When Your Wealth Defines Your Worth

Well, hello and welcome to Crowd Church.

My name is Matt.

It's great to be with you this evening, the second week from our studio,

Which I'm very excited about, and I've got a computer in front of me and everything.

So it's looking like, well, professional, beside me.

To my left, to your right, I guess on the screen, is the

Beautiful, we'll start with Will.

How are we doing?

Good evening.

Very good.

Very good.

Also very excited to, be in the studio, although, as you can

Say it, it's slightly chilly.

It is.

So I'm gonna keep my scarf on, but, no, lovely.

You got, you got a great setup here.

Well, it, it is back to the old days actually.

It is funny, isn't it?

We've sort of come full circle.

Yeah.

Getting into a much nicer studio though.

But lovely to be here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a shame that he's not working.

I was saying to, well, we've got, we've had the electrics done,

In the studio, you can't see them.

But we, when we started to build this room out a couple weeks ago,

Had a load of electrics done.

But the electrician, God bless him, there's a cable in inside

The trunk in for the heating that is not connected to anything.

So we need to get them back to come and fix it.

So hence the reason we're all wearing coats and scarves and phantom

Heating system.

Even Zoe, we sat there drinking a hot chocolate in a, in a puffer jacket.

But anyway, first of all, problems, right?

There's a little bit chilly, but very warm.

Welcome to you.

If you're joining us, do say hi in the comments.

It'd be great to see you in there.

And even if you're just writing a comment that you can

Hear me, that'd be really awesome.

Just so we know, we are actually live and working.

Oh, here we go.

The comments coming in now.

What was Milky Way?

Is that you, Millie, I'm guessing, Sonia's in the comments.

A rose is in the comments.

Good evening everybody.

It's great to be with you.

Do say hi.

Let us know, where you are watching from.

And I will try and keep, we can, they can hear us, which is good.

That's always helpful.

That's always helpful.

Good stuff.

I wish I could show you what it's like being in the studio, but

Unless you're in like a community groups, I, I sent some photos around.

It's really, it's quite tech.

Eh?

It is very techy.

Overwhelmingly so.

It's a lot of wires.

There's a lot of bits of black metal.

There is.

And, yeah, yeah.

No, it is, it's good.

You're doing a good job.

Yeah.

Well, we're getting there.

It's, it's only gonna improve.

Oh.

Yes.

Milka is actually Millie from Wednesday nights.

Hello, Millie?

Yes.

And hello Ross.

Nice to see you.

Yeah, absolutely.

Great to be with you guys.

So Will, you are chatting to us tonight, aren't you?

I am, yeah.

Yeah.

I'm,

You're gonna do the talk, which we're gonna get into in just a brief second.

But before we do, let me just tell you the rules of engagement.

If this is your first time with us, just say hi in the comments.

It'd be great to hear from you.

We have something called Conversation Street.

So Will's gonna do the talk.

And we're talking about money we're carrying on our conversation about money.

Part three, part four,

Part,

It's part something.

I think it's part four, of the Money series.

So Will's gonna be talking about that.

But we'd love to hear your questions.

So any questions that come up, just write them in the comments.

'cause after we've done the talk, he and I are gonna chat, about

His talk and we're gonna try and answer some of your questions.

At the end of that, we're gonna go into something called Live Lounge, which

Is where we will jump onto Google meets.

I'll put the link in the comments.

But we're gonna jump onto Google Meet, so come join us

In Google meets afterwards.

It's just like being on a Zoom call, really.

But great to meet you normally.

It's fair to say there would be somebody to my right.

Jan is unfortunately not able to join us tonight.

Jan. Hope you're feeling better.

But yes, so it's, it's the two of us, and I suppose it, we should probably

Start by saying, happy Mother's Day.

Yeah.

Happy Mother's Day, Matt.

Yeah.

You've, you, yeah.

You play a blinder.

I, I'm being so impressed over the years.

Well done.

Yes.

Happy Mother's Day to all the mothers.

Those who are physical mothers, spiritual mothers,

Aspiring to mothers.

Yeah.

Happy Mother's Day.

Excellent.

And yes, I appre Alicia's in the comment she's watching,

From Georgia in the States.

It has to be said.

I came a cropper, Alicia, when I lived in the States, so I'm going back.

Mm. 90.

When did I, 1991.

Right.

So I'm going back a few years when I lived in the States.

And what I didn't realize was, and this caused me a lot of grief with my

Own mum, is American Mother's Day.

Yeah.

And English Mother's Day, or in fact different dates.

Well, international.

'cause we've got a Brazilian staying with us at the moment.

And I was like, do, do you have Mother's Day?

And she said, yeah, it's in May.

He goes, yeah, like the rest of the world.

But my dad is very hot on this.

Okay.

Because it's not Mother's Day in the uk it's mothering Sunday.

Ah.

Is there a

Difference?

And it's actually part of the church calendar where

Everyone gets a day off work.

Yeah.

And they return to their mother church.

So they go back to their own, ah, village or town.

Oh, is that what it is?

And of course, they get a chance to see their family.

Right.

But it's actually kind of returning to your home church

Effectively from wherever you are.

Right.

Working around the country.

So, but the rest of the world have now just got, yeah.

Mother's Day in, in May.

So yeah.

My, my brother in Canada also get.

Quite confused to remind him.

Yes.

Good.

'cause I got into trouble with my own mom.

I'm not gonna lie, I got into a lot of trouble.

So if you're confused about us saying Happy Mother's Day, it's just

'cause we're British and we're weird.

That's just the way it is.

But anyway, we

Might have had it first though.

Yeah.

Anyway's.

Not go there.

Does it matter?

I don't know.

But anyway, happy Mother's Day, if you're a mum.

Whether, you know, to birth kids, adopted kids, whether it's spiritually,

Whether it's just to the kids down the road, happy Mother and Sunday.

You're all legends.

Moms are legends.

Fact, full stop.

So, and I'm just impressed someone from Georgia.

It's a peach state.

Did you know

Indeed?

Yeah.

There's

A lot of films filmed in Georgia.

