What If the Easter Story Is Actually True?

Good evening, you wonderful people, and happy Easter to you. He is risen.

He's risen indeed.

He is risen indeed.

We practiced that and everything. So I grew up in a house on Easter morning

where my dad would come in, throw the curtains wide, and say, he is risen. And

the answer was, he is risen indeed. but, yeah, we come from mixed backgrounds.

Yeah, like me and Dan, me and Dan didn't come from houses which started the day

like that, I'm afraid.

No. But a very happy Easter to you, wherever you're, listening, dialing in

from. And, if you're watching this on catch-up, then it's probably not Easter

day, but, welcome anyway. Lovely to see you. so this is Crowd Church. we are an

online church, and we're, I'm joined— my name is Will. I'm joined this evening

by, by Anna. Say hello, Anna.

Hello everyone, it's good to be here tonight.

And we have got the wonderful Dan who is speaking to us this evening, who we'll

come on to in a minute. So Crowd Church, if you've not been part of it before,

is, we have a talk, posing questions, please put questions, conversation in, in

the chat, any, any points that you want to make, even as Dan is speaking. We're

going to have then Conversation Street afterwards where we will chat further

about the, the contents of what's been said. And then after about 50 minutes,

we're going to join in a live lounge. You are very welcome to come on the Google

Meet. The link will go in the chat later to just connect further. So please feel

free to, yeah, as I said, comment in the chat and join us. So Anna, what was

your, what was your day like? It started quite early.

It was good. Yeah, it started early. We did Easter eggs quite early. I've Got

an 11-year-old boy, so he was up bright and early waiting for his chocolate,

because that's obviously the main point of Easter.

You made him hungry.

Yeah, he did do an Easter egg hunt, and yeah, I was out of the door quite early

this morning actually because I was part of a gospel choir this morning in our

local church. So yeah, I was out early for a sound check at like half 8, so it

was an early start. Then we came home for a roast, lots of family games this

afternoon. Got my mum and dad staying, they might even be watching now on the

live feed. If we're lucky. Yeah, so it's been a good day. How was yours?

Fantastic. Yeah, yeah, very good. Similarly, quite early, early up out the

door, taking my parents over to my aunt's house on the Wirral where we managed

to get to her church and had a lovely, lovely meal around at hers and also an

Easter egg hunt after lunch. There was one cream egg that went missing. I did

try to kind of count them all out and try to remember where I hid them all, but

one remains somewhere in the house.

It'll be like a surprise. Prize in a few weeks' time.

Or it'll be eaten by ants. Yeah, discovered in July, just a bit of foil. A

little bit rusty. That's, that's part of Easter egg hunts really, isn't it? So

yeah, hope you've had a lovely Easter wherever you're celebrating. Why don't you

put in the chat what you've done today and how you've celebrated Easter? We do

get people joining from all over the world and traditions are different. In

fact, I learned— I was— we were talking a bit about Easter Bunny and things

like, how on earth I think one of the kids asked, what is it with, with a bunny

and eggs? So I, and I didn't know this, but apparently that, that, that started

in Germany, that whole tradition that there was a, a spring hare that laid

coloured eggs in bonnets. I mean, crazy.

Yeah, but I don't think that— maybe I'm wrong on this, but I don't think they

did like originally chocolate eggs because I remember going on a school

exchange. This is going a bit off the point now, but when I was about 14, I went

on a school exchange and I stayed there over the Easter holidays because I

distinctly remember we had to paint loads of, you know, just like regular kind

of hen's eggs. Yeah, loads of them, and we had to paint them all, and that's

what they did, and that was kind of the German tradition. Yeah, and I think it

was more of a kind of decorated eggs rather than chocolate eggs originally.

Yeah, it's probably capitalism that's made them chocolate. I don't know, I don't

know. Someone who knows what they're talking about, tell us.

That's totally right. Yeah, but yes, so something else I learned, that

traditionally in the traditional church— I wouldn't necessarily call Crowd

Church traditional church, but you couldn't eat eggs in Holy Week. So all the

eggs that were laid in Holy Week, you'd collect together and you would paint.

Oh, that makes sense.

And then, like, you know, they're there. So whether they were ready, whether

you could actually eat them by Easter Day or not, I would just have them

painted. But I think that's where the tradition started. Anyway, without further

ado, so we've talked a lot about traditions of Easter, but we've got Dan with

us, and he's going to tell us actually a bit more about Easter, about the real

Easter. So stay tuned. Please, as I said, put questions, comments in the chat,

and we'll see you in a little while for Conversation Street. Dan, over to you.

Well, thank you, Will. Yeah, so there are lots of traditions, aren't there? But

today I want to talk about history, not just a story. And let me explain. I

believe, and we'll unpack this later, but Easter is a historical account of

Jesus of Nazareth. Being crucified, as we heard last week, and then rising from

the dead. A miracle in history. If you know anything about the Bible or you

listen to talks before on Crowd, then miracles are talked about all the time.

