Your Money Has a Grip on You

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As you might have realized, everyone, good evening and we are

in a brand new studio tonight.

As you can see, this is our whole new Crowd set up.

So yeah, we're still getting used to it.

So you might have to just like bear with us a little bit.

Like if I'm Matt's going, guys, you're on camera, like, oh yeah, right.

That's why.

Okay.

So just bear with us a bit tonight, but it is a very nice new environment

we're in, so we hope you like it.

We're excited.

I'm joined tonight by Dave.

Hi Dave.

Say hi.

Great to see you all.

Um, tonight is also International Women's Day.

Well, it's been international Women's day all day, so I just wanted to

give a shout out to all the women out there that are listening as well.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Um, because yeah, great species,

they're supposed to laugh at that mark isn't what wants

say they're great species that

I surrounded by two men here.

I just, I'm just gonna, I was gonna say something more, but

I'm just gonna move it along.

Um, yeah.

So,

sorry, I just wasn't expecting you to say great species.

That's my, that's just.

Great gender, the, the greater species.

Well of course it was a really good quote

to say that.

Yeah.

Well thanks anyway, that, that whole six minute is now ruined.

So we'll just move on.

Um, so yeah, tonight, welcome to Crowd and we're, um, just carrying on our series.

So Matt's here tonight to chat to us a little bit about the

theme of giving and grace, which I'm really looking forward to.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I think without further ado, as he stolen my thunder, I'm just gonna

move over to that and then we'll come back in a bit and, um, do some questions.

So myself and Dave will be picking up questions, so if you've got any Matt's

talking, please do send them through.

Um, post them on the feed and we'll endeavor to pick them up.

Fantastic.

So let's get into it.

We're talking about generosity tonight.

It's really cool to be in this little new, well, I say little, it's not exactly tiny.

Uh, the studio You Creek, did you drop your phone?

Okay.

Uh, so it's great to be with you.

So grab your Bibles.

Now, I remember, um, sitting in a church and the offering plate came

round and I had no money at the time.

Uh, zip nada, no money whatsoever, but I really felt like I wanted to give.

So what I did was I took off my watch, which I absolutely loved.

By the way, this one's okay.

I mean, it's not brilliant, but it's okay.

But I, off, I added it to the, uh, offering plate.

I didn't have to, I just for whatever reason really wanted to.

And I have these sort of times where I'm in this zone of freedom to give, and I do

it, you know, sort of gladly and joyfully.

But then there are times, uh, where I'm not so joyful about giving.

And I think most of us know that feeling and that tension, right?

And it doesn't have to be, uh, in anything big or dramatic either.

For instance, uh, my default at the self-service checkouts.

You know, when they ask you to give a few extra pennies, um, uh, and to give

it for charity, it's just to go no.

Uh, and I tell myself, you know, things like I already give, but then there is

this niggle in my mind and sometimes it's guilt and sometimes it's conviction.

So what is it then about generosity that does this to us and why does

talking about it cause us to tense up, you know, and to address the,

uh, elephant in the room early.

There are some genuine concerns that the church is just after your money, and I

get it, but why single out the church?

Everyone, every institution, the corner shop, the government, they all want

your money in some shape or form.

And of course, the Bible has a lot to say about money.

And Pete Farrington did a great job, uh, a couple weeks ago unpacking this

idea that money is not a neutral tool.

And how, uh, we should see ourselves as stewards rather than owners of

everything that we hold, right?

So despite the tension, uh, and you know, the church is just talking about

money again, if I'm honest with you.

Uh, how long have we been doing Crowd now?

I don't know, six years.

This is the first time in six years we've, we've really done a

few talks on money, so we're okay.

Um, so let's have an honest conversation about giving because honestly, there

is a freedom and a joy and generosity.

That is pretty life transforming.

So to unpack it, uh, we will look at why giving can feel like losing.

We're gonna ask, is generosity actually just about money?

And finally, I wanna look at the, this sort of freedom that I found in

church that day where I give my watch, um, and see how we can become people

who give with joy and not guilt.

So let's start, start, uh, by unpacking this idea and asking the question.

W. Why can giving feel like we're losing?

And if I'm honest with you, I think the answer lies in the idea

that money feels very finite.

You know, like it's a scarce resource that we seem to have less and less

of it at the moment, don't we?

Uh, and once it's gone, once it's spent, it's gone.

So giving it away can feel a little bit bizarre.

And charities in the UK especially have spotted this downward trends.

There are roughly 4 million fewer donors now than 10 years ago, which is a huge

section of the population in the UK.

And it's not surprising because we've become.

Uh, that we'd become less generous because 80% of us now cite finances as one of

the key sources of anxiety in life.

That's a lot of people.

Of course, the irony here is not lost on us, is it?

Because often to cope with this anxiety, uh, of finance, we do

something called self-directed spending.

So we say things like, oh, I can't afford the house, but

what I can do is buy this latte.

Um, and most, so, most of us have no problem treating ourselves every week.

And another thing, uh, for me when I is this, uh, I dunno if you guys

have had, it's the, uh, when I have more, I'll give more thinking.

Right.

Um, it's called the security stockpile, proper posh name for it.

Um, and it's the idea that I'll give, uh, when I get a pay rise or.

For a lot of Christians I'll give when I win the lottery, which I think is a good

one because people, a lot of Christians use that as an excuse to play the

lottery, praying, God help me to win it.

And I'll give the majority of the winnings to charity.

I find that incredible by the way.

Uh, and I, I certainly am not promoting that, but it is incredible

how we think like that, right?

So we have these different, um, these different ideas, these different things

to think about when it comes to money.

And I just wanna pause there.

Just wanna stop.

Have you guys ever had that?

Uh, when I, uh, earn more, I'll give more thinking.

Or have you just been like straight down the line?

Give all the time.

Never thought.

Never ever thought that.

Really?

Never.

How come?

I think it should always cost you to give.

Yeah.

I think it should always cost you to give and God asks you.

To give outta what you have, where you are.

Mm.

So it's never been a, a, a difficult thing in my thinking.

I, I think I have had that mentality at points, like, particularly when I

was younger, like when I was a student.

Um, like, and I didn't necessarily have a regular income and any income

I was living on was borrowed money.

It was on my student loan or whatever, or you know, money from parents.