That's the only reason I know.

'cause it always says at the bottom, it's got a little, little, little

Picture of a peach in Georgia.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep.

That's true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A says you're looking very bright and shiny.

The lighting is something else in here.

It is.

It has to be.

Maybe I should turn it down, down talking.

Turn the lighting down.

Hang on,

Because it, okay.

Yeah.

Too much shine.

Not, not good at this time on the Sunday evening.

I mean, it's, it's the glasses as well, but I, I need those.

Okay.

So I've turned it down.

Aids.

Let me know if that's any better.

Thanks to shiny

For you man.

Elise, he says, thanks for clearing that up, Matt.

Crew in the comments.

Please feel free to take the Mick out of Edmo, everyone.

Nice, nice to have you in the comments, Matt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For a while.

And he says, what did your mother think of you chopping your fingers off?

Well,

True Matt, Crew style.

Mum Wasn't that impressed Actually, no,

It was a long time ago.

This, this wasn't this week.

Yeah, it wasn't this watch.

It was a long time ago.

Anyway, let's get into it.

So, great that you're all here.

Do keep writing in the comments, do keep writing questions in there,

Like I say as we go through.

But for now, will, I'm gonna hand over to you.

I'm gonna jump on the scriptures in the comments 'cause we're a minimal

Crew tonight being mothering Sunday.

So everyone's with their mums apart from us.

So I will jump on the scriptures and over to you, my friend.

Okay, thank you very much.

So, yeah, talking tonight, the title is The Ultimate Depreciation and

The Impact That Money Can Have on Us.

And I wanna start by telling you a story of two boys.

The first was raised in a single parent family, one of six siblings abandoned

By that, by their dad, more or less.

Who, who spent much of his time on the road, he was a professional

Conman with a string of mistresses.

Life was hard.

The children helping maintain the house through endless chores,

Earning money where possible by selling potatoes or rearing turkeys.

His devout Baptist mother install instilled values of hard work, saving

And generosity into her six children.

Things weren't all bleak.

He got a place at the first free secondary school opening in

The district and studied hard.

He also got a job in a grocery business and went on to get a bookkeeping

Qualification, and at the age of 20, he had an opportunity to go into partnership

With the grocery company that he'd already been working long hours for.

The second boy was born into a wealthy family.

The only sign of a successful textiles trader.

His dad was a, what you'd call a pillar of the community, respected by the town.

And this boy's life was carefree.

His every need catered for.

He didn't really need to do much of anything at all, certainly not work.

And he lived a bit of a playboy lifestyle, surrounded by friends hanging out in the

City center, messing about playing sports.

He probably had a private tutor but didn't show much interest in industry.

But he did have heroic aspirations of making a name

For himself on the battlefield.

He was marked for greatness in the community, given his

Breeding and his parentage.

And at the age of 19, he had his chance.

In the end, whatever he did, he had the assurance of more inheritance

Than he knew what to do with.

Wealth.

Some have it, some don't.

Some earn it, some squander it.

Some never even get the chance.

What does God think of financial riches or the lack of them?

Does the Bible distinguish between rich and poor?

Are riches a sign of God's blessing and poverty, a sign of his curse?

Is there such a thing as the undeserving poor or the deserving rich?

Those who by their own actions end up in one of the two boxes.

And where would you put yourself on that spectrum?

Where are your eyes immediately drawn at that question to those

That materially have more than you?

Or to those that have less

Wealth and especially financial worth has gained, I would say, a disproportionate

Status in our modern Western society.

It touches everything.

It touches politics, education, healthcare, sport warfare, very

Topical relationships, the environment.

There's a fascination with a league table of financial worth.

It's an annual publication, even as a rich list, an obsession with

Who's dropped out of the top 10 or who's risen up the rankings.

Wealthy lifestyles are entertainment, and some magazines are entirely based on the

Premise that readers will pay to get an insight into a wealthy star's lifestyle.

Everything is costed in monetary terms, and as Oscar Wilde equipped,

People know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

And this is why we've spent the past three weeks at Crowd exploring it.

The inequality of wealth, the growth of its importance and status and its

Impact on our wholeness are worth exploring from God's perspective.

And tonight we're panning out from our individual response to briefly look from

A more society-wide perspective on the whole question of wealth and poverty.

Now, I think it's true to say that Christianity and its breadth of practice

Lays claim boast to the rich and the poor.

There's a wide range of opinion you'd come across walking into any

Particular church worldwide, probably.

So you may hear Christians espousing that material wealth is an

Unambiguous sign of God's blessing.

It can be, and its pursuit is therefore somehow godly.

It almost always isn't.

You might even hear churches or Christian leaders boasting of how much money

They have or how much their church is worth or how much they've raised.

Astonishingly one bit of research, and this was done in America, showed

80% of people believed that the phrase God helps those that help

Themselves is a verse in the Bible.

If you're interested.

This actually comes from an esop fable, ancient Greek.

But it also has echoes in the Quran and Islamic faith.

It's not in the Bible.

On the other hand, you'll come across a passionate belief that God is

Primarily on the side of the poor.

Jesus was homeless after all and apparently owned nothing.

There are plenty of proverbs and parables that seem to judge the,

The foolish rich, the hardhearted rich, even the the ruthless rich.

The prophets talk about looking after the widow and orphan, the

Poorest of the poor as true worship.

So tonight we clear it up once and for all.

God really loves the poor.

Oh, and God really loves the rich.

And God loves those who think they are poor, but are actually rich.

And God loves those who are poor, but aspire to be rich.

And God loves those that are never even bothered to classify themselves.

God loves

Leviticus 1915 says, do not show favoritism to the poor or the rich

Judge on the basis of what is right.

You see, money is just a thing.

It was never meant to define you.

It certainly is not how God classifies you in deciding how

Much attention you deserve.

God's love for you is entirely unrelated to your worldly wealth, your career,

Your status, how much you stand to inherit or to pass on, how much you owe.

Entirely unrelated.

As with so many things in scripture, it's not the thing itself that matters, it's

What you do with it and how you view it.

