When Trying Harder Stops Working

Hello everybody and welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Sharon and I'm hosting

tonight alongside the fabulous Mike. Hi Mike.

Hi Sharon, uh, good to be here. Um, it's, um, yeah, real privilege, looking

forward to it. Um, shall I introduce Dave?

Yes.

Um, so we have Dave Connolly. You've practiced that. We have Dave Connolly, um,

speaking to us today I've known Dave for about 25 years, which is a long, long

time. Dave, how are you?

I'm really good, thanks, Mike. I'm really looking forward to sitting here this

evening.

Fantastic. And can you tell us, what is it that you're going to be speaking on

today?

Well, we're doing the series Jesus the Revolutionary. I can't say that word, by

the way.

You did it really well.

I know, I've been practicing all week, been anxious. And I'm going to speak on

probably one of my best favorite verses. I am in Matthew 11 where it says, 'Come

to me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' It's

just amazing.

Yeah, we look forward to getting into that. So again, welcome if you're one of

our regular members, whether you're part of the community already. Welcome if

you're new. If you are new, just so you know how this works, we are an online

church And as we've just said, Dave will be speaking to us on this passage. And

then unlike a church where you go to in person, we actually get to discuss it

together. So after the talk, me and Mike are gonna chat together with our

thoughts, but we also want you to join in, be part of the conversation. So as

Dave's talking, as any of us are talking, put your thoughts and comments in the

comments and we will try our best to pick up on them. Um, yeah, so Over to you,

Dave.

Wonderful. It's such a privilege to be able to come and just share, a crowd, and

then, as the folks say, just to hear from you guys what God is saying to you and

any questions that you have. And as I said, this evening, the main verse is

taken from Matthew's Gospel. Matthew 11:28. And it says, 'Come to me'—this is

Matthew 11:28

Jesus talking—'all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.'

Um, you know, if you would just take a moment to let those words just sink in,

they, you know, if you're—especially if you're feeling exhausted and weary and,

you know, come to an end of yourself, You know, these words could totally— not

my words, these words, this Scripture— could totally change your life this

evening, or whenever you're watching this. We live in a generation, we live in a

time where people are just exhausted. It's like we live in a culture of hustle,

and that seems to be a buzzword with everybody I'm talking to. Everything's a

hustle. I don't really understand what it means. Or busyness or productivity,

achievements, um, constant pressure, whether it be at work or at home. And you

know, the result for some folks, maybe you, is that you're suffering from

burnout. And you know, for some people, they use burnout almost as a badge of

honor. And hopefully this evening we can actually address that And it's a need

that's been created in you. It's like a wound, you know, being autistic is a

wound. It's not a positive thing. And hopefully we'll just be able to see some

hope come into our lives and into our minds and invite the Holy Spirit to come

and speak to us. You know, this passage, it's very clear. It's an opposite

message to what we hear in what I would call the world. And the world is

relentless, you know, guys, on saying work harder, try harder, push further,

don't slow down, keep improving yourself. As if you've been around any period of

time, self-improvement is very limited, you know. It's when God is at work in

us, and we call that transformation, that real change comes. Sadly, some of

these expectations have crept into church, and you may be aware of them if

you've been around church any period of time. There's far too many Christians

going about their day and they're actually exhausted, emotionally drained,

mentally overwhelmed. They're trying to serve God whilst running on empty. Now,

coming here this evening, um, I had to call in the petrol station because, um,

yesterday morning, um, the fuel light was on and I realized it's been on for a

couple of days. So this evening as I was driving, I think, am I going to get

here or I'm going to break down on the motorway? Am I going to have to ring Matt

to come and get me, rescue me? But you know, again, again, yeah. But it's like

we almost get used to running on empty and we're not designed to run on empty.

We don't need to run on empty because God wants to fill us, and not just fill

us, but fill us to overflowing so others receive the goodness of what he's doing

in our lives. We learn to stay busy. Now sometimes I say, 'Well, I'm busy for

God.' And I would say to you, you might want to just check that out because

sometimes when we think we're busy for God, we're just busy about stuff. And

we've put God down somewhere, and it's a bit like saying, 'Holy Spirit, you can

have today off. I've got this covered.' We need to stay fresh and we need to

stay focused. We need to know why we do what we do. And this verse where it

says, 'Come to me,' that is an invitation. And who's it to? It's an invitation

to all. Come to who? Come to Jesus. Don't come to a method. Don't come to— and

we're not even saying come to church. We're saying, 'Come to Jesus.' He's the

one you need to come to and sit at His feet and receive from Him. And He goes on

to say, 'And I will— He will give you rest.' And, you know, you can count on His

word because He always honors His word. You know, there's a couple of things

Jesus and God can't do. They can't lie and they can't fail. There's a clear

promise. You come, That invitation to come requires a movement. It requires us

to move from where we are to where he is in our thinking, in our heart, in our

minds, whatever terminology you use. There needs to be a move or a surrender. I

like to say I have to align myself to God and what God is saying. That's, that's

for me, that's the key thing. I just want to emphasize, when he says come, he's

not saying come and join a club or come and join this group or come in. He's

saying 'Come.' We're invited into relationship, right into the presence of God.

