Why God Doesn't Just Fix It

Well, good evening. Welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Matt Edmundson. Uh, I've

got a wonky microphone, I've just realized. Uh, it's great to be with you, uh,

here on Crowd this evening. Very warm welcome to you wherever you are watching,

uh, from around the world. Say hi in the comments, be great to hear from you. In

the studio tonight we have beside me They're beautiful, talented. Mike.

Say again.

Mike.

Well, yeah, we've got Mike and Jen, both beautiful and both talented. So to my

left is Jen. How are we doing?

Hello, I'm very well, thank you. Yeah, good.

Yeah. Good. And to my right is Mike.

Hello there.

Great to meet you.

Oh, hang on.

Try that again, Mike. There we go.

Hello. Great to be there. Be here.

Yeah, great to be.

Um, yeah, it is great to be here. We are excited. Um, yeah, we're going to be

talking about John 11 today, uh, about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. And

this has been a talk that I have been preparing— very difficult. I found it very

hard to prepare this talk. Um, but looking forward to it. Should be good.

Indeed.

And as if by magic, he's back in the room.

Sorry about that. We were changing some cables over because there was a bit of a

buzz again. And apparently my, I headbutted the cameras when I changed the

cables. So Mike wasn't on screen then, but he's back now. A very, very warm

welcome to you. Yeah, and Mike has been working hard on this message. So we're

going to get into it. Let me light up YouTube. Jen, how's your week been?

Yeah, it's been a good week. Thank you.

Are you sure?

Yeah. My son's had food poisoning. So that hasn't been great. But yeah, other

than that, we've all been fine.

Thank you. Good. Oh, let me just delete the sounds there.

Yes.

Uh, so good evening, Alicia. Good evening, Ellis. Sharon's in the comments, um,

so she'll be looking after your comments. Now we've got Zoe on tech, uh, and

we've got Roz in the chat as well. Roz, how you doing? Hope you're feeling

better. Yeah, um, yeah, I hope you're feeling better. Uh, but yeah, so without

further— it just goes to— actually, let me just do housekeeping first. Yeah, I

did. Sorry, Alice, I thought I said hello. Uh, Sharon, shouting at me. So if you

are watching Crowd and it's your first time with us, uh, basically we do church

online. Uh, Mike's going to give us a talk. He's got his Bible out, he's got his

notes out and everything. After the talk, we have Conversation Street where we

kind of— we go to your comments and we go to the questions, although I think

you're doing it backwards tonight.

A little bit backwards. Yeah.

So we're going to—

Yeah.

No idea what this is going to look like. Uh, so yeah, we're going to go to

Conversation Street at some point. Mike will tell us when. Um, so whatever

questions you have, throw them in the comments, uh, whatever comments you've

got, any stories you want to share, any encouragements you want to bring to

anybody else that's watching, then please share them in the comments on YouTube

and, uh, I will see them. I've got them on my computer in front of me. Um, and

so yeah, it'd be great to hear from you. Without further ado, do you need any

further instruction? The man, the myth, the legend.

No, that's fine.

Over to you, Mike.

Great. Well, it is lovely to be here, and, um, it has been a tough message to be

thinking about meditating on, but, but I've been really excited be back here and

to be talking to you about, about Jesus. And that's what we're gonna do today.

So, um, as Matt said, we're gonna do a little bit back to front. But what all I

want to do is the questions that we could maybe think about in Conversation

Street. I just wanted to bring them up now so they can be in your mind as I'm

going through, um, this talk. So the questions are— there's 4 questions and I

just want you to be thinking about these as we go through. So the first one, um,

is: has anyone said anything to, uh, or said something to comfort you that has

made things worse? Okay, so that's one question. Um, so today we're going to be

looking at Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, and we're going to be looking at