So forgive me if that is blatantly obvious to you, but it seemed worthwhile

Clearing up, and hopefully we can agree on that baseline that God loves

No matter what we are worth.

So as we look into this topic a little bit more from a biblical perspective.

Although wealth and poverty are not significant in God's great offer to us

Of life and grace, they are important.

And there's lots of ways to cut this.

And I really do recommend that you check out the other talks in this series on the

Crowd, website or on u, on YouTube.

But tonight, I want to look particularly from a point of

Inequality and God's justice.

To do this, it's important to remember a bit of context in the time of the Bible.

Wealth is largely associated with land In the first colonization of Palestine, after

God's people were rescued from slavery, each family was apportioned land to farm,

To build on, to maintain, to nurture.

In theory, all were equal.

They had an equal allocation.

So there weren't many ways you could get wealthy.

The first was by working hard on your land with the skills you had to increase

Your herds and your crops to a point where you went beyond self-sufficiency.

By which I mean you've fed your household, you've paid your tithe, you've completed

Your sacrifice expectations, you stored enough seed for next year's crops, and you

Still had something left over, either to exchange for other things or to sell.

A second way you could get wealthy is by renting out a part

Of your land for others to farm.

If you had more than you needed taking a rent of produce or money in

Exchange for their use of your land, the level of rent, of course, was for

You to set and clearly open to abuse.

If you chose thirdly, you could gain additional land by conquest or

Treachery, and there's a warning in the Bible not to move the boundary stones.

You could just make it up and claim some of your neighbor's land, for example.

But finally, you could take advantage of a family down on their luck.

So this might be where there are no children to work the land where a husband

Had died and you could buy their land maybe at a knockdown price, offering loans

At high rates of interest or effectively enslaving your fellow Israelites.

So you see, wealth could often be gained not by your hard work, but

Either by the fortune of the resource you had, more land than you needed,

Or the misfortune of your neighbors.

And it's this wealth that the Bible has some harsh words for.

If you exploit a situation to get all you can usually at the expense of

Another, this is not okay with God.

In fact, Proverbs 1431 says, whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt

For their maker, who is God?

If you luxuriate in your fortune, living in self-congratulation and building bigger

Bonds to store all your stuff, God calls you a fool, warning that you, your wealth

Could be snatched from you at any moment.

So that's all very well.

But before we excuse ourselves from the equation as not being landowners,

As not being oppressive, being those that work hard for the money we have

That earn every comfort we enjoy.

Think a little deeper.

Oppressing the pore has many faces.

Who makes your cheap clothes?

Who grows your cheap chocolate?

Who mines the precious minerals that drive your smartphone?

Do you know?

Imagine playing monopoly where you get to play with 1D and 10 pounds in

The bank and your opponent uses both dice and starts with 2000 pounds.

And as your opponent starts raking in the properties and the cash, they might claim

That they are simply a better player.

I'm sure you wouldn't hesitate to point out that their progress

Comes from their unfair advantage.

This is, unfortunately, the world we live in.

It is not a level playing field.

For instance, I might claim my 80 k salary is my right.

It's stemming as it does from working hard at school, choosing to do a

Postgraduate degree, being a diligent employee and its job I got and

Exploring promotion opportunities.

But this misses the point that I grew up in a stable family and shout

Out for mom and dad on this Mother's Day that encouraged me to learn.

Supported my learning to read, funded additional activities

That built my self-confidence.

It ignores that I lived in a prosperous postcode where crime was not a weekly

Problem, where daily life was without threat, where electricity was not

Rationed, where food was never scarce.

It brushes over the fact that my language, my accent, even my skin

Tone were deemed acceptable to the employers I saw at work with.

And if I were to expand the comparison internationally, I'm failing to value

That I have access to free education, healthcare law, enforce enforcement,

That I live under a regime that is not either at war with itself or so

Corrupt that most of what my parents earned had to go on bribes or taxes.

But it's not just about money.

As research by Sendhil Mullainathan, who shows that poverty can actually

Result in a lack of mental bandwidth.

Again, not a level playing field.

When you are worried about food rent, keeping the lights on your

Cognitive capacity literally drops.

IQ scores, decrease decision making, deteriorates, let alone capacity to

Learn, take risks, build networks, invest.

Poverty is exhausting in a way that's hard to understand from the outside.

God absolutely cares about this inequality.

So if you are tempted to lay absolute claim.

To what you have.

It's yours.

Yours alone, earned.

It's your right.

And even beyond that, you judge others' relative level of wealth as either unfair

Advantage if you're looking to the rich or a direct result of their character

Flaws or inadequacy perhaps at the poor.

Then pause.

Think about the advantages you have.

Think about the inequality of the system you live in.

Be thankful and maybe ask God to give you his perspective.

I am privileged.

Does God love me?

Yes.

Does God begrudge me the money I have?

I don't think so.

So what does a just God expect of me in a world of inequality?

In Paul's letter to one Timothy, not one Timothy to Timothy, but one

Timothy chapter six, verse 1719.

It says, command those who are rich in this present world, not to be arrogant,

Nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their

Hope in God who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

Don't get too tied up with what you do or you don't have.

Acknowledge that God is a source of all your good things.

The gospel writers recount a couple of stories about people

Overly focused on their wealth.

First, Jesus points out a rich man who is in the temple virtue signaling the

Amount of money he is giving, and Jesus says he's already received his reward.

If people's admiration is what he's after, he'll get that, but nothing more.

Jesus also tells a parable of a rich man who has a beggar Lazarus daily

Sat at his gate, longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table.

Both die.

Lazarus is in heaven, and the rich man is in hell begging Abraham to relieve

His torment by sending Lazarus down with some water to moisten his lips.

Abraham says, in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus

Received bad, but now he is comforted.

Now, I don't think God is talking about karma here, like a

Rebalancing of your worth on the basis of what you have in life.

Why is Lazarus sat at the gate, longing for scraps, presumably because the

Rich man never gave him anything.

Perhaps he never, never even considered Lazarus's need.