And that's the difference about knowing somebody and knowing about somebody. He

doesn't want you just to be a good person. He wants you to find a rest. He

doesn't want you to do anything for Him. Okay, hear that. He wants to do

something in you that what you live after that just speaks of His goodness. Our

lives become a testimony, a living story of God's goodness. You know, and you

might be thinking, 'Oh, that's all good, you know, for Jesus, perfect, you know,

Son of God, da da da, you know, or it's okay for you because you're this or

you're that.' Let me just tell you, Jesus himself who spoke these words, he

knew. Jesus knew what it was to face rejection. As we read through those gospel

stories, Jesus They rejected him with a passion. They criticized him with a

passion. You know, they could celebrate him and then criticize him in the same

breath. He lived under constant scrutiny. He was rejected by whole cities.

Religious leaders, Luther, pulled their notes together to accuse him and to trap

him. Jesus knew. I love this, you know, that He knew what it was to be tired. He

knew what it was to be hungry. He knew what it was to be busy. Because we hear

that He comes aside. I love the fact that He knew what it was to be hungry. The

amount of food that is in the New Testament that we read about. And it's just to

show His humanity. So He knows what He's talking about. We see Jesus comes

aside. Why? To sleep. Well, partly, but also to be in the presence of God. When

we get busy and overwhelmed, where do we go? And you know, I just want to say,

many of us go to the wrong places when we need just to come aside and seek His

face. The story goes on and it talks about being wary. And I think we could

probably have 20 different versions of what wary means, but let me tell you what

Jesus meant. When Jesus uses the word 'wary,' he means more than being tired.

You know, I was with some guys a few weeks ago, and they were talking about how

tired they were. And I'm like, 'I don't understand what you're saying.' And

they're saying, 'We're tired. We're tired with work.' And I'm like, 'Yeah, and

you're supposed to be.' You know, in 21st century living, it's like everything's

got to be a buzz. You know, but when you work hard and you give yourself, it's

natural that you are tired. You are supposed to be. I don't know if that makes

sense, you know. I mean, people think that they have to enjoy everything that is

going on in their life. It's like, it is my right to be happy. Somebody said

this to me yesterday, and I'm like, where do you get that from? Because you

won't find that in the Bible. That's your flesh that's telling you you have the

right. It's not about our rights, it's about our obedience and our

responsibility. When Jesus talks about the word weary, he's speaking about more

than being tired. He's speaking about— let me give you a list of things— deep

exhaustion. Um, I don't know if this is even a real phrase, but it's one I used

recently. Soul fatigue, you know. And I know what it is like to be fatigued. You

know, and people say, 'Well, you're just a bit fatigued,' and they write it off.

And I'm thinking, 'Only you don't know. Oh, you've obviously never been

fatigued.' Um, emotional depletion, you know, it's just like somebody's come

along to your petrol tank. Like, I've just filled up, as I've said. You come

along and it's like somebody put a screwdriver into the tank. It will drain

rapidly. Did I fill it up? Yes, I did, but I've got a hole in it and I need to

pay attention to that damage. It's about carrying burdens, and life can be

tough. You can be doing all the right things as a Christian with all the right

people and life be challenging. But you know, we've raised so many people in

church to do the Star Trek thing. Every time a difficulty comes along, it's

like, 'God, get me out of this.' That's why we have so many Christians who are

superficial. There's no real depth because every time God is trying to

strengthen them, and establish them in something. They're asking for an exit

rather than standing and taking their ground and seeing God come in power and in

might. And you know, I'm not— I'm just saying, you know, um, if you read

Scripture, try reading the book of Acts, my friends. I tell you, you know, the

church isn't doing a whole lot until persecution comes. Then it scatters, and

the church grows phenomenally. It doesn't happen in times of, um, you know,

where everything is good. And, um, I just— I'm talking about seasons here, I'm

not talking about a lifetime where, you know, um, we're on, you know, our backs

against the wall, as it were. Um, so, you know, this evening, you know, many of

you might be in that place where you're feeling weary, tired, worn out, and It's

not necessarily because you've done anything wrong. It's just life. It is just a

part of life, you know. But there's also all these voices talking to us, and

they're saying, well, the answer to this is more success, you know, achieve

more, more productivity, more this, more that. And God's saying it's not. It's a

case of rest, resting in him. It's not about our performance, not about trying

to appear to be more spiritual, or trying to keep everybody happy, or trying to

earn— listen to this— it's not about trying to earn what Jesus has already

freely given to each of us. That's called his grace. He says, 'Come to me.'

