.

It's really powerful, this whole idea of, um, stewardship, uh, Jen.

Uh, like a said in the comments, you can't take it with you when

you go, and I just responded.

I don't think you need to.

No.

When the were, the streets are paved for gold,

we can't take enough there.

No.

You apparently Jesus talks about, uh, in eternities prepared

a house for us, you know?

Right.

Knowing Jesus, the little bit of I know him.

That house is gonna be a, has.

It's gonna, it's gonna be pretty awesome.

Isn't

Well, it's gonna be.

Here's the thing.

I think it will.

If the, like you say, if the streets are, are paved with gold,

what's he made your house out of?

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And not that I care in many ways.

I think I'll just be glad I'm in heaven.

Yeah.

I think we'll just be looking at him, won't we?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I will.

But I, I do wanna slide down, I've said this before on Crowd might, one

of my chief aims is to slide down those streets of gold in my socks.

Right.

So, yeah, you don't actually need to take it with you when you go.

And I think actually one of the things about eternity, um.

Aid.

I dunno if you thought about this or maybe you got some insight in it, but

one of the things about eternity is I think when we, when we sort of are in

it and we look back to this, everything will pale into insignificance, right?

Yeah.

Aid got any thoughts on that?

Yeah.

We're certainly not going to be wondering, Ooh, does my American Express card.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know, I think it eternity to me, it just, you know, yeah, we can

understand the, the concept of it, but, you know, just trying to imagine

it back, it was beyond my pay grade, you know, it's gonna be so mind

blowing to what we, we currently know and understand now, I think.

There won't be many things, if anything, that we are thinking about from this life.

Um, you know, hopefully the relationships we've had and those have gone with

us, but other than that, I, you know, we're, we're not gonna be thinking

about the wealth we had down here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

It's one of those, and I think if you don't have a mindset of eternity, right,

then it, then it's here, isn't it?

It's here

and now then, then it makes total sense.

I wanna accumulate as much as I can, and so even.

Darwin's theory of, you know, evolution in terms of the survival of the fittest.

Let me accumulate, let me get more than anybody else.

Um, let me amass wealth so I can live, you know, this lifestyle that I wanna live.

That makes sense.

If there's no eternity,

yeah.

Right.

Why, why would it not make sense?

But in this, in the concept and in the ideology of eternity.

Yeah.

Then you can see why Jesus is going store it for yourself.

Treasured in heaven.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And even, even on earth, that amassing it.

It's that slave being a slave to it, isn't it?

Like that, that quote from, um, Rockefeller, how much is Enough?

Oh, just a little bit more.

Just a little bit more.

It's a

great quote.

Yeah.

And it's just, you know, richest man in the world.

Still a slave.

Yeah.

Still that's, that's all that he's, yeah.

In a way, that's all that he's got,

yeah.

Is his.

Desire.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

For more, not, not exactly what he, what he holds.

There's been some interesting debate, I dunno if you've seen this on social media.

Is it Billy Eish?

Eilish?

I dunno, how do you pronounce it?

Yes.

Eilish.

Eilish.

Have I got that right?

Uh, thanks though my Gen Z daughter in the house.

Um, and so she was criticizing the wealth of Elon Musk at some award ceremony.

Yes.

Yeah.

Is that right?

And saying that because he's got like almost half a trillion dollars.

I mean, it is obscene how much money he's got.

Um, and she made some kind of comment about, you know,

no one owns the land, but

she lives on land that was once owned by

Yeah.

An indigenous tribe.

And you're kind of like

in a million, you know, a couple of million pound mansion.

Yeah.

And not to take, again, not to take away from that, but it, it's

relativeness as well, isn't it?

Yeah.

You know, how, how much is to.

Too much.

Yeah.

That argument you can just, you can debate for forever, but if it's not yours,

yeah.

If it's God's, well, this is, this is where it comes back to what you're

saying about stewardship, isn't it?

Because I can look to somebody else and easily judge what

they do with their money.

Yeah.

Right.

They have too much.

They're not giving enough away.

They're too ostentatious.

Why do you need a Ferrari?

Why do you need, but then someone can look at my life and go, why do you need a van?

Why do you, Do you know what I mean?

And I'm still wealthier than 98% of the people on the planet.

I just, because I'm always looking in front of me of what I don't have.

I mean, it, it's, it's easy to judge those people because we don't have it.

But when you talk about stewardship.