Why will the rich man in the temple not receive any more recognition from God than

The admiration of his fellow temple goers?

Presumably because he actually values that above worship of God.

Where your treasure is, there is your heart.

You see, material wealth can actually numb us to others' plight

And also to what is most valuable.

When we obsess over measuring ourselves against those with

More or those with less, we begin to miss what's most important.

Excuse me, back to our game of monopoly.

Some fascinating studies by a guy called Paul Piff at uc, Berkeley show that as

People get richer, even in, in a game of monopoly, their empathy decreases.

Wealthier participants in an experimental game became worse

At reading facial expressions.

They were more likely to attribute success to their own skill

Rather than luck or circumstance.

They became less generous even in controlled experiments when

The wealth was an illusion.

Another study he did was to track over a day the cars that stopped at a crossing

For a pedestrian to cross, and he found that all those with more expensive

Cars were far less likely to stop for a pedestrian than those with cheaper cars.

Wealth can act as an anesthetic.

It numbs you to the pain of others.

When you don't experience struggle, you tend to stop noticing it in others.

Maybe this is why Jesus said it's hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Maybe this is why the Bible warns us repeatedly about the dangers of pursuing

Material security above, following Gods dependence on stuff, including

Money battles the imprint of God on our hearts love, kindness, compassion,

Wealth tends to make you independent from others, but also from God.

So in response, the Bible directly challenges any security

We put in our possessions.

It suggests we are more equal than we might think.

Back to that Timothy passage in verse seven of chapter six.

It says, for we brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out

Of it, or as Ecclesiastes puts it, we were born naked and we die naked.

Jesus challenges us in Matthew 16, verse 26.

Matthew 16:26

What good will it be for someone if they gain the whole world

But forfeit or lose their soul?

Proverbs 22, verse two says, the rich and the poor have this in common.

The Lord is the maker of them all, or literally, the rich

And the poor meet together.

The rich person is not a God.

To be envied or even somehow worshiped.

The poor person is not a problem to be solved or pitied.

They're both creatures, both made by the same maker, both bearing

The same image, both made for relationship with God and each other.

If you feel superior to the poor, you have forgotten your maker.

If you feel inferior to the rich, you have forgotten your maker.

The ground is level at Christ's cross net worth doesn't change your worth.

So the first response to our unequal world is don't be arrogant.

Don't put your hope in wealth.

But that scripture in one Timothy six goes on, an important follow on.

So it starts off command those that are rich among you, not

To put their hope in wealth,

But to be to, to, to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be

Generous and willing to share.

So don't put your hope in wealth, but do be generous and willing to share.

Going back to the two boys, I started with the hard graft bookkeeper, had

Become partner in the grocery business.

Civil War struck in his country and supplying the army with

Rations skyrocketed the profits.

This allowed our young man to invest in the newly arrived oil boom, refining

Crude to sell as kerosene, but unlike his competitors, he applied his mother's

Lessons of economy and thrift and experimented with the byproducts of

Refining lubricating oil, petroleum jelly, and tar, which he could also

Then sell, and he rapidly became the most profitable refiner just as

Oil use became widespread spread.

What perhaps is less known is that the lifestyle of his wife and five children

Remained relatively unex extravagant.

They had a lovely house, but they didn't splash their cash around.

He considered his expertise and success in business to be a God given gift.

He led a weekly Bible study.

He regularly taught at Sunday school and gave hundreds of thousands

To various church projects, schools, missionary projects.

He and his wife supported women's suffrage, the abolition of slavery

And schools for ethnic minorities.

He also founded two universities and a foundation funding international

Public health and medical training.

He was in the end, the wealthiest man in modern history and quite

Possibly the most generous.

His name of course was John d Rockefeller, the same Rockefeller that

Pete quoted a couple of weeks back.

How much money is enough?

Just a little bit more aquip that recognizes that if wealth

Is a hunger we choose to feed, it will never quite be satisfied.

The second boy joined the army as a knight, a nobleman on a noble

Cause, but Ward did not go well.

He was captured and he fell ill.

His father Gar gathered the necessary ransom to free him, but

His self-confidence was shattered.

He was depressed and his old life of friends and parties

Now seemed rather empty.

He became disillusioned with wealth and infuriated his dad by starting to give

Money away to the poor in his city.

At the age of 24, he had what could be called a divine encounter and felt

A call to rebuild God's church, which he took to mean physical repair.

And as he began to rebuild a ruin, chapel nearby, his separation

From his family increased.

But a few followers began to be drawn to the simple lifestyle of this rich kid.

Turned Jesus freak.

It all came to a head.

One day in the city square, the father publicly demanding repayment

Of all the money the young man had squandered on the poor.

At which point the son renounced all his wealth and inheritance publicly stripping

Off his fine clothes to give back to his astonished father, the bishop of the city

Rushed to cover the man with his cloak.

And from that point on, the young man, Francesco went about his hometown of

Assisi wrapped in a simple tunic tied with a flaxen cord, taking a vow of poverty.

He became, of course, St. Francis of Assisi and the head of a whole

Movement of young men and women renouncing material comfort to serve

God in contemplation and peace.

And he founded the Franciscan Franciscan order.

Its members to this day, living in poverty, emphasizing simplicity,

Environmental care, serving the margin, the marginalized.

Rockefeller and St. Francis aren't necessarily models for our lives,

But two examples of attitudes to money that might challenge us.

Two lives that went actually in opposite directions, but both in

The end, recognizing that wealth for its own sake was not the answer.

They're also very different examples of how God can use lives submitted

To him regardless of material status.

We don't have to renounce all worldly goods to work with Jesus,

And we don't need to gain massive wealth to be of any practical use.

So in summary, God doesn't have a problem with you having money.

He does have a problem with the self-sufficiency and

Hardheartedness it can bring.

And God expects you to recognize the blessings you have and to

Be generous to those with less.

However rich you feel you are or aren't.

Jesus entered poverty, not just God becoming man, but God becoming a poor man.

He didn't stay distant from the struggle.

He moved towards it and he invites us to do the same.