Requires movement. Come to him. This story goes on, and, um, I'm just going to

try and draw this into a bit of a close here, but this is a really important

piece. He says, take my yoke upon you. Take my yoke upon you. Don't just look at

it and know what it's for. Take it upon you and learn from me. It's very hard to

learn if you spend your life mourning and complaining. Take my yoke upon you and

learn from me. In the first century church, in that first century culture, a

yoke was a wooden farming, um, implement. And the one I'm thinking of is one

that is created for two oxen, um, and a well-made yoke Um, because you wouldn't

want to put rubbish on your ox because you damage them, you know, they're of

value to you. Um, they would be made specifically and for a purpose and for two

oxen, and one of them would be a bigger, older, mature ox. And then they put in—

I don't know what a young ox is called— anyway, you get a young one and you put

it in and You know, it's like, that sounds like discipleship. Bingo! Oh, can you

say bingo on Sunday? That's right, you've got it. That's what it is. It's

walking, you're connected. And what happens, you know, that young ox comes in

and thinks he knows everything. You know, he's saying, you're looking a bit old,

you're looking a bit pasty, you know. And all that happens is it's not long

before that young ox has got a sore neck. Because it's pulling and it's trying

to get its own way and trying to, you know, use its own strength. The big old ox

who's been a bit wiser because he was a young ox— I don't know if my

illustrations aren't very good, just go with the flow, you know. I'm sure you've

never been here, so— but you know, sometimes we pull and we pull against God

rather than walk with him, you know, using the discipleship concept. We when you

walk with somebody you can learn so much, but it's no good walking without

learning. I know for a number of years I used to meet with a number of men and

we used to have our discipleship time and that wasn't them coming and listening

to me give my Bible study. I would turn up and one year I gave Matt and the

guys, I gave them a diary and they're like, 'We don't journal.' I'm like, 'Well,

learn.' Because sometimes you just got to, if you're hungry, you just got to do

it, aye. And I remember one guy, a guy called Danny, was phenomenal. And Danny

always used to bring his diary, and I used to say to Danny, what's God saying to

you, Dan? That's discipleship. What's God saying to you, Dan? What do you do

with that? How has that impacted your life? And it was wonderful. You know,

that's what older, bigger oxes do. They get the best out of the younger ox by

walking with them. And then we can move it to Jesus. We need to know what it is

to walk with Him. Discipleship and the Christian life is about walking with

Jesus, following Him, listening to Him, learning from Him. How are you with

learning? Are you at the place? I'm sure you're not. This bit is obviously for

another group who will share this with us on stage. Because not everybody wants

to learn. We live in a society where everybody knows everything, and I want to

be a learner. You know, when I read that, um, about those oxes, you know what I

see in that little story? I see an amazing picture of the grace of God, that

grace of God that is freely given to me and is freely given to you. We're not

supposed to carry all this stuff on our own. Wherever God calls you and I to be,

he gives us the appropriate grace to be able to walk in it. It may not be

pleasant, but he is with us, always with us. You know, and sadly, many of us in

difficult times, and we were carrying stuff, we turn to religion or church or,

or to programs. Just turn to Jesus, turn to his word. Listen to his word. See

what his word has got to say to you in this season. My friends, you need to

really grab a hold of— don't live a life of pressure without knowing the grace

of God. Don't be busy with activity without knowing intimacy with God. Don't

settle for performance, doing everything and doing it well, without encountering

the presence of God, those things will totally transform your life. You know, we

are— God is not trying to crush you and destroy you. He's trying to raise you up

as a man and a woman of God who is walking with him. We're talking about

seasons. Acts 3:19 says this, it talks about times of refreshing shall come.

Acts 3:19

From the presence of the Lord. That's where this refreshing comes. It flows from

the presence of God. It's not from a program, it's from him. You're not meant to

live day by day dry and barren. You're called to walk with him and he meets our

needs. Let me close with a couple of phrases. You don't have to do this on your

own. It's great that we're able to fellowship with each other, whether we're

around this table or whether we're seeing each other during the week. You know,

when we fellowship with each other, we want to operate in truth and reality and

in faith. We need to be able to share where we are and what we're walking

through. And honestly, you know, don't just say you'll pray for somebody. Pray!

