Fully Known and Still Loved

Well, good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. For those of you don't know me,

my name is Matt Edmundson. It is great to be with you this evening. I am joined

by the delightful Anna Kettle.

Good evening everyone, nice to be here again.

And the equally delightful Sharon Edmundson.

Hi everybody, good to be here too.

Yes, so we have 3 people in the studio all geared up and ready for this thing

called online church. So very warm welcome to you. If this is your first time

with us, we just do church but online. So, uh, the way it's going to work, it's

really simple. Let me get my microphone sorted out. Uh, we're going to have a

talk tonight by Pete Farrington, uh, and we do this thing where we call it

Conversation Street, where we talk about the talk. So any questions, any

thoughts, any comments you've got, do put them in, the live stream, uh, and we

will see those and it'll be great to, um, hear from you. Uh, and yeah, that's

pretty much about it, isn't it, really? Uh, that's what we do. And at the end of

it, we switch over to something called Live Lounge. Um, so we just have a Google

Zoom, Google Meets, where you are more than welcome to come join us. It'd be

great to see you in there. So how you surviving the heat if you're in England?

Uh, and welcome to everyone who's not actually still watching the tennis, or

maybe are you watching the tennis and watching Crowd Church? Be honest. Are you

watching the Wimbledon semi-final at the same time? Uh, we've got Sharon in the

comments, Ellis, Funny Budgie Antics. I love the YouTube usernames. Uh, Lady

Burkeby, Catherine, uh, Rach, Ros. Um, thank you, Funny Bajigant Antics. Yes, I

am very well, uh, thank you. And who have we got on the mobile stream? We've

got, uh, Alicia and we've got Sonia. Um, so just so you know, we'll refer to two

live streams tonight. One is the horizontal and one is the portrait for those

watching on a mobile phone. YouTube, we can now do both horizontal and vertical,

so we just have to watch two live streams. That's all, that's it, that's what's

going on. So anyway, how we doing? How are you doing, Miss Hannah?

I'm very well. I am a little bit warm, as you alluded to before. Spent most of

the afternoon in the garden. Um, yeah, had a barbecue, a bit of a water fight

with the kids. Yeah, so I'm like, yeah, um, ready for this Crowd Church. If only

just get out of the heat. It's cooler in the studio.

Yeah, it is really cool here. Yeah, it is really cool. That's nice though. And

how's your— we have not really seen you today.

No, no.

We live in the same house.

We've crossed over occasionally, haven't we?

Yeah, we have.

Yeah.

Hold on. You can't just stop there. So what have you both been doing? So you

haven't crossed over.

So I have spent the day working. Do you really want to know? I've spent the day

working on this little box of tricks here. Okay, uh, which connects into the

comments for the live stream, which is a beautiful thing. Um, uh, hello Lily

Grace. Um, uh, so yeah, so I've been working on that, making fancy electronics

to help the live streams on Crowd Church.

Now I can see why Sharon's been doing something else.

Absolutely, I wouldn't be much help with that. So I went to in-person church

this morning and then came came back, made the dinner for later, which we'll

have when we get in. And then I've been and done a language swap with a lady who

used to be a student of mine. So, yes.

Cool.

Slightly, slightly disappointing when I realise how good I'm not. But anyway.

But it was, it was quite different to what I was doing. Yes, very different.

That's why we didn't sort of see each other. Funny Budgie Antics is off to

Blackpool next weekend. Fun. Yeah, yeah. My name Louise, laugh out loud. I quite

like funny budgie antics, to be fair.

You know my name, Louise, you might just get that one sticking now.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, warm welcome to everybody that is watching on

the live stream. So let's jump into Pete's talk. We'll get straight into that

talk and then we'll be back like a safe conversation street. So Pete's great. If

you don't know Pete, I've known Pete for years. He's an absolute legend. I

really enjoy hearing him talk, um, and so he's going to be helping us unpack the

next sort of step in our series, Jesus the Revolutionary. So he's, um, picking

that with us, and so we're going to be getting into that with him. After that,

like I said, we've got Conversation Street. We'll get into your questions, your

comments. I've got a whole bunch of questions based off of Pete's talk. Um, and

so yeah, I'll— we'll see you in the comments, and we'll be back in, I guess— I

don't know how long Pete's talking for, maybe 15-20 minutes. Uh, we'll be back

for— say, how many? 20 minutes. So we'll be back after this with Pete

Farrington.

Hello, crowd! It's great to be here for the next talk in our series on Jesus the

Revolutionary, and the title for my talk is When Your Past Follows You In. It's

going to be an interesting one, and today we're going to be looking at a passage

in the Bible in the Gospel of Luke. So I'm going to be reading in chapter 7,

verses 36 through 50. Let's get stuck in. So one of the Pharisees asked him—

that's asked Jesus— to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house and

reclined at table. And behold, a woman of the city who was a sinner, when she

learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an

alabaster flask of ointment. And standing behind him at his feet weeping, she

began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head

and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee

who had invited him saw this, He said to himself, "If this man were a prophet,

he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for

she is a sinner." And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to

say to you." And he answered, "Say it, Teacher." A certain moneylender had two

debtors. One owed 500 denarii, and the other 50. When they could not pay, he

cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more? Simon

answered, "The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt." And he

said to him, "You have judged rightly." Then turning toward the woman, he said

to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for

my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair.