Not to fix poverty through our own effort or to fix the curse of riches for that

Matter, but to be present to the issues.

Let them shape us, shape our attitudes, our prayers, our actions

To remember that we all meet together before the same maker.

The rich need the poor to keep their hearts soft for one thing, to remember

Their dependence on God and the poor need, the rich, not as patrons, but as family.

Both need Jesus.

I. So in response, just a couple of questions before we

Get to Conversation Street.

Questions to ponder,

Where might you have unconsciously absorbed the idea that money equals

Value, that someone's net worth is equivalent to their actual worth?

Second question, where might self-indulgence have crept into your

Life while others around you struggle or self-pity crept in where others succeed?

And finally, what would change practically mentally and emotionally

If you genuinely believe the rich and the poor meet together as equals?

And with that.

I will pass back to you, Matt.

Ah, cool man.

I enjoyed that.

I enjoyed the stories.

I didn't know that about Francis Vassi.

Yeah.

I, I did know that about Rock.

I'm going That's, I'm sure he is talking about rock.

Yeah, he is talking about Rockefeller

Oil kind of gives it away.

Oil comes up like

Yeah, we, we know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But no, I, I love that.

It's, it's quite an interesting one, isn't it, when you get given these

Topics, I mean, I say that 'cause I give out the topics, but it's when,

When we are talking about God's heart for the rich and poor, I loved how

You, how you talked about that at the start by saying his heart is for the

Rich and his heart is for the poor.

Let's get talk over.

But no, I loved it.

I loved it.

Kinda, I, I've put the questions, that you said at the end there

In the comments, you know, where might have you unconsciously absorbed

The idea that money equals value?

'cause that's quite a prevalent thing, isn't it, in society?

Don't you find

It?

It's crazy.

I mean, there was a whole lot more actually that I, it kind of got me into

Looking at, at the, the history of money a little bit and the whole idea of, you

Know, the whole idea of land, for example.

But, you know, in, in, in all of our cultures, money really started

As, as kind of bartering an exchange.

Yeah, you had something, you might have a skill, you might have a bit

Of land, you might be good at growing beans or whatever, and you traded

It for something you didn't have.

And.

That trade and that barter was always in relationship.

Yeah.

So you would come to somebody and you would exchange something with them

And there was a kind of relationship.

Mm.

And then money got invented 'cause it was a lot more efficient because

Yeah, I've got beans, but you haven't got any salt and salts what I need.

So Oh, if you give me money then I can go somewhere else and Yeah.

Yeah.

So money all comes, but it's now got in the last kind of a hundred years

To this weird point where money's kind of got of a life of its own.

It's not just a, like a system of exchange, it's now this kind of identity.

Yeah.

That we worship, that we really look, we idolize the rich,

We're fascinated with the rich.

And, and somehow it's become not just a thing that we use, it's become this.

Big part of our identity, which is just totally messed up.

Yeah,

Yeah.

But, but it's that kind of divorce from any kind of relationship with others.

It becomes our kind of hard cash that has no relationship to others.

That I think is part of that, how that's got so messed up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, it is funny, isn't it?

Like you say, and there's, alongside that is then the appearance of wealth.

So this whole idea of yeah, I need to keep up with the Joneses,

Therefore, as a result, right?

Yeah.

But because it's becomes this whole identity thing.

Yeah.

You get this ridiculous situation.

Yeah.

And there, there's, there's a proverb actually I was reading

The other day, which says, something like Better, better to.

I can't, I'm, I'm gonna completely misquote it, but, but it was basically

Saying better, better to just have, not very much than be pretending, you know?

Yeah.

Completely bankrupt yourself to pretend to be rich.

But, but that's what we would do.

I, I was having a discussion in, in, with one of my kids recently about,

You know, that that appearance of cars, I think is a big one.

Yeah.

Cars on credit.

Yeah.

And like, and my son used to do that the whole time.

It's like, how come they're driving a Ferrari and he's only 23?

Yeah.

And you are 40 something and you are driving this kind of Citron.

Yeah.

And it's like, I very much doubt he's got that on his own money.

But it, but it is this sort of, yeah.

Yeah.

That, that becomes a whole social thing of like, I must demonstrate

That somehow I'm wealthy.

Yeah.

Even if it's absolutely bankrupting you in debt.

Yeah.

It is still a really important value.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

It's, and you're right.

I mean it's, it's, being in business is really interesting when you talk

About capital and return on capital and, you know, do you, if I

Get from you invoice terms of 30 days, it increases my cash flow.

But if I can increase that 60 days and get more cash flow, which

Means I can invest in the, and you start bankrolling the business,

I've run my company for the last 20 years by going, right.

I order from you.

I don't want it, I don't want credit terms, I'm gonna pay you.

Now, here's the money now, therefore any stock that I have on my shelves I own.

Right.

And so there's no debt.

And I, and I get why that's not necessarily a sound

Business decision, right?

And I'm not saying I'm not doing this because I'm making

Some business decisions.

I'm doing this because when it goes wrong and inevitably it's going to mm-hmm.

Because it's just, just the nature of life.

It's nature.

But something's gonna happen.

I don't owe anybody anything.

Yeah.

Do

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And it's, it's a really, so I don't have to borrow money over here to

Keep the cash flow to go and pay.

I could, I could go and lease an Aston Martin

Drive around an Aston I would love at, as if anyone's listening and thinks I

Want to bless Matt with an Aston Martin.

You feel the freedom.

But it's a, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

Because it's like, I could do that because society tells me

That's a really good thing to do.

Yeah.

And I'll get a lot of kudos.

Yeah.

You know, you see all the business guys, on the web with their

Standing in front of their, you know, their posh cars or whatever, or

Sitting on their, it's part of their

Brand.

It's

Part of their, so they all become part of their brand.

So we aspire for this thing.

And then we read books like, what's that famous book by Tim

Ferriss, the Four Hour Work Week?

Right.

So you, you, you then have a generation of people going, I ne I

Only need to work four hours a week and I can have whatever I want.

And it, it, it fascinates me.