If somebody's sharing their heart and their situation for you, you know, I would

say, 'Can I say a wee prayer for you?' And they may be thinking that I'm going

to go away and do that, but I'm going to be doing it there and then. And you may

say, 'Oh, you might embarrass them.' Yeah, they may just encounter God as well,

so I'll risk that, you know, because I want them to encounter God. Not just my

good thoughts, etc. So in closing, let me say this. Galatians 6:2 talks about us

Galatians 6:2

bearing one another's burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ. Listen, my

friend, I want to say this as of the word of God. He says, come to me. Don't try

and fix yourself up before you come. 'Come weary, come burdened, come exhausted,

come overwhelmed.' You can start— you can throw your own in here. I'm sure you

could add to that list. 'Come angry, but come.' But that requires movement on

your part, my friend. And Jesus says, and from Psalm 55:22, 'Cast your burdens

Psalms 55:22

on the Lord.' That's Psalm 55:22. You know, um, we can't earn rest. It's a gift.

Psalms 55:22

We just have to receive it. And my prayer for each of us is that we will know

what it is to come and align our lives to the Word of God. Don't ask God for a

word. It's right there in the Word. I want to encourage you, get into his Word

and stand on the Word of God. Ask somebody to go through it with you. Like that

Ethiopian eunuch, stuck on the backside of a desert, but God had gone before him

and he had called Philip to track him. Philip moved away from a revival town to

the backside of a desert where he bumps into an Ethiopian who sat in his chariot

reading his Scripture. And Philip said to him, 'Do you know what you're

reading?' And he said, 'How can I unless somebody tells me?' 'Let's do that.'

You know, we're not called to be experts, we're called to be followers and

lovers of Jesus. And when you're full of him, it's hard to contain him. You just

want to let him overflow. Ooh!

I think that's the Lord saying stop. Wow, it's great that you've got such a

direct line by phone to the good Lord. Thanks for that. Before we get into the

discussion, I just want to say hi to the people in the comments, although, um,

as Matt's, um, comment suggests, we've kind of got two streams going on, a

vertical and a horizontal. Don't really get it, and I can only actually see one

of them, so I'm relying on Matt to kind of tell me who else is around. Thank

you. So all at the moment I can see Alicia. Hi, and Matt. And I think— are you

sending me other bits through? Yes. Okay, cool. Uh, oh, we've got Alice as well.

I'm sure there are others out there that I'm not aware of yet, but hi, welcome.

We will try and pick up your comments as we go. So let's get into discussion. So

I actually wanted to start off because, Dave, you— well, started off with a

question When you first started your talk, Dave, you mentioned about burnout. So

I just wanted to ask you guys whether you've experienced burnout, and if so,

why? What led up to it?

Well, I can answer in the affirmative. Yes, I've experienced burnout. So I was a

secondary school teacher for 15 years. Say no more. Say no more. I found that I

ended up doing too much, taking on too much, too much work, and eventually,

yeah, started getting unwell. And I, you know, only because of the grace of God,

and the very small amount of faith that I had and the community of people who

were around me encouraged me to leave, basically, and to do something else. And

I did that, and so I left, and, you know, I now work for myself. I'm now a

gardener. But I know, you know, I remember having Matti just like, just stressed

and just sad and just not knowing, you know, feeling trapped and all of those

things and feeling responsible and yeah, just, just, it was a really hard time,

really difficult. And, you know, just so, so grateful to God for walking through

it with me, carrying me through, and, you know, bringing me out the other side.

Yeah, definitely, 100%. Cool. What about you, Dave?

Yeah, I think I, um, probably realized what was coming my way. So before it

really crunched into my life, I just became aware of why I was feeling, you

know, having these, like, say, symptoms or signs. And, um, it was because of my

pride. 'You know, I was very blessed, I was going here, I was doing this, da da

da da.' But I was in automatic pilot. You know, I wasn't tuned in, I wasn't— it

was too much about me, really. And it was about pride and when I seen what was

coming, I'll be honest, you know, I sat there and wept. And I just said, 'Thank

you, God,' I just became really aware of where that could have led to. And

there's a book called 'Running on Empty' and it's a book that Julie gives or

recommends to lots of people. And it's about a pastor of a huge church and

everything's great in his life, blah blah blah. And he doesn't realize that he's

running on empty until he finds himself a little bit where you were, sat on on

the pavement one day, wondering, where am I? Why am I here? Yeah. You know, and,

um, but he was damaged. I have to say, I'm so thankful that, you know, God

convicted me of my pride. Otherwise, I think I could have escalated into being a

boro. You know, I do want to say that it was my pride. It wasn't God trying to

teach me something. It was just me being unteachable and self-sufficient.