So I didn't really have, I wasn't earning anything as such.

I didn't feel necessarily that I needed to tithe like, out of my income because

I didn't really have any income.

But, you know, arguably looking at now anything, you have

to explain what tithe means now,

like giving 10% of your income, your salaried income, um, back

to God, like through the church, uh, into ministry and stuff.

Um, but I think the principle of giving, um, yeah, I look back at

it now and think, well, I kind of used my student loan like it was.

My own money.

Yeah.

So maybe I should have done that.

Um, yeah, so I, but I think, yeah, so I think at the time it felt like it was

justifiable, but I think it sometimes as you grow as a Christian, it's like, it's

not what I can get away with in rules.

Like I could get away with not paying.

It's technically I'm not earning it.

Yeah, yeah.

But actually now I look at it much more as like, what can I give and how can I tithe?

But also just give above and beyond that and be generous.

Yeah.

That's it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd agree.

I think that, um, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

And financial security is one of those things that, um, they say that

financial security is a horizon, so we never actually reach it.

And so this thinking about generosity and giving is a really interesting one.

And there's this great analogy, you know, when being tight with money,

um, the good old Yorkshiremen, you know, being our fist stay closed and

there's a bit of Victorian folklore that tells us how we can catch monkeys.

And we catch them with a hollowed out coconut.

And you chain the coconut to a tree and you make sure that in that coconut

there is a hole just big enough for the monkey's hand to slip in.

But it's too small, uh, for it to come out.

When it grabs the peanuts inside the coconut, it puts its hand in, grabs a

peanuts, and he can't get its hand out.

So the monkey, uh, it becomes trapped by its, um, by these peanuts, right?

And so once it's reached and grabbed them, grabbed as much of its can.

It's fist is too big to take out and it's trapped.

But of course, the monkey is not trapped by the coconut, is it?

It's trapped by its own refusal to let go of what it's holding.

See, a closed fist, uh, traps us in many ways, but it's the very act

of letting go that sets us free.

And the monkey should learn this.

So.

Let's go a little bit deeper, is generosity just about money.

Now in the Bible, uh, we have a few letters.

Um, Paul wrote to a church in a place called Corinth.

And Corinth was a trade city.

It's a lot like Liverpool or Chicago, not really the capital, but doing

all right for itself and, you know, prospering and, and having a lot of trade.

And Paul is organizing a financial gift from the non-Jewish churches in Corinth.

Uh, and he's raising money for the Jewish church in Jerusalem who were facing

some serious hardship, uh, at the time.

Now, the Jewish believers in Jerusalem had sent out the good news and Paul

wanted the non-Jewish believers then to respond by sharing their

resources back, which was money.

And in Paul's mind, this gift back is a living picture of what he called grace.

And it's a word that we see a lot in the Bible.

And it's a word that Paul uses a lot when talking about giving.

So grace is simply when someone gives you something you didn't

earn and you can't repay.

Grace is when someone gives you something that you didn't earn and you can't repay.

So when we experienced God's grace, uh, we experienced God's grace, right?

Mm-hmm.

Through the work of Christ.

He gives us abundant life and it wasn't something that we earned.

And we can never, ever, uh, repay that gift.

But on a micro level, then grace might be a complete stranger, uh, walking

into the restaurant where you are eating and they pay your bill for

no apparent reason and then get off so you can't pay them back, right?

And so.

This is a beautiful, uh, picture of grace.

So Paul shows us this really beautiful cycle of how generosity is about grace

and how grace is about generosity.

And it's this cycle that goes around.

And, you know, over the years I have done and.

Maybe you've not done them, but I've definitely done every, uh, wrong kind of

giving because grace was absent, right?

There was a season where I basically tipped God, there you go.

Um, then I went through a phase of every gift felt like a deal, you

know, I gave, so where's my blessing?

Uh, and honestly, there was also a stretch when my church giving was basically a

membership fee and I would only keep giving it if the church church sort of met

my needs because none of this is what Paul is describing when he talks about Grace.

Um, instead what he actually does, he gives an example of the Macedonian

Church now, the Macedonian Church.

Was, uh, a very different town to Corinth.

Um, and it was full of people in extreme poverty.

Uh, in second Corinthians chapter eight, Paul says, we want you to know brothers

about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia.

So there's that word, grace again, this abundant, uh, favor that's been given

to the churches in Macedonia for, in a severe test of affliction, their abundance

of joy and their extreme poverty.

I mean, that's a juxtaposition right there.

Abundance of joy.

But extreme poverty, um, has overflowed in a wealth of generosity.

On their part.

It's a really astounding scripture.

So imagine being a Macedonian believer, right?

Having to choose between this idea of feeding your children and sending

money to strangers in Jerusalem and choosing to send the money

to the strangers in Jerusalem.

Not because you are reckless, but because you have experienced God's grace.

And grace changes how you count.

Grace opens a fist because a closed fist cannot receive, right?

One of the most beautiful stories in the Bible, uh, about giving.

Is where Jesus, um, is sat in front of the offering box in the synagogue.

Now this box that Jesus sat in front of at the synagogue was

shaped a little bit like a trumpet.

So there was a box, and then out of the top came this sort of trumpet

and it was long, um, and narrow.

Uh, and it, but it opened at the top and sort of narrowed down so you couldn't get

your hand in to steal the offering, right?

But this was made out of metal.

Okay?

So what was interesting here.

Is when you put the coins in, they made this huge noise, right?

Like, um, you know the change machines you get in the arcade?

Yeah.

Uh, and so the more you gave, the more noise it made.

So the wealthy givers made a lot of noise and they looked really generous.

And so in Luke chapter 21, uh, it says that when Jesus was in the temple,

Luke 21 · chapter mention

he watched these rich people dropping their gifts in the collection box

and he would've heard it as well.

And then along comes a poor widow who dropped in two

small coins and Jesus watches.

But like I say, he can also hear, I think he would've hardly heard

anything from what the widow put in.

The rich made a lot of noise and the world knew what they gave.

But the poor widow.

Not a whole lot of noise.

Um, and Jesus makes this really incredible statement.

He says, right, I tell you the truth.

When Jesus ever starts a sentence with, I tell you the truth, I'm always paying

attention because he is the truth, right?

I mean, why would you start?

I'm telling you the truth.