Miracles like the feeding of the 5,000, healing the sick. You've probably heard

us talk of times where God has healed us here in this room, provided for us,

spoken to us. All amazing things, but I wonder if you hear them and often just

store them in your memory as stories or fables. That was back then. That's just

their take on things. Coincidence. I can believe good things of Christianity

without the factual impossibilities. Well, can you? Today I'm talking about

Easter. A miracle. This man Jesus was killed and 3 days later he rose from the

dead. No metaphor, no illustration, not an old legend. A straight-up miracle. An

impossibility in the natural world. He was sealed in a tomb, then he was out. He

spoke, he ate with others, many witnesses, and then he ascends to heaven. So,

wow, you know, that's a, that's a huge thing, isn't it? Let's take a look at the

why and the what and the how of all of this. So All of the four Gospels talk

about the resurrection of Jesus. It's so high up in their priority of memories

that it needed to be recorded. And in all accounts, the first people to see

Jesus, discover the missing tomb, are women. We've got Mary Magdalene, Mary the

mother of James, and different women in the different accounts. And why is this

important? Well, this is a time when a woman's testimony wasn't valued. It was

deemed unacceptable in a court of law. So if you're going to start a religion or

a movement on this pivotal, pivotal point, you're probably going to get some men

really recording this, these first sightings. But I believe recording that the

women— oh, that's the time delay. but I believe that women were the first to see

the risen Jesus. Actually, the fact that women were the first to see recorded

gives this more credibility. It shows that they, the Gospel writers, recorded

what actually happened, not just the story they wanted to tell, not just a story

that would give them more credibility. And I mentioned that the differing counts

also have different records of the actual women that were there. And again, if

you're going to write this down, all these facts then, and how they're recorded,

then, you're going to write them down, you sort of get all your stories

straight. Like if you were, you know, committing a crime and you have a little

chat between each other, you get the names the same. So this gives it, I feel,

much more credibility in all these reports. So before I do go any further, so

I'm just going to take some little bits here. I really recommend a book if you

want to go into more detail. It's a book by a journalist called Lee Strobel. He

wrote an amazing book called The Case for Christ, great book looking at all the

evidence for Christ. And he was so convinced that he became a Christian after

writing it. And, some of that book and a little extra he's put into a newer book

called The Case for Easter, and it's well worth a read, or 2 hours 48 minutes if

you listen to the audiobook. I get most of my knowledge through audiobooks as

I'm driving around through the day. So, back to my brief summary of things. We

have the women discovering that Jesus isn't in the tomb. Let's read one of the

accounts. This is chapter 28 of Matthew. Now, after the Sabbath, toward the Dawn

Isaiah 28 · chapter mention

of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the

tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord

descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His

appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of

him, the guards trembled and became like dead men. But the angel said to the

women, 'Do not be afraid.' For I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He

is not here; he has risen.' And he said, 'Come, see the place where he lay. Then

go quickly and tell the disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold,

he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told

you.' So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy and ran to

tell his disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they

came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. And Jesus said to them, "Do

not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see

me." What an amazing few sentences. For those of you who have listened to the

talk that I did at Christmas, there's some more "do not be afraid" moments. An

angel with appearance of lightning: "Don't be afraid." You can have a search and

have a listen. I love that. I love that. Don't be afraid. So God, when God

breaks into our lives, sometimes it's just too much for these earthly eyes to

grasp and to behold. We've got an angel, we've got the amazing dedicated women,

we've got guards who are just knocked out. Then off the women run to tell this

amazing news. And then there's this, this, this is one bit where I'm sure

Matthew and the translations of the Bible have just perhaps put a very short

account of history. Greetings. Jesus just says greetings. I personally think

perhaps there was a few more words that went there. What do you think? When they

saw the risen Jesus and worshipped him. Then another encounter with the risen

Jesus is recorded, this time in Luke's Gospel. Two of the disciples had visited

the empty tomb They were then walking to a town called Emmaus, discussing the

events of the last few hours and days. They'd heard the news that the tomb was

empty and were off for a walk. And the place they're walking to can maybe tell

us something about what they were thinking. Back then, if you talked to someone

about Emmaus, the first thing you'd think about was the last big battle the

Jewish people, the Maccabees, they led a revolt against the Greek army and won

their It's a bit like talking to an American and mentioning Pearl Harbor, or

talking to your granddad and mentioning the Somme. Immediately, wars and events

would spring to mind. And often in the Bible, these facts that are mentioned are

put there for a reason. And I think it's added here to show us that these

disciples were perhaps thinking, "This is what we thought Jesus was going to do.