You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my

feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with

ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she

loved much, but he who is forgiven little, loves little. And he said to her,

your sins are forgiven. Then those who were at table with him began to say among

themselves, who is this who even forgives sins? And he said to the woman, your

faith has saved you. Go in peace. It's a fascinating story, this, and we see

here that Jesus is the guest at a Pharisee's house. Now, the Pharisees were were

the religious leaders at the time. So it'd be safe to assume that Jesus has been

invited into quite an elite circle, but there is someone who's found her way

there who shouldn't really be there. And Jesus's host Simon really takes

exception to this and to what Jesus is allowing to happen. And Simon said in

verse 37, 'If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him.' Now

Simon assumes that being a prophet and knowing everything about someone's past

must necessarily mean rejecting them. If Jesus were all-knowing, Simon is

thinking, he would know that she does not and cannot belong here. Or to put it

another way, the fact he is allowing all this to take place is proof he is not

all-knowing. And on a human level, I think Simon is, is right, because we see

this in our own experience, don't we? Like, if, if someone were to know your

darkest secrets and the things that you are most ashamed of, and were to spend a

day walking around in your head and know everything that you think, that

couldn't possibly mean you could still find acceptance right? Or at least that

would eventually run out. Like, we've probably all got a line beyond which we

would be unwilling to step in extending invitation and showing acceptance. Like,

at some point our willingness to forgive will eventually run out. But Simon here

is caught thinking something that we are all too often guilty of, I think, and

that is thinking that Jesus is, is just like us. Because Jesus knows her past

completely and yet receives her completely. So everything in Simon is railing

against what he's seeing, and to be honest, I get it. And I think a lot of

Simon's and our wrestling with this is how we often— is due to how we often try

to explain away the very concept of and our need for forgiveness, like when it

comes to ourselves. And so that really determines everything when it comes to

looking at others. And I think that we are primed to utterly reject the notion

of forgiveness and without realising it, to completely redefine it for ourselves

because of our preference for excuse-making and blame-shifting. C.S. Lewis

explained this really well in, in an essay he wrote on forgiveness. He said

this: The trouble is that what we call asking God's forgiveness very often

really consists in asking God to accept our excuses. What leads us into this

mistake is the fact that there usually is some amount of excuse, some

extenuating circumstances. We are so very anxious to point these things out to

God that we are apt to forget the very important thing. That is, the bit left

over. The bit which excuses don't cover. The bit which is inexcusable, but not,

thank God, unforgivable. And if we forget this, we shall go away imagining that

we have repented and been forgiven, when all that has really happened is that we

have satisfied ourselves with our own excuses. He goes on to say that we're only

wasting our time talking about all the parts which can, we think, be excused.

Because when you go to a doctor, you show him the bit of you that is wrong—say,

a broken arm. It would be a mere waste of time to keep on explaining that your

legs and throat and eyes are all right. You may be mistaken in thinking so,

actually. And anyway, if they really are right, the doctor will know that. C.S.

Lewis went on, a great deal of our anxiety to make excuses comes from not really

believing in it, from thinking that God will not take us to himself again unless

he is satisfied that some sort of case can be made out in our favour. But that is

not forgiveness at all. Real forgiveness means looking steadily at the sin, the

sin that is left over without any excuse after all allowances have been made,

and seeing it in all its horror, dirt, meanness, and malice, and nevertheless

being wholly reconciled to the man who has done it. Wow, this made so much sense

to me when I first read it, and I think that Simon is thinking in terms of

excuses, not forgiveness. Because he can see no excuses whatsoever that can be

made for this woman and her past, and no justification at all for her presence

amongst such company as himself. And I think that if we were to rewrite this

passage and adapt it so that Jesus's response was according to modern

sensibilities, it would very possibly sound something something like this:

Simon, I have something to say to you. We must stop essentialising this woman

through the harmful label of sinner. That language perpetuates stigma and

reinforces exclusionary power structures. Instead, we should affirm her

authentic lived experience and recognise that her behaviours emerged from a

complex matrix of socioeconomic disadvantage. Patriarchal oppression, and

structural inequity that constrained her agency. Calls to repentance merely

perpetuate shame culture. What she needs is affirmation, empowerment, and the

redistribution of social power. Simon, I invite you into a posture of radical

allyship, where you decenter your privilege, examine your implicit biases, and

participate in dismantling the systems that produced this harm. Now, in all

seriousness, some of those things really may have been true of the culture at

the time, really. And there usually are some extenuating circumstances, as C.S.

Lewis said. But Jesus shows no interest at all in ruminating on excuses, and he

wastes no time on that. Because, and this is so important I think for us in this

day and age, doing so would have done nothing to solve her greatest problem.

Jesus is instead concerned with, as C.S. Lewis put it, the bit which excuses

don't cover and the sin that is left over without any excuse. And it's really

interesting because Jesus himself acknowledges the reality of this woman's sin

more fully than anyone else in the room. He responded to Simon's objections by

telling a story, a parable. And I love how he begins, "Simon, I have something

to say to you." You know at that point he's in trouble. But Jesus depicts this

woman as the one in the parable for whom the moneylender cancelled the larger

debt. And in verse 47, he refers to her sins, which are many. So while Simon is

thinking to himself, Jesus, let me enlighten you as to what kind of woman this

is that you're allowing to touch you. Well, Jesus is actually like, no, Simon, I

know. I know her sins better than you do, and they are more than you know. So

there really is no case to be made out in her favour. The narrator calls her a

sinner right at the beginning. The Pharisee condemns her, a sinner in his

thoughts. This assessment is devastating and it's unanimous, and even Jesus

agrees. He never challenges it, and crucially, she didn't either. She didn't

disagree. She never uttered a word, and, and her silence indicates that she has

no objection. She didn't try to come up with excuses. She just saw herself

rightly. She knew that she was a sinner, and she knew how much she needed

forgiveness. "He who is forgiven little loves little," Jesus said. And then he

asks Simon the killer question: "Which of them will love him more? Is it the one

who owed 500 denarii?" Or the one who owed 50? Simon answered correctly, and he

walked straight into the trap. Because the woman in the room is the one who

loves extravagantly, and Simon is the one who didn't even offer water for Jesus'