So he wants you to get this point right?

And he says, this poor widow has given more than all the rest of them for,

they have given a tiny part of their surplus, but she poor as she is, has

given everything she has, and that is.

Beautiful in so many ways.

And I have to be honest with you, I don't think Jesus whispers this.

Uh, I think everybody would've heard Jesus say this because I think

for Jesus giving has never been about the total amount, the sum.

I think in God's kingdom, the beautiful thing is two small

coins can mean more than millions.

And I know that sounds like the maths doesn't really add up, but

I think Jesus measures something differently from quantity.

And that's powerful and liberating, but it's also deeply challenging, right?

So heaven's accounting doesn't measure amount.

I think it measures sacrifice, right?

And Paul put it this way, in his letter, uh, carrying on, he's carrying on.

In second Corinthians a few verses down, he says, each one of us must give.

As we have decided in our hearts, not reluctantly.

That's always a challenge, right?

Uh, or under compulsion for God loves a cheerful giver.

And so I wonder if that widow was cheerful when she gave, I kind

of think she was, in many ways.

Maybe she gave because she had guilt.

Uh, maybe it was out of a sense of guilt.

Maybe she felt like she had to, but I, I dunno, it doesn't feel right to me.

I somehow doubt it.

I kind of think the lady had caught something about God, just like the

church in Macedonia had caught something about giving these small amounts.

And Jesus noticed it because it's wrapped up in grace.

So some of you may be thinking, you know, this is great, Matt, what's.

About the tithe, the thing that Anna mentioned, which

I think is a fair question.

Um, and just to echo, if you dunno what tithing is, it's where you give a portion

of your income usually to the church, and depending on what your theology is,

that will range between 10% and 23%.

Uh, and I believe that regular proportional giving is important

and is a good thing to do, but I didn't wanna spend time on that.

I wanted to get it right, uh, here because I think you've gotta get the grace thing,

you've gotta get your heart right, right?

Because you can tithe and still have a closed fist.

Uh, which is why Grace, I think, has to be the foundation of your

giving and definitely not legalism.

Now, I know that many will genuinely struggle with this, and I, I know

that quite a few of, um, people listening to this will be struggling

to pay their bills every month.

And so, hear me clearly, this is not a sermon asking you to give.

Um, like instead of paying your gas bill or whatever, God knows your situation.

But early on in my Christian walk, I had gone a bit crazy with money

thinking God would give me money if I asked, rather than waiting on God.

I got friendly with my credit card.

Oh yes, sometimes I had to use it just to buy food.

Uh, but most of the time I just used it 'cause I wanted to

thinking God will just pay it off.

'cause God meets all my needs according to his riches in glory.

The Bible tells us.

So what happened was my wrong thinking produced a wrong outcome, and I was tens

of thousands in debt before I realized.

And my wife, who is next to me here on the comments, uh, married me and my debts.

Right babe,

that's a great tack.

I don't recommend the debt in marriage.

But anyway, um, it was in that place that I knew I had to get my

handle, uh, had to get a handle on.

Finances, which for me meant understanding not just what I should

give, but why, why should I give?

Okay.

I want it to be more like the widow than the Pharisees.

Um, and it's not always easy when there are so many of the things that

we can do with our money, right?

So yes, a closed fist cannot receive, but it's also hard to keep that

hand open once you've got it open.

I dunno if you've ever played that game where you put a coin in your hand, right?

And someone has to grab it before you close it, just like that.

It can be a bit like that with God, I've found, you know?

Yeah.

God, I've got an open hand and you just close it real quick again.

Um, but then I'm reminded, uh, of what else Paul said.

Uh, in Corinthians, he says, for you know,

It's one of the most astounding verses in scripture.

You know, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet

for your sake, he became poor so that you by his poverty might become rich.

And this is the entire engine of all of this.

You don't need to give to get blessed because you are already blessed.

Uh, you have already been given everything that matters.

You were made in the image of God.

And God is a generous God.

So living generously aligns with who I think we're meant to be.

So we don't need to open our hands and then snap them shut again.

Although we probably will on time and occasion.

Um, but we can remember again two Corinthians nine verse eight, so many

great verses in two cor nine, eight.

God is able.

To make all grace abound towards you.

There's that word again.

God is able to make this grace abound towards you so that you, having all

sufficiency in all things at all times may abound in every good work.

That sounds like God wants to get some stuff to us to give

stuff for every good work.

Now, God can make this grace abound towards you.

I love that phrase.

Um, I think that's how much he wants us to be, people who are generous.

And that's why I put my watch in the offering that day.

Not because I had to, but because I wanted to.

And that point, right at that point, I still remember it really clearly.

I was a cheerful giver.

And you know what?

It was really, really freeing.

So maybe like me, I dunno, you need to know that it's okay to open your hand

and if you really want to challenge this week, maybe give something that costs.

But do it because of grace, not because of guilt.

Give something that makes your hand open even slightly and notice what happens,

not just to your bank balance, but to you.

If you do the research, you'll find actually there are some

really good mental health benefits to being a generous person.

Absolutely.

Um, but that's an aside.

Uh, but give something, right, give something that costs you.

And if it can't be money, find something else.

But if it can be money, give that everything God has for you.

Every grace, every joy, every bit of freedom, uh, is awesome.

And Grace frees you from money's grip and it flows through an open hand.

Okay.

Because a clenched fist cannot hold what God is offering.

Mm.

It's this really interesting paradox.

So imagine giving and feeling joy instead of loss.

Imagine being the kind of person who holds everything loosely.

I do not because I don't care, not because I'm reckless, but because I've received

something that's made me rich already.

I don't, I'm not talking about my bank balance.

I'm just rich in grace and I think that's available not through will, uh,

willpower, but just understanding what you have been given through Christ.

Lord, I just pray that you help us all open our hands more to you this week.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Wonderful.

Thanks Matt.

That was great.

Lots of content in there that I'm sure we're keen to discuss.

Um.

Yeah.

Dave, any thoughts from

you?

It's one of my favorite topics.

Um, not because it's about money, I think because it's about, um,

generosity and for me it's about the condition of our hearts, you know?

Um, whether we have much or whether we have little, it's what it's our, our

heart, um, and what we do with that.