how Jesus, um, deals with Martha and Mary's grief and, and how he grieves as

well. So we're going to be looking at a little bit of that and a little bit of

disappointment. And so, so yeah, that's the first question. Has anyone said

anything that has made things worse when they were trying to comfort you? Uh,

second question: why do you think we are so uncomfortable with sadness? Um,

that's the second question for you to think about. What does this story tell us

about how God views our pain? And then the final one: is there grief in your

life um, that you have never given yourself permission to feel. Um, and if that

is the case, I just want you to think about that, um, as we're looking at this

story. And so this story, um, is found in the New Testament, um, which is the

part of the Bible that focuses on Jesus and the early church. And it's found in

the book, the eyewitness account of John, and chapter 11. And it's actually

entitled The Raising of Lazarus. Now, that title wasn't in the Bible when it was

first wrote, and I think there would be much better titles for this particular

chapter because as I've looked at it, it's less about the raising of Lazarus and

more about Jesus's connection with the people who were grieving and how he

related to them. So maybe you could think about a different title for this

chapter. And put it in the text or comments, whatever. But I'm just going to

paraphrase the first bit of it, and then I'm just going to focus on a couple of

verses. So Jesus effectively hears— he's not in Bethany where Mary and Martha

are— and Jesus hears that Lazarus has died. He decides at that point, um, that

he is going to wait another 2 days before going to Bethany to be with Mary and

Martha. So he waits for 2 days and then he travels with his disciples. His

disciples think that they are going with him effectively to die because Jesus

didn't have a very good reception the last time he was here. and so they go with

him, and Jesus goes back and he meets Mary and Martha and all of the other

people who have gone there to mourn with Mary and Martha, and he has some

conversations with Mary and Martha on his way in. He then goes to see Lazarus,

and he raises Lazarus from the dead. But the verses that I just want to focus on

are the verses after, or as he gets to Mary and Martha before he raises Lazarus

from the dead. And this is verse 33 to 36. I'm just going to read it. I'm

reading, um, from the New Living Translation, and it says this. It says, so

Jesus has traveled with his disciples and he gets to Bethany, and he says, when

Jesus saw her weeping— that's Mary, and saw the other people wailing with her, a

deep anger welled up within him, and he was deeply troubled. "Where have you put

him?" he asked them. They told him, "Lord, come and see." Then Jesus wept. The

people who were standing nearby said, "See how much He loved him. So they are

the verses that I want us to, to have a think about. So if we go back now to the

start of this story and we think about Jesus— so Jesus, we believe, was God. And

so when Jesus finds out that Lazarus is dead— Mary and Martha and Lazarus were

all siblings. And Jesus loved Mary, Martha, and Lazarus. And so he finds out

that Lazarus has died, and Jesus, it says, decides to wait for 2 days. Now,

Jesus would have known that Mary and Martha, 2 of the people who he loved, would

have been grieving, would have been very sad. Jesus also knew— and you can read

this in my— in John 11 that he was going to go to, um, where they were and to

raise Lazarus from the dead, yet he still decides to wait for 2 days. You see, I

just think there is something about grief that is really, really important, and

it is linked, I think, to the anger that Jesus showed when he saw everybody

really upset. And, and so he pauses, he waits. He doesn't just rush there and

raise Lazarus from the dead and bring to an end this grief as quickly as he

possibly could. When he gets to Mary and Martha, he also meets these two people

who he loved who were grieving, and both of them come out to him, and they both

have different, um, expressions of their grief. Martha has a more theological,

um, anger, and Mary has a more disappointed, um, sadness about her. And in both

of those situations, Jesus responds to Martha and to Mary in different ways. And

what he does is he meets them exactly where they are. He knows he's about to

raise Lazarus from the dead. He knows these questions that they have can be

ended with an action of him raising Lazarus from the dead. But instead of

rushing to that, he pauses with Mary and with Martha to speak to and to be with

them in their grief. Jesus doesn't rush through the grief. He walks into it,

remains there, pauses in the sadness, becomes sad himself. That says, doesn't

it, that Jesus wept when he saw everybody weeping? Jesus doesn't want you to

rush through your grief. There is something about your grief that is of value

and is important and is, um, a natural expression of something of the heart of

God. And you see, the reason why I think Jesus got angry was because what he was

looking at was death. What he was angry with was death. Because you see, when

the world was created and when God created man, death did not exist. We were not

supposed to die. We were supposed to live for eternity in the— with just walking

with God, um, in Paradise. That was what was supposed to happen. And Jesus was

there before sin had— before sin had entered the world. He was there at the

beginning with Adam and Eve, where no death, no pain existed, and they were just

walking with God. And it was perfect. And Jesus knows, knew that that was the,

the intention. And right here he's looking at people who he loved who are

heartbroken, people who love them who are heartbroken. And he can see that this

is what sin— this is what, um, sin has done to the world and has done to human

beings. And his anger is with death itself. And so as you grieve, and as you

have your questions, and as you have your disappointments, and as you have your

longings, and you miss people, and you— um, all of those things are a clear

reflection, a pure reflection of how God feels about this as well. You know,

when somebody dies, it is sad. It is sad. It is sad because we miss them. It is

sad because maybe they were in pain and things like that. It is sad that we

don't get to be with them, but it is sad because it was never the intention of

your Creator God. Um, and the reason why Jesus came and died on the cross was so

that we might have eternal life, so that we might again be able to live with

God. Somewhere where there won't be any pain and where there won't be any

suffering. Um, and so I suppose the first thing to say would be Jesus pauses and

meets them in their grief. He doesn't rush through it, and so neither should

you. Your grief is a natural, um, reflection of something of the heart of God.

Um, And you know, in our culture, um, it's, it's different, isn't it? Um, there

is a lot of toxic positivity around, um, and I have noticed this. And, um, you

know, there is, um, there's a, there's a saying, isn't there? Good vibes only,

um, and, and things like that. And because the reality is that we have a real

problem with people being sad. And, you know, I, I, I just want to throw that

open and have us think about that. You know, why is it that we think that

sadness is, is so inconvenient, makes us so uncomfortable? Um, why is that? Um,

you know, one thing, you know, we have a very high pace to our lives, don't we?

Very high pace to our lives. You know, whatever you are doing Everything, even

though technology had promised that we'd have more time, everything seems to

have speeded up, doesn't it? And sadness slows us down, doesn't it? When you are

sad, you are slower than you would normally be. And in this incredibly

fast-paced life, being sad for any period of time, you're going to— you're gonna

come into conflict with people around you and with the culture around you

because sadness slows us down. Um, it also forces people to think about their

own lives sometimes. You know, if you've got, um, somebody, um, who is close to

you, who you come into contact with, um, a lot, maybe on a regular, um, you

know, daily or weekly routine, and they are sad for a period of time um, then

it, you know, it forces you, um, especially us men, to, to sort of think about

our emotions and to try and engage with them and think, you know, try and meet

this person not just on an intellectual level but on an emotional level. And

that can be costly, can't it? Um, I, um, uh, over a decade ago now, um, I was a

teacher Um, and during this time when I was a teacher, I lost my dad. And I

remember, um, when I was, um, being in school and my mum calling me and saying

that he was having a heart attack and we had to go to the hospital. And sometime

afterwards he died. And I remember, you know, when I was in school, I remember

somebody saying to me, you know, the people will only remember how you made them

feel. That's how people will remember you. They will— when they think about you,

they'll think, how did I feel when I was around that person? And often when I

think about, um, my colleagues and I think about, you know, what were they like,

how did they make me feel, I think about the— that my mind goes to, when was I

at my lowest, and at that point, how did they make me feel? And, you know, some

of— for some of them, it, um, you know, they were great, um, and, and, you know,

some, some not so great. And but I think that's a challenge for us, isn't it?