feet. Now, Jesus' point was not necessarily that the woman had sinned more than

the Pharisee, or that the Pharisee only needed to be forgiven a little. He,

like, he wasn't saying that it would cost less to save this woman than to say

that— he wasn't saying that it would cost less to save the Pharisee, sorry, than

to save the woman. But his point was that this woman loved much because she had

recognised just how wretched her condition was. She knew how high her sins piled

up, and she came knowing that Jesus was her only hope. She didn't claim, as we

would today, I am enough. She just knew that she was profoundly inadequate. She

knew that she was guilty, and she didn't deflect blame and point her finger at

the system saying, "Jesus, my condition is really just the result of this unjust

society I live in, and you don't know what my upbringing was like." No, she knew

she was guilty and undeserving of forgiveness, and her silence said that it

really was as bad as they said. And worse. There was no attempt to try and trick

Jesus into thinking that there really wasn't that much to forgive or that there

were just lots of excuses to accept. Jesus actually shared many parables in his

ministry, and there's another one that I think sheds more light on this. In

Luke, Jesus told a parable. This is Luke 18. He told this parable to some who

trusted in themselves that they were righteous and treated others with contempt.

Two men went up into the temple to pray, Jesus said, one a Pharisee and the

other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: God, I

thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or

even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I

get. But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to

heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, a sinner! I tell

you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For

everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself

will be exalted. We see in, in this story of the woman and the Pharisee, we see

a man who— well, we see in this, in this parable, we see a man who had satisfied

himself with his own excuses or with the kind of thinking that 'At least I'm not

as bad as this other guy. At least I'm not like others.' And we see that

juxtaposed with a man who, just like the woman weeping at Jesus' feet, is

looking steadily, steadily at her sin and recognising it for what it is. Now, if

you're anything like me, on the morning of an appointment at the dentist You'll

brush your teeth, you'll brush your teeth? You'll brush your teeth twice as

long as usual and maybe the night before you won't have any dessert, you know,

as if that will make any difference whatsoever. But that's what I do, as if the

dentist won't notice the massive cavity. Now I'm married to a dentist, so she's

just like, Pete, do you think I'm stupid? Do you think I won't notice? But this

woman in today's passage doesn't do that. She doesn't do that. She stares

steadily at her sin and she doesn't try and cover it up. So what happens when

all excuses have been taken into account, when all allowances have been made,

and when your past follows you everywhere you go, just like this woman? And when

the accusations abound, and worst of all, when the accusations are true and

valid, and when your heart also condemns you, what do you do then? Well, one of

the most mind-blowing things about the Gospel is that the one who knows you most

intimately is the very one who will be your defence and your advocate if you

humble yourself before him. Just like this woman did. I think one of the most

precious verses in the Bible to me is found in 1 John 3:19-20. It says, "By this

1 John 3:19–20

we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him. For

whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart and he knows

everything." The one who knows everything, your deepest, darkest secrets, will

be your defence if you trust him. Says in Isaiah 42:3 about Jesus, this was a

Isaiah 42:3

prophecy about Jesus, "A bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning

wick he will not quench." That's what we see in this story, in the way that

Jesus interacted with this woman. A bruised reed he will not break, a faintly

burning wick he will not quench. Something that Spurgeon said about this passage

was, he said that some like this Simon really struggle against the bounty of

grace. Like, how could such a woman as she be permitted to draw so near to

Christ? Certain people will demand, how should Jesus give to such unworthy ones

such acceptance, such manifestations of himself, such privileges. Our Lord took

upon himself to defend her, and therefore she might well afford to hold her

tongue. So shall it be with you. If Satan accuse you and your enemies with

loud-mouthed accusations cry out against you, you have an advocate with God the

Father. Your advocate is Jesus Christ the righteous, who will certainly plead

your cause and clear you. And that's what we see, Jesus pleading her cause and

clearing her. In verse 50, he said, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." And

Jesus addresses her directly, publicly, and with so much dignity. The one who

humbles himself will be exalted, we read in that other parable. And how she was

exalted here, in a room full of people, people whispering about her, condemning

her, he speaks to her and he leaves— she leaves with a pronouncement of peace

from the mouth of God. And look how he sees and rewards every expression of her

humility and contrition and gratitude and adoration, and how he exalts her. He

praises her for how, even though his guest gave him no water, that she was the

one who who wet, wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. His

guest gave him no kiss, but from the time he came in, she never ceased to kiss

his feet. He says all of this publicly in front of everyone who had been

condemning her, and she had no basis from which to make a defence, and she no

longer even has a need to do so. She doesn't even utter a word because he is her

defence. Because Jesus doesn't do the saving after we have done our part and

after we've made ourselves look presentable and after we've patched ourselves up

and brought ourselves into a savable state. Jesus said in Mark 2:17, "Those who

Mark 2:17

are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call

the righteous, but sinners." Jesus saves us at our worst. Another of my favourite

passages in the Bible is found in Romans 5:6-8. For while we were still weak, at

Romans 5:6–8

the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a

righteous person, though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die.

But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died

for us. Stunning, stunning. I'm going to leave you with this. In Psalm 103:12,

Psalms 103:12

it says, as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our

transgressions from us. So far does he remove our pasts from us. So in the

gospel, the only distance that is greater than that between you and a

righteousness of your own, or an innocence of your own, the only distance

greater than that is the distance that God places between you and your sin. So

thank you very much for listening, and I'll hand you back to Conversation

Street.

And there we go. Just had a blank screen. Um, thanks Pete, uh, as always, great

talk. So much, isn't there, when Pete talks? It's just, yeah, you're just like,

dude, this is insane. It's not insane, it's really good. I really enjoy it.

I think he's got like one of the best vocabularies. I can't even say the word

vocabulary. Um, but do you know what I mean? Like, he's got— he's such a great

wordy person. I love it. He's just— yeah.

So I really love the, the way that he rewrote what the conversation as it would

have been. But at the same time, I had to focus quite hard because the

vocabulary was quite extensive.