And we want, you know, for me, I believe the Bible talks about

that we're generous and we're only stewards, I think Matt mentioned.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or whatever we have, we're only stewards of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wondered if anyone had got any practical examples of like when you've given,

um, kind of the impact that had on you, because when at the end there, Matt, when

you were talking about kind of giving.

How giving like when you've got closed hand giving like opens your

hand and it sort of, it almost does more to us and our hearts doesn't it?

Yeah.

Than it actually does to our finances.

Yeah.

Like I had, uh, one example when I was in, um, our church sort of did a gap year.

I used to do a gap year and so that, that was a year where I kind

of gave nine months up to kind of work for the church and I wasn't

earning any income at the time.

Um, and so I was kind of what Christians call living by Faith, which basically

means like earning a bit of money before and after and kind of praying

lots and hoping for the best really.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Doing bits of work here and there in between.

Um, but yeah, during that season, like obviously money was particularly

tight in that season 'cause it wasn't working and I think it's really hard

sometimes to learn about generosity when, when you are really skin.

Yeah.

Like it's a lot harder.

I find it easy to give now relatively easily because.

And No.

Quite enough.

'cause you had enough, I've got enough to give.

Yeah.

But in that seasonal life, I really didn't have anything to give.

Mm-hmm.

So, but I remember like, like the fear of not having enough had quite a hold on me.

And I went to church one day and somebody prayed with me and they said, and that

it wasn't about money, but they said, I just feel like you need to give.

Yeah.

Like, and it wasn't even a, do you think it was even praying about money?

It was something else.

But she said, I just feel like you should go and test this, but feel like

God wants you to give some money away.

Yeah.

And I was like, I've got like 160 quid in my bank account, that's it.

To like live on, to pay my rent, to pay my feed bills, whatever.

This was 20 years ago.

So it would've gone a bit further than it does now, but

still not a lot of money really.

And, um, and I just, I sat with it and I thought, now fair, fair

Money's got a real grip on me.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm just gonna have a go, like, I know I'm not good in this area of my life.

And so I gave like something, like a whole chunk of it, like a hundred quid of that.

Away to another person that I knew needed some money, um, who

happens to be on my team as well.

I did it, you know, kind of anonymously.

Didn't know it was from me, I just left them the cash and I just

thought, if nothing else break the fear of money on my life.

And I prayed about it and I did it.

God sort of dropped to somebody in my mind to give it to.

So I did that and the next day I got up and there was like.

Basically like money through my door.

Wow.

And it was the exact amount I'd given away.

Wow.

And I just thought, in a way, I was like, well, what was the point of that?

God, I just like that money's just gone in circles.

But I felt like it really, it did do something.

It wasn't about the money, it wasn't about having more or less, it was

about breaking that hold of fear.

Money on my life.

Absolutely.

That's powerful.

I was just like, well, you can't out- give God whatever you give, he'll give.

He can give back to you.

But mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Just that it wasn't about the money, it was about changing my heart.

Yeah.

And that fear and the grip that money can have when you hold onto it tight.

So I, I really resonated with that.

It just reminded me.

But yeah.

Has anyone else got any good examples of,

I mean, I thought, I, I think that's a great story.

And it, it's actually tied in what you were saying before.

Um, you know about not, you know, like not tithing and not giving whatever, but you,

you, you did what you did outta obedience.

Mm-hmm.

And whenever we.

Do anything outta obedience.

Again, that word cost comes in.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, as a student, um, you know, I think sometimes we think

it's always about money and quite often obviously money's involved.

But, and, and when you are on the year team, you gave what you had.

What, what do we have?

We have our time.

Mm-hmm.

Once you spend that, you don't get that back.

Yeah.

Mm.

That's the most valuable thing we have when we give that.

Yeah.

You served, you know, um, there's so many, you know, you engage with

different things that were going on and all those things cost us.

So whilst money, we quite often make to be the main thing.

It's all those other things, but it's the obedience.

So I think that's, I think it's great task as we like to say, you know, is that when

we step out in obedience, and I'm sure you would've been, I'm sure you were blessed

that, you know, some money came in.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm sure that you would've still been blessed if it hadn't, because.

But you're never left. No.

With a void when we're obedient.

No.

There's just something so amazing about that.

And actually the blessing isn't in that situation.

It wasn't about the money or the amount, although it kind of

taught me that God had it covered.

Um, but it wasn't even about that.

It was about, the blessing was in learning that money didn't

need to have a hold on me.

Yes, absolutely.

It already was blessing, wasn't it?

Yeah.

So, yeah, I, it's interesting.

Hmm.

Um, I, I really like the question that Matt raised earlier though.

Um, like is generosity just about money?

Yeah.

Um, 'cause I, I think you are right Dave, isn't it, it's about your time.

It's about hospitality, how generous you are with your things.

I think we should be generous with money because money can have a real hold on us.

Absolutely.

We can be generous there so many other ways as

well.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And this, Peter and John, isn't it, now when they go into the temple and

they see the guy who's begging, the guy who's begging, doesn't even

look at them in the best place.

Mm.

He just puts his hand out, ask him for a gift.

Mm-hmm.

But they look at him.

Mm-hmm.

They literally, they look at him, they say, silver and gold have I none.

Mm-hmm.

You know, but what I do have, I give. So in that case, you

know, for me it's about getting down and connecting with people.

There's a guy I see a lot at Tesco, um, that's my little mission field, and he,

and he, he's there begging and he's got a drug history and his name's peace and

been on a journey with him for the last few years, you know, talking with him.

And he's always amazed that I, I say coronation chicken and a latte

say now that a few years ago he couldn't have, and he goes, I, why

do you bother remembering my name?

You know?

And I'm like, well, I want to.

And I think, you know, God does, when these things don't have

control over us, God does something.

So for me, it's about time.

I keep saying to him, let me take you for a coffee.

And he's like, oh, you don't want to do that.

You know, I'm bit, I'm like.

Yeah, I do.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I haven't taken him for a coffee.

I've taken coffee and sandwiches to him.

Um, and my goal is actually to get him to come with me.

Yeah.

Because time is really important.

Yeah.

And he needs to know that he's valued as we are generous with our time.

That means going a little bit earlier somewhere, so you've

got time to do these things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alicia has put in the comments, um, the time is what I have most trouble giving

when it comes to my sense of comfort.

Yeah.