Yeah, I've definitely experienced it as well, and I think for me it was a

similar scenario, but of where I think I'd taken something that was good from

God's Word and twisted it. So that whole thing of, you know, the Bible talks

about us partnering with God and seeing— helping see his kingdom come and

reaching you know, helping people who are really lost or really struggling. Um,

but somehow I twisted that into it's all my responsibility, like the whole

world. And it's like, you're never finished with that job, are you? So it's

like, I can't take time off because there's all these people out here who need

to hear. And it honestly got to the point of just being totally exhausted. But

again, it's like that underneath, um, it's the underneath driver Yeah, so it's

not necessarily the— for me, not the external situation, it was all the

internal. And I think sometimes a lot of our burnout can be from the internal

drivers, can't it? Like you've said, like the pressure to perform, or, um, you

know, you've got to be a high achiever, or, um, yeah, yeah.

We're not immune from that, are we, in church? No, no, no.

I, um, one of the verses that that helped me see where I was. It was in the book

of Jonah, and it was in the first chapter. And the book of Jonah, I'm not gonna

describe it perfectly, but Jonah ends up in the boat, running away from God,

ends up in the boat, and the sailors quickly establish that the problem here is

that the creator of the universe, the God who Jonah worships, 'Who is in control

of everything, the wind, the waves, the water, the sea, has brought this storm

in order to punish Jonah.' And Jonah said to them, 'Look, the answer to this is

to throw me over.' So they know, they've drawn the lots, they know it's Jonah,

they know it's about God, all of that. And the decision that they make, it says

in Jonah 1, I think it's Verse 13, it says, knowing all of this, they tried even

harder to row, and they couldn't do it. So knowing exactly what the situation

was that they were in, that this was the Creator of the universe who caused

this, they decided that what we need to do here is try even harder. And I just

thought, That is me right here, right now. What I'm trying to do is work is

getting harder and I've just got to work harder and harder and harder. And it

was just really convicting that, you know, it was all about pride. It was all

about, I can do this. I can get myself out of this. You know, I got myself to

this position, I can get myself out of it. And I think one of the things with

this burnout is that what— by the time you get to that place, because you've

believed for so long that this is all about you, you've, you've isolated

yourself from people who are around you, and you've, you've pushed away any help

that you want because you're so convinced that, that it's all about you. And so,

you know, I think that's like— it almost compounds the problem, doesn't it?

Because you're not then around people who you can be vulnerable with, who you

can say, you know, I'm not doing well, and, and, and talk to and things like

that. And just compounds the problem, doesn't it? True.

Um, yeah, but talking of help, Ellis has put in the comments, um, is asking for

advice. So he says, I find it can be difficult when you're asking God to take

the lead, as it were, but it doesn't feel like he's doing it. Any advice?

Great question, I think. Great question. I would, for me in that situation, I

ask the question and I'm just in the Word of God, you know, and I expect, you

know, people hear from God in lots of different ways. For me, God will never

speak beyond his Word. Whatever, you know, people say, 'God said this,' it won't

be contrary to what you'll find in the Word of God. And I think, you know, the

key thing to moving ahead is just to open up the Word of God. Ask God to speak

to you. Ask God to come into your situation. Ask God to come and bring rest.

Because, you know, when our lives are a bit chaotic and we're stressed and we've

got anxiety, it's very hard to hear him because you've got all this background

noise. You know, some of it is self-induced, some of it's by other people, some

of it is circumstantial. But I would really encourage everybody, you know, as

you develop your devotional life in the Word and in prayer, God speaks. You

start thinking, 'Hmm, I think God just spoke to me,' you know, either through

his Word or it might be, you know, through pictures or whatever it is, however

you hear from God. But I think we have to lose the McDonald's thing when we

pray. Drive around to the next window. That's just fast food, and God doesn't

want us— or dare I say junk food, if you're allowed to. You know, God wants to

do something significant in our lives, and he wants you to be part of the

process.

Yeah, I think I'd pick up on that as well, because, Dave, you used the

illustration of the oxen with the yoke that goes across them, and that's

definitely, you You know, I really like that imagery, but the imagery is also to

do with rabbis that— the different rabbis of the time had the teaching which was

also called the yoke. I guess it was to do with the oxen, wasn't it? Because

it's— but so the teaching is the yoke. And so Jesus is saying that my teaching

is— what was the words? Uh, uh, yes, he says like, take my yoke, take my

teaching on you. 'Learn from me because I'm gentle and humble in heart, and

through that you'll find rest.' So again, yeah, I totally agree with Dave that

it is, it's this process of, um, over time learning from Jesus, like from his

teaching in the word, but the Spirit bringing life to that. And over time, that

changes how you view everything. Definitely changed for me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about you? Well, I think it If my memory is so poor, but,

um, I think the, like, the question about, you know, waiting for God's leading.