Yeah, it is. Shall I read it again? Because I have it here. Okay. Uh, I'm, I'm

all always a big fan of satire, um, in, in your Christian sermons. So, Simon, I

have something to say to you. We must stop essentialising this woman through the

harmful label of sinner. The language perpetuates stigma and reinforces

exclusionary power structures. Instead, we should affirm her authentic lived

experience and recognise that her behaviours emerged from a complex matrix of

socioeconomic disadvantage, patriarchal oppression, and structural inequity that

constrained her agency. I mean, this is just— it's poetry, isn't it?

It did make me chuckle inside because it's like, I can just see somebody

rewriting it like that.

Yeah, my favourite line: calls to repentance merely perpetuate shame culture,

which I thought was such a good line. Um, uh, what she needs is affirmation,

empowerment, and the redistribution of social power. Simon, I invite you into a

posture of radical allyship where you decenter your privilege, examine your

implicit biases, and participate in dismantling the system that produced this

harm.

I, I—

we could just talk about that all night. That, that single statement there wraps

up so much of what's true in culture at the moment, isn't it?

Yeah, we were just talking before, actually, um, me and Anna, before the

livestream went on, because I used to go into schools and do assemblies many

years ago. Um, we did Christian assemblies, so each time we went in, we would do

a different section of the Bible, just an easy, like, memory verse, and we would

teach the kids, and then we would teach them what it meant through games and,

um, little, I don't know, illustrations and stories and that kind of thing. And

one time we wanted to go and do the Four Points For those of you who don't know,

the Four Points is a simple way of kind of explaining why Jesus came. So the

Four Points are: God loves me, I have sinned, yeah, Jesus died for me, I need to

decide to live for God. Yeah. And I realised this would be quite controversial,

so I was like, we probably need to check that the schools are actually happy for

us to do this. And I remember one school in particular was happy for us to do

all of it apart from the line, "I have sinned." And it's like the rest kind of

falls apart if you don't include that, because then if you don't have that,

there's no need for Jesus to die. But it was that sense of we don't like to talk

about sin, and in some ways it is kind of a religious word, isn't it? Yeah, I

think there's, there's not really another word that necessarily in English gets

the meaning across.

But I think that that's maybe part of the problem, isn't it? That in our modern

culture, we don't really fully understand what the word sin means, or we don't—

it's quite a religious term, isn't it? Yeah. So if you haven't grown up in

church, it's hard to— it is hard to kind of explain what sin is. But really,

like, how it was always explained to me as growing up, growing up as a kid, was

that it's not about like a really, like, crazy wild lifestyle necessarily, or

being a really evil person, you know. Like, we, we think in those extreme terms,

don't we? But actually, how it's explained to me is just living selfishly and

anything that falls short of God's very, very best holy standard, which of

course is all of us every day. Like, you know, we all you know, around this

table, and, and, you know, other people around our lives, like, we all kind of

think of ourselves as okay people, you know, professional, you know, quite good

values, like, quite nice lives. Yeah, you know, we're good parents, we're nice

people, like, we're, you know, we're good Christian people, we try to do the

right thing. We're not perfect, but, but it is that lack of perfection, like,

lack of hitting God's perfect standard, and And that, that for me is like when

you actually strip back sin to not be like, oh, it's not, it's not saying people

are evil or really bad. It's saying they're falling short of God's very perfect

standard, which of course we all do because we're all a bit self-centred in the

end. Yeah. So yeah, that, that's kind of, I think so much of that therapising,

is that a word?

It's a great word. Yeah. Yeah.

Therapy and You know, it's not, it's not wrong. Like, all of that stuff that was

said about patriarchal society and different things that can damage people, it's

all true, isn't it? Like, the socioeconomic system does damage people, but it's

not— even if you took all that away and fixed all of that and somebody had a

much better quality of life and were less broken, it might take away their

brokenness but doesn't take away their sinfulness. And that sinfulness is

falling short of God's perfect standard. Yeah. So it's like, it still doesn't

take away that because, look, we've got all those things. We're nice, middle

class, well brought up, but we're still sinful. Yeah, like it doesn't fix that

stuff, does it? No. So in a way I'm like, yes, yes, all that stuff's fine, but

it doesn't fix the spiritual problem, which is our state before God. What do you

think, Matt?

I, I think it's a really interesting— I think it's a really interesting point,

Anna. And again, this comes back to the C.S. Lewis quote that when we, um, what

we're actually asking God to do when we ask for forgiveness is for God to accept

our excuses. And I, again, just— it's such a wonderful thing. And I think I get

that people go through stuff, right? I genuinely do. And I get that people go

through really bad stuff, um, and we all know stories, maybe from our own lives,

maybe from people that we know Um, and we all know the stories that come

through. And so I don't— I mean, you know, Pete's not being flippant when he

talks about these things at all. I think he has been, um, I think it is satire,

I really do. But I think that, um, we've conditioned ourselves to go, I'm okay

because of these excuses, right? So because I have this reason Therefore it's

not my fault. Therefore I don't have to accept any form of responsibility. Yeah,

for myself.

I totally relate to this because, um, I think the one of the first times that I

properly remember coming up against that, of, of having that revelation that I

was using excuses not to take on my own things, I was like, I'm like this

because of what they've done and not wanting to go actually, or not wanting to

look at my own sin because I was too busy blaming someone else. But when you

take the blame out of the way, it doesn't mean that that was okay. But I think

this actually, this passage, it takes it seriously. It takes our own sin

seriously, but it also takes seriously what was done to us. So it's like, you

know, everyone will be called to account, I think, for what for their part. So

if you have been wronged by somebody, they are responsible before God for that.

Yeah, but we're responsible for our bit. And then, and I also relate really well

to the bit where he was saying, when you know that you've been forgiven much,

that you love much. Again, I think of times when I've been sort of had that real

revelation of, oh, how dark my sin is. And again, I'm not talking big things,

things that other people would possibly just brush off. But when you get a sense

of that from God's point of view and you go, oh, actually this is really ugly,

and then receiving that forgiveness, it's just like, oh wow, this is actually

amazing to be fully seen but also to be fully loved at the same time. It's

incredible.