Um, because I'm an introvert and after giving a lot of myself, I feel depleted.

Yeah.

Which is not good for creative, but it's very true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and it is, it's, it's, I I I, I love this lesson.

Yeah.

You know, your time, your treasure, your talent.

Mm-hmm.

All your tongue.

Yeah.

Um.

All of these things are, are really important things to learn,

to be generous with, isn't it?

It's not just, I think a lot of Christians, what tends to happen is,

um, and Dave, maybe you've seen this more than I have, but, uh, you go to

church, you know, I, I joined when I was 18, didn't really have any money.

It was exciting, you know, and yeah, and you, you're learning this whole

thing about living by faith and God's doing some really great stuff.

Then you get a job, um, and you start, you go through this shift of seeing your

employer as your provider rather than God.

Right.

I mean, I felt really challenged, but I think I mentioned it a couple weeks ago.

Um, but you, you tithe, you give, you give your 10% and occasionally

you'll give to the, you know, a special offering or a missionary

or something that comes through.

Um, but it's, it's like we've lost that element of faith.

Do you know what I mean?

Because we've got comfortable a little bit with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and so then I.

We can look at other areas like hospitality, like time, like

generosity in, in those areas.

But it's, I think it's easy to become comfortable and we, we

operate within our, our boundaries.

What always, always, one of the things that came out when I was doing uh,

research on the talk was that, um, the poorest continent on the world, uh,

Africa gives proportionately over pretty much double what we give in Europe.

Yeah.

Right.

So as a percentage of its income, Africa is twice as generous as

Europe where we're, you know, super wealthy and got everything.

And there's something about a lot of people's stories about giving

and God doing something is when they didn't have something to give.

Do you see what I mean?

Totally.

Yeah.

Um, and you don't, I think it's a shame in many ways.

We don't hear many stories of people who are comfortable.

Um, in life.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Because, I don't know, I just wonder if we've lost the, the faith is the

wrong word, but maybe the belief that, um, or the, the willing to

risk or the wanting the adventure.

Mm-hmm.

Do you see what I mean?

Well, we live in a world, don't we?

We are all individuals and we all like our own space.

And I, I don't want, I don't want to invade your space and, you

know, I don't, I don't wanna put you under pressure, you know?

I'm sure you know, and, and.

So we almost get to a place where we don't need each other.

Mm-hmm.

And we're certainly not gonna say, can I give you this?

Can or can I do that?

Um, because it's like we're intruding.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's what we need.

We need to lose some of that, where we actually dare to say, look, can I

just do, I don't want anything off you.

Mm.

You know, because when you do give things to people, um, it's, it's

almost, well, what you want from me?

Absolutely nothing.

Just when I say You're precious, I love you.

At this stage, you're precious to God.

Here you go.

Yeah.

And that may lead to, you know, two other things, but did you say it was Alicia?

Who, who said that first?

Alicia.

Alicia.

Alicia.

I would, I would encourage you, you know, um, it does cost us,

um, you know, um, with our time.

And do it joyfully.

And you know, you said that you feel depleted.

Maybe that's part of the cost that you pay, but you know, God always, always,

always, always honors our obedience.

Mm-hmm.

So I'd encourage you to have a go and, and let us know you get on.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good point.

I think it's a really interesting thing, isn't it?

It's like, God, where can I give, where can I be generous?

Mm-hmm.

May be money.

That may be time.

It tends to be in an area where, um, I find God challenges you in areas where you

probably don't have, like I said, as much.

Mm.

And so it's harder to give.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but yeah, I, I think that, you know, God, where can I, so where can

I give, um, that adventure that it's, I, I mentioned it, um, before, but

neuroscientists are finally caught up with God or caught up with the apostle.

When you spend money on yourself, you know, retail therapy, the happiness fades.

It doesn't last very long.

Some of you, you may know this from, you know, from your own

experiences, but it doesn't last very long and the happiness does fade.

But when you give and you are generous, that happiness remains.

Yeah.

Um, which is quite an extraordinary thing.

Isn't I'm feeling down, therefore I should go and give.

Mm.

Um, it's not, it doesn't just roll off the tongue.

Yeah.

Um, but there's just something deeply powerful about going, I

am just, I just need to do this.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's almost like a, a heart thing more than a proportionality thing, isn't it?

I like, like the, um, going back to the widow you talked about, and I

was just thinking about that example you gave of Africa as a continent.

Proportionately give more than we do in the rich West and Yeah.

You just sort of think it, it reminded me again of that story told about the

widow, Matt, that like, it's not about.

The proportionality of our giving.

It's about the heart behind our, our giving.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

God's always, always, always after our heart, isn't he?

Yeah.

He, he's after he, he doesn't need our money.

Like he doesn't need our giving.

God has all the,

absolutely,

all the resources in the world.

Right?

He like, he needs us to give forward.

It does to us, not for him.

Like, so it is about that kind of proportionality and if something's costly

for you to give, then that's probably the thing you should be giving, I guess.

Yeah.

Whether that's money, which does have a grip on a lot of us, but it may well be

something else like your time or whatever.

Well, that, that ties in beautifully with, uh, Ellis's question here.

Should we give a proportionately flat fee or should we give a higher percentage?

If we earn more?

It really doesn't matter.

I mean, I think that's a question lots of people in church, um, ask.

I've asked me over the years and I would just say.

I have never given that more than a second thought.

Purely because you give what is on your heart to give and give it joyfully.

You know, people say, do I give, you know, before tax or do I give after tax?

Tithing is a starting point.

It's, it's a principle that they use in the Old Testament.

You know, you give what God has laid on your heart and I always think a tithe's

a great place to start with generosity.

Yeah.

Never thinks about volume.

You know, he never thinks, oh, I'll give, you know, 200

pound this month or whatever.

It just gives, and you know, in church, you know, people give

regularly towards the work, towards the support of the church.

'cause obviously you have to keep the lights on, et cetera.

But it, it's beyond that.

Um, and I, I would just encourage you, don't overthink it.

Just go, just say God.

Touch my heart.

And, um, I know for, for Julie and I, um, and I remember very quickly when we first

got married, being in a meeting and a little bit like Matt, um, with the watch.

And Julie said to me, um, I was nursing and we, we did get

a whole lot of money down it.