There would be another battle. He was the Son of God, and finally Jerusalem will

be freed." And the Romans defeated, their heads were focused on what they

thought should have happened. Do you ever have times when you think God should

have worked in a different way? This can't be right, because if it was, God

would have sorted things by now. He would have done it this way with that in

mind. These disciples are walking along and Jesus appears next to them. So,

let's read in Luke 24. Luke 24:13. That very day two of them were going to a

Luke 24:13

village named Emmaus, about 7 miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each

other about all these things that had happened. While they were talking and

discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes

were kept from recognizing him. And he said to them, "What is this conversation

that you are holding with each other as you walk?" And they stood still, looking

sad. Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, "Are you the only visitor to

Jerusalem that does not know the things that have happened there in these days?"

And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "Concerning Jesus of

Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the

people, and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to and condemned

him to death and crucified him." But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem

Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things

happened. Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb

early in the morning, and when they did not find his body, they came back saying

that they had even seen a vision of angels who said that he was alive. Some of

those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said.

But him they did not see. And he said to them, O foolish ones, and slow of heart

to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the

Christ should suffer these things and enter into glory? And beginning with Moses

and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things

concerning himself. So they drew near to the village to which they were going.

He acted as if he was going farther, but they urged him strongly, saying, "Stay

with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent." So he went in

to stay with them. When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed

it and broke it and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened, and they

recognized him, and he vanished from their sight. They said to each other, "Did

not our hearts burn within us when he talked to us on the road?" while he opened

up the Scriptures. And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem. Has

your head ever been in a place where you've missed Jesus? You've heard God's

Word in the past, you've seen his wonders in your own life, but somehow now you

can't quite work out what's going on with his current situation. These guys that

have been around with Jesus for 3 years every day and didn't recognize him.

Sometimes God closes our eyes. Sometimes we blink our own eyes, thinking, as

I've said before, that we talked about last week, that we have in our mind how

God is going to do things. But then they recognized Him. Then their friend,

their leader, Rabbi Jesus, and immediately they went back to Jerusalem, back

along the Emmaus Road, but the other direction, back to the other disciples. The

resurrection was a pivotal event, not just because of the miraculous nature of

it, because of what it means to us. And it isn't just talked about in the

Gospels, it's recorded in multiple books of the Bible. And perhaps one of the

main passages is when Paul talks about it in writing to the Corinthian church.

In chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians, he says this: For I delivered to you As of first

importance, what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance

with the Scriptures, that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day

in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the

Twelve, then he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are

still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to

all the apostles, and last of all As to one untimely born, he appeared also to

me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle,

because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am,

and his grace toward me was not in vain. So Paul summarizes some of the

encounters with Jesus that others had. He mentions Cephas, and this is Simon,

that was another name for Simon. And 500 others. And he even says, if you don't

believe me, loads of them are still alive, go and ask them. Well, you know, I

paraphrase that, but that's what he's saying. And some were already believers,

and there was also James, the brother of Jesus. He gets a special mention,

because he'd been a bit of a skeptic. We heard earlier on in the Gospels that

they, you know, what's my brother doing? But when he saw his brother back from

the dead, everything changed for him. Jesus was seen alive by many people for 40

days after rising from the dead. Why does this miracle change things? Jesus,

before the crucifixion, talked about being born again. He said, "The only way to

come to the kingdom of heaven is to be born again." To die to our old self and

to be raised in Christ. Well, when Jesus died and rose again, he was a literal

living testimony that we can be made new. Let me share a story. I was watching a

documentary with my daughter a few weeks ago about insects, and this particular

episode was about the dragonfly. Anyone know the life cycle of a dragonfly? I

didn't know it. No idea. I had no idea. I'd seen, you know, seen plenty of

dragonflies around, and they're amazing, aren't they? They're like real-life

quadcopters, I think. In the UK, I think they're probably one of the biggest

insects we have. If you're watching from other parts of the world, or Australia,

you can probably hear the comments, "That's not a bug, can't even kill you!" You

know, but in the UK, pretty impressive. Amazing colours, speeding around, and

they can just hover. So back to the life cycle. These insects, they start their

life out underwater, and they're small nymphs, and they're pretty unassuming

black nymphs that swim around in the water, gradually growing, often shedding

their outer layers and slowly getting bigger. For up to 2 years, they're just

floating around underwater, hidden from the world above, hidden from the air.

Then one day, they climb up some kind of river plant or pond growth and out of

the water. And this is where things start to get interesting. This nymph sheds

its dark skin and its amazing colored blob of a creature sort of emerges, these

colors that have never been seen before. It takes its first ever breath. Yeah,

we're talking 2 minutes here. 2 years underwater, and then within minutes it's

this colored blob on a stalk taking a breath. But it's still not finished, can't

fly. And these wings roll out, and apparently they're inflated. That's what the

documentary said. It's on the stalk, beautiful created wings that are inflated,

and the sun's drying them. And then within an hour, it flies off transformed.

