The Gospel and the Latter Day Saints

Well, good evening. My name's Elder Brown. I'm from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Collington Road.

Well, actually, you'll be glad to know that's not the case. I'm just checking you're awake on a Sunday afternoon.

I'm Andrew Brown. I have the privilege to attend a Charlotte Chapel church plant, Christ Church Queensferry in Queensferry.

And I've been asked to come and share with you a little about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And I'd like to start out by admitting I'm not an expert in Mormon theology, but I do have a little experience in the area.

I once attended the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses in Edinburgh.

And after God opened my eyes to that false teaching, he gave me a real heart to reach out to those who would profess belief in Jesus,

but also deny what God has revealed about himself in the scripture.

So, before we dive into their beliefs, let's turn to God once more in prayer.

Lord, as we examine false teaching about who you are and what you've done, may it drive us ever closer to you.

God, help us to be like those Bereans in Acts 17, who were searching the scriptures daily to find out if what Paul taught them was true.

Lord, help us to accept that even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags before you, a perfectly holy God.

But despite our condition, we thank you that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Father, help us to have right motives when we engage those of a different faith.

Help us to view them like Jesus, a sheep without a shepherd, and have compassion on them.

God, drive out that desire to win arguments.

Help us to remember that there's a soul at stake.

Lord, give us energy and attentiveness this evening.

Help me accurately represent the beliefs and teachings of the LDS Church.

And I ask that our time together would bring you glory.

And that in coming days and years, there will be conversations that would lead to salvation.

In Jesus' name. Amen.

Amen.

Well, to put you at ease after telling you I was from the LDS Church, maybe I'll put your minds at rest by reading a Spurgeon quote.

This is what he said.

If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is.

Lay a straight one down beside it, and the work is well done.

Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence.

That kind of, I think, illustrates my attitude to dealing with those of a different faith.

You don't need to know exactly what they believe to share the truth with them.

That being said, I think sessions like this are useful.

Because if you know some of the preconceptions that are in their mind when you use certain terms,

it will help you share the truth with them.

You'll probably have bumped into young missionaries like the ones on the screen.

Though, maybe not recently because of COVID.

I've found how they're getting their message out as offering you free books of Mormon on social media.

But, if you did meet them, or bump into them in person,

they'll be wearing those little black badges, and they'll say,

Elder, or Sister, so and so.

The male missionaries are here for about two years,

and the female missionaries come for about 18 months.

So, why bother sharing the gospel with them?

Because if you chat to them, they'll say,

Of course, I'm a Christian just like you.

I believe in Jesus.

Jesus, I've accepted the gospel.

Well, I hope by the time we're finished this evening,

you'll have some idea why I believe they really need the gospel.

To set the scene with me,

imagine I come and tell you,

I really know Graham Shanks.

We agree, of course, he's the pastor of this church.

Absolutely.

No argument there.

No disagreement.

If I can be so bold,

I know I'm better than you do.

He's got fiery ginger hair.

He's seven foot tall.

Lives in Holyrood Palace.

And he even keeps a pet tiger.

Well, do I really know Graham?

I'm saying I know him.

We've both already agreed he's the pastor.

But does the way I'm describing to you show I really know him?

Or am I describing something that's based kind of in reality,

but let's face it, that's not Graham, is it?

So, I'd like to bring you to the words that Jesus said in John 8, 24.

He said this,

Unless you believe that I am,

you will die in your sin.

What we believe about Jesus really matters.

It's the difference between life and death.

These folks, they're putting their trust in Jesus.

A Jesus that I would argue does not exist.

And personally, that breaks my heart.

For me,

and don't get,

all of us need salvation.

But these people will go to eternity.

And I believe they will be the ones that may hear,

Lord, Lord,

did we not in your name do many marvelous works?

And they'll say,

I never knew.

Because they're not putting their trust

in the Jesus that is revealed in Scripture.