I think one of the things, uh, a guy who I, uh, was discipled by a long, long

time ago, guy called Gareth Cowles, um, star guy who we all know and love, um,

he said to me right at the start when he first started getting to know me, he

said, Mike— I wrote it down here— what he said, don't run ahead of God, and you

need to walk with him. And he could see in me straight away there was a tendency

for me to run ahead and to get impatient and to run ahead and get into pride and

all of that. And he just, you know, right from the beginning, almost the first

the first time he met me, he was like, 'Mike, you need to not run ahead of God.

You need to walk with him.' And I think when you're waiting for God to lead you,

you know, just wait. You are, you are in the right place and you just need to

wait. And sometimes it's in that waiting that you learn that this isn't about

you.

Yes. And it, it's being part of that process. Like Kowalski, as we fondly know

him as, you know, I'm sure my And when he was saying this to you, you could

almost see those things in him, him working those things out in his own life.

Yeah, yeah, you know, and learning that discipline because we're not having to

do it on our own. We are to learn from each other. The rabbi stuff, really,

though, that illustration— we live in an individualistic society where

everything's about me and mine and da da da. That doesn't work with the rabbi

thing. You know, you go and you walk with him. And the reality is, um, is that,

you know, if you— the rabbi picked you, you didn't pick your rabbi. Yeah. And

you would— he would pick you and you would start to walk with him and live with

him. And what would happen is you only shared what you learned from him, you

know, and you would And this always gets a negative thing, but you hear what I'm

saying? You mimic your rabbi. Yeah. You know, in the good things. So you would

have picked things up from Kowsy. Yeah. That you think, I really learned a whole

lot. You know, my life's been so blessed by being around people I've learned

from, you know. And it's that rabbi thing, humbling yourself to learn. Yeah.

We're, you know, 21st century is we know everything. Yeah. Who are you to tell

me that? Why should I be listening to you? Well, that's probably pride, and

we've used that word quite a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. On a slightly funnier side on that one, so one of our oldest

sons had done quite a lot of editing for a lot of Matt's podcasts and stuff, my

husband's podcast, his dad, and it got to the point where he could like do a

really good imitation because he'd listened to so much stuff that he could walk

like him, talk like him, everything. But yeah, so it's kind of like that only on

a deeper level.

But it really is that. Yeah, you know, they would have dressed together. If you

watch The Chosen—

I'm not doing a podcast for 2 years, just—

he's doing them for you. You think you're happy, but you are. But you know, if

you've watched The Chosen, and I haven't seen all of them, and I know it's a

dramatization, I do love it, but you, you pick up these things where they just

embody their rabbi. Yeah. You know, and it's just beautiful to see.

It's a great visual, isn't it, of how it works.

There's no, there's no room for self-will. You know, I feel really blessed to

live in the 21st century, but I'm just aware there's so many people wanting to

do it their way, etc., rather than just saying, I'm following Jesus, I don't

want to do the Jesus way. Yeah.

And that's costly. Got a few comments from Alicia. She said this 'Talk is

exactly what I need at present.' That's great, fabulous. Yeah, brilliant. Um,

she also said, 'Burnout for me is almost always precipitated by overcommitting.

I often misjudge what I can do in my waking hours, and when something seems like

a worthy endeavor, I can be too hasty to say yes.' I think a lot of us can

relate to that one. Um, and also she says, 'I'm most successful when I take the

time to pray about what's being asked of me first instead of being afraid of

offending someone by asking them to wait. Those who love me tend to be patient.

All great thoughts. Yeah, fabulous. Wonderful. On the back of that, I just

wondered, have you got any, um, examples of where— like, specific examples of

where getting into God's teaching, like, into Jesus' teaching, has lifted that

kind of burden, given you that rest, given you that freedom, as it were?

Well, I am— me and another friend of mine, I've only got two, a guy called Joe

Evans, introduced me to a book called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, a book

called Brilliant, book by John Mark Comer, a really good book. And he talks

about lots of things, but one of the things that he talks about is The Need to

Sabbath. And so I suppose the way John Mark Comer talks about it in this book

is, is it's, it's really important for us as human beings to do what our Creator

tells us to do. And he knows how we work best, and he knows that we work best

when we're submitted to him. And so by doing this Sabbath thing, which is, you

know, for those who don't know, it's just taking one day in your week and

choosing to not work for the whole of that day. And, you know, and to take that

time out. And it's just as much to train your imagination to say, I am not my

own provider. It is God who provides for me, and I, in faith, I'm going to not

work for this day, and I'm going to trust that God is going to provide for me.