That's an interesting idea, isn't it? Or an interesting phrase, to be fully

seen. And again, Pete used that, didn't he? To be fully seen, to be fully known,

to fully understand everything, you know, the whole— all the reasons, um, to

fully understand your history, what has happened to you, um, and what's happened

maybe because of you. And I loved what Pete said at the end of that person who

knows everything becomes your greatest advocate, even on the bits— well, on the

bits that weren't your fault, but also on the bits that are, right? And, um,

that's not just— and again, we have to be really careful, I think, don't we?

Because that's not to say if you have suffered something horrific, you were at

blame in that one specific thing. That's not what we're saying at all. Um, but I

think what we are saying is None of us are perfect, and we've all done stuff

which the Bible calls sin, and we can't escape that. And we can, we can try and

come up with the excuses for it, um, but ultimately you have to stand before

Christ and go, I, I have to acknowledge my part in this whole life, not

necessarily one event that— or multiple events that were horrific. I think it's

just really important to be clear on that. Yeah, right.

Yeah, it reminds me as well of, um, Jesus. Obviously the, the Jewish people at

the time were expecting this Messiah to come, and in their head the Messiah was

gonna overthrow the Roman occupation or whoever they, you know, that was what at

the time. And Jesus comes along and doesn't do that, but goes, hang on a minute,

I actually want to talk about you. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, obviously there's

lots of bad things that happened within the Roman occupation, so it wasn't like

he was saying that's okay, but he's like, actually, let's take it even to

further down, and all of you are also sinners.

Um, but it's like at the heart of Christianity really then, isn't it, that you

know, that, that it's not enough to just change systems and structures and world

leaders. You know, there's a few we'd probably like to switch around right now

in the world, aren't there? But, but like, that in itself doesn't fix the

problem because one imperfect, self-centred, egotistical, usually male but not

always, leader is, you know, and then the next empire comes in to replace it.

Like removing empire and systems and doesn't fix the heart issue because it is a

personal heart issue in every person. Because you can keep removing those

things, can't you? But the core issue is inside me, inside you, inside each of

us. And Jesus— it's interesting that Jesus came and he was like exactly that. I

don't want to talk about the big systems. I want to talk about your heart and

your heart and each of our hearts. Yeah, because that's the only thing that

changes the world.

Yeah, if our hearts are right, then we will want to change the systems. Yeah.

Yeah, if our hearts aren't right, it's quite easy just to keep within those

systems.

But also, the only way that a system will change is everybody's heart is changed

towards God in that system.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. Uh, Alicia has put in the comments,

I struggle with the idea that I sin because of X or Y, but X and Y isn't the

point. The sin is the point. Um, which is very— I, I would agree. Um, actually,

it is the, the sin which is the point. What do you think to the— go on, you're

going to say something.

I was just going to say, I think the whole idea of struggling with recognising

our own sin and accepting forgiveness, it's sort of like what it leaves us with

is a sort of cheap grace. Like, if we can't fully recognise our sinful nature,

then we can't fully accept— yeah, like, receive God's forgiveness and God's

grace. And so the whole thing is like, it's like cheap. It's a cheap version.

Like, if we don't— yeah, it just feels like the— like you say, Sharon, the whole

thing falls apart.

Yeah, that's such a— it's such a— that the, the cheap grace idea is so powerful

because actually this is what we see, isn't it, in the, in the parable, um, with

Jesus, uh, and asking Simon, you know, the 50 versus 500 denarii Um, who's

forgiven more? And he walks straight into it, doesn't he? He goes, oh, and he—

and then Jesus turns around to him and says, yeah, but you didn't give me a

drink, which is what he should have done. Yeah, with hospitality. There was no

kiss, and he didn't give him water for his feet, right? So the things he should

have done as a religious leader, he didn't do because he was too busy condemning

somebody who was doing the things that he should have been doing, right?

It does make you wonder as well, because there's a good host— because it sounds

like they were already there, so Jesus had arrived before she came in, so he

should have done those things. So it's like, why didn't he? Maybe it was out of

a sense of pride or a bit like snubbing him a little bit, or— yeah, so there was

something going on there that wasn't great already.

Yeah, it's a good point, isn't it? But again, going back to the, the point

though, that Simon was experiencing a cheap grace, right? The back to your, your

phrase, Anna, whereas this woman who we don't know who she is. I mean, I know

that there's some theory that maybe it's Mary Magdalene. I would argue that it

isn't, um, not that we will form a theology out of it, but, um, there's, you

know, this, this woman has been forgiven much, and she has experienced a depth

of grace. She didn't argue with the— this is another point that came out— she

didn't argue with the fact that she was called a sinner. The narrator, Simon,

and Jesus all agree that her sins are many. I mean, for, you know, and she never

disagrees with that. She never excuses herself. She, she never— as to quote, uh,

Pete— she never says, 'I'm enough.' Um, and she experiences a profound grace as

a result, right? And I think It's a really interesting point, isn't it, that

you— to experience God's grace like that, I think you have got to come to a

place where there is this sort of revelation or this understanding of the sin in

our own heart, right?

Yeah, I've got— I've written down a few ideas on different ways that we can

respond when we— because I think we all notice that sin in our own lives,

although Although I would say sometimes I think people can feel guilty when

actually then they're not guilty. You know, if you've been trained to feel like

everything's your fault, there can be this false guilt that actually doesn't

belong.

Well, that's the other side of it, isn't it?

Yeah, but I think there is that sense of we, we don't always even meet our own

standards, let alone God's standards, and we know that we don't. So we've

either— we've got choices. We can deny that there's anything wrong and just like

push it aside. We can make excuses like Pete talked about, or we can change the

rules. So it can be a case of like, I wonder whether that's why we get, you

know, oh, it's my truth. We're the ones that make the rules so that we can kind

of fit the standard, whereas if we had to go by God's rules, it's like we fall

apart. Yeah. So there are three like not so helpful choices that I think we

have. Yeah. But then the one that we have here is actually to recognise it, sit

in it, and then receive that grace. Yeah, yeah.