A Jesus that is invented in a human's mind

cannot save you.

Now, please don't mishear me when I say that.

It is not having a perfect theological understanding

of Jesus or who God is that will save you.

That's impossible with our human minds.

We're talking about an infinite God.

But if we're denying truth

that he has revealed to us,

how can we really be saying we're worshiping?

Jesus said also in John,

we must worship God in spirit and in truth.

As I understand it,

that's saying we must worship God

for who he has revealed himself to be.

We cannot, as I said earlier,

worship God and reject what he has revealed

about himself to us.

So where does that leave us here in Edinburgh?

There's lots of people who have lots of opinions

about who Jesus is.

You'll be hearing about some of them

as you go through your series.

We have Islam that teaches Jesus is only a prophet.

He's not the son of God.

He didn't die on a cross.

Likewise, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus isn't God.

Rather, they teach he's the Archangel Michael

in human form.

Which brings us to what the focus of our topic is tonight.

What is the LDS view of God?

There are many things we could discuss.

You'll see some of them on the slide just there.

We could talk about Joseph Smith's history.

We could talk about the polygamy in the church.

That might be quite interesting.

We could even talk about the odd underwear

they choose to wear.

Or the secret handshakes that they've nicked

from the Freemasons.

While all these might be very interesting topics,

and I'd enjoy chatting to you about them,

these are not the heart of the issue.

I believe the main focus of any evangelism encounter,

in fact, any gospel-centered conversation you have,

should have these two things involved.

Who is God?

And what is the gospel?

Due to our limited time,

I'll really only have time to unpack

the first of these questions.

But I'd like to give you a little flavor

of how they view the gospel.

I don't think I'm being unfair

if I describe what they believe

as works-based righteousness.

The Book of Mormon said God saves you

after all you can do.

And just a little plug for a YouTube site

I really like, Lutheran Satire,

you should check out their video

on the Mormon gospel.

I think you'll get a little laugh.

But ultimately, there is a really serious message there.

Salvation after all we can do

is no gospel at all.

Joseph Smith, when he translated Romans 4 or 5,

turned it totally on its head.

He said, God does not justify the ungodly.

We're doomed if that's the case.

We have no hope if that's the case.

But before we understand how we approach God,

we probably need to know who he is.

So what I'd like to focus on tonight is

what is the LDS view,

or the Latter-day Saint view, of God?

You'll see their own website on the screen behind me.

I'd just like to read it to you.

Latter-day Saints view members of the Godhead

in a manner that corresponds in a number of ways

with the views of others in the Christian world.

Both significant differences.

Latter-day Saints pray to God the Father

in the name of Jesus Christ.

They acknowledge the Father

as the ultimate object of their worship,

the Son as Lord and Redeemer,

and the Holy Spirit as the messenger

and revelator of the Father and the Son.

But where the Latter-day Saints differ

from other Christian religions

is in their belief that God and Jesus Christ

are glorified physical beings,

and that each member of the Godhead

is a separate being.

I've highlighted some words

from what I've just read,

because I want you to pay particular attention,

because probably quite a lot of you thought,

even me at first reading went,

fair enough,

nothing overly controversial there, right?

Sounds pretty legitimate.

But what I want you to notice is,

and I'll stop at this several times,

if you don't get,

if you don't define your terms,

you can find yourself agreeing to a lot

that you don't actually agree to.

So how would an LDS person define being here?

Well, quite straightforward, they mean God.

So the LDS view of the Godhead

is there are three separate gods,

all who have their own physical bodies,

who are part of the Godhead

because they work together.

So,

how does that differ from what we believe?

Forgive me for taking the time to clarify it,

but I think it is important.

Because rather than the Father,

the Son, and the Holy Spirit

being all distinct persons,

but by one nature God,

they believe they're all separate gods.

I know I've probably dived in quite deep,

quite quickly.