You know, to think about the people who are potentially grieving around us. Um,

I know for me, um, what I wanted was for people to ask me about it. Um, and when

they asked me about it, it made me sad. And so sometimes people would ask me

about it and I would get sad and and they'd back away because they think, you

know, I don't want to make him sad. But, and, and it's difficult because I was

in education, which is very, very fast-paced, and people don't always have a lot

of time to sit with you and to talk. But that, that's what I wanted. I wanted

people to sit with me and to ask me how I was and to allow me the time to tell a

story about my dad or something like that. That, that, that was a you know,

what, what I wanted. I remember, um, as time went by as well, um, I remember

being quite surprised by the randomness of grief. So I remember, um, for

example, I remember when, when my dad died and he was in hospital, I remember

seeing him, seeing him dead for the first time and, and not having any emotional

reaction to it. Um, However, I remember, um, years and years after he died, um,

going through Tesco, um, with my son and seeing something that he liked, and all

of a sudden it was almost as though he just died that day. And, and, you know,

as time went by, those random points of grief became sort of less and less, but

they, but they still tripped you up. They were surprising. Um, and I think it,

it was important for me to pause in those moments and to, to reflect and just to

think, not to just rush through to the next thing that I needed to do, but to

stop and pause and go, it is sad that he's not here, and that wasn't God's

intention, that death would be in this world. And my, my grief and my mourning

is a reflection of, of God's heart. Um, you know, um, there is no perfect way to

grieve, um, at all. There is no, um, strategy. And I'm sure you'll find some on

the internet, but, but there is no strategy. We're all made differently and we

grieve differently. Um, but one thing that we can learn from this story of, of

Jesus and Mary and Martha is that both Mary and Martha took their grief to

Jesus. And they both had different disappointments and different sadnesses, but

they both took them to Jesus. And I think one of the things that we can do, um,

is when we are grieving, and whether that be because of the loss of a loved one,

whether that be because of the loss of a dream, or just because you are very sad

or very disappointed, taking that to God is a healthy response. It is something

that he is big enough, um, and loving enough to be able to cope with. It is

something that he wants us to do as his children. Um, you know, I'm, I'm a

father, I've got two kids, and you know, if they're sad, I want them to come to

me and to share their sadness with me. Um, and your Father wants you to share

your sadness with him. Um, not because he's going to come in and heal you

straight away, but because, like he did with Mary and Martha, he wants to come

and enter into your grief and disappointment and sadness with you and sit

alongside of you, um, and be with you as you walk through, um, that period of

your life. Um, I think the, you know, the final thing is, um, a bit of a

challenge really, I suppose, for, for us when dealing with other people who are

going through grief or disappointment. You know, in John 11, it says that

Bethany was 2 miles away from Jerusalem, and many Jews traveled to Mary and

Martha to be with them as they mourned And so these people could not— they

didn't, they didn't get an Uber and get out to Bethany. They walked for 2 miles.

They walked for 2 miles and they positioned themselves next to Mary and Martha

and grieved with them. It also says that when Mary got up to go out to see

Jesus, that the mourners thought that Mary was going to the tomb, so they got up

and went with her. That what they wanted to do was position themselves with Mary

as she grieved, and to be with her and to be next to her. You know, in, in the

culture that we live in, if someone's going through something sad— and I know

I've done this before— you could send a text and think that you've shown your

love because you've sent them a WhatsApp or you've sent them an emoji or

something like that. And, you know, obviously all these things are good, but I

think there's a challenge for us do a bit more, for us to be, um, to be a little

bit more like these mourners who got up and walked for 2 miles and just

positioned themselves next to these people who were mourning, um, and mourned

with them. Um, you know, if you've got friends, it's going to cost you time.

It's gonna— you're gonna— you're gonna have to give a lot But this is— that is

what they need. You know, if you are an employer, it's difficult, isn't it, in

the jobs market? Very difficult. But trying to be flexible enough and having the

empathy to be able to slow at that point and give that colleague, that employee,

the space that they need to be able to grieve is going to cost you. Um, um, but

it's, it's a challenge, isn't it? And it's something that, that we need God's

help with, that I need God's help with, um, as you know, in order to do that. So

that is, um, that is it really. Um, your grief, you shouldn't rush through it.

Jesus didn't. Um, he wants to come and position himself next to you. He wants

you to know that you are with him. Um, he draws near to those who are

brokenhearted. Um, and if you are grieving today, then you know, I know that

Jesus is drawing near to you. Um, if you've got friends and loved ones who are

grieving, then let's just think about, you know, maybe put the phone down, um,

and maybe go and visit them. And yeah, let's, uh, let's, let's Let's have a

think about that. So the 4 questions, um, that we posed at the start, um, you

can, you know, just be having a reflect upon. Um, has anyone said any— said

something to you to comfort you that has made it worse? Um, why do you think we

are so uncomfortable with sadness? And, you know, I offered one point, but, but

maybe you could have a think about some others. Um, what does this story tell us

about how God views our pain? And is there grief in your life that you never

gave yourself permission to feel? The final thing, you know, the raising of

Lazarus— do you think it's a good title for that chapter? I'm not sure. Could

you think of another title that we could maybe give that chapter? Yeah, great.