Do you feel like part of the reason then that Simon is kind of a bit judgy, you

know, like we— it's easy, we can all be judgmental at times, but yeah, part of

the reason that he's so judgmental of this woman when she comes in and she has

this extravagant kind of lavish sort of, um, she just serves Jesus, doesn't she?

She's like at his feet and she's like lavishly gifts her like love on him, and

she's like not holding back. And he's kind of a little bit like scornful of it.

Yeah, I think that's kind of part of the cheap grace thing as well. Like, yeah,

it's almost like because he hasn't fully engaged with the process of

understanding his own sin and fully accepting forgiveness and his need for God's

mercy, he's not fully— he can't extend it to anyone else. So I think this whole

thing of being able to accept and, and see your own sinfulness and then accept

forgiveness also allows you to change your posture to other people. Like, yeah,

yeah, like you said, like, those who've been forgiven much love much. Yeah. Or

something like that, isn't it? And yeah, and I think he's got this quite harsh,

ungracious view of this woman who's come in, very broken woman, and he's quite

scornful of her. And I think that's part of the symptom of not really seeing

your own sin. Yeah. And having that process yourself. And so, yeah, it's all one

and the same, really. Like, it, it's, it prevents you receiving forgiveness, but

then it also prevents you extending it to other people too. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's the kind of the difference between religion, where you're trying to

do all the right things to make you feel like you're a good person, or actually

that relationship with God through Jesus, where you recognise your own sin and

shortcomings and receive God's grace. For one, you get more judgmental. The

other, yeah, you can be more gracious. Yeah, like you just said.

Well, there it's true, isn't it? Because that— he who has been forgiven much

loves much, right? And if you— and that's— here's the thing, that's not because

you've committed— if you've been forgiven much, I think it's because you've

acknowledged how much sin you have. And the person that's been forgiven little

is not because they're living a better life, it's just because they're a lot

more closed off to the sin that they've committed. Yeah, right. And I think—

here's my observation— we live in a culture that tries very hard to not accept

any kind of blame whatsoever, right? We've almost been conditioned— unless you

work in insurance industry or legal, because where there's a blameless client,

where there's a blame— where they— again, that's not your fault though, is it?

No, no, no, there's always no, no fault.

Yeah, it's always somebody else's fault, so we can sue them. Yeah. Um, but

because we've been conditioned not to accept any kind of blame, I would argue to

say that one of the most beautiful things about Christianity is getting to a

place where you fully face that blame. And it's a really hard thing to do, but

actually when you do, that's when you experience being forgiven much, right?

It's, it's, it leads to something extraordinarily wonderful when you acknowledge

that sin. Whereas if you don't, and if you're closed off to it, and we do this

blame other people, give excuses, we don't experience the fullness of God's

grace. And I think we miss out as a result, right?

We've got a question here. It says, might sound a bit stupid, but any advice on

actually accepting God's forgiveness? That is totally not a stupid question.

That's a very good question. I'll throw that one out there.

Any advice? Yes, um, always. I think first, you— to accept God's forgiveness,

you have to be willing, like we've just said, to accept, um, or to take

responsibility for your— the state of your heart, for your own sin, right? And

be totally open and blunt about that and No holds barred. We're not looking for

things, right? The Holy Spirit will bring things up. It's not like you need to

go back to your childhood and repent of, you know, ask God's forgiveness for

licking your mate's ice cream. It's, it's not— do you know what I mean? It's not

that kind of thing unless God shows you. Unless God shows you. Yeah, yeah.

That's the beautiful thing. The Holy Spirit sort of puts that on your heart,

right? And I think if you're not a Christian, you— one of the things you, you do

when you, when you become a Christian is you face— actually, you go to this idea

that actually I have sinned, and therefore, you know, I need to come to Christ

and ask forgiveness. And all through your walk with God, there will be occasions

when that happens. When that does happen, when God illuminates something, you

get it before God there and then. I think I would probably talk to— depending on

what it is, talk to a trusted counselor or friend, um, or pastor or whoever, um,

about it. Bring accountability. I think when it comes to those kind of things

sin left in darkness is never great, but when you talk about it with other

people, it brings it into the light. And then, like you said earlier on, I think

it's, it's really easy with religion to live a shameful life, in a life full of

shame, um, is what I'm saying. I mean, it's like you have been forgiven and

there is a grace The grace doesn't leave you the way you were. It points to who

he is, and it transforms you into what you, you are. And I think we find it

really easy to live under the guilt and the shame of past sins. And so you find

yourself going through this repeat, rinse and repeat cycle of constantly asking

God to forgive you for the same things, um, and it, it can bring that guilt and

shame. And I think that's I think that's one of the side effects. I think on, on

one hand, a lot of people need to experience more shame. I mean, they ain't no

shame in your game, as they say. Um, but on the other hand, I think once you

have brought it to God and he has forgiven you, there is no need to feel shame

about that. And we don't need to live these lives full of shame.

I find it really useful in that the Bible often talks about sin in terms of

debt, as if like a money debt, although obviously it's not money. So either when

we've been sinned against, it's like someone owes us a debt, or if we sin

against God, it's like we owe God. And so I found it useful to actually write

out the stuff that the Holy Spirit's bringing up. Yeah. And almost like, um,

what's it, like an accounting sheet of like, yeah, this, this, this, and then

pray through each one and just like, ask God for help, because we do need help

with this sometimes, don't we? And the passage that, um, oh, it was read out

about why we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Yeah, I found that really

helpful in terms of, okay, Jesus died for me even before this happened. So it's

like he, he's fully aware of all that. And so to pray through each one of the

things on my list And then as I've prayed through them, that it's like actively

choosing to receive that forgiveness. Because you can, in your head, you can

have like a block up, like, I can't receive that. It's like making that choice,

okay, I receive that, and then crossing it off the bit of paper, like, okay,

that debt's paid. And like, then thanking God, okay, Jesus, I accept. Like,

actually speaking out loud, going, Jesus, I, I, um, confess I've done this. I, I

receive your forgiveness for this, and I accept that you've washed that

completely clean. And I think that's really important.