So please,

allow me to conduct this little thought experiment,

and hopefully the slide behind us

will keep us where we need to be.

If you are up for it,

you can close your eyes,

that might help,

but that's your choice.

Imagine with me

if I threw a rock at your head.

I won't,

I promise,

don't even have a rock on me,

but imagine with me

for a moment if I did.

Smack.

Hits you in the side of the head.

Why does it hurt?

Well,

it has being,

it exists,

it's a rock,

it's hard,

it's harder than your head,

it's going to hurt.

It has being,

it exists.

Imagine with me,

instead of you complaining to me,

hey,

hold on a second,

why did you throw that rock at me?

Instead you turned to the rock

and went,

oh,

you nasty rock,

how dare you hit me

in the side of the head?

Will it care?

Not in the slightest,

because it's not a person.

So,

when we say we believe

that there is

one being of God,

but three persons,

we're talking about

two different categories.

We're talking about

what God is,

and then we're talking about

who God is.

We relate to God

as Father,

Son,

and Holy Spirit.

They're all

individual persons.

We can clearly see this

at Jesus' baptism.

There's the Father in heaven,

the Holy Spirit

descending like the dove,

Jesus in the water.

Three separate persons.

All one God.

One of my favorite passages

in scripture is

Philippians 2,

because it tells us

just how amazing Jesus is.

Though being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God

something he held onto.

But he emptied himself,

taken on the form of a servant,

and humbled himself

by becoming obedient unto death,

even death on a cross.

Jesus,

in very nature God.

We read from Isaiah.

There is only one.

From everlasting

to everlasting,

but we'll come on to that

more shortly.

One of the really interesting

things I find

when I've been chatting

to the Mormon missionaries

or the Latter-day Saints,

as they prefer now it is,

is that

when they talk about God,

they're actually

one of the most polytheistic

religions on the planet.

And that just means

they have an endless

number of gods.

To them,

God the Father

once

lived on a planet

as a man

and

had a God

who had a God

who had a God

who had a God.

I'm guessing you get the idea.

They believe in what's called

the law

of eternal regression.

Gods

that have gods

that have gods.

you can probably see

why I'd argue

Islam is even closer

to Christianity

than Mormonism is.

They believe

that God the Father

has not always

been God.

I don't know

how you can read

the passage

that we looked at tonight

and think

that God

became God.

I'll give you

Joseph Smith's own words.

After the death

of one of the elders

in the early Mormon church

called Elder King Follett,

Joseph Smith

gave a speech

to

commemorate

the elder's life.

And I'd like to read you

some of the words.

Again,

you can follow along with me.

God himself

was once

as we are now

and is

an exalted man.

He sits enthroned

in yonder heavens.

That

is the great secret.

I'm going to tell you

how God

came to be God.

We have imagined

and supposed

that God was God

from all eternity.

I will refute

that idea

and take away

the veil

so that you may see.

He was once

a man like us.

Yeah,

that God himself,

the Father of us,

all

dwelt

on an earth.

It wasn't just

Joseph Smith.

The fifth president

of the Mormon church,

Lorenzo Snow,

he came up

with this little couplet

to summarize

their belief,

if you like.

As man

is now,

God once was.

As God is now,

man may become.

Incredible

if you're familiar

with

standard

Christian historic

teaching, right?

But that is

what they believe.

What do they believe

about Jesus?

Well,

they identify

Jesus

as Jehovah

of the Old Testament.

You might be

wondering,

hold on a second,

I thought you said

they didn't identify

God the Father

and Jesus

as the one God.

Well,

they don't.

They believe

that the name

Jehovah

exclusively refers

to Jesus

and they believe

the term

Elohim

or the Hebrew word

for God

refers to

God the Father.

This brings us

back to something

I mentioned earlier.

Anytime you're

talking to

someone from

the LDS church,

anytime they use

a term

or word,

pause for a second

and just say,

how do you

understand that?

What do you mean

when you say that?