I think Julie, uh, we just had our first baby, I think.

Um, can't remember.

And um, and I remember Julie saying, um, I think, I think we

need just to empty our bank account.

And I'm thinking, well, that's not gonna be hard.

But what I did know that we'd only been paid maybe one week before.

We were gonna have like three weeks where we had nothing.

And I'm like, well, have you really thought about this? Have you?

Have you really thought this through?

You know, God's man of faith and power?

No.

Um, but it was something that Julie really thought we should do, so we did it.

And I remember I was saying, look, we're not gonna say anything to anybody, I

think must live on the credit card again.

And, um, you know what, it was quite amazing because God was speaking

to people at the evening and we would, I remember arriving home, I

think it was Monday evening from my shift, and there was food, there was

like a bag of food on the doorstep.

And that happened numerous times during this time.

And I'm not, I can't remember us ever telling anybody about it, you know, but

when God knows about it, he makes a way.

Yeah, he does.

You know, and it, it really is about, um, just trust him.

And, you know what?

If he hadn't, I think we would've survived going while without,

it's interesting, isn't it?

Because I think I, there are stories where people, um, will

say, oh, we give away a car.

Um, and then God gave us a brand new car.

Or we give away a house and God give us a house.

So you sit there and you listen to that and go, well, I want a new house.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna give my house away and God's gonna give me a

house and you end up homeless.

Yeah.

It's a really interesting thing, isn't it?

But at the same time, I think if you sow pineapple seeds, guess what?

You grow.

Mm.

And I would venture to say if there's an area in life that you want to

grow in, that you want to develop in, that you feel like God's challenging

you in, start giving into that area.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And start sowing seeds into that area.

Yeah.

Um, if you, if you do that, you'll be amazed at what starts to happen.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Um, and just, you know, you cast your bread on many waters, don't you?

Mm-hmm.

And, and I, and I think it's really interesting when, when you do that, God

starts to prove himself in that situation.

Um.

And so,

but at the same time, you shouldn't give with, with like

that kind of intention in mind.

Like, you know, like that idea of giving so you get a new house, a bigger

house, or a better this or better that.

Like if I, if I bless someone else, God will bless me back.

So I'm gonna do it like, yeah.

To me it's a, again, what you're saying there is, it's about the heart state.

Absolutely.

Because like you, if you, you can't,

yes.

You can't do something expecting to get something back.

'cause that's the wrong motive to give with.

Mm-hmm.

So, well you can do it, but it's probably not a good idea.

It's like the heart thing, isn't it?

It is.

But if you give, God's gonna give back now.

He, he's, he's your timeframe and, and your expectations are probably gonna be

questioned.

Right?

Yeah.

And there's no formula to it.

Right.

No formula.

Like you can formula, you can't tell God

what to give you formula.

It's all about the heart.

Yeah.

Isn't it?

You know, so they can have two different people.

I, I agree with that totally, Anna, that I, I remember many years ago,

frontline, a guy coming in, he was saying, um, I, I, I prayed for a car

and God gave me this brand new car.

And then I saw this car go past and he said, you know what, I, I went and I

gave my car away and I got that car.

And I'm thinking, well, what's your idol?

Yeah.

Yes.

It may sound judgmental to you, but you know, this story just went

on and it happened with houses.

And I'm just like, you know what we.

In the real world, we need to know what it is to be at peace

with God, with much, with Yeah.

And with plenty.

Mm-hmm.

And I think, you know, um, it, it's, it is all about the heart.

God knows our heart.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we think where will be happier?

We'll be more fulfilled with a bigger car or a better house, or blah, blah, blah.

Where does that stop?

'cause we know in the real world it doesn't, does it. It just happens.

It then becomes let's exchange the wife.

Yeah.

You know, that's the sad reality of it.

Yeah.

Everything becomes temporary.

Yeah.

You know, and, and I think,

and it's a real

shame.

It does start with one.

And I think that, I generally think there is a progression, but I think

it, I think that is a good point.

If you have something on your heart, it is good to sow into that.

Yeah.

It is.

Yeah.

You

know, it is like if you're the whole thing it is, it is key.

Because Paul says, mm-hmm.

I've learned what it is to, like you said, I've learned, learned to have plenty and

I've learned what it is to be in need.

But in every situation I've learned to be content.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The word content just means independent of circumstance, which I love.

Yeah.

Right.

Paul's like, I don't care whether I'm rich or poor.

Yeah.

I've just got God's grace.

But I tell you, one of the magical, going back to you,

you know, saying breaking fear.

I think if there's a fear, you break it by, by giving.

If there's an idol, you absolutely.

You break it by.

You can't give your God away.

Yeah.

Right.

If, if, if money is your God, you can't give it away.

Yeah.

So how do you know money is not your God?

Well, you can give it away.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so if, if you are struggling, you know, and you kind of, with

housing, you're like, gotta.

I need, I need some breakthrough here.

Mm-hmm.

I would genuinely be going, right.

Where can I give not

mm-hmm.

Not give away your, you know, your deposits and all that sort of, you've

gotta do what God tells you to do.

Yeah.

Just inviting people around, just being hospitable, absolutely right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just, just bring people in.

Yeah.

And it in

that area, and it applies in every area of life, doesn't it. It always strikes me

because as much as you can give a small amount like the widow, when you only

have a small amount proportionally, and that like matters to God.

Yeah.

Equally, when you've got like.

I used to have people around when I had a flat share with other mates and

I didn't even own my own property.

Yeah.

And now I still like to have people around our dining room table.

Now I own my own family house.

But you don't start when you get the bigger house.

When you get the perfect house, just start where you are.

Even if it's just like a shed.

So, and a couple of like dial out pizzas, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you don't, yeah.

You start with where you're at.

You do.

And

use what

you've got.

And you'll notice everything that God tells us to do.

To be hospitable.

Yeah.

To pray for somebody.

Absolutely.

To, to, to listen to, to grieve with those who grieve, to rejoice with those who rejoice.

And guess what all that requires.

Yeah.

You to give.

Yeah.

Something.

The whole thing, for God so loved the world that he gave, the whole

gospel is built on God's generosity.

Right.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, you just said there and something that is a value that

we all have in common about, you know, hospitality, sharing our homes, you know.