It is very much a case of, well, God's given me this.

What am I doing

with it?

What am I doing with my, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A jump in, feel free.

I'm thinking a good way of looking at it is who's the tool?

That's such a good, that's a t-shirt slogan that,

but is money your tool?

Or, um, or, or, or vice versa.

Are, are you basically money's tool, are you looking for money?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That, or are you, you know, using money

mm-hmm.

To do things.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't mean just, you know, to amass more things and more experiences,

but are you using it wisely?

Yeah.

And

interestingly, and,

go on, sorry.

Sorry.

You could have someone, say, you could have someone with, you know, with matched

exorbitant wealth or more so that that looks really flash, but they're using

it in a, in a really, really positive way and they're enriching and benefit.

Many others, and then you could ask someone who, you know, drives

around in a beat Apil truck and it's the exact opposite.

Yeah.

So it really is beyond the, what does it look like?

I think it's really is.

Mm-hmm.

Again, who's the master or who's the tool.

Yeah, yeah.

Who's the tool?

Um, what I want, sorry, what I wanted to jump in and say was that Peter made

a good point right at the beginning saying, um, that you are master.

It could be having too much money, but it could not be having not enough

money, having debt as well, that you, you are then your master still

money, even though you haven't got it.

Yeah.

Um, it's where is your trust?

Where is your identity?

It doesn't, it is, it doesn't, it's not just for people that have money.

What do you do with it?

It's for us that the don't, you know, we are like looking for the next pound

for, you know, for the end of the month.

Um,

well, you know, Pete read the verse, didn't he?

It's the love of money is the root of all evil.

You can commit that sin and not have a penny.

Yeah.

Right.

You don't have to have money to love money.

Um, and so I think it's an often misquoted scripture that

money is the root of all evil.

Yes.

Yeah.

Forget that little,

which is not entirely true.

It's, oops, drop my phone.

It's the love of money that's the root of all evil.

Right?

And so that is not dependent.

On your wealth levels.

Mm.

Um, and it's easy.

Um, it's easy to, you know, Paul says, I've been rich, I've been poor.

I know what it is to be rich.

I know what it is to be poor.

Um, and in both those situations, I've, I've learned the secret

of what it is to be content.

Yeah.

Or independent of circumstances is another way to purchase.

I like

that.

Independent of circumstances.

Yeah.

It's like, I'm not, I'm not going back to what AID said, who's the tool here?

And it's kind of, it's, it's learning to live in a way.

Which is content with what you are steward in for.

God and I That sounds so delightful.

If it, if I can do it.

Mm-hmm.

And it easily rolls off the tongue, but living that, that's

where it gets a little bit sticky.

Um, so yeah, I, I, I'm kind of curious, um, how do you aid, how do you, I suppose.

Because when I think of you and Sonya, I, I think of two people, very content.

I, I, I don't see, you know, I, I'd brag on aid a little bit.

I don't see Ostentatiousness.

Um, what do you guys do in terms of that content lifestyle?

I,

I, uh, I think for us, content is.

Or it has been a journey of learning because we're, you know, we're,

we're in the situation where we, we, we have enough to get by.

We don't, you know, fully own our house and we're not kind of millionaires,

but we're also, you know, we're not, we're not on the street either.

What we have found is the, the health challenges that Sonya's gone through for

that has gotten much, much worse over the last couple of years, has made us

look at how much our lives have shrunk.

Um, and we've saved a fortune.

We haven't been on the holiday in four years because we, we, we just can't.

Yeah.

So there comes a point where it's kind of like, well, there's

actually less things we can do.

So we've been just trying to, uh, find, well, what do we

have left in our life and work?

Can we focus on the happiness?

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Um, and, you know, make memories, do things together, we still can.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, yeah, that's, that's kind of how we've, we've, uh, looked at.

Yeah.

It's still a, it's still a journey of discovery.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

No, I love that.

This, it's about the simplicity of it all, isn't it?

Again, and, and avoid in the complication, uh, of it.

L let's put here, many is a difficult one.

So many verses in the Bible.

About being sensible with money and not wasting it despite the good things, whilst

having lots of warnings about its misuse.

Um, and, uh, Sharon said, yeah, you've, Alice, you've highlighted an,

an interesting tension, hasn't you?

Because it's.

I think Ellis is right.

There is this interest in tension with money that on one hand God gives it you.

Yeah.

Because it is needed.

I do need to pay the mortgage.