You'll find it

really is

very,

very necessary.

Otherwise,

you could be

agreeing with them

for hours

and in the end

realize,

well,

you don't believe

the same thing

at all.

And probably

a really quite

easy example

of this is

the virgin birth.

We'll both go,

yeah,

of course we believe

in the virgin birth.

Mormons will go,

yeah,

believe in the virgin birth,

sure.

But,

the Mormon means

Mary was a virgin

because she had

intercourse with God

rather than with a man.

Not really what we

believe,

is it?

Brigham Young

put it this way,

the birth of the

saviour was as

natural as births

of our children.

It was the result

of a natural action.

He,

particularly flesh

and blood,

was begotten of

his father

as we were

of our fathers.

We could also agree

Jesus is the only

begotten son,

right?

That's a term

we're familiar with,

I would hope.

What does the LDS

person mean by that?

Well,

Mormons believe

we're all spirit

children,

they actually believe

we existed before

our physical birth,

and we're all

spirit children

of heavenly father

and mother.

Yeah,

you heard me

correctly.

They do believe

God the Father

has a wife,

at least one.

I'd like to read

you again

an LDS publication.

This is from

Messages of the

First Presidency.

Jesus,

however,

is the firstborn

among all the

sons of God,

the first begotten

in the spirit

and the only begotten

in the flesh.

He is our elder

brother,

and we,

like him,

are in the image

of God.

All men and women

are in the

similitude of the

universal father

and mother,

and are literally

sons and daughters

of deity.

What more is

needed to convince

us that both

man,

sorry,

that man,

both in spirit

and body,

is in the image

and likeness of God,

and that God

himself is in the

form of a man?

I hope by this

point you get

why I strongly

believe they need

the gospel.

They need to

hear the truth,

so how might

we share it

with them?

Well,

to be honest,

although I

started,

I asked one

of my favorite

passages to read

to the Mormon

missionaries to be

read at the start,

very,

very often,

if you do read

them a verse that

goes directly

against the

teachings of

their church,

they'll just say,

hold on a second

though,

we only believe

the Bible as

far as it's

been translated

correctly.

So,

how do we

get around

that?

Well,

hands up,

I don't speak

Hebrew or

Greek,

so I can't

really say if

something's been

translated correctly,

but thankfully,

we have

wonderful things

called interlinear

translations,

so they can be

helpful.

However,

they don't have

any concerns

about the

translation of

the Book of

Mormon.

So,

actually,

that's the

approach I use

when I'm

talking with

the Mormon

missionaries.

It's not

because I

believe the

Book of

Mormon is

true,

it's because

they do.

So,

we can ask

several questions

of the

Book of

Mormon.

You see,

the LDS

missionaries

are coming

to you,

and they're

asking you

to pray

about whether

their church

is true

based on

the Book

of Mormon,

and they're

asking you

to judge

whether Joseph

Smith is a

prophet based

on the

Book of

Mormon.

So,

we can ask

those questions.

For example,

what does the

Book of Mormon

teach about

God?

Who is

God?

I think that's

a fair question

to ask the

Mormon

missionaries.

I've already

read to you

what their

church teaches

about God.

But is that

what the

Book of Mormon

says?

Well,

I'd argue

no.

No,

it isn't.

I think the

Book of Mormon

is very clear.

There's only

one God,

and that

that God

is the

Father,

the Son,

and the

Holy Spirit.

I'd like to

read to you

from the

Book of Mormon,

and I hope

you won't

get your

pitchforks

and chase

me out.

This is

2 Nephi

31,

21.

And now

behold,

my beloved

brethren,

this is the

way,

and there

is none

other way,

nor name

given under

heaven,

whereby man

can be

saved in

the kingdom

of God.

And now

behold,

this is the

doctrine of

Christ,

and the

only and

true doctrine

of the

Father,

and of the

Son,

and of the

Holy Ghost,

which is

one God

without end.