It absolutely fascinates me and, and it fascinates me

'cause I got caught up in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, .

And I've got caught up in it quite a few times over the years.

But Elise's put in the comments I've heard people I love and respect espouse a belief

That money and value are correlated.

And often it seems to come from their specific interpretation

Of certain scriptures.

Usually from Proverbs,

There's a lot in Proverbs about, about wealth, but there's an

Awful lot that judges wealth.

So, you know, you can pick and choose your proverbs Yeah.

To say, oh yeah, God blesses the rich, or whatever.

But I would say there's far more that, that challenges that.

And, and I mean, and this is the problem, you know, the, the Bible is

A rich and diverse book and the church is a rich and diverse community and

You can pick all sorts out of it.

And you need, you so need to look at the whole of it, which

Is why we do these Crowd tours.

Yeah.

To try and do, look at the kind of the wholeness of scripture.

And I think it's very hard to read.

Through ho all of scripture and make that conclusion that

Actually God just wants to Yeah.

That, that, that somehow your riches are kind of boosting you up in Yeah.

In the kingdom of God.

And, and, and that's okay with God.

Well, the belief that somehow your bank balance is directly proportionate

To the blessing of God in your life.

I mean, it's just, it's such a dangerous, and, and you know, like with loads of

Things, there's a little germ of truth in it because God does talk about blessing

And, but, and often, you know, when he's talking about the blessing his people, he

Is talking about land and he says, yeah, I'll, you know, I'll, I'll give you water

And I'll give you sunshine and you will be bountiful in your crops and all the rest.

It is a sign of God's blessing.

But it's such a short little step then to kind of make it the thing.

Yeah.

And, and that's when it becomes really dangerous just on your car thing.

I, I have to confess, I, I feel burdened to confess that when I was

Trying to set up a business with a couple of other guys, we used to

Drive around in this tiny little ego, this like little box of a car.

And there was one particular client, was

That, that Toyota?

Yeah, yeah.

There was one particular client we were going to see and, and

We did park around the corner.

It's like, we cannot rock up in their car park in this 'cause they will just not

Take us seriously in terms of distance.

So we did actually Yeah.

Park around the corner and walk to the office.

It's, it's a kind of tough thing to challenge and particularly when

You're in business and particularly when, when you're working in that world.

Yeah.

Because, no, you're right.

It's, I remember going to see, clients, who, if I mentioned

Their name, you'll know them.

Right.

They are very, very wealthy clients.

And I remember we were gonna go do some projects at their house

And I remember thinking, Hmm.

I went to, a couple of car showrooms and said, I need you to understand

I'm going to this person's house.

I have this naff little car outside.

If you lend me a car, I'll drive it to to their house and

They'll see it in the driveway.

I'm not saying anything's gonna come of it, but I will put it in their driveway.

And they were like, awesome.

And

Say,

I would test drive these cars

And put them in the,

In, in the driveway.

But it is, it is.

And again, it's fascinating because you do have, scripture where you,

It talks about Solomon, who was one of the wealthiest guys ever lived.

Right.

And God was clearly giving him

Yeah.

Extraordinary wealth.

You have Abraham extraordinary wealth, even job before things went a bit,

Pong had a lot of wealth, right?

Yeah.

And then you have the Apostle Paul who writes two thirds of the

New Testament, and he makes comments like, I know what it is to be rich.

I know what it is to be poor, but in everything I've learned

The secret to be content.

Yeah.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Yeah.

Which is the context of that very famous verse.

It's like, in other words, how I live in Christ is not based on my bank

Balance, whether I'm ritual poor.

'cause I appreciate that actually in both I can be contending God.

And I think that's the secret, isn't it?

Is the contentment aspect.

Oh absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I, and I think, I mean, you know, you talk about Christ, I mean,

Jesus is not, is not advertising.

Yeah.

God's blessings on me 'cause I'm living this wealthy lifestyle.

That was a, a direct slap in the face for that whole thinking.

Yeah.

Jesus came with nothing.

He, he came as a servant.

He, he.

Earned nothing.

I mean, you know, he, he was a skilled tradesman, but he gave it up Mm. To,

To wander about with these fishermen in a kind of backwater of Israel.

He, he wasn't even part of the kind of the religious or academic kind of,

You know, he didn't go to university.

He was like, and, and that was, I think was God's direct challenge to the whole

Kind of artifice of wealth that had grown up and, and, you know, within the

Jewish time, there, but even more so for us, it's just like, it just

Needs puncturing, but it's difficult.

It really is challenging 'cause we live in that world where there is

That keeping up with the Joneses.

Yeah.

And it's, it's quite challenging stuff to, to, to challenge it.

I, I used to have a friend who, really lovely kind of godly family.

He was, I don't know how many businesses he owned, but they,

They were really wealthy.

And I, I've stayed with him for Easter once and I think it was the

First time I'd really spent time in a family that kind of had it all.

And, they'd just got this, this really new ni lovely, lovely kind of new

Thick pile cream carpet, like all across this beautiful kind of open plan lounge

And someone else who was staying there just like, I think it was the second

Week they had it in just spilled coffee.

Oh.

All over it.

And this dad was just like, just stuff.

Yeah.

It just, I mean, you know, you could argue it's like Yeah.

He had the money not to care about it.

Yeah.

But his attitude has stayed with me for all these years of, like,

He, it just was not significant.

It was far more concerned about the person who spilled the coffee and just

Kind of welcoming and, and all this stuff was kind of, peripheral.

And, and you meet people like that and you think Yeah.

You, you are really genuine and authentic.

Yeah.

And God really has blessed you with wealth.

But if you look under that, I am absolutely certain that a lot of those

People are giving, giving away so much.

Yeah.

But it's, it's, yeah.

We need to keep examining our hearts in check that we're not getting caught

Up in that whole ridiculousness.

I would agree.

And I think the whole thing isn't it, is if you, whatever your wealth level is,

You read the Parable of the Talents, which is a story where Jesus, talks

About a, a a a, a wealthy landowner who goes away and he gives a worker 10

Talents and he gives another one, five, and he gives another one, one as in,

And he, and he likens this guy to God.