I need to buy food, you know, but on the other hand, it, it

really shouldn't be my master.

Yeah.

Um, and not serve it.

And so, you know, we, we try to live generous lives.

We try to give, but then, you know, we do have a car and we, you know, like.

I'll pay the subscription for Skyport so I can watch football games.

Do you know what I mean?

There's, and should I do that?

Should I not?

You know?

And is there's some really interesting debates then, isn't there?

There's a really interest in tension with what you do with your money.

It is a tension, isn't it?

It's like we, we sometimes go away on a holiday and I do struggle with

that 'cause it's like, well, where, where is my, um, where's my priority?

Yeah.

Of money.

Should I, should we be able to do that as a family?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I even, you know, I do pray about it and we do pray for it.

Like even today we're like, we'd, we'd love to go back out.

We've been away the last few years and different reasons.

It's been cut short.

Yes.

And it's like, oh, um, what's going on there?

Um.

But it, but it's, it's always a tension.

Mm-hmm.

There's, there's a hole in our bathroom wall.

You know which one gets, is that not

the door?

No, no.

There's another hole you can see through to behind the shower.

Oh, okay.

So, which, which one gets fixed?

Yeah.

Fixed first.

And, and it is,

yeah,

it is, it is priorities.

And it's, God,

in, in your notes for this, there's, there's the, there's often like this, um.

Gospel that everything, you know, you pray for, you get, and then there's

the, well, we, we don't have any money.

We're gonna live in, in poverty.

And there is that tension God provides.

He provides for his children.

Yeah.

He has provided for us.

He's brought for, for a house.

And it's a, it's a nice house.

Yeah.

We could live in a tent and we still be all alive.

Yeah.

Where, where is, but, but who's holding onto that?

Yeah.

Who's holding onto that house?

Could I. Is it mine or is it god's?

Yeah.

And that's a big question for me.

Yeah.

And it is, it's, it's an, your house I think is an interesting one, isn't it?

Because I mean, we've talked a fair bit on Crowd about hospitality.

Mm. Right?

And, and so you have the house at, you know.

If your life, if your life allows you, I appreciate not everybody can do,

it's difficult for Safe and Sonia, but that, to have that lifestyle

of hospitality or that that open house where people, you know where

you're using your house all the time.

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

And I find myself, and I dunno, Dan or aid, if you've done this where

you really want something, right?

Yeah.

And you're like, if I get this, God, I will use it to, dot, dot, dot.

Yes.

Right.

So a few years ago, I probably shouldn't tell this, but, um, I came back from,

uh, a trip to the late district and I said to Sharon, we should get a boat.

Sharon's like, we're not getting a boat.

I'm like, we could totally get a boat because wouldn't,

it would be great for me.

Just being out on the water is my, you know, I'm in it's lush, but also.

I said, you know, the guys from church, I could take him up there.

We could do discipleship in the ba. In my head, I'm trying to

justify it with Christian ministry.

Sharon's like, we're not getting a boat.

It's the same, but But like we were talking about business, isn't it?

Yeah.

You have to put that justification in.

I have lots of tools for my business and some of them I don't use as

much as perhaps I justified the

purchase of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you ever justify a purchase like that or is it just me?

Yeah, I'm, I'm like, God, if, if, if I get that hair transplant and

get the, like I'll, often he does.

And it is the, he is not released it yet.

No, it is not released.

The, uh, the

brilliant.

Oh, that is brilliant.

Yeah.

I can't say, as I've, I've thought about it.

That's all.

Uh, I, I dunno where to go with that now.

Um, so yeah, so I think, I think stewardship, I think eternity,

I think the tension in terms of what you spend your money on.

Um, Pete even mentioned something right at the end there about, um.

We're all planning our retirements, but we're not planning

necessarily for fraternity.

And what Pete isn't saying, lemme just be clear, is it's

wrong to put him for a pension.

Right.

That's not what he's saying at all.

But again, I think pensions are an interesting one, aren't they?

Because on one hand it's financial stewardship and it makes sense.

I've got some, now I'm saving, there's examples of this, you know, like the

obvious one is the drought with Joseph.

Yeah.

Um, and God telling him, you know, you're gonna have a drought for seven

years, save up a bunch of grain.

And they did.

Um, so you, you know, you, it's a good sensible way to invest investing,

you know, and, and, and growing.

We see that with the parable of the talent.

So things like that make a lot of sense.