Thanks, Mike.

That's right.

Lots in there as usual. There's lots of comments going on as well, which is

good. Um, so we're going to get into all of that. Do keep them coming, do keep

your conversation going in conversation, uh, in the comments. I was going to

spend a bit of time talking about it now. How are you with that, Jen?

Yeah, great. The talk? Yeah, yeah, I thought it was really beautiful what you

said, and I think you, you said it so well. Um, Mike, so well done for that.

Thanks.

It was a difficult topic to talk on. Um, and I, you know, appreciate your

vulnerability as well. Um, I think it, I think it really helped to hear that. I

thought I understood a bit about grief. Um, but actually I'd never understood

before why Jesus was angry. 'Cause I thought, why is he angry now? You know, and

you explained that he was angry at death.

Mm-hmm.

And that makes perfect sense. But I think it reminded me of being like a child

and you see your mum or dad get angry over something and you think, but you

know, why are they feeling like that?

They were— Mm-hmm.

They were happy 2 minutes ago, but it's, yeah, I think, I think you really

clarified that and that was really great.

Cool.

Um, and just how, again, reading it myself, you know, why Jesus delayed the 2

days, I, that used to annoy me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because You know, yes, we know that he was gonna raise Lazarus, but I didn't, I

wasn't comfortable with him. He didn't even tell the disciples that Lazarus was

dead. He said he was asleep. He was asleep. Or that he wasn't well or something.

So I don't think they knew the severity of what they were going to straight

away. And that, that used to just annoy me a bit. Yeah, so I'd have been

definitely like Martha on the warpath, like, why weren't you here? I think.

Yeah, yeah, um, because they were really close friends, weren't they? So they

were being themselves with him. Yeah, but no, I think you clarified a lot of

things. And yeah, thank you.

That's all right.

It's interesting, isn't it, the whole, uh, Jesus hanging around for 2 days

thing. It's like Um, because I think quite often we have in our heads this view

of Jesus which is donning the cape, you know, Superman is coming, I'm gonna save

the day kind of thing and rescue it. Um, and like you say, he just pauses. He's

just like, yeah, not yet, guys.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because I listen to you talk about that because I started—

I've never really finished it— I started writing a book about sleep Did you fall

asleep, brother? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It sent me to sleep. Um, and I

started writing it during COVID and this was one of the stories that intrigued

me because Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep.

Yeah.

Now, this is the Son of God, so he's not lying. No. Do you know what I mean?

It's not like he's, is, is feeding them a bit of a sidewinder.

Yeah.

In God's view, he's like, no, he's asleep. And so the disciples then said, oh,

it's good that he rests up. Like, you know, old wives'— your mum would always

say, oh, just 'Have a good night's sleep and you'll be all right.' It just feels

a bit like that. Yeah, the disciples say, 'I'll be all right, I'll just have a

bit of sleep and it'll be fine.' Yeah, yeah. And, um, obviously he's not. Things

go very, very different. And it's just always intrigued me, uh, that story, like

you, that Jesus was not like Superman, just kind of, here we are saving the day,

that actually there was something that needed to happen.

Um, so yeah, and I think, I think, you know, we're not we're not left with, you

know, the, the sort of clearest of reasons for it, you know. Well, we're still

left with questions, aren't we? And I think, you know, the Bible is meditation

literature, is that it's supposed— we're supposed to think about it and then

think about it some more and go back and reread it and, you know, think about it

a little bit more and have a think about other stories and stuff like that. And

Um, it's definitely one of those stories that requires a few, yeah,

read-throughs and, and certainly a long walk and a cup of tea, a biscuit, a

biscuit or three. Yeah. And, um, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's

meditation literature, isn't it? It is. We have to sit, we have to meditate with

it, and we have to Um, we have to take our anger to God and we have to take our

questions to God.

I think we have to wrestle with it. Yeah, it's interesting because Ellis has put

here in the comments, um, what I struggle with is not wanting God to be with me

in the pain. I just want him to take it away.

Yeah.

When he doesn't, I think, well, you raised Lazarus, you fixed that, so why not

just fix this, right? And I think that's the default, isn't it? It's like we

don't like pain, we don't want it, we don't want to feel this way. God, fix it.

I don't want you to be with me. I mean, that's nice, don't get me wrong. Yeah, I

just want— I want you to fix it because you, you're a God that can fix these

kind of things, right? Just fix the problem. Uh, and like you say, sometimes we

have to wrestle with that. Yeah, yeah, the long walks, the cup of tea and the

biscuit.

We definitely don't understand God's ways. As you said, you know, his ways are

not our ways, and, um, they, they're not Clearly. And yeah, there's some things

there I don't understand. I heard J-John speak about actually when he does call

Lazarus out, which was funny, but he said, you know, he'd been dead for 3 days.