It's the same creature that lived under the water, but it's different. It's the

same, but it can breathe. It's the same, but it can fly. And why do I tell you

this story? It's of the dragonfly. Well, I watched this documentary, and ever

since I've been thinking about it. That nymph has the same DNA as the dragonfly.

It's the same but different. Can I say it had a new life? It received breath.

And as I'm reading more of the Bible and listening to much brainier people than

me that can speak Greek and Hebrew, I've learned that the word in Hebrew for

breath is the same as spirit. God breathes into us life. He breathed into Adam

and Eve. And He left us the Holy Spirit. He's come to give us life. Jesus died

on the cross and rose again. He conquered death. In John's Gospel, it says, "I

came to give you life, and life in all its fullness." Let's read a bit more of

the Corinthians and what Paul goes on to say. I'm going to jump ahead a bit. I'm

going to read from The Message translation. I find The Message translation helps

me understand the verses and passages of the Bible in a way that shows me the

ideas and meaning behind some of the more complex theology. It's a paraphrase,

it's not an exact translation, so we can't go into each word, but it really

helps my brain to understand what Paul is trying to get across in his message.

So, starting at verse 35. Some skeptic is sure to ask, "Show me how resurrection

works. Give me a diagram, draw me a picture. What does this resurrection body

look like?" If you look at this question closely, you realize how absurd it is.

There are no diagrams for this kind of thing. Do not have a parallel experience

in gardening. We do have a parallel experience in gardening. You plant a dead

seed, soon there's a flourishing plant. There's no visual likeness between seed

and plant. You can never guess what tomato would look like by looking at the

tomato seed. What we plant in the soil and what grows out of it don't look

anything alike. The dead body that we bury in the ground and the resurrection

body that comes from it will be dramatically different. You'll notice that the

varieties of bodies are stunning. Just as there are different kinds of seeds,

there's also different kinds of bodies—humans, animals, fish, etc.—unprecedented

in its form. You get a hint at the diversity of resurrection glory by looking at

the diversity of bodies Not only on earth, but in the skies, in the sun, moon,

stars, all these varieties of beauty and brightness. And we're only looking at

pre-resurrection seeds. Who can imagine what the resurrection plants will be

like? This image of planting a dead seed and raising a live plant is a mere

sketch at best, but perhaps it will be— it will help in approaching the mystery

of the resurrection. Only if you keep it in mind that when we're raised, we're

raised for good, alive forever. The corpse that's planted is no beauty, but when

it's raised, it's glorious. Put in the ground weak, it comes up powerful. The

seed is natural, the seed grown is supernatural. Same seed, same body, but what

a difference from when it goes down in physical mortality to when it's raised up

in spiritual immortality. Isn't that great? Paul talks about a seed, like I

talked about the dragonfly. The seed dies when in the ground, but when woken up,

it grows. It's much stronger. It's a new creation. It's still from that seed.

It's not a new thing, but it is a new thing. It has some of its original design,

its essence, perhaps its DNA, but now it's got its potential. Christ died and

rose that we can have life in Christ. Getting out of the Message paraphrase now

and into the English Standard Version, which is what we often use in Crowd, it

says this in verse 42: So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown

is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is

raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it's raised in power. It's sown in a

natural body, it's raised a spiritual body. If there's a natural body, then

there is also a spiritual body. There's a natural body and a spiritual body, and

this natural body is not fit for heaven. We need to be transformed into the

spiritual body for heaven. Paul says later we'll be changed in the twinkling of

an eye. But Jesus was raised When Jesus was raised, he took off that corruptible

body and he looked the same, but death no longer had power over him. And because

of this death, his death, it no longer has power over us. Jesus was the same

man. The disciples spoke to him, they ate with him. He wasn't a ghost or an

apparition. A ghost can't eat. An apparition or hallucination appears to one

person at a time, not different people altogether. Jesus was physical. You may

have heard, when you've heard the Easter story before, about Thomas' words

saying, "Unless I see the marks in his hands and feet and his side, I won't

believe." Often called Doubting Thomas, and I think that's perhaps a bit unfair

because if I was there, I think I'd want to check. I want to check that this was

the Jesus I knew. And when Jesus saw him, He said, "Thomas, come and put your

hands here. Touch Me where the nails were." There's two things that I want to

pick up on here. Firstly, when Thomas said, "I won't believe until He wasn't

with Jesus," "I won't believe until I see Him," he wasn't actually with Jesus.