The pensions make sense.

It ultimately comes down to where's your trust.

Yeah,

right.

Um, and.

I think for me, I'm at that phase of life where I've not really thought

about pensions until probably about two or three years ago, and

I went, Hmm, I'm coming to 50.

I should probably think of better pensions.

Oh, it comes

up quick than it.

Yeah.

And because I, like Dan and I both have run our own companies.

I think when you are, when you are in that sort of self-employed

status, the, the pension is the last thing on your mind, isn't it?

Yeah.

Um, cash flow's the main thing that's on your mind.

Um, and so it's been a really interesting thing, you know, that,

that, that that whole debate about Christians and pensions and, um,

and insurance as well.

Yeah, it's another thing, isn't it?

You know, you, we can assure ourselves against everything.

And again, that's not, you know, that's not a bad thing, but it,

it perhaps a lot of these things are, it, it's personal to you.

It's.

If you, if you get insurance and you're not talking to God about it, yeah.

That's not great.

Yeah.

If you get insurance and you're talking to God about it, that's good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a lot, there's no hard and fast rules, is there a lot of these things?

Um, so Sharon, uh, has said here, I think God wants us to enjoy

life and the things we have.

As well as being generous to others.

Mm-hmm.

That's the tension, isn't it?

That, um, talks about, so aid what's your principles, I guess?

How do you do that?

Right?

How do you enjoy life and the things that you have as, as well

as being generous to others.

We're gonna talk about generosity in two weeks time.

We're gonna get into that into much more detail.

So yeah, aid.

So with with, with a lot of this, there's um, obviously we've talked about various

verses in the Bible that gave us guidance.

God gave us brains and he intended us to use them.

And I think at times we can almost over labor some of these points.

Oh, I have this money and I want to go on holiday.

I haven't been for a couple of years, but really should I do it?

Mm-hmm.

And if, if you look at the, how money's talked about in the Old

Testament versus the New Testament, the Old Testament is very, um.

Uh, what's the word for, it's almost very legal.

It's like, you know, they, they had their 23% in total.

If we look at the three different, uh, types of giving we did in the Old

Testament and the New Testament, it's really about being a cheerful giver.

And it, it goes from the law and from the mechanics of it to the heart.

And so I think with all of this, it.

You know, first of all, are we using the brain God gave us

and not overly analyzing this?

And second of all, where is our heart in all of this?

Mm.

You know, it's okay to have a pension because you know that's the norm.

It's okay to, um, you know.

Own the home you live in, if, uh, you know, 'cause we're still at that

point where if you can afford to, it probably makes more sense than renting.

Yeah.

And so with a lot of this, it's just using the gray matter God gave us, weighing

the options, but then also looking where, where's the heart in this as well.

Yeah.

Very good.

I think, um, when Pete said right at the end about, he talked about this

very Christian thing, tithing, isn't it?

This Yeah.

10%. And it's, and a lot of the Christian churches have this, you

know, you give 10% of, of what you have, but they forget that the 90%.

Still God.

Yeah.

And,

and that's don't be

stealing my preach then.

That's, I'm just saying.

Uh, no, you're right.

And one of the questions here that we have, uh, which I'm gonna put to,

um, uh, aid, I'll go to you first.

Uh, can you give me, uh, an exam, a personal example of faith and money?

What has God said to you?

Was there a particular situation relating to money that God spoke into?

Uh, is the question that's come in.

So aid, uh, how would you answer that?

Are you like, go to dam first?

I think, um, probably the nearest of that would've been when I

first married Sonya and I moved from North Wales to, um, Harre.

In the Midlands.

Um, at the time, I'd, you know, I'd just finished a master's degree.

I was trying to get my own business up and running in North Wales, and I moved

in land and for, for a season it was hard.

My ideas for a business didn't work there.

I couldn't find work as an engineer and.

Being, you know, kind of just coming in and being the new kind of, uh, man

of the house and all that and not being able to bring in a steady income was

something that really, really got to me.

And, uh, it was something we really had to trust in God and just pray

that, um, the right doors would open.

Essentially they did.

Yeah.

Um, and, and through that period I can look back and I can see how I.

Grew with my faith, how it afforded me the opportunity to be a, a more

present stepfather for the 5-year-old.

I just happened to become dad overnight too and be able to do, you know,

more, you know, more of a school runs and have more to do in her life.