Um, I mean that's something that o over the decades we've done freely like

Sundays, you know, Sunday lunches to think how many, hundreds and hundreds opening

up our homes for people to come and live with us, you know, share, just sharing

what we have and it's holding it lightly.

It's not that they're not precious, we hold them lightly, 'cause we all

received from those things ourselves.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, whether we have, um, just people around on a Sunday or

whether we're having people come and share, share our homes with us.

Yeah.

I can't think about how many people, I

mean I think you and Julie, but obviously you and Sharon as well, mark, like

you're both great at your people I think of who are great at having people

around, having people live with you.

Like that is the real lifestyle choice.

It's not easy for everyone to give up their own personal

family space and do that.

Amazing.

And not a natural one for, for me.

'cause I'm, I'm quite selfish, you know, and um, and we did it when we had a

small house and we got a larger house.

But I always say it's a value that we really love and every now and

then we meet people saying, oh, we really loved it when we live with you.

And I'm like, did you?

Where was I?

You know?

And uh, did your face

know?

Yeah.

You know, I remember John McOwen and

Dave was our most, the

and Tony Ri and they're saying, we live with you.

I'm like, did you about any man living in our house?

Funny.

But you, you know, it's, you hold what you have.

And, but you know what I love seeing is that that value that,

that we have lots of people.

You, you know, even though you share it, you know, you

share, you use what you have.

And I understand not everybody can have, you know, people live with them.

And, and we did it outta obedience.

I, you know, just did it outta obedience.

'cause it wasn't a natural thing initially, but we just loved and, you

know, it, it was, it's just great to do.

Yeah.

You

know, it is.

Can highly recommend.

One more question that I just had, um, was.

Because Matt, you talked a little bit in your talk about kind of when you

got into some debt on cards and, and, and went into marriage with debt.

Like what do you think about giving while and tithing, I guess, but you

know, above and beyond tithing as well, while you are in debt and you, you know,

you basically owe other people money or like you touched on it briefly mm-hmm.

But like, what, like is, you know, what would you recommend

people do in that scenario?

I think debt's a really interesting one.

Mm-hmm.

Having been in it and having done debt counseling with people over the years.

Um, I, I would say that, um,

for me, when I was in debt, and this is for me and what we did,

I doubled down on my giving.

Mm-hmm.

I made sure I paid the debt every month.

Yep.

And I doubled down on my giving.

Um, and what that, what that meant was we.

I couldn't buy the things that I wanted to buy right.

In, in essence, you, there had to be some change.

Um, but I think in that scenario, I refuse to let debt and the fear of debt rob me.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and the anxiety of it.

So I'm like, no, I'm gonna make sure that I give, even if I have to work

another job, even if I have to do this, that, and the other, or sell stuff.

Um, I, and trust me, I had plenty of nonsense that I bought on the

credit card that I could sell, but, um, but we, we also, you know, we

worked hard to get out of the debt.

Um, and, and we made some choices.

And it's not like getting outta debt is a, is a, happens in a month.

No.

It can take years.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Um, and so now, um, I'm super grateful we sit here and I don't have any

debt other than the mortgage on my house, you know, but we own the car.

We save for cars, we buy cars, cash.

We don't, um, we don't.

Lease them.

And I know people do, and I'm not, it's not a judgmental thing for me.

I wanted to get out of the debt.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I, I think it's good to get outta the debt, but you have to

make those lifestyle choices early.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Um,

I, I think as well, what awful might, you know, you've said, um,

oh, you've done some debt counseling.

Mm-hmm.

Um, we've done quite a bit of that o over the years and I've seen God just

do some amazing things because we were never able to say, here's the

money, cover your debt and pay us, but just never had it to do with that.

But walking through it with people

mm-hmm.

Um, I would have to, we would always say, you know, we'd talk about the debt,

what you want to do, and some of them say, we can pay this, blah, blah, blah.

But we, one of the key things we have to do is help people

deconstruct their idea of money.

Because there's all this input, like buy now, pay later type of thing.

Mm-hmm.

And that has devastating impact on marriages that mm-hmm.

Numbers of marriages that break down because of that is huge.

So we have to deconstruct the idea of money, how we use it, and, um,

but I think, you know, when we are helping people walk through that, I

think in that they get some healing.

They get some input about what money is

Yeah.

And how they should use it.

Mm-hmm.

It was really interesting when we were doing the debt counselling that, um, you

have to, because like you, it's like you see people and you go, well, I can't

give you the money to pay your debts.

But if I could, I probably wouldn't.

That's right.

Right?

That's right.

And, and it's a really interesting thing.

Thing that's Yeah.

Was there was this really odd phenomenon that I noticed.

They, they called it the debt consolidation loan.

I dunno if they still do, but this was the idea whereby you'd run a, you know,

four or five different credit cards.

Mm-hmm.

And let's say you owed 40 grand mm-hmm.

Across all your credit cards.

So you consolidated that debt into one payment Yeah.

Every month.

And that payment would've been lower than the debt payments on all the credit cards.

Mm-hmm.

And so you, you, you go, this makes financial sense because it's

gonna free up money every month.

We're not gonna go from hand to mouth.

And so you, you consolidate your debts and you start to pay.

Now, I dunno if you noticed this, but I noticed when people consolidated

their debts within 12 months mm-hmm.

18 months, they were not in 40,000 pounds worth of debt.

They were in 80,000 pounds worth of debt.

Mm-hmm.

Because they, they'd not dealt with the financial That's right.

Habits that got them into debt in the first place.

Now I'm not.

It's not, hear me, I'm not saying everyone in debt, it's their own stupid fault.

Mm. I'm not saying that at all, but quite often there are habits.

I definitely had them that got me into debt.

Mm-hmm.

And if you don't deal with that, the white knight in shining armour,

you know, so classic one recently.

So I had a lot of debt.

You get redundancy, you get a big redundancy payout, you pay those debts

off thinking, well, I'm debt free two months later, how's the debts?

Wow.

They're still low, aren't they?

And they, they actually, they're creeping up again.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, I think, I think debt's a really interesting one.

Um, and having to deal with those reasons you're in debt.

Important.

Um, so Alicia said, uh, well let's just look at the comments here.

Uh, lady Beby giving and blessing aren't necessarily like for, like, for example,

financial giving doesn't necessarily mean you'll be blessed financially.