He was with some of the other disciples who were recounting their stories of

seeing Jesus and then 8 days later, Thomas comes and he says to him, 'Put your

hands here.' Jesus knew what Thomas had said without being with him, and this

was, I think, part of the resurrected Jesus. He and the Father are one, and yes,

him and the Father have always been one, but something happened in that

resurrected that form, and he called Thomas and said, "Come and see." Jesus, God

our Father, knows what we need. And secondly, I was struck by what Dave Connolly

said a few weeks ago about scars, that they sort of remind us of some of the

events that we've had in the past. And I thought, Jesus, he carried those scars

as a reminder of what had happened, what he'd been through. He was raised from

the dead. It was miraculous. His back was torn. He probably lost most of his

blood when he's raised from the dead. That miracle happened. God, of course,

could have healed every part of him and healed those, those scars as well. one

of the prophets Isaiah hundreds of years before. He said, "By His stripes we are

healed." Those scars bear the testimony of those stripes. When I read the

passage earlier, you may have noted that Jesus appeared to them, and after His

resurrection, this happened multiple times. He was just there. And I don't know,

and I don't understand this, but just to say that this risen Jesus broke the

power of sin and death and the power of natural that was upon Him. He also seems

to pray, you know, in the past He broke some of the natural laws, didn't He? He

walked on water. But it happened so much more after rising from the dead. Many

times He just appeared to those around Him. I'd love to know where He was when

He wasn't with those that recorded these encounters. Perhaps He was spending

time just with, you know, with His Father. I don't know. What does Easter mean

For us? Well, we've just seen a little bit. It's a massive question. But I

believe there's too much evidence to ignore this miracle. What's it going to

mean to you? One thing is for sure, the power of death was broken. Sin was

defeated. Going back again to Paul in 1 Corinthians, and we haven't enough time

to read all of it, but I'd encourage you to read it. Paul gets excited. He

proclaims, "Death is swallowed up in victory." O death, where is your victory? O

death, where is your sting? Quoting some of Isaiah the prophet, he will swallow

up death forever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces. If we

truly know that death has been beaten, then what does it mean for us, this life

on earth? What does it mean for our priorities? If this life is just a glimpse

of life with God, if this life is a struggle but eternity is the goal, then

where's our focus? Where is my focus? Is it more wealth, more earthly things, or

is it more heavenly reward, more resurrected friends in heaven with us? Does it

make it easier that life can be less about us and more about others? Oh God,

thank you for your ultimate sacrifice. Thank you for a transformed life, for

life after death. Thank you for Easter.

Oh man, oh man, I mean, how exciting it is, isn't it? It's like those glimpses

of just something other. Yeah, really, that really caught my imagination.

Imagine being that little nymph and going, I'm going to be a dragonfly one day,

because they've got no concept of it. And And like the guys on Emmaus, they

didn't really have the concept of what this meant and what this— what, what they

could be as a result. It was so— they were kind of locked into what they

understood, which was we live, we die, that's it. and there's, there's no kind

of legacy beyond that. And yet here was Jesus just kind of just giving them a

glimpse of like, there is so much more. How exciting, how exciting.

Yeah, there was so much in that talk, Dan. Thank you so much for that. I just

love the question that you finished on, like, what does Easter mean to you? And

I think that is something that, yeah, we can all ask, whether we're searching

and looking into Christianity for the first time, whether we've been Christians

for years and years like some of us around this table have. I just feel like

That's something we can all take away and mull over, and like, certainly

something I'll take away and continue to think about over the next few days.

It's just too big a question, isn't it, to dismiss? It's too big an event.

Yeah. If you believe it's true, and I have no evidence to say it's not true, you

know, there's more evidence that it happened, what are you going to do about it?

What am I going to continue to do about it?

And how's it What does it mean for your life, and how does it potentially

change your life?

Yeah, yeah, it's good questions to sit with, really. Absolutely. And I feel

like another thing that really struck me from, from your talk, Dan, was that

this, this issue of expectation, that clearly that his followers were not

expecting this end. The guys on the mess were not expecting this end. They, they

probably had— they had a whole load of other scenarios that might work out, but

this they did not expect. Curiously, in the Easter story, the authorities did

expect it because they say in one of the accounts, it's like, oh, while he was

alive, he said he was going to rise from the dead after 3 days, so put a guard

on the tomb and make sure that that doesn't happen because that lie will be

awful for us. And yet his followers, who also have been told several times by

Jesus that he would die and rise again, are just completely floored by it. And

when the women come back, they say, You're talking nonsense. I mean, literally,

you're talking nonsense. I don't believe you. Yeah. And so that their

expectations were just too small. And that's what I love about Easter. It just—

as the tomb breaks open, it just breaks open our expectations of Jesus as well.

Yeah, absolutely right.

And yeah, I also think— I love that point that you made, Dan, about, when

Thomas was asking to see the holes in his hands, and he wanted to see the scars

for himself before he believed it. He wanted to see Jesus up close, right in

front of him. Like, I won't I don't believe it until I see it for myself. And I

also think I love that inclusion, but in, in scripture, because I feel like,

aren't we all like that? Like, I need to experience God for myself. I need to

meet this Jesus face to face and experience him in my own life and understand

what his presence and his reality in my life actually means and get up close and

personal. Otherwise it's just religion, isn't it? It's just following some

rules, some ancient religion. And I feel like we all have an element of that.