And I think looking back whilst I would've liked to have been earning, then I can see

how my relationship with my stepdaughter who, uh, completely voluntarily calls

me dad, has been for a long time.

How that was more important and you know, almost like God's grace

than at the time when I would've rather, you know, been employed.

And I think very often the things that we pray for deliverance from can be some

of the greatest areas of God's grace and examples of his grace in our lives.

Yeah, love that.

Love that.

Uh, Dan, same question to you, bud.

Do you need me to repeat the question?

Uh, no.

No, it's fine.

I think for me it was, it was with work as well.

Mm-hmm.

So I used to work for BT in the uk It's massive.

Massive company.

Yeah.

Huge.

Yeah.

Um, and I'd just, just got married and it was take, it was starting to, we'd

finished a big project, it was gonna start taking me around the country and.

I didn't want to do that anymore.

So it was a big step.

What am I gonna do here?

Yeah.

And I decided to, to leave.

I didn't really know what I was gonna go to and I didn't have a,

I didn't have a big word down.

It's fine.

No,

but I did know that I had to put my trust in.

Yeah.

God.

And people did say to me, that's a risky thing.

Yeah.

I didn't feel that risk that that's not picking up.

Spirituality that was just, yeah, God.

And it's been, it's been up and down.

But I, I did leave BT and, and, um, me and Lisa before we had kids, we

went for a trip round the world.

You did.

And that was because we were able to do it.

BT gave me some money.

So that sort of, that.

Looking back at, back at it now, and I often do, I think, oh, but I

could have used some amount of money for more deposit on a mortgage.

I could have done this, but God really, I dunno.

I look at that as that, as a blessing.

It was, it was a great time, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

And I could,

it's interesting, isn't it?

Because you can earn less money.

But God's blessed you.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I I think we are quite often blessing with more a bigger house, a bigger

salary, a better car, you know?

Yeah.

But it's not been that.

No,

no, it hasn't.

But I, it's, but it's, it's, it's still God's blessing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just, you know, we, we, we perceive it to be a linear thing.

We've got to constantly evolve and move forward, but God's like a chess board.

I'm just gonna leave you back here.

Uh, 'cause you're, you're gonna be better off back there for a little while.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks for that.

And, and I think it's.

It's one of those, isn't it?

I, how would I answer the question?

So many stories.

Um, I think, you know, obviously I run my own company, um, and there's so many

stories in the early days, but what's interesting now is at the start, I just

had to pray in enough money for me.

Yeah.

And, and our very young family now.

Well, there's payroll, there's, there's a. There's a lot of

money has to come in every month.

Right.

And, but the principles are still the same.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, exactly the same.

And I, I always tell the story of, I'm, I'm, I may have told this before

on Crowd, but there's a story that I'd love to share about a Walkman

if you know what a Walkman is.

Do you know what a Walkman is though?

I. The music thing.

Yeah, it's the music thing.

Um, that's the younger generation.

Back before CDs, we had tapes and so a wartman played tapes.

Did you have a

wartman?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I had a Walkman.

I had a Sony Walkman.

I love that thing.

And I'd just become a Christian.

I was listening to teaching tapes all the time, and I remember them talking about

money and faith and just praying and trusting God, and I'm like, God, awesome.

I put the Walkman on.

I wanted to listen to a tape.

I was walking into university.

Um.

My plan was to do that in the morning and I was, I was kind of praying that

evening and the batteries had run out.

They'd gone flat in my warman two AA batteries and I'm like,

God, I need some batteries.

Um, I could get some on the way, but I just heard this sermon and I

was like, God, I'm just gonna pray.

Could I have some batteries?

Please dunno.

I don't quite know what you're gonna do, but I'm just let, just have some faith

and believe you for these batteries.

It all sounds a bit odd, but the next morning I got up.

I put the Walkman on my belt 'cause they had belt clips and I

put my headphones around my neck.

Um, because obviously it wasn't working.

The batteries were flat.

In fact, I've taken the flat batteries out and thrown 'em in the bin.

Um.

And you know what?

I walked out of my house and my house at the time, the student house was

one of these sort of terrorist houses in Liverpool where it has this, you

know, there has a small wall between the house and the, the pavement or

the sidewalk for American cousins.

Um, so there's a small wall.

It's like, you know, a, a couple of feet off the floor

on that wall outside my house.

Because I remember when I was praying, I said, Lord, I want some batteries and

I don't want just rubbish batteries.

I want Duracell ones.