And I think, you know, over time— and it has taken time— doing that practice,

um, has helped to remind myself each week that I'm not in in control. Um, and

just also just to like, yeah, just to train my imagination. I suppose it's the

same with, with when we take the bread and the wine, isn't it? It's that

constant retraining of our imagination. That's one thing that I found quite

helpful.

It's great to have that day to actually enjoy the stuff that we do have that

we've been blessed with, isn't it? Because sometimes we can be so busy, like, on

to the next thing that we don't stop and just go, 'Oh yeah, thank you.' That's

such a wonderful book.

Um, John Mark Comer's great. Being a bit older than my— um, John Mark Comer's

discipler is a guy called Dallas Willard. All right. And he is just— he died a

couple of years ago, but what John Mark has done, he— it's the same teaching as

Dallas, so literally, but he has brought a 21st century view of it. And, and

it's a separate piece of work, but I mean, I've compared them, they are exactly

the same. And, and that doesn't take anything away. Yeah, it just shows you the

value of mentoring, or, you know, the rabbi thing. John Mark Coleman is

phenomenal, it's far too clever for me. Um, Dallas Wheelhouse was psychology,

um, I can't remember what he did, but you know But it highlights this thing

about we're not God. Yeah, yeah. Removing ourselves from being God in our own

lives. Yeah.

John Mark Comer has also written a book called Practicing the Way, which has got

the bits about— he starts off talking about the rabbi and learning from the

rabbi. So also a really good book if you want to kind of— yeah, might be a great

place, Alice, for, for you as well to start with that. But same question to you,

Dave, which was, is there a specific teaching of Jesus that, as you followed it,

has brought that freedom and that rest for your soul?

Yeah, I am— I need to give it context that a few years ago I got really sick

and, um, and I haven't been healed of that yet. Um, but what it means is that I

have horrendous insomnia. And, you know, I had a whole season lying in bed

going, 'Ahh,' did everything But then I decided I would get up and I would start

to pray and I would start to resource, you know, for a big chunk, you know, 2,

3, 4 hours an evening. Mostly that's what I do. And it's just the Word for me

and prayer, the importance. Like, I am very fortunate, you know, I regularly go

away for the day just to pray. I regularly, maybe once a term, go away for 2 to

3 days just to pray. But this doesn't come. This will hinder you hearing from

God. This honestly will rob your time, will distract you. And I love the phone,

but again, John Mark— I don't know which book it's in, but he's got a lot of

stuff that he says about getting this distraction out of your life. But for me,

it's Just slowly, just, God, what are you saying through your word? I'm wanting

to take that on board. And I, for me, I see a lot of people during the week, if

I'm not reading the word of God, I have nothing to say. Because they certainly

don't need to know my personal wisdom, that's for sure. Yeah. You know, but I

want to operate out of rest. Not pressure, because I hear lots of great things

and I hear some quite disturbing things. But when rest, it's about, it's about

God. They need to hear, they don't need to hear from me.

Yeah, that's great. Alicia says, 'The Sabbath really is a gift. I sometimes

don't realize how overloaded my mind has gotten until I reach the one day where

I get to let it all go.' Yeah, yeah, that's great. It's also a great time to

actually, like, if we are busy because some people actually, you know, the jobs

are really busy, aren't they? And to have that time just to actually see what's

going on and like a restock each week and just go, yeah, okay, process all this.

Yeah. I think I've got so many examples from my own life about— I think it's

just, it's the more I get into God's Word, it's like the more freedom and rest

that you find. I think a big one is to do around identity because there's so

much about that at the moment, isn't there? There's that— I think in the world

there's that sense of you have to make your own identity, which is a lot of

pressure to put on someone, because then you always have to be— feel like you've

got to be better than someone, or at least as good as, or it's almost like a

competition. Whereas when you know who God's made you, that you are made, that

you are adopted into his family, that you're loved not because of anything

you've done but just because he's made you and he's got a purpose for you, it's

like okay, you can let go of all that. Yeah. And you can like live out of that

place of rest and then do what you're called to do from that, rather than, yeah,

trying to grasp some sort of sense of identity or to be as important as someone

else. Or— and it also means that you can do any type of job without, um, needing

to be at the top, you know, to be seen as worthwhile or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

That makes sense. Yeah, that's great. Okay, I'm just aware of the time. Um,

yeah, any last thoughts from either of you?