And, you know, if you fall asleep on the couch or something, you're quite stiff

the next morning. But 3 days later when you've been dead, yeah, yeah, you're

going to be very stiff and very sore. Yeah. Um, he was bound in all, all the,

all this. But what the point I'm making is, um, Jesus didn't like give him a

coffee to, you know, to sort of start to feel a little bit better before he

called him out, or he didn't do it gradually. He just said, come out. So his

approach was quite bold, even to his dead friend. Mm-hmm. Whereas we'd have been

a bit more, you know, someone go in and two people lift him up.

Yeah.

But no, Jesus was just, come out. So I just think we've got a lot to learn and

understand from his attitude sometimes. I mean, God is without sin. It's— it—

he's not done anything wrong. It's just a bit alien to us. Yeah, his whole

approach. Yeah, yeah, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. And you know, there's— I just think there must be— there must be

something about us grieving, you know, that, that, as I say, reflects that God's

heart towards Jesus' heart towards death, but also that that, you know, this was

not the— this was not God's intention that death was here, but death is here. So

in this grief, there is, there is work that God can do in these people in order

that they might experience greater life on the other side of it. And so it's

hard for us to think, it's hard for us to get our heads around, and we do start

to, to, to question God in it. But, you know, Jesus obviously believed that,

that remaining 2 days and letting them grieve for a while would in the end be to

their benefit and the glory of God.

Yeah, um, yeah, I think—

and we have to trust him. Yeah, we do have to trust him. Faith in— faith is— has

to be in the character of God and not in the outcome. And so we have to trust—

we have to look at a story like this and think, I have faith that God is loving

and gracious and powerful, and that's what my faith's in. The fact that he acts

in a way that is, that I don't fully understand. My faith is not in the outcome.

My faith has got to be in the character of God. And if it is, then you can

meditate on this and it not ruin you. Yeah, yeah.

Um, that's so true.

Yeah.

And it's interesting with Lazarus. I mean, you know, to make the obvious

statement, it's not here. No, right? So yeah, he died again, right? And this

time Jesus didn't raise him from the dead. Um, It was like this really— I— it's

like this thing Jesus did when he was on Earth. He raised a few people from the

dead, I think, to almost point the way to what's going to happen, you know, in

heaven kind of thing. It's like, okay, so actually I've got to go through the

grief now, but at some point he and me are going to come out of a tomb somehow,

somewhere in heaven. I'm gonna go, what's up, right?

Yeah.

And it's But it is, it is this thing where even Jesus raising Lazarus from the

dead wasn't permanent while he was here on Earth. No, right? And, and death is

inescapable. Death and taxes, apparently both in this case. Yeah. Um, so we

can't escape it. But to your question, why do we find it so hard to talk about

sad things? Is a— why do we find it so hard to talk about grief? Right? It's a

really interesting one, isn't it? And you, you hear that something bad has

happened and you feel like, I don't know what to say, I don't know how to

respond here, I don't know what to say to this person. But one of the things

that you said, Mike, was I just wanted— I just wanted people to ask me.

Yeah, yeah.

And one of the things I remember, um, learning early on in my, in my Christian

walk, I suppose, was actually to not be afraid to ask the question to have a

conversation, but not to ask the question, or not to say to someone, if there's

anything I can do, let me know. Because that puts the whole emphasis back on

you. It's like, I want to be helpful. So I'm just going to say, if you need me

to do anything, just tell me, right? And in certain situations, that's really

good. But in grief, it's not because now you're like, well, what do I do with

that? Because now that's my responsibility to ask you to do something. I don't

want to do that. I've got, I've got all this to deal with, right? Um, and so I

don't think that's a particularly great question to ask. Better to say, I'm

coming around, or let's go for a walk at this date, or do you mean— or make some

kind of suggestions, be a bit more proactive. Yeah, yeah, bake a pie, you know,

I would do whatever. Yeah, um, you know, that makes sense. Don't just go, let me

know if you need me to do anything, or let me know if I can help in anything.

Yeah, yeah, it's a said it makes me feel better saying it, but it is a bit of a

cop-out. Yeah. Anyways, um, and so I remember, I remember learning that.

No, that's a really good point. I think, I think, um, just thinking, uh, I

think, I think, um, you sure? Um, I think we can learn a lot from other

cultures, um, around us. I mean, You know, different as a midwife, I'd go into

people's homes. Um, sometimes it was a sad situation, you know, a baby had died

or, and always difficult to make those, those home visits.

Yeah.

But the most of the mums I, uh, spent time with, they didn't want answers. No,

they didn't want, um, platitudes. Yeah, they just wanted you to be there, and

they wanted sometimes to ask questions, to say, um, or just talk you through

what happened again. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes they, they didn't want anything.

Yeah, they just wanted you to go. They, um, I don't know, just be there. Yeah.

And I don't think you can underestimate that. No. Um, we feel as a British

culture, we feel that we've got to do something, we've got to say the right

thing, we've got to, you know, I don't— I think we're thinking more of ourselves

than, than the grieving person.

Yeah.

Um, we want to come across in that way. Yeah, we don't want to look foolish or

say the wrong thing.

And you want to be, you know, in 10 years they'll say, I remember when Jan came

around and she said this, and it, you know, it changed my life. Yeah, yeah,

rubbish, who cares? Yeah, yeah. You know, it's about, it's about what they need

there and then.

Yeah.

And then they mightn't have the words to express what they need.

Yeah.

But I think quietly just being there, you know, like you said, Mike, you just

wanted people to sit with you and—

Yeah, yeah.

I've lost my dad many years ago and I totally you know, could relate to what you

said. Yeah, yeah.