'cause they were the best ones at the time.

I remember saying the brand, this is what I want.

It sounds really odd, I get it.

Um, and I walked out of the house and on that wall was a packet of four Duracell

batteries, but two had been removed.

And I, I only needed two.

I'd only prayed for two, but there was a pack of four with two removed on the wall.

And I'm like, thank you, Jesus.

I put those batteries in my Walkman.

They were the longest lasting batteries I'd ever.

I think they, that Walkman actually got stolen eventually.

I think the proper batteries are probably still in there.

Yeah,

yeah.

Still were.

He's like, where's this guy gonna run out?

Um.

I am aware of time.

One thing I just wanted to say is sometimes, sometimes you look, I

I've done it before, you can look at people that are self-employed and

well, that's easier for you to trust God because you've, you've got to,

mm-hmm.

The money's not coming from anywhere.

But when I, when I worked for bt, I had just listened to different

talks and judge, um, someone said.

If you just believe that that money, you know, for that big multinational

company, if that's God's money to you as well, it makes a big difference.

Oh it

does.

Totally.

Yeah.

Not, don't just, just 'cause it's coming in a salary every month doesn't

make it any less of a provision.

No, and I think the challenge actually is.

You cannot see as a Christian, your employer, as your provider.

Yeah,

I did when I had a job and God rebuked me over the whole thing.

'cause God is your provider, not your employer.

'cause as soon as your employer becomes your provider, you're limited to what

they're gonna give you, what salary raise and all that sort of stuff.

But when God's, your provider man, the gloves are off perfect

wage.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um.

Uh, just looking through the comments.

Jan aging, it hit the nail on the head.

Uh, ro friends in church.

Uh, don't have too much money.

They give 10% of their time working in the community.

That's an interesting point.

Now, just a point Yeah.

As to get back onto this, we will be talking about

generosity in two weeks time.

Next week, Mike Harris is gonna be with us talking about the theology of work.

After that, we're gonna be talking about generosity.

What is this grace of giving.

Um, but yeah, we are gonna go to live lounge.

I'll be in there.

Um, a will be in there.

Uh, come and say hi.

How's it come join us.

Um, baby, you're gonna put the link in the comments again.

Uh, so we'll put the comment, uh, the link in the comments, do come join us.

It's just like a zoom call.

It's really, really straightforward.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on tonight.

Um, but yeah, in closing aid, anything else from you buddy?

We've talked a lot about money, but really it's, it's stuff, you know, it's, um,

any, it's assets in general, things that, things that we idolize, you know, really.

So, you know, we, we've talked about money being the root of all

evil, but maybe, you know, you're okay with money, but you know what?

I really like collecting fast, expensive cars, and that's what I

live for, you know, at that point.

That's where okay.

Money per se isn't the focus here.

It's that expensive car or hobby or whatever, and it, it's all about

idolizing at the end of the day.

Mm. To our actions say that we idolize money or the opposite,

that money works for us.

Very good.

That's a powerful thought.

Dan, anything else from you?

I think, no.

I think, um, I just summed it up.

Yeah.

Summed

up beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Be a steward, not an owner.

Mm-hmm.

I, I think that's the, yeah, the great thing.

Yeah.

So we will, uh, see you in Live Lounge, but from AID and from Dan

and from myself, uh, if we don't see you in there, have a fantastic week.

Wherever you're in the world.

If you're listening to this on Catchup or on the podcast, why not come join

us in the livestream on Sundays.

We live stream at seven o'clock in the uk.

7:00 PM UK time.

Which at current I think is 2:00 PM Eastern Seaboard time.

Uh, everyone knows Don't look at me.

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh, I think that's what it is.

Uh, but we live stream on YouTube every week.

Um, so do come and join us in that.

Very soon we are gonna be in a new studio.

When we get in the new studio, we're gonna expand out.

Live lounge to start before the service.

And so you'll be able to join Live Lounge and watch the service with other

people and connect with other Christians from around the world in Live Lounge.

We're excited by this.

Yes.

We just need to get the tech workers.

Yes.

Dunno how it's gonna work, but we know it can work.

Uh, 'cause you know, God's bigger than the tech,

so, uh, anyway.

That's coming up very, very soon.

Do come join us next week, but like I say, come join us in

Liveline that live lounge now.

Be genuinely great to see you in there, but from the team here,

thank you so much for joining us.

Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world.

We'll see you next time.

Bye for now.