Um, it's a really important point to make that you do that process and then it's

done. It's like a once-and-done thing. You don't have to keep revisiting or keep

feeling bad. And if you do find yourself in that cycle, then talk to someone

about it because you need to deal with that. That's not where God wants you

going round and round and round the same sins.

I think that's another reason I find it helpful to have that bit of paper,

because yeah, if you do remember it again, you can go, hang on a minute, now

I've, I've prayed through that one, that one is cancelled, that debt's

cancelled, I don't owe that anymore. And then you can— and, and I think if

you're someone who's used to just going round and round, though, I've not been

forgiven, it can take a while for your brain to just be like you know, to keep

choosing to believe that you've been forgiven. Um, so that can take a bit of

practice, I think.

Yeah, but you do get there, don't you? Yeah, you do. Uh, Stephanie has put in

the comments, are we missing how radical Jesus was being culturally? Simon was

absolutely right to say what he did. Yes, he was. Um, Jesus is rejecting

everything the religion of the day said was important. Is he rejecting it, or is

he, is he giving a greater standard maybe, or he's bringing a greater grace

perhaps, um, replacing, replacing it maybe? But what do you think to Stephanie's

comment? Are we missing how radical Jesus was being?

I mean, yeah, Jesus was totally radical, and that's the whole point of this

series, isn't it? Like, Jesus is a revolutionary. He he took what the religious

structures of the time did, and he said, "No, no, no, that's not how it works.

I've got something so much better for you," which is this radical kind of

forgiveness. If you confess your sins, you're forgiven. You know, and there's

not this constant need to keep fulfilling the law and requirements. You know,

the rules, keep following the rules, keep being good enough out of your own

strength. He blows that out of the water and says, No, no, you'll never be good

enough in your own strength. You've gotta ask me for the help. Give me your sin,

ask me for the help, let me kind of take you to where you can never take

yourself, which is to be free.

Um, that's a beautiful thing, isn't it? Because again, when you look at the

story with the— with what the woman's doing, um The one thing I didn't really

touch on it, but it's worth understanding, um, the one thing that's one of the

things that's really important in this story is the hair detail, right? Um, I'm

not going to make any jokes about women and hair, but, um, the hair detail is

genuinely scandalous. A respectable woman in that culture kept her hair bound up

in public. Letting it down was intimate, reserved for the home. And so she ends

up wiping his feet with her loosed hair. Um, and this is far bolder and more

socially shocking than it reads to us, right? And this is a really interesting

point. So back to your point about how radical Jesus is being— actually, this

woman's also been a little bit radical, and Jesus is not responding to the fact

she's let her hair down. Again, going back to Stephanie's point about not

dialing into what people thought was important at the time, but genuinely

getting to the fact that this woman was doing something because she had

experienced the grace of God that day.

It reminds me of that verse in the Bible that says, um, you know, humans,

mankind, look at the outside appearance, but God looks at the heart. Yeah. And,

and I think that's what Jesus was doing in this moment. Like, everyone else in

the room was like, that's so culturally shocking, she's overstepped the line,

women shouldn't behave like that, especially not in those days. It's like, you

know, I've read that it's equivalent of like kind of, you know, being very, very

forward with a married man or something in front of a big group of people. And

yet Jesus doesn't look at the outside appearance. He sees straight to a heart.

And a heart is right. Like, their actions might seem culturally shocking at the

time, but her heart was right for Jesus, and that's what he saw. So I think

that's really interesting. It's like that dynamic of everyone else is like, but

that's not what culture or religiosity says we should do. Yeah, but Jesus sees

her heart is like just so in love with him and wants to—

and that's, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, that's a— it's a lovely thing as

well, isn't it? It just, it's like Jesus was okay with it, you know. Um, Alicia

said, uh, you've articulated something I've been struggling to put into words. I

frequently ask for forgiveness for the same sins, especially during a depressive

episode where self-hatred gets strong. Any thoughts on that?

Um, well, she said that what we talked about kind of spoke to that already, so

It's interesting, the self-hatred comment jumps out to me.

Yeah, in the sense that, um, I— again, I think that Romans 8 says there's no

condemnation. We use this a lot in church, right? There is therefore now no

condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. It's like a chapter after, um,

where Paul says, um, you know, we've all sinned, as we all fall short of the

glory of God. Um, and he goes on to say He talks about it like a— he calls it

the body of death. Um, in Romans 7, there's this sort of really fascinating

language with how Paul describes this sort of life being trapped in this sort of

circle of sin, for want of a better expression. And he calls it a body of death.

And right at the end of chapter 7, he says, who's going to rescue me, um, from

this body of death? And he says, um, thanks be to our Lord and Savior Jesus

Christ. And he goes, therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in

Christ Jesus. And I think there's a difference between conviction and

condemnation, right? So the Holy Spirit can convict you of your sin, in which

case my advice is repent of it, don't try and hide from it. Easier said than

done. But, and to repent, by the way, just means to turn around, just means

confess it and don't do it anymore, just, you know, change your behaviour. But

there So there's a difference between conviction and condemnation. Condemnation

comes from, you know, a source that is pure evil. And I think that loathing,

that self-hatred, that condemnation, that shame never comes from God. There's a

really interesting verse, uh, that says it is the goodness or the kindness of

God that leads you to repentance. Not the anger of God, not the God sitting down

judging you with the finger. And it is the goodness, it is the kindness of God

that when you understand that, it leads you to this place where you can repent.