So there's unequal distribution.

'cause I mean, part of, I suppose, socialist Christianity that we have

To be a little bit aware of is this belief that everyone will be equal.

Yeah.

And I, I get, in theory, it's, it's nice, but we see in scripture that's

The reality of life is there's, there's not this equality, right?

But what we see is when the guy comes back, you know, the landowner

Comes back and he is like, what have you done with my talents?

The guy that had 10.

Had to produce the 10.

The guy that had five, he had to produce the five and the guy

With one had to produce the one.

Or was it five and two?

I think you do, yeah.

Whatever the numbers are.

But you see what I mean?

It's like, if you have more, I think more is expected of you.

Yeah.

I think

That's

True.

And so I, I don't think it, there's, it's a case of God doesn't

Give more to certain people.

I think he does, but I think God expects more of them.

And I think the other thing that I've noticed is, in my Christian walk

Is it's easy to judge someone who is perceived to be wealthy than you.

Right?

So you look at someone who does drive around Aston Martin,

That's a bit ostentatious.

Do you know what I mean?

And you, and you kind of, and you, it's easy to judge, people with wealth.

But then the reality of life is when you look at my life, compared to

99% of the population of the planet.

I'm the equivalent.

Yeah.

Right.

So they can look at me in the same way.

Yeah.

And we always look in front of us in terms of who's got more and judge, rather than

Looking behind us and judging ourselves.

Yeah.

To do,

I think, I think that's true.

And, and I kind of challenge you in the talk on that.

It's like, where are your eyes drawn?

'cause I would, I would, yeah.

I think the majority of us are drawn to those that Mm. That we

Are envying, and want more.

Yeah.

I mean one of the things I was really fascinated with this, in this talk,

And, and, and this is partly down to the notes that, that you provided for it

Was this kind of empathy gap of wealth.

Yeah.

And again, I was shacked to one of my kids and they were like, Hey, surely if you

Got more, you'd, you'd be more generous.

It's like, and that is the kind of, that's one of the, the twisted bits about it.

Yeah.

But actually as you get more, and this is scientific research has

Been done as you get more, well that

Monopoly experiment you were talking about was crazy.

Yeah.

I mean,

It's just what

I mean, you know, the world isn't even real and you're starting

To kind of lose that empathy.

You Yeah, I'm smarter than you.

And that, that's a, that's a massive trap.

And, and I think that just shows how little God has to do with

That, that that is pretty twisted.

If, if he is, if that imprint of God, of God's compassion on us is being

Eroded by the wealth we are pursuing.

Well, I mean that for me is a real big sign that wealth is not necessarily God's

Plan for us and doesn't show our blessing.

Maybe we'll withdraw.

But it's like I said last week on the, when we're talking about

Generosity, the wealthiest continent in the world is the poorest continent.

Yeah.

Africa by far is twice as generous when you look at it as a

Percentage of, actual income.

GDP

Yeah.

Africa gives twice as much as Europe.

It's just crazy, isn't it?

So you can see it on a, on a massive scale.

Yeah.

And it amazes me.

Yeah,

It does.

And I find it all deeply challenging.

Yeah.

It is really

Challenging because I can, I can, I can look at somebody and

Go, well, you need to give more.

And then I have to look at myself and go, God, what are you saying here?

What is my attitude to wealth?

What is my attitude to money?

Because, you know, I, I, I'm part of Crowd, but I also run my own company.

And it's this really interesting juxtaposition of, you know, the whole

Idea of a company is to make profits.

And that's why company exists, right?

We want to make profit.

And then at the same time, I just, you, you have

This tension in Christianity.

Not that profit or wealth is a bad thing, but the profit you

Generate needs to be fair and right.

But what does that mean?

Because there's no simple definition and it's all based on your inter protection.

You see what I mean?

Yeah.

And there's, there's some really interesting tensions around it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it, we really have to keep close to God on it.

But I think as well, I mean, it's, it's very easy to go on a guilt trip.

Particularly when you look internationally and go, yeah,

I should give everything away.

And, and, and that's, that's not necessarily the first response.

It may be the response and some people have been challenged to, to do that.

But I think something that was really challenged in my heart was that sort

Of, that envy of, of the rich actually.

And, and, and the kind of, yeah.

Just getting caught up in that whole thing of like, oh, if I, if I just had

A bit more of, oh, if I had that, or if, if I wasn't having to pay for this and,

And I could use the money for that, then I could go on those holidays and I could

Go skiing and I could, whatever it is.

And.

And that again, that's, that's, that's corrosive.

Yeah.

That is corrosive in our hearts.

Yeah.

And it's corrosive in our relationships with others.

Yeah.

And ultimately it's corrosive in our relationship to God and it's,

It's stuff that we really need to

Yeah, I'd agree.

Be very aware of,

Yeah.

That envy.

I mean, it's just, it's not helpful.

Is it the covetousness?

Yeah.

You know, whatever language you want to use to describe

It.

And I think, you know, it is helpful to recognize that, yeah,

It might be a bit more comfortable.

But actually, and another start, I came across actually, that the, the, the levels

Of poor mental health amongst the rich are far higher than amongst the poor.

Mm. Which again, is a kind of a, a bit of a parad does.

How does that work?

You don't really expect that to be, but, but that is actually, again,

That studies, studies have shown that.

It's the wealthier you get, the more likely you are to have, to have very poor

Mental health and anxiety and depression.

And again, you like, well, that's crazy.

But it's, it's the grip that it can get.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation.

Have

You got any more, any more comments?

So, Rachel says, my kids went to a school where people were rich compared

To us, and this started their thoughts.

Then you have social media, which hyped it all up to Yeah.

Yeah.

I think kids with social media is just, yeah, that's one of the

Things you have to be careful of.

It's that whole comparison thing.

Yeah.

It's a selective portrayal.

Yeah.