Did you find, Mike, that one of the best things people could do was to say to

you, tell me a story?

Absolutely.

I, I, you know, and also, sorry not to interject with my version of that story,

or, oh, I've got a similar story to that.

It's like, just, yeah, tell me the story and just sit and listen.

Yeah, get engrossed in the story, right?

100%. You know, that was all I wanted to do. And, you know, everyone's

different, but all I wanted to do was tell stories about my dad. Um, and yeah,

you know, it's just— but it's, it's so hard, isn't it? I find this, you know,

even when talking to anybody, to not interject and to just sit and actually

listen is so hard. It's so, so hard. I was trying to give, um, some youth some

advice a while back, and I was saying to them, you know, I wish I'd known this

when I was young, or I wish I could do it. Maybe I knew it, but I couldn't do

it. Is that when someone's talking to you and telling you a story, you need to

listen, and then you need to ask them a question about what you've just heard.

Because when people feel like they've been heard, yeah, it's so powerful. Yeah,

so powerful. And so, you know, if a grieving person tells you a story about

their dad and you can demonstrate that you are listening by asking a question

for them to be able to go on and go further, that person is going to feel heard.

And that's going to be, that's going to be so transformational, so, so

important.

Um, it's really good, really important. I think one of the things that, um, when

you think about it, when some, when someone's passed away right? There is a

legacy and there is an inheritance of— now that might not be money, by the way.

Yeah, yeah. But the thing that we always remember are the memories, right? So

when you're asking someone to tell the story, you're helping them unlock

memories.

Yeah.

Which is all they've got left of that. Yeah, right. So it's, um, it's a really—

I think it's a really powerful mechanism. Alicia's put here in the comments Um,

laughter is a blessing. Yeah. And I think actually that's a really good point,

it— to not actually shy away from helping someone laugh in a time of sadness.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's not me telling you a really poor joke, by the way. No. But that's

asking me stories like, oh, when did you last laugh together? What was a good

belly laugh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me that story. Yeah, yeah. And, um, yeah,

and she's put here, uh, sometimes I've just wanted people to sit with me, and

they— back to your point, Jen, um, they can just be there without having to say

anything. Um, I think it can be difficult to accept that there are certain

things that the Lord does in his divine timing that don't always match our

desires because we can't see everything he does, which is very, very true. Um,

yeah, but I— she's— sorry, I'm just reading Elise's comment here. Um, Jesus—

seeing Jesus go through these very human emotions helps us embrace that we can

experience the same ones, right? Yeah, which is very true.

Yeah, I think, um, another thing that can help, um, is, is beauty. Um, I know

often people take flowers to people who are grieving. Um, and I think there's

something comforting. I don't know fully what it is, but I think there's

something comforting about, about beauty. So whether it is that you, as you

said, you know, let's go for a walk, let's, let's go and see something. Um, I

don't fully understand it, but I think there is something.

I think when you're, when you're in nature you're actually connecting with God

there in a— whether you're aware of it or not, you know, if you're not a

Christian, but you're surrounded by beauty and like beautiful trees and flowers,

water, mountains. All these things touch our spirits, I think. Um, and I think

it's, you know, maybe it's something to do with, with God is in in all of it,

isn't he?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, yeah, that's really interesting.

I think, um, Alicia's comment as well about, um, you know, trying to— or being

able to understand God's timing, and, um, is, is really, really, really, really

hard, um, and really difficult, and definitely something we have to wrestle

with. Um, and what was the other thing that, that she was saying?

Um, Jesus experienced the same emotion.

But Jesus experienced the same emotion. Yeah. And so seeing Jesus being upset is

affirming, I think, to, to anyone who is going through, um, grief or sadness or

disappointment. Um, it is affirming to know that, you know, this is a human

emotion that you're created with, that is natural and a righteous response to

whatever, whatever is going on, whatever is happening. Um, we have— we serve a

God who, who knows what it's like. And I've been reading recently about, um, you

might know this already, but reading about the fact that God knows not just what

you're going through, but he knows what you're going through from your point of

view. Which I think is important to note that, you know, it's not just that he

has experienced sadness, therefore he knows what your sadness is. Like, there's

almost a bit of a disconnect, but he knows what you're going through from your

point of view. He can identify exactly with what you're going through, and, and

he understands, um, And, you know, like Alicia was saying, seeing, yeah, Jesus

being sad and knowing that he knows me and he knows what I'm going through from

my point of view, given my history, is, is again, you know, a comforting

thought, a comforting thing to think about.

Yeah, absolutely.

I like the fact that Jesus wept is one of the shortest verses in the Bible now.

You know, this is the old pub quiz. What's the shortest verse in the Bible?

Jesus wept.

There are actually a few others in contention here, depending if you look at the

original Greek and Hebrew. I don't want to go there. That's just too random. But

the fact that it is intentionally short, I quite like, because there's no

explanation. He wept.

Deal with it, right?

It's not like— it's just like, it's the way it is. Jesus wept.. And I think, I

think the other thing that, that, um, let me just look at the comments actually

first. Uh, Sharon's put here, I think sometimes people can be nervous about

saying or doing something that will make the grieving person feel worse or

annoyed because they've heard stories of where that has happened.

Yeah.