And I love that inclusion of that bit in the story, actually, because it's like,

it's absolutely valid to be like, you know, if you're kind of thinking, oh,

maybe there's something in this Christianity thing, but I need to understand it

and meet God, you know, meet Jesus for myself and really see the proof, that's

okay. Like, ask God to show you, because I believe he will. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love that fact. Yeah, yeah. And also that just the whole concept of

greetings, it's just like that real trim down. It's like, yeah, not only is

Jesus risen from the dead, which is like, you know, there was belief in Jewish

thought about resurrection, but no one had done it. Yeah, yeah. so there was,

there was that, that reality because they're seeing Jesus, the physical Jesus,

eating. They can touch him, you know, physical. But he's not some elevated

being. He's still their friend. Yeah, he's still like, hey, I just want to hang

out with you. And yeah, I'm going to appear to these 500 people and I'm going to

walk with you for the next 40 days or whatever it is till he finally ascended

into heaven. And I mean, that, that must properly blow, blow their mind, you

know? It's like, yeah, yeah, he wrote— he rose again. He's far too great for me

now. He's like, he's not gonna eat fish with me. I was like, yeah, I followed

him for 3 years, but he's like He's on another level now. But now he comes right

back and he just walks with them as a friend. Yeah, that's incredible.

It's just so lovely, isn't it? It is. You just defeated death. You've been,

however you want to describe it, down to Hades. Your spirit is conquered. And

then, greetings. I'll just go back to my mates now.

Yeah. And, yeah.

But I also— Go and tell everyone.

Yeah, I know. Also, love, like, before all of that, like, the first people that

he appears to are the women. And I love, you know, we're talking about a series

at the moment, aren't we? We're about to go into it about, like, how Jesus is a

complete revolutionary and how he, how he was so countercultural in his day. And

it's just another really good example of how Jesus took kind of what people

expected It just turned it upside down. Like, the Jews wanted this, like, savior

figure who was gonna, like, come victoriously, and they thought that's what they

were getting on Palm Sunday. But then he was riding a donkey, and then a week

later he's crucified. Like, what happened to this, like, political— great

political leader who was going to lead our nation into freedom? And Jesus turns

it on his head. And then again with the women, it's like, well, You know, women

didn't have the same cultural standing as men in those days, and Jesus was like,

no, I'm gonna put the women front and central of the story in a culture and a

time zone when women weren't front and center, really. And I just love the fact

that this, you know, who Jesus is, just constantly turns expectation. And yeah,

it's so counterculture, isn't it? It just takes what you expect and it's so much

better, like, turns it upside down.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I heard a lovely thing actually today, just thinking

about the women coming to the tomb, because the reason they're coming to the

tomb is there wasn't time between the death and then the Sabbath, where you do

no work, to anoint Jesus' body for burial, anoint them with like fragrant oil

and sort of preserving it. And it was an act of worship, and for them it was

their final act of worship. It's like, I don't understand Jesus, but it's been

amazing knowing you. Thank you for all you've given, and this is my final act of

gratitude is just to anoint your dead body, and then, oh man, and that

beginning, that dawning of like, there's something else going on here that's

completely new, must have been incredible. Yeah. Why, why the women? I mean, I'm

totally with you, it's like, it's another, it's another kind of point of

association, I suppose, in the story. But I wonder what would have been

different if it had been Yeah, the men. If it just kind of appeared straight

away to, say, the 12 or whatever, I wonder what it was about the, the women's

testimony. Maybe we'll never know. It's not really written down, but even in the

early church, that the fact that it was the women's testimony and they were the

first, I wonder. It's something you've ever thought about.

But no, it's just, it's when sort of going into the talk, it was because I've,

I've heard it before. They've said, well, you know, it was a— it wasn't a

testimony that you'd— they would take as granted and then and never sort of use

that to realize, well, that actually makes it more realistic because of that.

Yeah. and like I was, I was trying to say, if you, if, you know, there's 3 of us

and we've committed this, this crime, we get all these little details correct,

don't we? And the fact it was just— yeah, yeah, these women and probably more of

them than even written down there. Just like you say, yeah, grieving, but also

bold. The men were off somewhere.

The women stuck around.

I kind of love that fact though, the men, where were they? Exactly, Jesus went

to the women first, where were all the men?

Hiding somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, incredible. And I think that I mean, you

know, obviously resurrection is a difficult thing to get your head around, and,

and so many, so many people, they get to that point of like, well, yeah, and

Jesus seems a great guy and seems great, great teaching to follow, but

resurrection, really? And again, I really like your analogy of the nymph there,

that it's really hard to grasp something so beyond what our reality— that we're

so bound up in our physical self-centered reality at times. And, and what this

story begins to bring, it just breaks that open, begins to give us a glimpse.