I remember I, um, my brother works in a barber's, um, and, um, with Benjamin

Hoffwaite in Liverpool. And, um, on the wall they used to have that verse,

didn't they? They used to have it backwards so that when you were looking in the

mirror you could see see it behind you and it had that, that verse, the, the

Matthew 11:28. Um, you know, I do always remember going in and looking in the

Matthew 11:28

mirror and reading it, and it's just such a powerful verse. I think that's like

one of my reflections, just it's just good to hear that verse again and to hear

that, you know, spoken over me. I know, um, I think what you were saying about

identity is really key and really because it's so hard to build your own

identity. And I know, like, when I was teaching, you know, people would— they

wouldn't say they were boasting about their busyness, but they were proud of the

fact that they would say to you, 'Oh, I'm just so busy, just so busy.' And it

felt like a boast. It was like, 'I'm busy because, and therefore, I am

important, and therefore I am someone.' And if you're not busy and stressed and

out of your mind, then it's because nobody's trusted you with enough work to do.

And, and you— and I bought into that, you know, I bought into that. And I was

keen to say to people, oh yeah, just really busy, until I got burnt out. And

then I was like, well, that didn't work well for me.

Yeah, but we weren't like a bad Giovanna. Yeah, yeah. You know, um, and I think

that the whole thing about I am being busy. I've had so many conversations with

people who are busy and doing X, Y, and Z, and not necessarily bad things, but

they're still waking up at 2 o'clock in the morning, 3 o'clock in the morning

with a void. And, um, you know, you said about identity, knowing that there's—

I'm not gonna shape me into my identity. Um, you know, God's the one, he's our

creator. And I remember when we first moved into the tab, we went downstairs and

there's a kiln and there's a potter's wheel and everything. And again, I don't

know anything about anything, but I just, I'm gonna think, you know, I wonder

how you do this, because all the supplies were there. I wasn't brave enough to

have a go, but what I do know is simply this, that when the potter gets his

clay, the clay has to be wet and he has to stay wet. To be shaped and moulded.

When the potter— I get technical now— throws the clay onto the wheel, he knows

what he's looking to shape and form. He's not making a watchamacallit or a

thingymabob. He's making a vase or whatever else you want, cup or saucer,

whatever it is. But he's not making a hope and see or a hope so or a thingymabob

or watchamacallit. He knows what he's looking to shape and to form. And then

he'll do that, and he may even have to reshape it, and then he'll do all the

other bits on the process, which I don't know, um, besides going to a very hot

oven. Um, it's his hands on us. That's how our identity is formed. Yeah, not by

our efforts.

It's making me chuckle. You're talking about pottery because me, a few years

ago, me and my daughter Zoe went and did a, like, a one-lesson pottery thing

with just She's— and mine was definitely a wait-and-see. And we never actually

got around to picking them up, and we were just like, was it pride? Possibly.

Yeah. So I'm still waiting to see. But anyway, yeah, I've forgotten what I was

going to say now.

Well, I've just had another thought come into my head, which is I think my

favorite verse in the Bible is, um, in Romans 8, and it says that, uh, verse 29,

and I'm going to paraphrase, but it basically says that God is changing everyone

who, who loves him, calls him Lord, into the likeness of Jesus. Um, and I just

think, you know, that's, that's his purpose in your life, is to mold you and to

morph you into the likeness of Jesus. And, you know, I I would just say, you

know, don't be like the sailors in the story about Jonah. It's not about you

trying harder. Um, you are the clay, um, your job is just to, to pick the sails

up and jump overboard and, and, and just let God, um, be God. And yeah, that's,

that's it.

That sounds like a great thought to finish on. I think, um, I think we could

like just keep rolling on, but I'm aware of time, and we do want to try and

connect with you in Live Lounge after. Um, it's just— Live Lounge is just where

we— it's very informal chat, just for a few minutes, just so we can connect a

bit more. Um, and hopefully the link will come up in the screen that you can

join us. Lovely, fabulous. Yeah, so yeah, do come and join us, come and say hi,

have a quick chat. It'd be great to meet you. So, um, I I can't actually

remember what's happening next week. Uh, just looking at my husband for

inspiration. Oh, he's going to— he's looking it up. It's going to be good. It's

going to be fabulous. Speaking. Okay, we've got Aid speaking, carrying on in the

series of Jesus— what was it? Jesus the Revolutionary.

So well. I just wanted Dave to say it.

Okay.

No amount of success can fill the place that belonging was meant to fill.

Uh-huh. Okay, so in case, in case you didn't hear that, no amount of success can

fill the place that belonging was meant to. Sure, that's very good. Anyway, very

good. Great. Um, thanks for joining us tonight. I'm going to say goodbye now and

hope to see you in Live Lounge.