Amen.

Confused

you?

That's not

what their

church teaches,

right?

Just in

case you

think it's

a one-off

verse that

slipped in

there from

somewhere.

I'd like to

read you

another one.

Alma 11,

44.

Now,

this

restoration

shall come

to all,

both old

and young,

both bond

and free,

both male

and female,

both the

wicked and

the righteous,

and even

there shall

not be so

much as a

hair of

their heads

be lost.

But everything

shall be

restored to

its perfect

frame,

as it is

now,

or in the

body,

and shall

be brought

and be

reassigned

before the

bar of

Christ,

the Son,

and God

the Father,

and the

Holy Spirit,

which is

one eternal

God,

to be

judged

according to

their works,

whether they

be good,

or whether

they be

evil.

I can't

reiterate

enough,

or you

must ask

them,

please explain

to me

what you

mean by

the terms

you use.

We could

also ask

them,

what sort

of being

is God?

I hope

I've already

shown that

their church

teaches that

God was once

a man

on their

planet,

but is

that what

the Book

of Mormon

says?

Forgive me

again for

turning there,

but Alma

18,

24-28.

And Ammon

began to

speak unto

them with

boldness,

and said

unto him,

Believest

thou that

there is

a God?

And he

answered,

and said

unto him,

I do

not know

what that

meaneth.

And Ammon

said,

Believest

thou there

is a

great

spirit?

And he

said,

Yea.

And Ammon

said,

This is

God.

And Ammon

said unto

him again,

Believest

thou that

this great

spirit,

who is

God,

created

all things

which are

in heaven

and in

the earth?

And just

a few

chapters

later,

and the

king said,

God is

that great

spirit that

brought our

fathers out

of the land

of Jerusalem.

Sorry.

Is God

that great

spirit that

brought our

fathers out

of the land

of Jerusalem?

And Aaron

said unto

him,

Yea,

he is that

great spirit,

and he

created all

things both

in heaven

and in

earth.

Believest

thou this?

And he

said,

Yea,

I believe

that the

great spirit

created all

things,

and I

desire that

you should

tell me

concerning

all these

things,

and I

will

believe

thy

words.

Just go

into the

LDS

website,

you'll find

clearly under

the definition

of God

the Father,

he has a

body of

flesh and

bones as

tangible as

man's.

Bizarre.

But it is

what they

believe.

There are

many,

many

articulate

Mormons who

will give

you explanations

for these

things.

But what

if we just

ask the

Book of

Mormon,

was God

once a

man on

another

planet?

Again,

the

Book of

Mormon

says no.

The

first

verse I'd

like to

read you

is a

direct

quotation

of

Malachi

3.6

For I

am the

Lord,

I

change

not,

therefore

the

sons of

Jacob

are not

consumed.

Or how

about this,

which is

a combination

of two

verses,

you're

probably

familiar

with,

Hebrews

13.8

and

James

1.17

For do

we not

read that

God is

the same

yesterday,

today,

and forever?

And in

him there

is no

variableness,

neither

shadow of

changing.

God is

God.

And what I

particularly

like,

given that

they believe

that God

was once

a man

on their

planet,

Moroni

8.18

For I

know that

God is

not a

partial

God,

neither a

changeable

being,

but he

is unchangeable

from all

eternity to

all

eternity.

And just

to remind

you of

what the

church

teaches,

this is

Brigham Young,

who was

one of the

followers of

Joseph Smith,

and his

writings said

this,

The doctrine

that God

was once a

man and

has progressed

to become a

God is

unique to

this church.

How do

you feel

knowing that

God,

through his

own

experience,

knows all

that we

know regarding

the toils

and sufferings

of mortality?

So much

contradiction.

So much

confusion.

Why?

Well, I

don't think

I'm being

unfair to

them to

say that

the current

prophet of

the LDS

church can

reinterpret

scripture to

their own

view.