Repent, turn around, to acknowledge your sin, to turn around from it, to not do

it anymore, to change your ways, to change your behaviour, and to put that to one

side because you want to do something which pleases God. You want to do

something which is more fulfilling. And so we, we do that. Um, but you're right,

you can get caught up in this whole cycle of self-hatred, um, and condemnation

if you're not careful. And so I think it's important to acknowledge that and

acknowledge that's not from God.

Yeah, I think for all of us that our mind is a battlefield, um, and that can be

made worse if you do suffer from depression for whatever reason. Um, but the

Bible again talks about being transformed by the renewing of your mind, and

that's kind of like an active— like, um, if a thought comes into our heads, we

don't have to believe it, although it can be very hard not to. And we can be

like, okay, this thought's come in, but I recognise that's not true. And even

though I might feel it's true right now, I'm going to reject that thought and

I'm going to accept God's truth. Yeah. And I think over time your feelings can

change with that. Might not be instant. I've definitely had times where my

feelings have said one thing and I've been like, hang on a minute, that's not

actually true what I'm feeling and thinking. But to get me from where that's my

normal state to the normal state being like, oh yeah, I actually can feel this

now, sometimes can take a very long time. Um, so yeah, I just wouldn't Don't

give up.

Very good. Well, I'm aware of time, ladies. Uh, feels like we're just getting

warmed up in our conversation.

Yeah, there's so much more I've got in my head, but yeah.

So, uh, quickly in closing then. Well, let's do that. Any final thoughts,

comments from you?

I just need to gather my thoughts.

Okay, I'll go to Anna first.

Um, I just think, yeah, don't— for me, that this whole area is like not about

going searching for stuff. They don't go picking back through all your history

in the past, but just as you said, like when you're praying, when you're

spending time with God, if the Holy Spirit, um, brings something up in God's

presence or gives you a little nudge and you— something drops into your mind,

then go with that. But don't start digging all your past up just for the sake of

it. I suppose that was the only other point I wanted to make. Yeah, let it be

God-led, otherwise it is just really you revisiting. Yeah, your own past over

and over.

Very good. Very true.

Yeah, a little one. So one of the things I like about this story is that Jesus

took the woman's shame. So see, when she came in with her hair down, that was

seen as shameful, and all the— her actions were seen as shameful. And so all the

crowd would have been focused on her as, this is a shameful woman. But rather

than Jesus joining in and going, oh yeah, she's wrong, and keeping the shame on

her, he deflects it and takes it onto himself by treating her very differently

and actually treating her with respect. And yeah, actually going, actually,

she's got it right. Um, yeah. And I think there's lots of different stories

where that happens, where the crowd are on an individual, like the same as

Zacchaeus and others, where— yeah, and then Jesus just shifts their thinking and

takes the focus off them and puts it all on himself. And that's what we see him

do on the cross, isn't it? Yeah, he takes the shame. So if you are feeling

shame, you don't— you don't need to be carrying that. It's like that's what

Jesus came to take from us. Yeah, very good. Very good.

Yeah, I think I— my final comment would be this: be radical.

Um, in a good way. In a good way.

Yeah, I just— in the sense that we see Jesus, who is a radical Savior and

radically forgiving, radically accepting, radically restoration. Grace is a

radical concept. It's all very, very radical. But the woman was radical in the

story. She was radical in the sense there was no holds barred, there was no

excuses, there was no blame. There was just her and Jesus. And in this beautiful

moment, she experiences grace because of her radical honesty. Um, and I would

just be radical, um, and you'd experience God's grace. Because I love what Pete

said, um, the guy that sees everything becomes your advocate, uh, and, um, the

Bible tells us he lives to make intercession for us, which is just Very good.

Jesus is praying for us right now, which is awesome on so many levels. Anyway,

uh, I'm aware of time. We've run over a little bit, uh, the conversation, uh,

went, went on. Uh, I loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. Thank you, ladies.

Uh, can I encourage you, if you've not been to the Crowd website before, go to

www.crowd.church. It is a brand new, launched this week website. So I need an

army of people to go to the website and tell, tell us everything that is wrong

about that website. Any errors, any issues, let us know because we need to get

those sorted out. We just need an army of testers. Um, but this, the new site is

live, which is great. There's a few things we still need to, uh, do on it, but

check it out, crowd.church. Um, if you are not a member of a church yet, we

would love for you to think about joining Crowd. You'd be more than welcome

here. We have communities, uh, in midweek if you'd like to join an online

community group. I know for some people you want to build that community

fellowship online. You'd be more than welcome to join us. In just a few seconds,

we are going to go to Live Lounge. So are you going to put the thing in the

comments? So it's going to put the link in the comments, uh, for Live Lounge,

um, and we will see you in there. It is go.crowd.church meet. Um, and Sharon

will be in there, Anna will be in there, we'll be in there just only for like 5

or 10 minutes. There's only— and it's not like thousands of people come into

Live Lounge, by the way. Um, a handful of people come in. Come and say hello to

everyone if you would like to. Um, come and say, how's it? Uh, but yeah, go

visit crowd.church. Next week we have Ade speaking. Um, Dan is hosting. I want

to say Mike Harris is hosting. Uh, and, and you're not hosting that much.

I do not hosting now. No, no, that's it.

You're done for the year.

Um, not for the entire year, like, not if we're staying for the whole of 2026,

but for the summer.

For the summer, yes, absolutely. Uh, by the way, we'll be at Wildfires. All

three of us will be at Wildfires. So if you're going to be at the Wildfires, uh,

conference— festival, that's a better word— if you're going to be at the

Wildfires Festival this year, uh, do come find us, do come say hello. We would

love to meet you in person. Um, but that's it from Sharon, from Anna, from

myself. Have a wonderful week wherever you are in the world. Uh, we'll see you

next week. God bless you. Bye for now.