Of, I, so I, I went to a school, 'cause my, my dad taught at such a

School and, I remember once being invited round to a friend's house

And their lawn was so big they had a tractor to mow it, like one of those

Little kind of sit on tractor mowers.

And I, I'd just never see anything so.

Unbelievable in my life.

I was like, I am not part of this Crowd.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is not who I am.

Alicia says, dealing with major depressive episodes, sometimes I

Lean into those self pitying beliefs.

I think it's a particularly diabolical trick of the other guy.

I assume she means the enemy, to bog people down with comparison thinking.

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

'cause that, that will, that will block off relationship with others.

That whole kind of deception and again, ultimately block us up from God.

And, and it's, yeah.

I mean, it's, I get it and, and I understand it and, and we

Kind of find different things to try to make sense of it.

There's a wonderful psalm and I'm, I'm gonna forget which, which one it is 20.

Four, no, I don't know, 42.

And, and it's, it's this sense of me really grappling with these things.

And it's like, I'm, I'm really struggling.

It's like, why, why do the unrighteous keep, keep succeeding?

Why am I the one that's trying to do things right and stuck in this hole?

And it's got this wonderful phrase at the end.

It's like, then I came into your presence, God and I understood.

And there's a sense of like, we've gotta take all the kind of that

Turmoil of the inequality that actually we live in, which, which is

Exhausting wherever you sit in it.

But particularly when you're at the bottom.

And just bring it into God's presence.

And you literally just come at, bring it before God and say, God, just, just remind

Me, remind me again what's important.

Yeah.

Remind me of what you say.

Remind me of what I am in your eyes.

And, and dig into some of those scriptures because.

It's a toxic environment.

It is.

It really is.

Massively.

So again, wealth is neither a guaranteed sign of God's

Blessing, nor is a lack of it a guaranteed sign of God's curse.

Yeah.

I think it's how you deal with it.

That actually is a sign of your heart before God.

Yeah.

And what you do with the wealth that he has given you, my experience is the more

Generous you can be with that wealth, the more generous God tends to be with you.

It's like he can trust you

With it.

Yeah.

I was gonna say, it's absolutely it.

It's like Yeah.

Show, show yourself trustworthy with God.

Yeah.

And, and he will.

He will give you stuff 'cause he, he wants then to share it out.

Yeah, absolutely.

Mely says, my partner will say, I think wealth can be a good indicator

Of someone's ability in their line of work, assuming they have acquired

It from work, especially in business.

Big, big assumptions.

So one of the crazy things about this whole history of money thing is that

Now wealth is entirely unrelated.

So when, you know, you've got people bidding on stocks of companies that they

Have no relationship with, they, they don't even know what the company does,

But they're just in the kind of those, I, I'm, I'm not a stock trader, but kind

Of in the speculation on the value of a company going up and down and, you know.

I imagine that might be a family company that someone's grown up over a hundred

Years and it's become wealthy and you've got some kid across the world, knows

Nothing about your story, knows nothing about your product, who's just speculating

On the value of it and earning money.

And it's like, I, I don't, you know, there's some intelligent people and,

And they've kind of chosen that line of work, but I cannot say that that is,

They're any better than anyone else.

So it's kind of speculative.

Oh, I don't think they're saying that it's a value thing, but I,

I, I get the point which says, like if you become a medical doctor

And you spend those years studying

Yeah.

Then is it right that your salary is more than somebody?

Who didn't do that amount of study.

Yeah.

Who does a laboring job, for example.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and for some I would agree, it, it's fairly, it's fairly

Clear cut, although you do start getting into what society values and not Yeah.

There's what, I can't remember what country is where the teachers

Get paid the same as the medics, which I think is brilliant.

Mm. It's just like, they just value, it's not England really.

It's not England, it's definitely not England.

How much I do know,

It is not England.

But actually using that as a kind of a general thing.

Now, the way people can generate wealth from

Mm,

I mean from extortion actually, I mean from all sorts of things.

It's not a useful metric.

Most I'd

Say.

And I, I know a lot of very, very able people who have chosen to.

To actually lay all that aside.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

And, and yeah.

So I, I get the point, but I think there are other, like you said, there are

Other metrics to, to think about here.

Right.

Well, I'm aware of time.

So what we are gonna do is we are gonna close the lifestyle.

I love that, by the way.

It was good.

Thanks for the comments.

Thanks for the chats.

In the comments.

We're gonna close the live stream down in just a few seconds time.

So, let me put in the comments, the live lounge.

So do come join us on Live Lounge.

It'd be great to meet you on there.

Go Crowd Church slash meet, time.

Oh, there we go.

I just will put YouTube on his phone.

I could hear my voice, coming from his phone coming into land.

It's like, back to the future, has somehow occurred in my, in my studio.

But yes, thank you so much for joining us.

Do come join, like I said, join us in Live Lounge.

It will be great to have you there.

If not, join us next week.

Dave Conley is wrapping up this series on Money.

He's gonna be talking about legacy.

Which I'm really looking forward to.

Especially 'cause Dave obviously is, he's a grandfather.

He's at sort of the next life stage from where we are.

And so I'm really curious to hear what he has to say.

Good.

That'll be some wisdom, I have no doubt.

So yeah, do come join us next week with Dave Cony.

I think I'm gonna be here.

I'm not sure who else is here actually.

I should probably shift the road as long, as long as Dave's here.

That'd be the main thing really.

But yeah, that's it from me.

Will anything from you in closing, buddy?

No, no, that was a good discussion and thanks.

Yeah, as Matt said, thanks for the questions.

Yeah, Ross says, thanks guys.

Really interesting, Alicia.

Thanks for the fantastic talk.

And she's either put the Prayer emoji or the high five emoji,

Depending on how you interpret.

I take them both.

Thanks Lisa.

Matt Crew says goodnight.

Goodnight guys.

God bless you.

Have a phenomenal week.

Come join us in Live Lounge.

If you get a chance.

It'll only be like five or 10 minutes in there.

But we'll see you in there.

Otherwise, we'll see you next week.

That's it from me.

That's it from Will.

Thank you so much for joining us.

God bless you.

Bye for now.