Right.

God knows what we need and blesses us accordingly.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I think everyone is agreeing there.

Mm.

Uh, Alicia says, I want to reiterate that God has always been faithful in

restoring me after I've been depleted.

Yeah.

Energetically well done or financially

well done.

Yeah.

That's fantastic.

It's just, it's often just a matter of me practicing patience in the interim.

Um, I would totally agree.

I think, um, it's like you said, isn't it?

You can't out-give God.

God is no man's debtor.

Um, you know, and it's like, and it doesn't mean that if you

give money, you'll get money.

Like, um, Sonya said it's, but yeah, I think just the life of being generous

is really, really good fun, isn't it?

Yeah.

Be the first person to pay for dinner.

Mm-hmm.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And you know, do those

so freeing and it also means that like God knows your needs.

Mm-hmm.

You know, like I always think of about, um, passage of Matthew where he talks

about look at the birds and Yeah.

You know, the flowers in the field, God provides for all of

nature, doesn't he also know your needs and we need provide for you.

And I always think we make it so complicated sometimes, don't we?

But like Yeah.

It's so freeing when we live generously and God knows our

needs, so don't worry about it.

Yeah.

There's, um, I'm going to, can I tell the story about our future Inlaws?

I'm gonna tell it anyway.

It sounds like

you just started so

carry on.

I just, to my wife permission and Yeah.

I'm gonna tell her anyway.

So my eldest son in eight weeks is getting married.

Is it less than eight weeks anyways, getting married soon.

Um, and

don't worry, Sharon knows the date.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll be there.

I'll be there.

So don't panic.

Um.

And we, uh, so he's marrying Abby, who's beautiful.

Um, Abby's from Indonesia and her parents were over.

So we met her parents and we went out to eat.

Now, normally when we go out to eat, I will sneak off at some

point and pay the food bill.

Right.

It's just one of the things in my head, I'm just trying to be generous.

I just, I, I try and pay for the food.

Um, but they got there before us, didn't they?

Wow.

They were like, I went to pay the bill and they already paid it.

Wow.

What did they pay when they, we came in?

Yeah,

I Did they call you 20 minutes before we arrived and said, here's

my, how did they do that so quick?

And it got to the point where I just love being around people like that,

where you are arguing about who's gonna pay the bill so much better.

And so we're like, alright.

She.

You, I'm gonna tie you to the table.

It's my, I need to pay for this.

Right.

So it's just really, and they're like, no, no, no, we'll get it.

I'm like, I'm gonna break your legs.

Um, it's just, it's just the way it's gonna be.

So I'm not really gonna do that, just, but it's that competition to be generous.

I love being around people like that rather than the people when the check

comes at dinner and they're all like,

who paid?

Who had what?

50

50? That's annoying.

And I, I don't mind, I, I get that people want to pay that, but even if it's just a

like, oh, if I leave it long enough, maybe you'll pay, you know, that kind of thing.

So.

Yeah.

Um, anyway, uh, it's probably time for us to,

yeah, we need to wrap up.

Up.

Um, I don't actually know what's happening next week 'cause I've forgot to ask.

I'm before we went on there, I'm not, but, um, yeah.

Matt didn't tell us.

So tell us what's happening next week, Matt.

Just by anyone

he wants tonight.

Uh, we have Will.

So with.

Uh, with us next week

talking about

God's heart for the poor.

So we're carrying on, uh, well, God's heart for the rich and poor, actually.

So we're carrying on a conversation about money.

This is money part four.

So part one was Pete Farrington talking about stewardship part two.

Mike Cares last week talked about work, um, uh, and earning

money, which was brilliant.

This week I talked about grace and generosity.

Next week is Will talking about God's heart for the rich and poor.

And week five is you.

Is it?

It is.

It's all about building a legacy.

Um, so, uh, did you know that?

No.

Better start writing that page.

I'm ready though.

I'm done.

We've had this conversation now

fine tuning.

So, um, we need to see why you're not getting emails anyway.

Um.

That's what's coming up.

Mm-hmm.

Then we've got Easter, uh, we've got age sharing with us, and then

you are talking, aren't you done?

Mm-hmm.

Cool.

Resurrection.

Resurrection Sunday.

And then we're getting into, you didn't ask this and I've

just started off on one now

I know.

And after that we've got a 30 week series potentially on Jesus the Revolutionary,

which I'm really looking forward to.

Yeah, I'm make excited

about

that.

Yeah, it's gonna be great.

We're just looking at all the stories of Jesus and uh, and

how they're so countercultural.

Yeah.

Uh, both then and now, um, uh, which I'm really looking forward to.

So anyway, that's what's

happening next week.

Awesome.

Sounds good.

Fab.

Well, we look forward to having everyone back next week and just a reminder

as well that if people wanna stick around, um, then you can come and

join us in the live lounge afterwards.

So we've, um, yeah, we'll just be around a couple of us.

If you wanna chat, discuss your questions, get to know us a bit more, one-to-one.

There'll be a link somewhere in the chat.

Is that right?

Z.

There's in there apparently.

Say you're doing the comment.

Brilliant.

But

I was looking at me like, I dunno.

I dunno.

It's alright.

We're all under control.

It's the,

it's okay.

Zoe Cold Sweats.

Next week we'll have know a bit more what we're doing in this room

and format, so it'll be slicker.

Yeah.

But

yeah,

the slicker,

I'm

what Crowd's known for.

I'm not saying slick, I just say slightly slicker.

That's really what we're known for.

We are like so slick in it.

Um, but yeah, no, it'd be good to see you in Live Lounge though.

So that links in the comments.

Right.

Um, it's gonna be a bit low key this week, but we're gonna get live lounge

better as the tech, uh, gets a bit more established in our really slick studio.

Mm-hmm.

I love that.

We're gonna get slicker.

Yeah.

There should be a t-shirt slogan.

Well, we've gotta get going much more the other direction you,

anyway, there we are.

I think that's a wrap, isn't it?

It is.

Dave, thank you so much for joining us.

It's great to be with you guys a little bit.

I'll be in two weeks apparently.

Yeah, you'll be back in a couple weeks.

So we'll see.

You see, and uh, Matt, we just see you every week, so yeah,

sorry about that.

But yeah, thanks for joining us, everyone, and we'll see you soon.