And you did— the Corinthians passage does it brilliantly. Yeah, that's just a

little foretaste. There's so much more. What would a resurrected plant look

like? Yeah, let alone— yeah, I love that. I love—

that's, that's why I quite enjoy reading The Message, because you just get that

little bit of sort of excitement in there, don't you? Well, this is, this is

what this seed has happened, this is just a natural seed. What's a resurrected

seed look like?

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, if you're struggling with that whole how can someone come

back to life, just, I don't know, maybe just test God out and say, give me that

glimpse of something so much beyond my experience and my earthly knowledge and

my natural assumptions. Because actually, this whole story is full of that,

isn't it? It's full of those little instances that just kind of break open our

assumptions and our expectations.

This is an interesting question that's just come through on the feed, actually.

So why do you think, so many people are willing today to accept, like, Christian

values and culture or ideas, but not the Christian— actual core Christian facts

about the resurrection that we've discussed tonight? Like, why is it that people

like that idea of, you know, cultural Christianity or its values, like, oh yeah,

love each other There's a question on the screen now. but yeah, like, don't

necessarily accept the whole resurrection thing as Dan outlined it tonight. Dan,

that was a good pass.

I first answer would be it's the easy way to do it, isn't it? Like I said at

the beginning, we can— I think we can store lots of things of the Bible as

fables. We can read it and go 'Yeah, that's just history. I don't really have to

take that in.' And we can take lots of the bits that are easier to do, the good

bits.

Be nice to people. Be nice to people. I mean, that's not that easy. Not

everyone, but yeah, generally.

Yeah, help your neighbour out. Yeah. But at some point we've got to decide, are

we going to take the tricky bits? On my Facebook feed today has been full of,

you know, got Christians putting about Easter Lots of political parties now put

in things like, 'He is risen.' Like, do you know what you've just put there? Do

you know? You've just put there a miracle. It's not some platitude. You've just

said a man was dead and he rose again. You've put that on your party. Do we

really take it? Yeah. Do we really take that in? And perhaps Perhaps they don't,

but I just think it's great. That is one of the things about this so-called, you

know, Matt talked to the great talk about, sort of the, what do you call it, the

political Christianity, Christian nationalism.

Really?

Yes, there's lots of things that aren't great about it, but it does mean that a

lot of these things invade our and media and stuff, this, he is risen, just gets

plastered everywhere. And like, what are you gonna do?

But at the same time, it's like that thing of like just making it a nice thing

to say, or like a platitude, or just like Jesus set up some nice rules to live

by. Like, they make us nicer people and, you know, more generous and be kind and

don't hurt others. And all of those things, like, don't get me wrong, none of us

would disagree with any of that. But if it's just about being a good person,

then why do you need the cross or the resurrection at all? Like, as soon as you

take that resurrection out of the Easter story, actually you've taken all the

power away. Yeah, like, if you haven't conquered sin and death, yeah, what's the

point? Like, I don't need God to just be like an all right person.

I can do that on my own. Paul later says, he says, if there's no resurrection,

then eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. Yeah, that's it. There's no, there's no

point unless there's no hope, is there?

There's like And I mean, to take you back to the dragonfly example, if you've

just lived a really good life as a nymph, you're kind to all the other nymphs

and you kind of made space for them and you lived a life of service, you know,

that would be amazing. If you just follow Jesus' teaching, yeah, that would

absolutely transform the world. But it's just the start, it's just the little

beginning. And when you get the hope then of eternity and proper kind of power

that can change whole systems and, and all the politics. It goes so much beyond

our individual kind of choices into something, well, cosmic, really. I mean,

it's just— and again, it's really hard to get your head around it unless you've

tasted a bit of it. And even then, it's like, well, there's— yes, so much more.

But I think that, that, that hope, because however much you try to follow a good

set of teaching, there's still an awful lot of rubbish and darkness that you

say, well, what about that? Yeah, how do you deal with that? And, and, and I

don't think you can read the Gospels seriously without seeing those kind of,

those little pointers that Jesus is always pointing to something far more than

just the, the moral teaching. But I think you're right, it's an easier position

to take, isn't it? because because we don't want to— I don't know, we don't want

to sound weird and say, well, people can't rise from the dead. Of course they

can. And it's like, as you say, you get into some of the more radical bits, that

is the essence.

Yeah, but also harder to start. It's kind of— it's kind of hard to get your

head around. But then also, who wants a God who fits into a nice little box that

is of our own human making? If he's that small, then I just kind of think, yeah,

but I don't I want a small God who's actually not much more powerful or

impressive than I am. Yeah, I want a God who is, you know, massive and has

created the world and is able to do anything. Like, what's the point really? We

may as well all just go home. Like, I, I don't know, I, I kind of think it's

challenging, but actually, yeah, faith is challenging, but if it's, if it's not,

you know, all-powerful, then what is the point? Like, I just— yeah. I don't

know. I think that's true. I don't want a faith that's like, oh, just like,

yeah, it's kind of a fable, but it has a good moral to it.