Um, definitely. And it's, I think that's very, very true. And again, this is

part of sometimes our reticence, isn't it, in trying to help people, is we don't

want to mess things up when someone's already grieving. And I find the best

thing to do is just ask them, can we talk about this? Do you want to share a

story, or can I leave you alone? Can I get you a cup of tea? Um, I think it's,

you know, it is true though, isn't it? Yeah, I think the fear of that Yeah,

yeah. But because you've been— here's the thing, right? I think if you've, if

you've not been through a loss, it's hard to talk to people who are going

through one.

Yeah, yeah.

But because you've gone through it, yeah, all of a sudden you have a different

capability, or different capabilities may be the wrong word, a different empathy

perhaps.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, with someone that's going through grief, maybe.

Yeah, yeah. Definitely think so. And, um, I know when my, um, a few years before

my dad died, he got cancer and, um, you know, had a battle with cancer and then

came out the other side of it and felt like he had the capacity to be able to

talk to people who had been through cancer. And I suppose it's a similar thing,

isn't it? It's an experience. Yeah, that you have walked through with God. Yeah.

Um, that you can say, look, I've walked with God through the experience that you

are going through.

And just more tuned in, aren't you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

In a lot many ways. I think another thing that sticks out here, and probably

should— we should touch on this just a little bit, is like you say, when Jesus

turns up, Martha's like, if you'd have been here. Yeah, right now she's annoyed

at God, right? She's angry at God and, and quite bold, going back to your point,

in her accusation.

Yeah, yeah.

If you'd have not been here, this wouldn't have happened. Dude, this is your

fault. Yeah, right. And this brazenness that we see of Martha, I don't think we

would have seen maybe at any other time, but because she's going through grief,

um, I think she's, she's directing that anger to— and anger is maybe the wrong

word, maybe confusion, maybe, maybe that's a better word, right? I don't

understand, but I know enough to know if you'd have been here, this wouldn't

have happened. Um, and I think we can do that a lot in grief. I mean, were you

like that with your dad?

Um, I think he'd been ill for a long time, which I suppose in the end when he

died it felt like the appropriate thing to happen. However, he was, he was 66,

you know, he's missed out on a lot of his grandchildren growing up and stuff

like that, and you think that, that's, that's very sad. Um, But I don't think— I

think I— yeah, I don't think I took it out on God. I think it just made me— it

made me sad. Um, but yeah, I don't think— I think what I could have done is

taken my sadness to God more. I think I, um, I tended to stay alone, and because

I worked in a very fast-paced place, I just felt like I just had to get on, just

had to sort of push it away a little bit and get on. Um, but, but as I said, my—

what my heart was to do was to have someone like you say, tell me a story. Um,

but it just didn't feel— I don't know, it didn't feel appropriate. I suppose

like, like Sharon was saying, you know, when you see someone grieving as well,

you just don't want to make it worse, do you? No. But at the same time, you

know, I think in order to show real sacrificial love, it does take a bit of a

risk sometimes. Yeah. And you are risking the possibility that you're gonna do

something wrong. But yeah, but if you, you know, if you don't do anything you

know, that's clearly the wrong thing to do, isn't it? And so sometimes I think

you've got to, you've got to take that risk. If your heart is that you want to

be with this person in their grief and you long for them, um, to, to move

through this grief, um, then, you know, then I would say take, you know, take

the advice that that we've been talking about today, but also just, just take

that risk.

Yeah, I'm going— such a good— very good. Yeah, such a good point. I remember

once there was a couple, um, and I won't go into the details, but I remember,

um, I remember them having a, you know, this sort of situation where the their,

um, the lady was pregnant and she ended up in hospital and it was a miscarriage.

And this wasn't great, the whole situation wasn't great. Um, and I remember our

senior pastor being away on holiday because normally when, you know, something

like that happens, you go, well, I'll send them a text or I'll do something, but

I know that Dave will go and see them.

Yeah, yeah.

But Dave wasn't there and it was late one night, so I'm like, right, I've got to

get in the car and go down to the women's hospital. It's going to be past

visiting hours. And I, I went to the hospital and I said, I'm here to see such

and such. I said, yeah, I'm a minister of religion, which I, you know, we all

are, I guess. And, um, they're all like, here, come on in. And so I got to see

them, um, and I, I didn't need— I didn't need to go and talk to them. I needed

to I needed them to know that I cared enough to go down there, right? And I

said, when I saw them, I'm like, you don't need to talk to me. I'm just going to

stay outside. I'm going to pray. That's what I'm going to do. If you, if you

want me, I'm there, but just know that I'm there, right? And I think sometimes

you've just got to put, like you say, put yourself out there.

Yeah.

And it is easy to go, I'll send a text. And that might be the appropriate

response for me the following day.

Yeah, yeah, right.

But I think if these people mean something to you, I think putting yourself out

there is quite an important thing to do.

Yeah, I think we're just— we're frightened of confrontation. We're frightened of

anger. As in, you know, you see, um, you know, on television, there's films and

Italian families and They, they like, the women wear black, don't they, for, um,

I don't know, 6, is it 6 years? Seemingly widows remain in black, you know,

older women wear, won't wear any other color. I don't know if there's like a set

time, but you often see, uh, you know, I think in Spanish culture as well, they

do grieve for a long, long time. Um, but what I was gonna say is I just think

the worst thing that could happen is that someone is gonna get angry or totally

break down and cry in front of you. And I don't really think— I think that's

okay. Yeah, you know, we don't like someone being angry with us. But I don't

think we should be so scared of emotion either. Yeah. As a, as a culture, as

Christians.

Yeah.

I think we've got to learn this a bit better. Yeah. Haven't we?