They can

add to

revolution.

They can

change

revolution.

They even

have a little

phrase that

says,

a live

prophet

trumps a

dead one.

So forget

about the

one said

before,

if it

doesn't

agree with

what the

current

one believes.

In fact,

sometimes

the prophet's

own views

change with

time.

I would

strongly argue

that this

was the

case with

Joseph Smith.

It's why

we can have

such seemingly

clear Trinitarian

statements in

the Book of

Mormon, but

yet later in

his life when

he's talking

at the funeral

of Elder

King Follett,

he's telling

you God

was once

a man

on the

planet.

In

conclusion,

I'd like

to re-emphasize

what I

mentioned

earlier.

What I've

given you

tonight is

hopefully just

a starting

point to

delving into

what does

the Bible

really teach

about God?

Because like

I started

off with

that Spurgeon

quote,

you need

to know

the truth

so you

can lay

it beside

false

teachings.

You don't

have to

memorize any

of the

verses I've

mentioned

to start

a conversation.

But please,

please,

please,

if you're

starting

conversations

with folks

of other

faith,

let your

elders know.

The reality

is we are

in a

spiritual

battle.

Our warfare

is not

against flesh

and bone.

I believe

there's

demonic

forces behind

the teachings

of the LDS

church and

many of the

other groups

you will come

to hear about.

It's a serious

issue.

It shouldn't

be taken

lightly.

It shouldn't

just be engaged

in because

you want to

win an

argument.

These are

people's souls

that are at

stake.

It's not

to be taken

lightly.

Please,

please involve

your elders

if you're

meeting with

missionaries,

Jehovah's

witnesses,

anyone of

a different

faith.

Once again,

when you

talk to

them,

ask them

what they

believe.

Give them

time.

One of the

most fruitful

conversations I

had with

LDS

missionaries

was over

pizza.

Sit with

them.

Get to

know them.

If it may

be so,

be like

Jesus.

Eat with

the tax

collectors

and sinners

of which,

believe it or

not,

you're one.

I am a

sinner.

Bond with

them.

Be a

friend.

You never

know where

it might

lead.

I pray it

leads to

their

salvation.

As I

mentioned,

only faith

in the

true Jesus,

the living

Jesus,

the one who

took on

flesh,

came to

this earth,

is the

resurrected

one.

He's the

only one

who can

save you.

We need

to be putting

our faith

and our

trust in

him.

Amen.

Amen.

He's the

only one

that can

save us

from our

sin.

Before I

leave you

tonight,

I have a

few books

I'd like

to recommend.

Two of the

ones that I

find most

helpful myself

are written

by a

Baptist

preacher in

the States

by the

name of

James White.

He's written

letters to a

Mormon elder

and also

Is the

Mormon

my brother?

If you're

going to

get any

book on

their faith,

that would

be the one

I'd recommend.

Another one

that I find

very useful

is questions

to ask

your Mormon

friend.

This is

really just

to get

them to

critically

analyze

what they

do

believe.

Bizarrely,

I'd recommend

this.

It's the

Book of

Mormon.

I will

leave this

copy here.

You'll

notice it's

got a lot

of little

colored tags.

This is

literally

because I've

done a lot

of asking

the Book of

Mormon what

it teaches.

I shared

some topics

with you

tonight.

Well, I

shared two.

So I'll

leave this.

I hope you

find it a

useful resource

for the

church.

Because what

this teaches

is not

what the

Mormon

missions will

be teaching

you.

It's what

they're asking

you to pray

about, but

it's not

what they

believe.

So it

could just

be a door,

a foot in

the door,

to sharing

the gospel.

But I'd

like to

close with

that quote

that I

read at

the start.

If a

crooked stick

is before

you, you

need not

explain how

crooked it

is.

Lay a

straight one

down beside

it, and

the work

is well

done.

Preach

the truth,

and error

will stand

abashed in

its presence.

Amen.