Yeah. And, you know, to be honest, it's much harder with the distance of time

and I mean, the cultural, the scientific development of the past 2,000 years.

It's much harder to grasp. Yeah. But again, thinking back to, you mentioned

this, those— there were, there were people, there were eyewitnesses. People

could go, they could contact them, like a lot of eyewitnesses, tell me your

story. And there would be— and those stories corroborated each other because

they were all there. And, and, and I, I think probably early on after Jesus, you

know, early church, it wasn't such a big deal. It's like, well, of course Jesus

rose from the dead because like there's all these people that saw it. It wasn't

just like one or two people. And for us looking back, it's like, oh yes, but for

them it was like, it was kind of almost taken for granted. Like, yeah, of

course.

And it's almost too easy to kind of put it down to like, oh, some made-up story

now. But actually, if you look at the facts and all the historical accounts and

how many people he appeared to and how many instances and how it's all recorded

by multiple historians and stuff, like it's not that easy to dismiss.

If you really look into the facts. I'd really recommend that, that book, both

The Case for Christ and The Case for Easter, because it's brilliant. It looks

at, it looks at all those accounts and other teachings around, you know, that

time and stuff. Yeah, it's well worth if you, if you're wondering about all

this. Yeah, yeah.

And you kind of picked up on it as well in, your talk down when you were

saying, was it like Paul that was saying, oh well, if you don't believe what I'm

saying, go down the road and ask so-and-so and so-and-so. And it's Yeah, it's

kind of implicit there in the Bible that there was a lot of eyewitnesses, and

yeah, you couldn't just be making it up.

No. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, we're in a different age, but that's still

true, isn't it? But there's still plenty of eyewitness— I mean, not so much, but

certainly kind of testimony of those that have met with Jesus and seen, got this

glimpse of like this complete transformation of way beyond their expectation of

what life could be. and you know, if, if that's of interest, seek them out.

Yeah, get in touch with Crowd Church. Yeah, yeah. That they're— although we

didn't walk physically on the planet with Jesus, you know, there's plenty,

plenty of testimony of real, real transformation. Anything else in the comments,

Anna? not really.

That's come through, I don't think. Not that I can spot. but yeah, any final

thoughts from you, Dan?

no, I think just if you've thought about anything this Easter and you thought,

well, what if it is true? Then what if it's true? What if it's true? What are

you going to do? Yeah, you've got to make a decision. You've got to dismiss it

or you've got to accept it. and we just encourage you to get, get to know this

Jesus because he's alive. There's nothing Yeah, he's alive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think for me, just, you know, if you're, if you're

feeling, even as we've been talking, as you've been listening, if you're very

feeling very limited in your expectation, maybe that's limited by your

experience to this point, or, or rationality, or, or learning, or whatever it

is. you know, if you read the accounts of Jesus, he was constantly challenging

those expectations and pushing those boundaries. And he wants to do that with

each of us now, today, exactly the same. So if you've got a limit, that your

expectations are too small, maybe just explore, maybe even pray, maybe even say,

God, just show more of yourself. What is this amazing dragonfly idea that maybe

you want to to begin to speak to me, because God will answer that prayer. And

every time, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, it's a totally transformational story, isn't

it?

It's, yeah, it's supernatural, and it will completely change your life if you

can go away, have a look at the facts, and allow that to, yeah, to change your

life as well. Ellis has put in the comments, I think the fact that the Bible

isn't just a collection of fables is a really great point. It can be so easy to

forget or overlook that. And I think, yeah, that's so true. It's so easy to just

be like, oh yeah, we've all heard the Easter story before, the cross, this,

that, the other happens. And even as Christians, like, you know, you can get

very familiar with the story, can't you? And forget that it's completely

life-changing at its core, that there's this, like, world-changing, you know,

supernatural, kind of death to life, resurrection power at the center of it. And

yeah, that's kind of what we're here for.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, oh man. Thank you so much, Dan. That was just, yeah,

fantastic, exploding the Easter story again for us. As you say, it becomes very

familiar, but that was, that was wonderful. if anything's just touched you as

you've been listening to this on recording or on the live stream, check out

Crowd Church. there's lots, lots of other talks on there that you can, you can

access There's some of those testimonies that we were talking about in What's

the Story. We have a small group that meets virtually during the week. Lots of

ways to get in touch and get involved. We're going to move now to the live

lounge this evening, so that link, it's a Google Meet, going in the chat. If you

want to just dial in, say hi, wish each other happy Easter, come and chat,

that'll be 5-10 minutes, just a bit of connection following this evening. And

we're here next Sunday, every Sunday evening, 7 o'clock on the live stream. You

are most welcome. So thank you again, Anna. Thank you, Dan, for a really rich

conversation. And happy Easter all, and see you soon. God bless. Bye-bye.