Yeah. But my, um, my wife was at— well, me and my wife were at a party, um, a

little while ago. And this is, I think, similar to what you were saying, and

this this lady was there, and she just— she'd just been— I think she might have

been going through a divorce, and she was— she was there with her kids, and, um,

she come to the party, and, um, she hadn't intended to, you know, to talk about

it or to become emotional, but— but with these strangers who she'd never met

before, one of them being my wife, um, she explained she just mentioned that

this was happening anyway. She just broke down, and one of the strangers there,

you know, never met before, yeah, was just like, you know, now listen, you, you

are fantastic, you are doing so well, you are, you know, look at you, look at

your kids, they're absolutely brilliant, you're doing so, so well. Gave her a

big hug, and, you know, and, and it was just what she needed. And I, you know,

Debbie was telling me, and she was just like I was just like bowled over by the,

the boldness and the love that this complete stranger showed to this person who

just really needed it. And she wasn't, you know, it was almost like that was her

reaction to do something like that. You know, I'd, I'd hope that that would be

the kind of thing that I would do. And yes, it could have gone wrong, couldn't

it? Um, but You know, I think, I think that's what we need to move towards being

more like, um, especially in this country.

Yeah, definitely.

Very good.

And on that point, ladies and gentlemen, seems like a good place to end. Uh,

thanks, Mike.

That's all right, enjoyed it.

Yeah, yeah, well, you said it was quite a hard talk to prepare, and I was kind

of like, when you said that this time, I wonder why. And then I heard this talk

and I'm like, oh, I know, I understand why. That's fine. So thank you for doing

that, man. I appreciate it. These things aren't always easy. Jen, thank you for

joining me. You're welcome. As always, Matthew.

Am I? Yes. It's good. Oh, it was great. I really can't say enjoyed tonight.

Yeah, yeah, it's just good to talk about this stuff.

It's really interesting.

Yeah. Any final words for me?

Um, read Lamentations. It's good to, um, lamenting is— yeah. Appropriate, and no

one can say this is how long you've got to grieve. It can— you do it in your own

time and way. And, um, anyone who has lost someone knows that, you know, you'll

smell something that reminds you of the person, you know, 10 years later, or

It's all, it's all good, it's all fine.

Yeah, that was for me.

Well, I suppose only that, you know, God draws near to the brokenhearted. So if

someone is grieving and you take the time to draw close to them, then I think

that is a, a powerful act, and it will not be without great eternal value.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's so true. You stole my scripture. That's okay, I forgive you. Um,

so, uh, Alicia says thanks so much. So Roz says thanks for the talk. Um, yeah, I

hope this— we don't always talk about this kind of stuff, so it's been— I think

it's been really, really good. And I think for those of you who are talking to

people who are going through grief, you don't have to fix their problem. Yeah,

that's the one thing that I would say. And for those of you who are going

through grief don't feel like you're a problem that needs to be fixed. Yeah. Um,

and just sit with it and just sit with God in it and let him take you on the

journey that you maybe need to go on. Um, but at the end of all of this, as

Christians, we get to believe that one day we get to see Lazarus, right? That

whoever it is will be, um, risen from the dead in a new glorified body. And, uh,

we'll get to hang with them again. And so it's not the end of the story. It

doesn't always help in the here and now, but there is that eternal hope. Yeah,

absolutely. Um, and, um, so yes, we are going to move over to live lounge. Um,

so if you go into the comments, you'll see that we've put in there some links to

come join us on a Google Meet. So Come and say howzit if you like. We're just

going to hang out there for a couple minutes. So it's always nice to meet people

and say hello. So do come join us in that. And then next week, I don't actually

know what's going on next week. I should probably check real quick. And do you

know what's happening next week?

No.

Oh, Sharon's speaking, which is great. And we've got Ade and Dan who are

hosting. Zoe's on the tech. Oh no, Zoe's away. I need to rearrange the tech.

She's just reminding me. Oh, anybody want to come do tech next Sunday? Uh, we

need some more tech operators. So I was going away for 3 weeks. Um, but yeah, so

next week, what are you talking about next week, babe? So if you didn't hear

that, she said you'll find out next week. Uh, so you don't want to ruin the

surprise. Have you, do you know what you're talking about next week?

Okay.

Have you done any planning?

Excellent.

So cool. Weeks of thinking. Excellent. So, you know, Sharon's always good at

speaking. So, you know, it's going to be good. But Jan, thanks so much. Mike,

thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. And like I say, if you are able

and willing and wanting to do so, it'd be great to meet you in Live Lounge. Come

say hello. We'll be, we won't be there long, maybe 5, 10 minutes. It's always

great to see new people's faces. So, Yeah, hopefully see you in there. If not,

we will see you next week. If you need any information, or if there's anything

that's come up from tonight and you would like some prayer, or you just want to

get in touch with somebody, you can reach us through the website

www.crowd.church. Just head there, there's some forms, um, there is a WhatsApp

number on there which I need to take down because that's not working at the

moment. So use the forms, use the email, reach out to us. Uh, we get all the

emails and we will pray for you and, and obviously do whatever we can. Um, so

yeah, that's how you reach out to us. Small group information, if you'd like to

join small groups, is all on there. Um, so yeah, uh, just go reach out to us

through www.crowd.church, uh, for any information that you need. But that's it

from me, that's it from Mike, that's it from Jen. Thank you so much for joining

us. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world. We'll see you next

time. Bye for now.